Hi All,
We are in the midst of our annual surf International – 3 days of Namibia against South Africa, and we have been getting a few reels in for emergency service overnight – so that anglers can fish the next day.
Looking at the reels, they mostly seem newish, but the overriding point of most of them has been bearing failures – not total failures, but certainly rough, to failing. I know that they have obviously been practicing, and the wading chest deep doesn't help the longevity of bearings in our waters, but just a lot of bearing failures none the less.
This got me thinking about the reels and the original designer's intent for the reels and how they specify the spool bearings, and whether our surf casting use is actually way beyond the original engineer's parameters – hence the failure of the bearings.
Sometime ago, I did a calculation to justify high precision bearings in surf casting reels, and how the smaller reels have an even worse time of the spin speeds on the bearings. But now, how this relates to the speeds we are putting on what are basically quite robust boat fishing reels is the quandary.
If for maximum spool speed, the designer assumed that a Wahoo or Sailfish might hit a reel in very low drag – this would equate to about the fastest 'normal' use the reel would be subjected. So, 60km/hr for a sailfish through the water against a near free spool – would on a Trinidad 20 or similar style reel equate to 1000 metres per minute of line removal, or 17 metres per second. Given the 60mm spool diameter on the reel, this would equate to 188mm of line per spool revolution, doing the maths, this equates to about 5400rpm of the reel spool at maximum. So, a bearing spec of 10,000 rpm would give a huge safety margin – something like ABEC 3.
Now take the same reel and use it in a 150 metre surf cast, and the amount of line out to achieve that 5 second cast is about 220 metres, or 44 metres per second, same 188mm per revolution gives an average spool speed for the cast of about 14,500rpm - 3 times faster than the Sailfish screaming off! And that spool speed is an average – so potentially at maximum is likely to be a third faster – say nearly 20,000rpm.
I did the same calculation for a Penn 525 size reel with a 40mm diameter spool doing the 150 metre cast, and the numbers went through the roof, 21,600rpm of the average, and say nearly 29,000rpm for a maximum!
It becomes obvious now that we look at the actual speeds we are putting these reels through, and why we are getting bearing failure, when we change the usage from the designers potential maximum conditions to something that ordinarily would seem to be quite mundane as surf casting, where we rarely get to put the reels under serious drag duress, but the matter of casting is easily overlooked.
Any thoughts or wisdom welcomed.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Aloha Jeri, this topic is way over my pay grade.
Is it just plain RPM's that the factor or could the amount of weight that is being casted be a factor also? How about the type of lubrication also be part of the equation?
I would also guess that the shaft and the bearings are not spinning in a 1:1 ratio. It could be that the shaft is spinning faster than the bearings at times.
Jeri,
While I don't doubt your math, I don't think that RPM alone could cause failure. ABEC-1 bearings, when lubricated with oil, are rated to a temporary RPM of 38,000. So as I said, I don't think RPM could do it alone. What I believe is happening is that foreign material is coming into suspension with the bearing lube, most likely from the salt water. At the high RPMs you've indicated I feel the contaminates could damage the surface of the races and balls promoting roughness and failure. The fix for this would be a ridiculous amount of maintenance or using bearings made of stronger material. The majority of requirements determined by the Annular Bearing Engineering Committee are easily measured for verification, things like run-out and flatness of surfaces. Unfortunately, the issue I think you are seeing can't be identified by the ABEC standard. Of course, you may not be able to source stronger bearings that meet the smoothness standard for your application at a reasonable price point.
I don't know if you follow American drag racing, but the NHRA pros basically rebuild there engines after every quarter mile pass for what is probably similar issues to what your clients are seeing. It sounds like your pros are getting to a level where their own pit crew would not be a bad idea or they invest in very expensive bearings.
Just my $0.02.
Ron
This is a good reason to use plain bearings (bushings).
I do not think the failure is from rpm.
ABEC standard bearings are greatly underrated as far as RPM limits.
A good way to think of this is the example of a car wheel bearing.
Given that the diameter of a given tire is 100" and that a measured mile is 5280'
At 60 MPH the revolutions of a wheel bearing is 37,980 RPM.( I think I did the math correctly.)
At 100 mph the RPM are close to 64,000!
