Hi there, newbie to this excellent forum here, hoping someone can help me over here in the UK. I've recently bought a used Penn 114HL Senator2 (US made). It was in very good condition but as I do with all my reels I stripped it down anyway, gave it a thorough cleaning, and regreased it and built it back up. I've only today received the line I bought for it and so having spooled it up I tested the smoothness of the drag by putting it on a rod and tying the line to a door. Result was a jerky drag, not smooth like I'd expected from a big game type reel. Now I'm due to use this on a sharking trip on Friday so I know I'm cutting this fine, but I was hoping some of you Penn experts could assist?
As far as I am aware I have reassembled it exactly as it came apart, I take photos during the strip down, and also refer to the schematic, so I'm confident it's not that. The stand-out thing about the drag stack is that there is one washer too many (based on the schematic). The stack is made up as follows –
· 1 plastic or fibre washer under the main gear
· then the main gear itself
· and then 6 carbon fibre and 5 stainless steel washers in the following order – C,S,C,S,C,S,C,S,CC,S (note the doubled up carbon disc near the end)
· then the spring disk
· spacer sleeve
· thick tension spring
· star wheel
· finally the thin tension spring, handle, etc
Did the Senator2's come with the HT100 drag stack as standard or is this likely to have been an after-market addition? I wonder if the previous owner fitted an upgraded stack but added the 6th carbon washer to the main stack rather than switching it with the plastic washer under the main gear? The schematic that came with the reel only shows 5 carbon washers, which includes the one under the gear.
However, I have tried several different arrangements of the washers, including removing the 6th washer altogether, and none of them solve the 'jerky' problem. In fact, removing the 6th carbon washer made it considerably worse, and there seemed to be quite a large gap between the star drag wheel and the drag stack underneath. I even considered that it may be the amount of Cals Drag grease I used, so I've tried it with lots, and then tried it with just a smear, and then finally tonight I degreased the whole stack again and just soaked the washers in 3-in-1 oil, but that doesn't work either. The one thing I haven't yet tried is to remove the fibre washer and put the 6th carbon disc in its place, but having already tried a stack with 5 washers which was very sticky, i'm not convinced it'll be any better.
I'm at a bit of a loss! I'll try to post some pics if I can work out how to set up a flicker account or similar, but in the meantime has anyone got any ideas?
Thanks very much,
Mark.
Pull that CF washer and make sure you have a spring disc (18-114h) on top of the last metal washer in the drag stack, then the spacing sleeve, thick/heavy spring washer, star, thin/light spring washer, then handle. Keep the under gear washer too. It is possible you're overall drag stack height might need slight modification but try the arrangement listed on schematic first. After assembly, backing the star all the way off should result in near zero drag, while just starting to tighten the star should begin to apply some pressure to the stack (ideally). I'm not sure why you would have the extra CF washer in the stack. A pic of the stack in the gear to show overall height might be useful too. Good luck.
Thanks for the response mate, appreciated. I'll take a photo of the stack tonight and post it. The washer on the far left of the row of washers in the attached photo is the spring disk, so is already included. And I've already tried it by removing the 6th carbon washer (the stack then sits neatly to the top of the main gear) but it appeared even less smooth when I tried it. I just don't see what could be causing it, unless i've got a spring washer upside down perhaps, but I don't think so.
Great shot Greybadger! You got yourself a nice reel.
I don't remember ever seen a gasket on the foot on that frame, good one.
About your issue, that reel should feel silky smooth.
Everything looks good and I've done two carbon before with no issues, so this is not unusual to me.
I do want to mention that when I need to make up room on the stack, I always place the additional washers on top of the last keyed metal washer.
Anything above the last keyed metal washer does not produce drag, metal or carbon.
With what your showing, your easiest solution is to remove one of the carbon fiber washer from the two that are together and add another metal washer there. The cupped washer(Belleville) will sit right on top and yes, it will do just fine having three metal washers on top.
