Carbon Fiber
Teflon - PTFE
Delrin - Acetal
UHMW (also referred as UHMWPE) - Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene
So, there has been a lot of discussion between the use Carbon Fiber versus Teflon verses Delrin.
The reason why I use Carbon Fiber versus the fiber washer is to 1) create a smoother drag surface and 2) to create a drag surface where there was no drag washer there before.
Many reel manufactures have used Teflon in this area as well. In fact, Teflon is still used by many reel manufacturers today. Why? Because it has a low coefficient of friction.
Now comes Delrin. Delrin is commonly used as a bearing material, is hard and is wear resistant. It has a slightly higher coefficient of friction than Teflon.
And UHMW. Higher wear resistant then Delrin and about the same coefficient of friction as Teflon
So my question is why has many of us here prefer to use Delrin versus Teflon, and not why consider UHMW? It is apparent that the use of these materials is to create a very low friction area so that the undergear washer is treated as a bearing; and therefore, not relying on the surface as a drag surface such as myself.
I'm trying to wrap my head around this one.
Thank you.
Bryan
The smoothest drags in my conventionals is the Newell 4 stack system with your 5+1 which in my case is 6 CFs including the one under the gear which is a full size CF.
The key is to have grip and slippage combined. What would happen if I put a delrin under the gear on this arrangement? If what I have works nice then why mess with it is another question? May try it one day when I don't have anything else to do.
Dwight
Delrin has a higher compressive strength that PTFE or UHMW.
http://www.technicalproductsinc.com/teflon_specs.html (http://www.technicalproductsinc.com/teflon_specs.html)
http://www.technicalproductsinc.com/delrin_specs.html
(http://www.technicalproductsinc.com/delrin_specs.html)
Delron is king.
Agree with Lee and other folks.
1. The main gear has to remain flat. That means low compression (look for compression strength)
2. The material has to be hard enough to not get mangled by the dogs ( look for Rockwell hardness rating)
3. The material has to have sufficient operating temp range ( both low and high)
4. The material must be slippery (coefficient of friction)
5. Material must be salt water and grease/oil resistant.
Acetal (brand name Delrin) does pretty good In all these categories. The high temp range is a bit on the low side. Once it gets too hot, it will start to get soft. I think the max op temp for delrin is around 200 degrees F, but the softening really starts to kick in more around 250(could be wrong, this from memory). There are different suppliers and different versions, so it is good to look at the specs for your supplier. The jury is still out on delrin, but I think the best test is to do an extended run under high drag to get the temp up.
Carbon fiber drag washers are better for temp range and will have the same friction as the drag stack, but suffer in compression and hardness. So we know fiber under gear washers will shred on some reels under heavy load. But they have been used for a while now on many reels with satisfied customers. Sometimes the devil you know...
There are lots of other plastics out there that could be considered, but most are not as hard as delrin. The ones that are hard are usually not slippery enough. I think I found a couple that were interesting but he price is much higher than delrin.
Btw. I have fly reels with delrin or rulon drags that have caught tons of fish. The rulon drag reel has never had a drag service. It is my small tuna reel and it puts the hurt on the skipjacks.
Bryan: let me know if you need any more delrins. I would be happy to cut some on the laser for you.
On the McMaster.com site there are 3 types of delrin. Regular, pfte filled and glass filled. Which would be best for use as a thrust washer?
Quote from: fsrmn on December 13, 2014, 06:41:58 AM
On the McMaster.com site there are 3 types of delrin. Regular, pfte filled and glass filled. Which would be best for use as a thrust washer?
I would say regular, because the other types do not have very good compression strength
Quote from: jurelometer on December 13, 2014, 06:06:27 AM
Agree with Lee and other folks.
Carbon fiber drag washers are better for temp range and will have the same friction as the drag stack, but suffer in compression and hardness. So we know fiber under gear washers will shred on some reels under heavy load. But they have been used for a while now on many reels with satisfied customers. Sometimes the devil you know...
Hello Dave, yes, Carbon Fiber washers have been doing great and I sure don't have any complains.
I believe we're still missing the point here, the drag stack, along with the main gear should rotate on something as smooth and durable as possible, that's how you would get the smoothest drags.
The washer under the gear should always have a different function than the washers in the gear, that one should be as smooth as possible and the other creating friction.