Now sustained speeds (3-4 hours) in a car while driving across Nevada would just eat wheel bearings if RPM was a problem.
I believe the failures are caused by water borne sand getting into the bearings.
I know when we prep our race cars, or even the Top Karts we are religious about contaminates down to the type of rags we use .
I have seen a front wheel bearing fail during an endurance race from what we later discovered was lint from a shop rag.
Just imagine what sand will do!
My 2 cts......
I'm thinking if these guys are needing ultra fast,long cast,super speed bearings that reel would just explode into a birds nest in my hands if I were to look at it to hard. I've been known to get a professional overrun from time to time ::) ;D
Some high quality bushings might do the trick :-\.
The issue with fine finish, custom sized cintered bronze bushings is they cost as much or more than the best bearings and I don't think the service interval would be reduced. If they hold up and don't reduce casting distance they may be cost effective in the long run. I know I prefer them from the beach but I'm normally casting about 80 yards or so.
Ron
Hi guys,
Thanks for the comments, it all sounds like pretty much confirming my own thoughts. Contamination in the bearings and very poor maintenance.
I think that bearing/shaft speed is a factor, as this only speeds up the issues of the contaminants in the bearing oils. High speed grinding paste, instead of low speed grinding paste.
The biggest issue is obviously very poor maintenance – my own regime is much stricter, but then I have the time and the incentive to look after my gear. What may have made me more observant about the whole recent issue, is that all 60 of the anglers present are fishing at International level, and I would have (wrongly perhaps) thought that they would have serviced their equipment to a serious level 'before' the event. So, the failure level is just a focussing factor – high pressure fishing, and poor maintenance.
Personally, I have been fishing with an Avet MXL for the last 3 years, and only replaced 1 set of bearings to date, and the Avets are notorious for having a weakness in this department. This is where I feel the issue is more focussed on an education program towards the anglers.
Ron – I used to race motor bikes – tarmac circuit races, we used to strip the engines after most races. I personally know the importance of looking after components in extreme usage situations.
Mitch – I scare myself some days with the level of 'professional overwinds' that I can manage – the English expression is a 'crow's nest', some of mine are a 'crow's palace'!! But, the fact is that we are casting large baits to oceanic water with a strong current, and need to get to the fish and sharks. Hence the need to develop rods and reels to achieve this, then develop it to scary proportions. Some of the rods that we are currently building, are being tested out at over 200 metres with 6oz sinkers + bait! A scary, young man's game, and the need for very thick skin on your thumb!
Keta & Alto Mare – It is a thought that has been bouncing around in my head for a while, but there is also the issue of bushing wear – which might well be lower than with caged bearings. However, there needs to be a compatibility between the spool shaft (hardness) and the bushing. If the bush is too hard, then the shaft is going to wear badly with all the contaminated lubricant – high speed grinding.
We have seen some results of this with folks using some of the early Penn and ABU reels that had bushes – either the shaft gets 'eaten' or the bush. Then real problems getting replacements.
I think that at the end of the day, it is going to be a case of just buying heaps of shielded stainless steel bearings and just keep replacing them as they become basically a 'consumable component'.
Thanks for the insights.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
I wonder if something as these would be of some use for your application
http://www.mcmaster.com/#bronze-sleeve-bearings/=uvif1o
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/1142/=uvhzg7
Someone should come up with a different design on the bearings, I'm thinking the speed is causing the oil to pull away from the balls creating dry pockets. Maybe coming up with the outer racer having oil impregnated in the material itself might help.
Or maybe I should just keep my mouth shot. ;D
Sal
I would love to see video of a 150 mtr cast or longer with 6 and bait Jeri.
Totally improbable for me to achieve this as I can barely cast past my feet.
If you have any youtube links please post them.
Hi guys,
I think ultimately the conditions we are fishing in require a more frequent maintenance schedule. Bushings might in the long term offer a solution, but compatibility between shaft material and bush needs to be attended – to avoid biased wear issues. Maybe a tight fit 'semi-disposable' or soft sleeve over the shaft, then a bush in the bearing housing. Then should wear take place the sleeve on the shaft is simply replaced.
Until then, it will be cheaper bearings – they make a great warning sound when they fail which serves as a reminder to the angler that doesn't maintain the reel. KISS – the ultimate engineering logo!