You will follow with a spacer and the thick spring washer that you're showing right under your handle.
The thinner tension spring, you could go with or without, I take mine out because I usually like my drag to start very soft and it helps.
Now, this isn't related to the issue, but if you wanted to make that reel really smooth, replace that washer for under the gear with a delrin washer and replace that last keyed metal washer that I mentioned with a derlin washer as well, you will be surprised on the extra smoothness.Is is ok if the delrin washer sits right under the Belleville.
Good luck!
Sal
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=44.0][url]http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=44.0 (http://[url)
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=208.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=208.0)
I am no Expert But it has to be smooth keep going till you get it right
Just remember every time you tear it down you will learn and Improve
Click on the above links and you will find all you need to Know
Hope this Helps
Good luck Jon
Thanks fellas, it's good to know at least that it should be much smoother than it is at present so i'll keep going. My previous experience of using old Penns is limited to Delmars and Long Beaches in the 80's. Some nice suggestions there Sal, hadn't realised they made washers in delrin, that's the material Mitchell used to make their side plates of for the 600's. Are they easy enough to source?
Think i'll first try swapping out the washer from under the main gear and changing it for the 6th carbon disc (although I think it'll be too large), a la the schematic. If that doesn't work then i'll put it back as it was and move the 6th carbon washer to above the last keyed metal washer as per Sals suggestion. And if that fails too, then I may consider buying a whole new drag set and starting from scratch, but that would seem a shame. May be worth considering the steel upgrades to gears and sleeve at the same time. There does seem to be quite a bit of play between the bridge plate and the brass gear sleeve at the moment, I know some is usual from my other reels, and maybe with the components just being so oversize compared to those in my smaller reels that it appears larger than it is.
Just had a close up look at the photo
I have just taken a very similar reel apart 114HLW
and the brass gear has a raised peice in the centre where the drag stack goes
I have asked Sal about it in another thread
It looks like your gear is the same?
(black ring in center of gear)
I think the first Cf washer needs a larger dia inner hole to clear this lump?
or delete the lump
Jon
I think that may be a trick of the light in the photo. There is indeed a black ring in the centre of the main gear, I suspect it's a harder alloy or perhaps steel to take extra wear, but it's not raised any higher than the brass gear around it. That's on mine at least.
Are you greasing your drags with drag grease? This will help smooth it out as well.
Hi, yep, as stated, I tried loads of Cals, then just a smear, and then none at all. Nothing's worked so far. Plan another evening of stripping it and rebuilding it tonight!
You will get it dialed in perfectly, Greybadger --
You seem very well organized -- have a good understanding of the mechanics -- and the dedication and passion to learn as you go, with help from many of the experts on this board.
Off the subject a little:
Isn't it nice to work on a reel that one can take apart as many times as necessary, and even after dozens of services, repairs, and inspections -- still goes back together as new?
The materials and metals in these old Penns make me really grateful.
Imagine breaking down a graphite reel dozens of times. Even with sleeve screw inserts, I have seen the tolerances start to degenerate just after a few disassembly operations. Even with some very high $$$ reels. This is true for conventionals, as well as spinners. Give me machined screws, quality metal and aluminum materials, and basically simple, proven design -- any day, over plastics and graphite.
I for one, would forgo a little lighter weight advantage, for a virtually bullet-proof old Penn.
Best,
Fred
Are you sure it is the drags?
Possibly could be an engagement issue between the spool and pinion gear, or pinion and main gear. Remember that the bridge screws that only have threads on the ends of em with a long bare shank are for the yoke springs. Could the yoke be binding up, offering incomplete mesh on the gears or anyway on the shaft?
Crackerman, that's an interesting thought, one I hadn't considered. I'll check it over but I have to say I'm pretty certain it's the drag.