I believe Penn is starting to use the Delrin on their reels, but I might be wrong. If they are, we wouldn't need to worry about heat or anything else, lots of engineers there. ;).
On another note, When you requested the dimensions, I thought you were cutting those for everyone here, at a charge of course. I didn't know that those were only for Bryan...he doesn't believe in them anyway, so I'm confused :-\. If he wanted to give it a go, he would only need one or two
Take care my friend.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 13, 2014, 11:32:24 AM
.......On another note, When you requested the dimensions, I thought you were cutting those for everyone here, at a charge of course.
I have the drawings and will give them to anyone that wants to have them cut and make them available at a reasonable price.
Hi guys,
Perhaps a leaf out of Finnor's manual – in the OFC and Lethal (multipliers) models they recess the underside of the main gear, and drop a full shielded roller bearing in there.
Complies with all the requirements – though perhaps might be a little more costly to produce, but it works great. 4 years of seeing these reels being used and abused on our coast, and never seen a failure on that bearing. Not that we are pulling anything that would generate serious heat – the odd fast swimming shark, but for a protracted time, and in very poor maintenance cycles – the bearing has proved no problem.
Just a thought???
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.
As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/medium_386_13_12_14_10_59_40.jpeg)
These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves. The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers. The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster).
The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal.
They will still compress but will not get into the ratchet.
Quote from: Jeri on December 13, 2014, 02:54:00 PM
Hi guys,
Perhaps a leaf out of Finnor's manual – in the OFC and Lethal (multipliers) models they recess the underside of the main gear, and drop a full shielded roller bearing in there.
Complies with all the requirements – though perhaps might be a little more costly to produce, but it works great. 4 years of seeing these reels being used and abused on our coast, and never seen a failure on that bearing. Not that we are pulling anything that would generate serious heat – the odd fast swimming shark, but for a protracted time, and in very poor maintenance cycles – the bearing has proved no problem.
Just a thought???
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Hello Jeri. I've tried these:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/007-16.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/007-16.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/008-18.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/008-18.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/010-14.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/010-14.jpg.html)
If the heat is not a problem, I would rather have a Delrin washer there.
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 13, 2014, 06:02:04 PM
So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.
As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/medium_386_13_12_14_10_59_40.jpeg)
These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves. The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers. The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster).
The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal.
Those look nice Bryan, a nice platform for a Delrin washer ;).
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 13, 2014, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on December 13, 2014, 06:06:27 AM
Agree with Lee and other folks.
Carbon fiber drag washers are better for temp range and will have the same friction as the drag stack, but suffer in compression and hardness. So we know fiber under gear washers will shred on some reels under heavy load. But they have been used for a while now on many reels with satisfied customers. Sometimes the devil you know...
Hello Dave, yes, Carbon Fiber washers have been doing great and I sure don't have any complains.
I believe we're still missing the point here, the drag stack, along with the main gear should rotate on something as smooth and durable as possible, that's how you would get the smoothest drags.
The washer under the gear should always have a different function than the washers in the gear, that one should be as smooth as possible and the other creating friction.
I believe Penn is starting to use the Delrin on their reels, but I might be wrong. If they are, we wouldn't need to worry about heat or anything else, lots of engineers there. ;).
On another note, When you requested the dimensions, I thought you were cutting those for everyone here, at a charge of course. I didn't know that those were only for Bryan...he doesn't believe in them anyway, so I'm confused :-\. If he wanted to give it a go, he would only need one or two
Take care my friend.
Sal
Hi Sal,
I agree with your main point. The properties I listed are those needed for a thrust bearing under a drag/clutch. I think that acting as a supplemental drag surface is fine if it does not get in the way of its primary purpose.
The delrin will be the component in the drag system with the lowest max temp. Something to keep an eye on, but not a deal breaker.
I wanted to try delrin for myself. I cut a bunch of extras at the same time, and sent some to several members who have wanted to try. Didn't charge anyone. Just paying back.
Thanks for the measurements.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 13, 2014, 06:30:51 PM
I wanted to try delrin for myself. I cut a bunch of extras at the same time, and sent some to several members who have wanted to try. Didn't charge anyone. Just paying back.
Thanks for the measurements.
You're a good man Dave, I've enjoyed our conversations. Thanks for your knowledge ;)
Jeri, I forgot the specs on the needle bearing
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5909K31
Sal
I need to place the reel on a fish fighting machine and see what the effects are on different systems. Who has access to one? I think they are made in France.
