I'm getting conflicting responses to this question. The situation that comes up is fishing closely around log jams & inside submerged cover I am needing high drag output to pull fish over a 100 lbs from structure. My sights are set on our state record flathead which weighed 123 lbs. This is straight "tug of war" type fishing.
My question, how bad of an effect would fishing a reel such as a 40 LD2 Torque or Fathom at sunset / max, initially after hook set, then immediately after fish is clear of structure backing the lever down to an acceptable level.
I have heard everything from "you'll trash the bearings after 2 outings" or the reel will do fine for a summer. I understand there is no hard answer for this. I'm needing 3 reels for this use here at home.
I dont mind replacing bearings. But I'm not wanting to do it every week. Most of these fish I'm after are untouched by rod & reel.
Any suggestions Or answers appreciated.
River rat,
I'm not trying to be funny, but I think you need a bigger reel that can take that abuse over and over.
123lb is a big cat!, but its small for a Shark. ;)
Quote from: Rivverrat on January 15, 2015, 11:31:14 PM
I'm getting conflicting responses to this question. The situation that comes up is fishing closely around log jams & inside submerged cover I am needing high drag output to pull fish over a 100 lbs from structure. My sights are set on our state record flathead which weighed 123 lbs. This is straight "tug of war" type fishing.
My question, how bad of an effect would fishing a reel such as a 40 LD2 Torque or Fathom at sunset / max, initially after hook set, then immediately after fish is clear of structure backing the lever down to an acceptable level.
I have heard everything from "you'll trash the bearings after 2 outings" or the reel will do fine for a summer. I understand there is no hard answer for this. I'm needing 3 reels for this use here at home.
I dont mind replacing bearings. But I'm not wanting to do it every week. Most of these fish I'm after are untouched by rod & reel.
Any suggestions Or answers appreciated.
What # test line will you be using and what drag setting are you planning to use.
i can think of only one way to reliably do this. the old orginal avet 4/0 two speeds had a "lock" button that would lock the spool. that's the only way in can figure that this would work. the only other way would be to shove a wooden wedge the size of a door stop in between the leading edge of the spool and the frame to lock the spool. that would be the easiest and cheapest way to lock the spool.
now, these fish have clearly been landed before. is there a way to find out how many pounds of drag is required to pull these cats out of their holes?
Shark Hunter, you of course are speaking the truth. I know what I'm wanting is outside of whats available. What I'm wanting is silly in when lined up to whats out there. But I'm hoping against all good sense that some thing may work.
Alan, yes of course these fish have been brought to hand. But under the conditions I describe & gear used it is mostly luck. You bring up something that I'd forgotten about. That is locking the spool. I think I'll pass on your door stop idea.
I also hope you understand I'm aware I dont need this level of drag for the regular catching of these fish. These fish dont strip yards of line off. Pound for pound once hooked they just dont fight as long as some of the fish you all have available. Immediately after being hooked they blow up, when in shallow water, do a back & forth out front sideways thing, finishing the fight. Blue cats & Flathead over 50 lbs. are caught in open water on 6500's frequently.
These fish dont ever travel real far, have a high fat content, there eyes favor the top of their, their tail is not forked, their head is ramp or wedge shaped. They are built for quick, explosive ambush from below.
You ask the million dollar question, how much drag is needed in these conditions for these fish.....Not enough people fish the conditions I describe with rod & reel to know. Few want to. These fish laugh at my 25N's. Not enough there to turn their head & get them in the open water. In open water I've yet to have any not brought to shore in 10 minutes or less. My biggest an 83 lb. Blue fought hard but not long.
Brian, 80 lb. test would be the bottom end. 130 would start giving me some confidence.
An Avet T-Rex Quad drag 50 class reel spooled with 130 jb holo core and a 130lb mono topshot would give you stopping power. You would probably want a short, heavy, low stretch abrasion-resistent mono topshot, and a stiff heavy rod to minimize distance loss at strike. I know you will need a solid through-gunnel rid mount if you are going to start with high drag settings at strike. This setup would not be cheap though.
Larger reels with bigger spool diameters will give you more bang. You are probably going to want a reel with a large diameter spool, low gear ratio, and steep drag curve. Avets, and FinNors fit this bill.
Getting rid of the reel altogether and fishing a straight handline would also work. I've caught 500lb+sharks, and 120lb Pacific Jacks on Handline gear, where the fish could not take an inch of line. Doesn't work so well on 150lb+tuna, or 250lb+Marlin though. Hydro reels would certainly make quick work of your cats. But wheres the fun in that?
I run Baja specials with 130 JB hollow for flat fishing here in Arizona and couldn't ask for a better reel. I know it's not lever drag but im not a huge lever drag fan for casting live bait. I've hooked flats with locked down drag on the Baja specials and have never had a problem.
Top Shot would know. He is the flatcat daddy! ;)
Tightlines idea of the quad T-rex would get the job done if you don't mind spending $800 for a reel.