Fred, couldn't agree more. I've recently stripped and rebuilt all my fathers reels from the late 60's, 70's and 80's - Mitchell 306, Daiwa 785, 7700 and 7500, Abu 9000 and 506, Penn 285 and 68, Mitchell 600, 602, 622, and 624 - all of them are a pleasure to work on, especially the all-metal fixed spools (or spinners as you guys call them). Like your office by the way, a much better outlook than mine!
Mark
well, I've drawn stumps. I've stripped it again, removed the plastic washer from underneath the main gear and replaced it with the rogue 6th carbon washer from out of the stack. So now it matches the schematic that came with it. Reassembled with Cals and tried it again - it's better, slightly, but still not perfectly smooth. It catches slightly, more so when I've tightened down on the drag. Just to remind myself and to make sure I wasn't imagining this, I put my lever drag Okuma on the rod and did the same exercise, result was a perfectly smooth release of line under pressure.
So not sure where to go with this. I've no spare washers of a correct size to try Sals suggestion of adding one as a spacer so will forgo that. And looking at it now anyway, it seems to 'look right' if you know what I mean. Perhaps the carbon discs aren't Penn HTs and in some way not suitable? But I doubt that, I've swapped out standard washers for non-standard Carbontex-type washers in all my Shimano fixed-spools and they work just fine.
I don't suppose it could be anything to do with the gear sleeve? I've been mulling over swapping it for a SS one, along with the obligatory SS gears, dog and yoke. But, if the drag ain't right in the first place it's seems false economy to shell out on further upgrades.
Pic attached of the drag stack and gear as it was when first removed from the reel. Not great I'm afraid, it was only intended for my purposes of remembering the order in which they came out.
Mark.
Anotherhing inlike to do that helps settle the drag stack down and makes it more consistent, is tighten the drag down2-4 lbs, tie the line off and go for a run across the yard. Tighten down more, do the same thing, and then at 3/4of drag or more. It puts heat into the stack and "breaks it in" making the carbon surfaces consisitent. It seems to make mine a bit smoother. And it will give you full range of drag, from zero to max, if set properly.
Was the face of the gear glassed over? Or was it a dull color? If shiny it may need to be scuffed a little bit to let the frictions do their jobs properly.
Yeah, it was quite shiny. That's a good idea about running down the garden with the line, the neighbours already think I'm a bit odd tying line to the door handle and playing it like a fish, can't get any worse.
And two final pics to show you why I'm so keen to get this reel working at it's tip-top best - it's a great looking reel!
Quote from: crackerman on September 03, 2014, 05:52:37 PM
Anotherhing inlike to do that helps settle the drag stack down and makes it more consistent, is tighten the drag down2-4 lbs, tie the line off and go for a run across the yard. Tighten down more, do the same thing, and then at 3/4of drag or more. It puts heat into the stack and "breaks it in" making the carbon surfaces consisitent. It seems to make mine a bit smoother. And it will give you full range of drag, from zero to max, if set properly.
Was the face of the gear glassed over? Or was it a dull color? If shiny it may need to be scuffed a little bit to let the frictions do their jobs properly.
x2, but no need to scuff any surfaces.
In fact, "lapping" or sanding flat the drag washers would be the next step. If they are not perfectly flat that can cause a jerky drag. Lapped drag plates (ie "blue printing") is an old trick perfected by Cal Sheets for both max drag and smooth drag performance.
But, as above, if you have liberal amounts of drag grease in the stack, cranking it down and pulling a good 10-20 yards out quickly will squeeze out excess grease which is usually the culprit.
I will give that a go then. Really appreciate the time all you guys put in to responding to this.
I would agree with John, the next thing is to check to make sure the drag washers are flat. What he calls lapping, engineers like me call planarization. It is actually pretty simple. Rub the washer on a fine flat file, measuring occasionally to make sure that your making it flat and not wedge shaped (changing the orientation of the washer to the file often helps to ensure this). When most all of the washer is hitting the file, then it is flat. Finally clean up the file marks with some fine steel wool or 3M polishing pads.