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 13, 2014, 06:02:04 PM
So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.
As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/medium_386_13_12_14_10_59_40.jpeg)
These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves. The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers. The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster).
The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal.
Copying the old Newell 4 stack is a good move. They work great when you turn it into a 6 stack and smooth. Can always use delrin on top to get it a tad smoother.
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 13, 2014, 07:06:02 PM
I need to place the reel on a fish fighting machine and see what the effects are on different systems. Who has access to one? I think they are made in France.
A fish fighting machine? That sounds pretty cool. What kinda speed, and pressures can this baby produce? Any pics of one?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/medium_386_21_08_14_7_58_38_11393100.jpeg)
They are 4 of them at them at the Okuma Museum in Taiwan. So much fun. You pick the fish and the fight is different between fishes. Very cool.
Thanks to Dave for letting send me a few of those 113h Delrin washers... can't wait to test them in the spring time.
Sal, Thank you for the delrin selection you've supplied me with. When I test Dave's custom star out with those delrin washers I will be sure to report back.
Tell you the truth, I can't wait to test out so many new parts that I can barely contain myself... Black Pearl's gears, Bryan's washer kits, Dave and Sal's washers, Adam and Dave's drag stars, etc.
The fishing I do doesn't push these reels to the max, but I will be able to test function and smoothness. Ya never know, I might be able to catch that Thresher that I've been hunting, so I can really see what these custom parts are made of.
To each his own... carbon fiber or delrin, we still have far superior upgrades than most guys that just fish Penn reels out of the box.
Bryan, one of those fish fighting machines would keep warmed up all winter long. I'd never get off one of those things... until I couldn't feel my arms at least. ;)
Thanks
Dom
Quote from: Newell Nut on December 12, 2014, 08:20:33 PM
Bryan
The smoothest drags in my conventionals is the Newell 4 stack system with your 5+1 which in my case is 6 CFs including the one under the gear which is a full size CF.
The key is to have grip and slippage combined. What would happen if I put a delrin under the gear on this arrangement? If what I have works nice then why mess with it is another question? May try it one day when I don't have anything else to do.
Dwight
Dwight how long have you been fishing with cf under the gear and how often. I to love the way cf feels,but after half season of fishing the cf falls apart and causes problems.
I have still been using CF under the gear on smaller reels, through I wonder if Teflon would be better. The crashed CF seems smooth at lower drag settings. I just put top and bottom Delron's in my 4-6/0s. Just got 2 more BP gear sets, and I have all the goodies for a 9/0 and a 501. Guess I need a 501. I might try the slippery Teflon washer in the 501, with a top Delron and spacing sleeve, along with Brian's stack, and the other SS goodies. The 9/0 is getting top and bottom Delron's, new gear set, frame, handle, etc, but I wish it had a Top hat made out of Delron. CF washers are definately smooth under smaller gears, I like the Delron at heavier drag settings and on bigger reels though. Just my opinion, to each his own. Needle bearing/thrust washers and custom cut gears might be nice on some of the smaller reels.
Quote from: Keta on December 13, 2014, 06:15:05 PM
They will still compress but will not get into the ratchet.
Just as a question. With the washer under the main gear like newell nut has setup, wouldnt the cf washer compress at the same rate as the cf washes in the stack or is it more due to the pressure of the main gear.
The PSI will be the same.
those fishing machines are very good,
we have one in perth
just recently i asked the owner could i bring my rod and reel over
and test it out."they dont work like that,they are programed to the fish species",
i had a go at a marlin and i turned a dirty shade of grey.
no long strokes,short strokes are the go.
ps.
the one in perth is a scatri simfish.
Quote from: wallacewt on December 14, 2014, 04:07:11 AM
those fishing machines are very good,
we have one in perth
just recently i asked the owner could i bring my rod and reel over
and test it out."they dont work like that,they are programed to the fish species",
i had a go at a marlin and i turned a dirty shade of grey.
no long strokes,short strokes are the go.
Quick short pumps, and keep the line tight.
Quote from: broschro on December 14, 2014, 03:21:04 AM
Quote from: Newell Nut on December 12, 2014, 08:20:33 PM
Bryan
The smoothest drags in my conventionals is the Newell 4 stack system with your 5+1 which in my case is 6 CFs including the one under the gear which is a full size CF.