Casting videos abound on the net – there are literally thousands. Most are using just sinkers over grass, and the distances make you have nightmares. The best instructional book that I have found is John Holden's Long Distance Casting II. It is a CD-Rom of a pdf with short instructional video clips to demonstrate what he is writing about – an exceptional book, well worth the money – there is more wisdom in the words, as the videos are often posted, but the miss out on the context of what he is teaching. His best advice is not to set yourself too high a standard for your early development – 'walk before you try to run'.
The other factor is the difference between the rods available – surf spinning in the USA is different to full on surf casting with the intention of using bait – and as such the rod blanks are seriously different, especially when you get towards launching some of the baits and sinker combinations we use for sharks off the beach. Rods that could almost double as telegraph poles, some of those we have tested to the point of 90 degree bend, and have a test curve of nearly 20kgs! That said more usually we are using rods with about 8kg test curve to get good results. Length is also a significantly contributory factor, we almost use 14' exclusively, while in the US 12' is typical of a 'long' rod.
It is all application and practice – just like fly fishing – remember back to the first time you tried that?
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Quote from: theswimmer on December 03, 2014, 08:57:00 PM
I do not think the failure is from rpm.
ABEC standard bearings are greatly underrated as far as RPM limits.
A good way to think of this is the example of a car wheel bearing.
Given that the diameter of a given tire is 100" and that a measured mile is 5280'
At 60 MPH the revolutions of a wheel bearing is 37,980 RPM.( I think I did the math correctly.)
At 100 mph the RPM are close to 64,000!
Now sustained speeds (3-4 hours) in a car while driving across Nevada would just eat wheel bearings if RPM was a problem.
I believe the failures are caused by water borne sand getting into the bearings.
I know when we prep our race cars, or even the Top Karts we are religious about contaminates down to the type of rags we use .
I have seen a front wheel bearing fail during an endurance race from what we later discovered was lint from a shop rag.
Just imagine what sand will do!
My 2 cts......
5280' X 12" = 63,360". If your tire has a circumference of 100" (32" diameter) it'll take 634 rotations (634 x 100 = 63400) to go a mile. That's 634 rpm at 60 mph.
Jeri,
very interesting topic. I think the main problem is maintenance. If you get a good source of bearings they are not so expensive to replace and you never have the problem of a shaft wearing, so the bearing is relatively easy and cheap to replace. My concern with a bushing is that salt and sand get in in any case and grind the shaft away. There are many people that simply fish their tackle into the ground. Some people simply replace their reels every 2nd season or so. And the ting is a few drops of oil and blobs of grease can make them last for years, even budget reels.
Cheers,
Leon
Jeri,
As you mentioned; you use an Avet reel with good maintenance. I like some of the others who've commented used to drag race and Ive served on the pit crew for a funny car and "maintenance" is the key to success. You mentioned that the reels youve been servicing for the tournament have been newish (probably without a pre-service). Since your known by the contestants maybe you should set up a tent/canopy for reel servicing adjacent/nearby the tournament where someone (more than one person) from your shop does "tear-downs" on reels for the contestants; similar to drag racers except for whoever wants servicing.
This pit crew reel servicing would prove educational for the contestants and provide your shop with valuable "field data" on the issues the contestants are having. Besides providing a service to the contestants; its just "good business".
Leo
Hi guys,
Leon
The points that I perhaps didn't get across, was that these guys are at the top of the 'game', and still not technically minded enough to know that there is a need for maintenance – especially before the top annual international competition in the region. Equipment failure is a personal failure, and reflects badly on that angler, especially when you are representing your country.
Time spent changing a reel on a rod is lost fishing time in a competition, and on the first day that was crucial, as they landed over 2900kgs of sharks on that day – so any time any angler in a team didn't have bait in the water was having a negative effect on their team. Especially as the next 2 days of the event were relatively poor, with the effect that the final places were determined on the first day, the next days were just hold your lead, with relatively much lower catches.
The point you make about using cheaper bearings as a consumable product is in part valid, as they only bring a reel to be sorted when it fails. The point I was making, is that cheaper low spec bearings have no real place at top end competition level, as these folks are the ones stretching the boundaries to what we achieve in casting distance.