Yes, I'll try that next I think. I've lapped washers from other reels before, how successfully I don't know. I've just done the running down the garden thing with the line in hand whilst my wife holds the rod & reel. She's starting to look at me a bit odd too. The drag is definitely still sticky during and even after several runs. I also note that I'm only getting around 15lb max drag according to my electronic scales, more usually 11lb-13lb, with the drag cranked down pretty tight. Whilst this will be ample for UK fishing, I'm surprised it's not more given what I've read on this and other websites about the 114. However, first things first, I need to sort out the sticking problem. The alternative to lapping the washers I guess is to just buy a new set from Penn or Smoothdrag. :)
Hi Mark. I've just rebuilt my third 114 (all bargain basement ebay finds) for porbeagle shark fishing here in the U.K and yes, you're right, you should be getting more drag. I measured 25lb on mine last night.
I've fitted HT100 drag stacks from Mick Simons 01 386 552949 here in the U.K as replacements for my originals which were all 'old school' 3 disc drags, and so far with liberally applied 'Cal's', they've been smooth. Might be worth trying a stack from him.
You mentioned a bit of play between the sleeve and bridge. I've had similar on my 113s which i use for blue shark and used shims from a Mitchell 300 to reduce the play. You might want to do something similar on the 114 though i'm not sure it will have any effect on your drag issue.
Where are you sharking?
It's a long shot, but i'm towing my boat down to Falmouth on Friday for a week on the blue shark and then possibly running up to Ilfracombe for porgies (all weather permitting). I've got all my senators with me.
I think if you bought a new drag stack with new stainless washers and HT-100's. Your sticky drag would come to an end. They are less than 12 dollars a set from Scott's.
Hi Jeff,
That's interesting, I will give Mick a call tomorrow, does he have a company name, I may have dealt with him in the past? I think I may just bite the bullet and buy a new set from him if he also does the metal washers. Thanks very much for that; one of the issues in getting any upgrades for the Senator is that most come from the States and the postage charges really bump up the cost.
I don't understand why I'm getting so little drag pressure if you're managing 25lb. There seems to be more to this sticking drag than meets the eye...
Yes, I've been reading other posts on this forum about adding shims to the sleeve. I'm not sure what effect, if any, this amount of play would have on the reel.
I'm sharking out of Looe, Cornwall (my usual) also on Friday. I live near Bath but my folks are down that neck of the woods so I take Dad with me. Had a nice 85lb blue last month, still waiting to break the ton...Weather is looking good for this weekend if you're out by then!
Don't think Mick has a company name but here's a link anyway; http://www.penn-fishing.co.uk/news-new_penn_reels_service_centre-870.html
Mick's a reallly helpful chap but its best to actually phone him rather than email as things will be a bit speedier. Talk to him about your drag problem. I'm sure he'll be able to help in some way and the drag stack will be a whole lot cheaper than getting one from the states.
I don't think the sleeve play effects the reel's performance too much though those better qualified on here will know better than me. For me it just improved the feel of the reel and, apart from converting all my Senators to left hand wind, it's the only non-standard mod i've done. For U.K fishing, they seem to fish fine as standard( properly assembled and serviced as per advice on here),and the 6/0 will probably cope with anything we've got. I hope to get up to Scotland and give mine a work out on some Common skate soon.
On the smaller reels such as the Jigmaster, i have installed one of Alan's s/s sleeves and a 'power' handle on my favourite 501 leftie and it does 'feel' firmer. It probably in the mind but it's a sweet reel.
Yes, i hope to be out at the week-end and as much of next week as the winds allow.
Thanks Jeff, I'll call him tomorrow, looks like he's an agent for Penn in the UK so bodes well. I will probably end up also ordering the SS gear sleeve and probably the gears too from the US...just heard from my skipper to confirm Fridays booking and they had a 100lb-er today and one of the other boats took a 160lb-er, so they're certainly out there at the moment.