The key is to have grip and slippage combined. What would happen if I put a delrin under the gear on this arrangement? If what I have works nice then why mess with it is another question? May try it one day when I don't have anything else to do.
Dwight
Dwight how long have you been fishing with cf under the gear and how often. I to love the way cf feels,but after half season of fishing the cf falls apart and causes problems.
I fished 60 trips and caught a lot of nice fish without a failure. Quite of few of my reels and built to duplicate the old Newell 4 stack with a SS washer epoxied to the sprocket. I have ordered some .020" Delrin which is the thickness of these SS washers and I plan to test a thin delrin with a .5mm CF under the gear. This will eliminate any chewed up CF that some of you may have experienced or think you may experience. So this way you get some grip and some slick. Will be interesting for sure.
One thing that I have noticed on sprockets is that some of them have a little sharp edge on them and when I find one I just smooth it with a little mini file. Those little mini files are on $10 a set at Ace hardware and very handy when working on reels.
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 13, 2014, 06:02:04 PM
So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.
As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/medium_386_13_12_14_10_59_40.jpeg)
These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves. The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers. The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster).
The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal.
Are the flanges an integral, machined part of the sleeve? If so, that is how I always thought they should be. Considered asking if someone could make some.
I believe we need these handle screws in stainless steel, Alan Chui just doesn't have the time right now, anyone willing to step up to the plate?
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/016-11.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/016-11.jpg.html)
I'm noticing the threads on the brass screw don't hold up on the stainless sleeve ander lots of stress. I know my tests are hard on reels, but it would still be nice to get these in Stainless.
I've mentioned to Alan C. that since he's making the new bridge, maybe a smooth bridge post with a c-clip to hold the sleeve would be nice, we would then need a ss cap nut, a much better choice. Alan wants to keep the design as close as possible as the original, I don't really blame him.
I know there are a few good machinists on this site that I know of, so if you want to check into this, on trying to get these stainless handle screws for us that would be great, maybe even extend the threads 1mm on all.
Sal
Quote from: VW on December 15, 2014, 08:57:33 AM
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 13, 2014, 06:02:04 PM
So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.
As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/medium_386_13_12_14_10_59_40.jpeg)
These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves. The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers. The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster).
The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal.
Are the flanges an integral, machined part of the sleeve? If so, that is how I always thought they should be. Considered asking if someone could make some.
The flanges are integral part of the gear sleeved by machining. Funny, we have talked about this for years, and only until Newell Nut did his Newells, we though, why not on Penn's So here it is.
I second Lee's observation of a need for SS handle screws. I have had a few older, fatigued stock screws fail on the 114h stainless gear sleeves as well. A gear sleeve attached with a C clip also seems like a good idea as well, where appropriate.
So does this mean Alan has the gear sleeves back in Stock :)
Alan has the SS gear sleeves and my think metal washers in stock. I'm not sure if he has the under-gear Carbontex washers in stock though. If he doesn't have the undergear washers, I can run some over to him for immediate shipment.
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 15, 2014, 06:11:49 PM
The flanges are integral part of the gear sleeved by machining. Funny, we have talked about this for years, and only until Newell Nut did his Newells, we though, why not on Penn's So here it is.
Great! Now I get to spend more money.
Any other sizes available, or planned (113H, 114H)? Will Scott's have them?
The plan is to create them in the 113h and 114h.
A member gave me some delrin washers to test.
I will install them in...probably a jigmaster reel and mount the reel to a rod. I need to find a way to mount the rod...Maybe Alan's boat when it's on the road. Tie the line to the bumper of my car and take off for 100 yards and see what happens with the drag stack and delrin. My fears with using delrin is the heat that will build up causing stickiness and either breaking the rod or line...or tying it off to another boat while it takes off...have knife to the ready...and video the event.
I'll think of something to test it out.
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 17, 2015, 01:45:58 AM
A member gave me some delrin washers to test.
I will install them in...probably a jigmaster reel and mount the reel to a rod. I need to find a way to mount the rod...Maybe Alan's boat when it's on the road. Tie the line to the bumper of my car and take off for 100 yards and see what happens with the drag stack and delrin. My fears with using delrin is the heat that will build up causing stickiness and either breaking the rod or line...or tying it off to another boat while it takes off...have knife to the ready...and video the event.