Leo
In Namibia we have the second lowest population density in the world, only Mongolia has a lower density. On the coast of Namibia we have the highest population density in the world of 'fishing experts' – or that is the way it seems at times.
I fully appreciate the drag car reference – I raced bikes at the then pinnacle of amateur level – the Isle of Man, and to have equipment failure would have at that time been a waste of 3 months of my life – 10 weeks preparation and 2 weeks on the Island. Getting that mentality across to some folks is very difficult.
I think at the end of the day, the fact that we stayed open well after hours each day to accommodate all the repairs necessary was enough commitment to helping the uniformed. Which reflects my experience when I fishing in couple of 'B' team internationals – as the guys in my team just gave me their reels at the end of each day to be cleaned and quick serviced. At the end of our last day of practice I had more than 12 reels to service, just to make sure all our team went to the first day with equipment that wouldn't fail.
I think that perhaps I am looking for a 'fix' that may well need more medical or pharmaceutical attributes??? ;-) Or perhaps I shouldn't be so technically orientated, and seek to improve?? – But, then that is the curse of all engineers, always looking to improve and develop – even the humble mousetrap.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Quote from: Jeri on December 11, 2014, 06:15:28 AM
Hi guys,
Leon
The points that I perhaps didn't get across, was that these guys are at the top of the 'game', and still not technically minded enough to know that there is a need for maintenance – especially before the top annual international competition in the region. Equipment failure is a personal failure, and reflects badly on that angler, especially when you are representing your country.
Time spent changing a reel on a rod is lost fishing time in a competition, and on the first day that was crucial, as they landed over 2900kgs of sharks on that day – so any time any angler in a team didn't have bait in the water was having a negative effect on their team. Especially as the next 2 days of the event were relatively poor, with the effect that the final places were determined on the first day, the next days were just hold your lead, with relatively much lower catches.
The point you make about using cheaper bearings as a consumable product is in part valid, as they only bring a reel to be sorted when it fails. The point I was making, is that cheaper low spec bearings have no real place at top end competition level, as these folks are the ones stretching the boundaries to what we achieve in casting distance.
Leo
In Namibia we have the second lowest population density in the world, only Mongolia has a lower density. On the coast of Namibia we have the highest population density in the world of 'fishing experts' – or that is the way it seems at times.
I fully appreciate the drag car reference – I raced bikes at the then pinnacle of amateur level – the Isle of Man, and to have equipment failure would have at that time been a waste of 3 months of my life – 10 weeks preparation and 2 weeks on the Island. Getting that mentality across to some folks is very difficult.
I think at the end of the day, the fact that we stayed open well after hours each day to accommodate all the repairs necessary was enough commitment to helping the uniformed. Which reflects my experience when I fishing in couple of 'B' team internationals – as the guys in my team just gave me their reels at the end of each day to be cleaned and quick serviced. At the end of our last day of practice I had more than 12 reels to service, just to make sure all our team went to the first day with equipment that wouldn't fail.
I think that perhaps I am looking for a 'fix' that may well need more medical or pharmaceutical attributes??? ;-) Or perhaps I shouldn't be so technically orientated, and seek to improve?? – But, then that is the curse of all engineers, always looking to improve and develop – even the humble mousetrap.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Jeri,
there are a lot of people that think that opening a reel is like working on a nuclear reactor. I have met people who will happily take apart a carburetor but too scared to touch a reel. There are also serious amounts of nonsense talk that does the rounds about reel repair, as you say, there is a very high density of world leading experts at times along most coasts, not only Namibia! The funny thing is that there are many top league anglers that don't service their own reels, not even oil the bearings. Not sure why this is the case. Laziness or urban myths that it is too difficult to do? And a lot of shops that offer reel service do a terrible job and half the time they don't even know what they are talking about. They don't even do the basics of greasing screws. I bought a 2nd hand Saltist 30 which looked great on the outside and was serviced by one of the biggest tackle shops in South Africa who happens to be Daiwa agent as well. Well, I luckily got the reel in time, I just got the side cover screws out, they were nearly stuck from corrosion.
I prefer open bearings though for the spool bearings, I would rather have the salt water be able to run out than stay in a closed bearing. Its easy to put a drop of oil in and you know there is no salty depostis stuck under the seal.
Cheers,
Leon