And an Oban skate would certainly give your reel a work-out!
If I go ahead and get all these extra bits for the 114, and assuming they actually solve my issues with it, I'll post back with some photos of the additions being fitted.
Many thanks to everyone on here to who's contributed.
Mark.
Hi Mark,
It is difficult to get through to Mick at times on the phone, as he is a very busy guy.
He has an answerphone so you can leave a message.
If I believe correctly, with the scaling down of Pure Fishing in the U.K., Mick has taken on the load, and he is a one man band, spares servicing the lot.
He is one of the nicest and most helpful guys out there, and his knowledge of Penn parts is incredible.
Mick
Quote from: Greybadger on September 03, 2014, 09:11:34 PM
Thanks Jeff, I'll call him tomorrow, looks like he's an agent for Penn in the UK so bodes well. I will probably end up also ordering the SS gear sleeve and probably the gears too from the US...just heard from my skipper to confirm Fridays booking and they had a 100lb-er today and one of the other boats took a 160lb-er, so they're certainly out there at the moment.
And an Oban skate would certainly give your reel a work-out!
If I go ahead and get all these extra bits for the 114, and assuming they actually solve my issues with it, I'll post back with some photos of the additions being fitted.
Many thanks to everyone on here to who's contributed.
Mark.
Good luck with it Mark, i'm sure you'll get it sorted.
160!!, wow, that's good news indeed. I had a 94" blue inside my Warrior 175 last year which was estimated at over the 'ton' but, things were a bit crowded to say the least, and i now prefer to t bar them off at the side of the boat.
Now I am worried about my gear it has the insert like you say but is definitly raised
Just getting Mine back together hoping not to have the same problems though :D
Good luck
Looks like you got the right guys Interested
Jon,
I can send you a gear to replace yours. Just the shipping. I am finally caught up on all my pay it forward's, except for one 114H gear set for Jason to Australia. I have several that are like new.
Just PM me your address and we can see what it will cost.
Daron
WOW thanks Daron
But I just reassembled (minus one bridge screw) tested and got 11kgs 24lbs with some in the bank
smooth as
I am pretty sure that it is a poorly manufactured gear
but it isn't affecting performance much
I ran a round file around the ID of thefirst carbon fiber washer
and last eared washer is about .5 inside gear so no clearance issues
I am getting a care package sent from the states soon.(need some JB hollow for the 80w)
Thanks for the Offer
Now we have to find out what is wrong with the GreyBadger's
Hi Guys,
Said I'd report back once I'd fitted the new drag stack. Jeff, I ordered the stack of carbon and steel washers from Mick at Penn Parts, thanks for the recommendation. Whilst at it I thought I'd go the whole hog and order some other parts from the US - stainless gear set, sleeve, dog and yoke. Fitted all this morning, and just tested it. It's certainly smoother than it was previously, but under tighter drag pressures it still sticks a bit. Guess it was the washers after all. Much improved though and maybe it just needs time to bed in, and in any case the pressure at which it starts to get slightly sticky is probably more than I will need for most fishing over here in the UK.
Testing the max, I tightened it as much as my little fingers would manage and I got 22lbs of drag, but wouldn't fancy having to loosen that star in a hurry during a fight! I guess as it beds in, I might start to get more.
So, overall, pleased with the improvement, it's now a more usable reel and I'm confident it'll handle anything I'm likely to come across in these waters.
Once again guys, many many thanks for all your input and helpful comments.
Mark.
Glad it improved for you Mark. If you follow my comment on the fourth posting on this thread, the one about delrin, it probably would have helped with sticky drags.
22 lbs isn't bad for that reel using stock drags. Sounds like you're happy with it, so it might be best to just let it go at this point.
During the diagnosis and elimination of possible causes -- you have come a long way.
However, that reel should be as smooth as warm butter.