I'll think of something to test it out.
Bryan,
did you ever did that?
Delrin has a maximum continuous service temperature of 180 degrees. I dont think the carbon fiber drag washers could take much more heat than that before the binder breaks down.
So now I am about done with my servicing binge on 30 reels. Just a couple left getting anodized. So like a dummy I start reading this thread.
"Gee, I have a McMaster Carr account for my shop at my business."
" Gee, I bet my shop guys have a shim punch" (The photo is what they brought to me) This one punches both inner and out holes at the same time with one hit of the hammer.
So I order some 0.031 delrin, two kinds! Some with Teflon and some without Teflon. And some 0.015" just because it was really cheap. It will be there tomorrow morning. I love MMC!
Now will someone help me out on diameter? Should I go the same size as the under gear CF washer from Bryan, or larger? I am thinking slightly smaller than the smaller diameter of the gear teeth notches?
I want to try the under gear AND the under star in delron on one Penn YT special and two Newells to start.
Looks like I am now hooked. Will these urges get worse over time?
Great job on those reels. Sal has a thread somewhere on recommended size to cut the Delron washers. I think the idea was to use one large enough that the washer would never interference with the dog, though some recommended stock size (this is what I do and I believe what Dawn offers), and others recommend smaller then the ratchet. Honestly, I think these washers are rigid (and flow-resistant) enough, where stock size should (and has been working fine).
If you tell us what specific reel models you need washers for, I'm sure someone can provide measurements. I think I just used the stock metal drag washers or undergear fiber washer to cut my first ones when I got a punch set and a press and a Delron sheet from Daron.
Be interesting to see what you think of those with the Teflon in them.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on February 26, 2016, 06:15:33 AM
Great job on those reels. Sal has a thread somewhere on recommended size to cut the Delron washers. I think the idea was to use one large enough that the washer would never interference with the dog, though some recommended stock size (this is what I do and I believe what Dawn offers), and others recommend smaller then the ratchet. Honestly, I think these washers are rigid (and flow-resistant) enough, where stock size should (and has been working fine).
If you tell us what specific reel models you need washers for, I'm sure someone can provide measurements. I think I just used the stock metal drag washers or undergear fiber washer to cut my first ones when I got a punch set and a press and a Delron sheet from Daron.
Be interesting to see what you think of those with the Teflon in them.
Bryan,
You say "punch set and press" above. Should I use an arbor press instead of the hammer to punch these out? I have a smaller bench top arbor unit in my garage I use to press bearings on my Harleys and I have a larger 3 ton unit at work. I have never made shims before but my shop guys use a hammer.....
Using a hammer and punch can sometimes split the delrin/acetyl. I now only use an arbor press with the wad punches. You may find, on the smaller presses, that you will need an extension handle for better leverage ;)
I had a bunch of delrin washers water cut but the cutter does not like to cut it.
I punch the ones for the 113H reel 1/2" x 1 1/8". and the 114H are 9/16" x 1 1/16" or 1 1/8".
I use an arbor press and the very costly double punches like shown above.
thanks for all your help.
I made one delrin washer this evening, for the 113H @ 1/2 x 1 1/8 and installed it WITH Bryan's keyed metal washer and this delrin in place of the fiber one under the gear. Of course this is with the SS gear sleeve, keyed all the way.
I had to use the arbor with a pipe to get enough leverage to cut thru 0.031 delrin acetal.
Set the 7+delrin to 20 lbs of drag with spring scale, very smooth! I will only fish it at 17lbs of drag, max. Mostly at 15.
A very nice and simple upgrade IMHO.
Sorry, forgot photos.
THANKS!
very nice, I'm glad you like it.
My 1 ton press is worthless without a 2' pipe for leverage.
I have that punch set at work but it's marketed under a different brand name (Bohme).
Great piece of kit. But use a press to cut the delrin, the shock from a hammer blow does split some of the delrin washers. So it's press all the way now for me.
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 27, 2016, 03:11:58 AM
very nice, I'm glad you like it.
My 1 ton press is worthless without a 2' pipe for leverage.
I'm using a 3 ton press with a cheater pipe mainly because I'm doing this from a wheelchair. I'd does feel good on my back when I'm pulling the bar down. My discs are acting up again.