I think Everyone knows where I'm going with this. ;D
The reason I didn't like lever drags was because it would cast larger size baits just fine, say a candy carp or a 1+lb bluegill but if you cast anything less then a palm size gill it just never seemed to cast right
Man I cant believe I found some place where people not only give consideration to this scenario.....but also grasp the concept.
I love to fish. I own my own business so I can fish every day it's not winter. Even in winter I go out a lot & fish for cats. I was beginning to wonder if you might be thinking I was a little off as in crazy. Which my X wife would tell you would be the truth of the matter.
Tightlines, your thoughts are right on regarding equipment.While I dont mind spending money on reels the T-Rex is bit much for no more than I would fish this scenario. I also would eventually like 3 reels for the situation I've described.
Shark Hunter you have a reel for sale?...... Clue me in.
Topshot, I'm not sold on the lever drag myself. This Andros I have is the first I've owned or fished with hard. It does some things I like & some I hate. It's being sent back to Okuma to see what can be done.
Please dont take this wrong I'm in no way meaning to be a smart @$$. The Baja & it's newer version is one I've been looking at pretty hard. Mainly because I believe more drag is available over stock.
Have you fished the scenario I've described?
With fish over 60 lbs. being caught on the 113 in these conditions I describe ?
How much drag are you getting with your Baja with a full spool ?
Sounds like your happy with how the Baja cast.
I've never been able to completely lock down a Senator reel with the drag. I know this may not be exactly what you meant.
Info of this type is valuable to me.
95% of the time my Fathom star drags will do everything I need.
I appreciate the consideration & help here with what my X referred to as "My Sickness"......Jeff
Jeff,
We all have the same sickness Buddy. ;) I am a Senator Man through and through and I think that is what you need to accomplish your goal. A Big Heavy Reel for a Big Heavy Fish.
The bang for the buck, I think you will be laughing and Not those big Cats!
I really like bringing a Gun to a Gun Fight! ;D
Just My opinion..
For your type of fishing, like Alan, the older Avet EX40/2 or was it 4/02. It's slightly bigger than a 4/0 reel but has a stop pin that locks into the ratchet plate and stops the spool in its tracks.
Brian I'm going to look into this Avet you speak of.
But Shark Hunter keeps smacking me with the truth. I've had a hankering for an honest American made reel. I love classic Old stuff. That is still made & works. I can buy an American made 113 N, push the drag maybe? to 35 lbs. or more & see what happens.
Because right now I'm not fishing these log jams up close because of all the frustration I've experienced through the years attempting it & not having gear that was capable.... Regardless I will still be way below the cost of an HX Raptor, Makaira etc. The Senators seem to be the Chevy 350 or John M Browning design (Pick One) of the fishing world.
Well I'm off to see what can be done about the drag on the newer U.S. made 113N.
Did'nt Cal sheets do a bit of work on these drags?
Riverrat,
This is the type of Avet you should be looking for. If you look at this picture, you will need a little button on the bottom of the reel. That is the spool lock pin.
If you are looking into star drags, I believe the US113N is capable of 28# of drag. Not sure if there is a way to effectively bump it up to 35# of drag.
Another reel to consider if you can find them are Shimano's Ocea 4000 and 5000 reels. Many of them came with a slide switch on the left side plate that will prevent the spool from letting line out. That was used to essentially let the angler do a dead pull without losing any line. I cannot seem to find a picture for this one though.
Good luck in your hunt.
Bryan
high tech would be an old avet 4/0 with a spool stopper button. old school would be a narrow 6/0 with a wooden door stop. i would bet, though, that a buttoned down 6/0 with 200# spectra and a short 150# topshot would do the job without the door stop!
Preach on!! El Presidente!!! ;D
Or???...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx130/foakes1/A7BDF7EA-ADF6-45D1-991A-B9542661776E_zpsglqifgaq.jpg) (http://s748.photobucket.com/user/foakes1/media/A7BDF7EA-ADF6-45D1-991A-B9542661776E_zpsglqifgaq.jpg.html)
😹😹😹😹
Fred
Sal just tested an insert and drag kit for the 113H at 37 lbs drag coming straight off the reel, no rod.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12766.0
get yourself an alvey sidecast
If you do get an Avet EX4/02, be sure to get one of the early models. The last couple years they did away with the spool stop button. While I'm here: There was also a single speed version of this reel that, if you can find one, will be much cheaper and just fine for your needs.
akfish, thanks for that info. & yup I noticed the single speed version of this reel when doing a web search
wallacewt, the O'l Alvey Sidecast now this is an idea that might have merit.
OK I have looked at this a bit & made some phone calls. A used 6/0 Penn can be had used at a pretty reasonable price. But they aren't that easy to find with solid frames & Penn is only producing the US made 113 with a solid frame.
In stock form the 6/0 I don't believe has the drag in stock form. How much drag can you get with a 6/0 & Tiburon frame & metal side plates?
There is a point money wise where it would be better to just buy an Avet HX Raptor or Makaira 16 or 20. But im all for doing what I want as cheap & efficiently as possible.
If I could come up with a way to selectively lock the spool the US made 113N would work as is.... I think.