Since you went through the expense of upgrading the internals -- the thing you might consider, is like Sal said -- replace the under gear washer with one made of Delrin. If you can't find one from Mick at Penn -- let is know so we can send you one
This will likely get you closer to 100%.
Do not grease the Delrin...
Did you grease the new drag stack CFs with "drag grease" -- either Cal's or Shimano? This procedure, along with the Delrin UG washer will work wonders -- better than new.
Let us know...
Best,
Fred
Hi Fred,
Yes, greased lightly using Cals. I didn't look into Delrin washers but will ask Mick if he has any. Thanks for the offer.
Mark
Hi Mark --
A suggestion -- when you install the Delrin UG washer, take out your drag stack and apply some more Cal's drag grease -- and we are assuming you are using a grease differently on the gears and internals -- like Penn or Yamaha Marine grease. The Marine part is important, because it means salt water resistant.
You do not need to overdo it -- but any extra will just be squeezed out of the stack anyway -- and what is left is exactly the right amount.
Best,
Fred
Fred, I use Cals on the drag washers and Yamalube on the gears. I've emailed Mick about a delrin washer but unless they're a standard Penn line I doubt he'll do it.
Hi Mark --
Delrin is not a Penn part -- but it should be -- maybe sometime in the future it will be standard.
More and more of the manufacturers are listening to Alan and others on this Board -- and some of the ideas are being implemented in new reels.
Carl Newell once told me in his plant -- fish it hard, make it break, analyze how to make it simpler and stronger, engineer the new idea, then go out and try to break it again. Carl never stopped trying to improve on his designs and ideas. His testing ground and the folks who tried out his angling innovations -- were basically the San Diego fleet.
PM your mailing address -- and we will get a couple of washers off to you at no charge.
Best,
Fred
Fred
The 4-60 Thrust Washers that Scott's sells is Delrin. Dawn sells the same washer with the same part # as Scott's. NN sent me a few pieces of Delrin & all are the same material. So Penn might be stocking the washers.
Mike
Fred,
Thank you very much for your kind offer. I've emailed you my address but suggest you wait for a day or so until i've heard back from Mick.
Mark
Mark,
Keep us posted. I've just returned from a,shark trip and my 4/0s got a bit of a workout and displayed fairly smooth drag operation but if the delrin washers are available from Mick,i'd be up for some replacements on my Senators..............My 6/0 porbeagle reels would probably benefit even more.
Jeff, i've taken Fred up on his kind offer to send me some Delrin. Mick doesn't sell delrin washers but is trying to find a suitable Teflon equivalent that will fit under the main gear. However, it's not a stock part so he's having to mill out one from another reel, if he finds one of a similar size.
Fred/Sal, thanks so much guys for sending me those delrin washers, they arrived today. I've fitted one under the main gear and reassembled it. Have to say, at the moment I'm not noticing much difference, but that may be that it still needs some use to bed in the new washers completely. I may have a go at putting one on the top of the stack as well and see what that does. Cheers again.
Mark.
Hi Mark --
You should notice the difference using the Delrin -- over time, and in actual fishing.
One big advantage is that they tend not to compress, break down, or become flattened out under actual long term usage. They remain smooth and consistent-- that is what you are looking for.
Many thanks to Sal!
Best,
Fred
Quote from: Greybadger on September 17, 2014, 08:04:33 AM
Jeff, i've taken Fred up on his kind offer to send me some Delrin. Mick doesn't sell delrin washers but is trying to find a suitable Teflon equivalent that will fit under the main gear. However, it's not a stock part so he's having to mill out one from another reel, if he finds one of a similar size.
Thanks for keeping us posted Mark.In that case as Mick doesn't stock them, I think I'll contact Dawn at get some delrins for my 4/0s and 6/0s. I love an excuse to tear those babies down.LOL
Mark I think you have to keep looking for the problem
I have done two of these reels now and they are super smooth
Washers?