I need help with drag upgrades for the Penn 6/0. What can be done with this reel?
The more I think about Alan's idea of locking the spool, I like it. I like it much more than trying to increase the drag. This would allow me to use the 113N & live with the very acceptable stock drag of over 20 lbs.
Thinking Accurate metal side plates would be a place to start. Maybe? Just thinking out loud. Cant afford to do to much at the moment. But I can certainly gather some thoughts when I can. Maybe start buying stuff a piece at a time.
Any ideas on how to selectively lock the spool on a 113 ?
Ok River Rat,
I'm probably going to rock the boat here, but I think locking the spool is a bad idea. If you hook into a 125lb cat. You need a little give or something is going to break. Sure that cat weighs in at 125, but he is not going to be able to pull back his own weight in the water.
We Have some real Guru's on here and I think you came at the right time. ;)
Our Man Adam has just came out with an insert kit for a 113h that can hold 37lbs of drag. That's a Lot!
Our R&D Dept. has tested it with amazing results. These are not available as of yet, but patience is a virtue. You will not find a more affordable package with that kind of drag.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12766.0
If you need a truly locked drag, I could cut you an insert to replace the drag stack 1 piece solid stainless, ears to engage the gear, and the ID to match the gear sleeve. Drag slip wouldnt be an option, but you could lift a buick out of the lake without losing line.
Three se7ens, I appreciate that, I really do. But because of what Shark Hunter has said & I've all ready been thinking about I'm not completely satisfied this is the way to go. Your just another fella here that I am surprised at how gracious you are. I also have yet to decide exactly what reel. Between a 4/0 & 6/0 at the moment.
Shark Hunter, your in no way rocking the boat. I was thinking about the diameter of the spindle on these reels right after I made my last post. I began thinking a little more....
All that force is being supported by only 2 bushings or bearings on the end of the spindle. That's not much area to take the kind of loads normally placed on a reel.
I also agree, it's a safe bet a fish cant pull it's own weight in the water. The other very big issue, is pulling hooks or better described as ripping hooks from the fishes mouth. I've not heard of this happening but at some point this has to become a very real issue with these high drag ranges....Jeff
That is why you need the give Jeff. You need the drag to work. Locked down is going to lead to bad things. You have our input buddy. Personally, I would fish a 114H with Black Pearl Hex Gears or Adam's insert soon to come, ss sleeve and a Tiburon frame. If you need a 114H, I can give you a deal on one to get you started. I think a bone stock 114H with a 5 stack, ss sleeve and steel gears will get the job done. We are here to help. ;)
Why would you do the 6/0 & not the 4/0 ? I want o get this part right!!
Line capacity isn't an issue. They both will hold plenty half full.
Would a topless frame work? They are so much more user friendly when things go bad.
I'm also thinking a narrow frame is best.
Any reason not to buy the spool kit with the frame ?
Are the accuplates still available ?
You don't need large line capacity so have you considered something like the Omoto Triple?
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12043.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12043.0)
Keta , I appreciate you pointing those out. They are reels I would purchase just to try & have something different. But I think for now my 3 25N's are serving well for that category of reels. They do look interesting.
Quote from: Rivverrat on January 17, 2015, 07:26:00 AM
Why would you do the 6/0 & not the 4/0 ? I want o get this part right!!
Line capacity isn't an issue. They both will hold plenty half full.
Would a topless frame work? They are so much more user friendly when things go bad.
I'm also thinking a narrow frame is best.
Any reason not to buy the spool kit with the frame ?
Jeff,
I said 6/0 just because I think that reel in stock form with a 5 stack, steel gears and ss sleeve can accomplish your goal. (Plus, that's the reel Alan suggested.) A 4/0 with all the upgrades including the frame will cost several more hundred dollars to get it to a 6/0 level. We are talking $125 for the 6/0 and probably $350 or more for a 4/0 tanked out. I sent you a PM.
Fred I just noticed that your Toyoto truck has an anti-reverse bearing (ARB) :) How do you reverse ;)
ah tiddley
Hey, Chris --
5 Speed eccentric lever -- hydraulic clutch -- OZ craftsmanship.
ARB -- Anthony Raymond Baker -- Melbourne, Australia
So Tony Baker made the frame mounted bumper and bull bar setup.
Sometimes it is unavoidable to hit an animal when driving, particularly at night. Because of the design of this setup -- it tends to deflect the animal down to either side -- or stop it from coming through the windshield. Inspired by night driving, and off-road racing at high speeds, in the Outback -- where Kangaroos are very numerous, and a major hazard.
Up here in the Sierras, we have very few Kangaroos -- but a lot of deer that like to jump in front of headlights at the last second.
One time I hit a large dog on the way up below the town of Prather -- the dog was not killed, since the upward and outward design under the bumper is smooth and angled.
Best,
Fred
You don't need Accuplates if you're looking at max drag. They might help with heat dissipation on fish that take blistering runs but that's not your issue. A 6/0 with a Tib frame some extra stainless goodies and a hex drag insert should get you what you want.