A question for you Jon. I have an older custom stick that was built for a friend back in 1977 and is in need of new guides, but there is also some diamond wrap at the for-grip that I do not want to change and also the rod builder signed the rod and added my friends name and date,that I want to leave also. I have already sanded the finish on the diamond wrap lightly with #400 wet&dry paper and wiped with Alcohol. DO you think the over coat with epoxy will hold?Also the signature and name do not look like they were coated with what ever was used back then...so I'm thinking just using one or two coats of Diamond II should hold nicely.
Your Thoughts would be appreciated.
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 16, 2015, 11:49:11 PM
A question for you Jon. I have an older custom stick that was built for a friend back in 1977 and is in need of new guides, but there is also some diamond wrap at the for-grip that I do not want to change and also the rod builder signed the rod and added my friends name and date,that I want to leave also. I have already sanded the finish on the diamond wrap lightly with #400 wet&dry paper and wiped with Alcohol. DO you think the over coat with epoxy will hold?Also the signature and name do not look like they were coated with what ever was used back then...so I'm thinking just using one or two coats of Diamond II should hold nicely.
Your Thoughts would be appreciated.
You did everything I would have done. The D2 should have no problem bonding on top of the wrap especially since you sanded it. Make sure to take some masking tape and get all the dust off of there and you should good to go
Quote from: Jon Vadney on January 17, 2015, 06:08:10 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 16, 2015, 11:49:11 PM
A question for you Jon. I have an older custom stick that was built for a friend back in 1977 and is in need of new guides, but there is also some diamond wrap at the for-grip that I do not want to change and also the rod builder signed the rod and added my friends name and date,that I want to leave also. I have already sanded the finish on the diamond wrap lightly with #400 wet&dry paper and wiped with Alcohol. DO you think the over coat with epoxy will hold?Also the signature and name do not look like they were coated with what ever was used back then...so I'm thinking just using one or two coats of Diamond II should hold nicely.
Your Thoughts would be appreciated.
You did everything I would have done. The D2 should have no problem bonding on top of the wrap especially since you sanded it. Make sure to take some masking tape and get all the dust off of there and you should good to go
Hey thanks Jon, this is the first time I'm leaving wrap on a rebuild and was a little unsure of myself. I would have preferred to keep the guides and re-wrapped but the guides are shot.
Just a brief history on this rod. It belonged to a good friend who lost his battle with lung cancer in 1996 and I use this rod and wanted to keep it as original as possible.
Where you have sanded over the old wraps that you want to save, just wet a paper towel with denatured alcohol and rub over it. You will see exactly the brightness to expect when you recoat it. I have done a few old Star rods and the old wrap and graphics look like you just walked out of the store with them.
Quote from: Newell Nut on January 18, 2015, 01:20:37 AM
Where you have sanded over the old wraps that you want to save, just wet a paper towel with denatured alcohol and rub over it. You will see exactly the brightness to expect when you recoat it. I have done a few old Star rods and the old wrap and graphics look like you just walked out of the store with them.
That is the results I was hoping for I just wasn't sure it would turn out that way. I have wiped the rod with denatured Alcohol and some cloth, but I will do it again after removing the old guides.
did you wet the 400 grit? i have a Penn Int II that I need to rewrap but want to keep the original butt wrap; the whole rod has a strange haze like someone use an incompatible solvent to wipe it down.
It will the get fresh U40.
Quote from: thorhammer on March 23, 2015, 07:43:33 PM
did you wet the 400 grit? i have a Penn Int II that I need to rewrap but want to keep the original butt wrap; the whole rod has a strange haze like someone use an incompatible solvent to wipe it down.
It will the get fresh U40.
No I didn't wet the paper I just sanded it dry very lightly. If I was trying to finish a plain surface with no wrap then I wouldn't worry about heavier sanding by wetting the paper and surface, but in this case I wasn't sure of the product used to coat the butt wrap and as is the thread was very close to the surface and did expose in some places. I just wanted to etch it so the epoxy would adhere to it, I had to apply two coats of epoxy for a smooth finish.The outcome was better then I had expected so I am happy with the results.
good stuff, all. i have a couple of rods in similar shape that I'd prefer not to fully rewrap so as to keep original threadwork intact where possible. newell nut just reminded me i have a nice old star thats faded and i'm encouraged to re-epoxy it now where i ws going to strip and rewrap. one day i will learn how to use photobucket and share results
I use Irfan View to reduce my photos and then post them from my pictures or Documents, depends on where I save them. It's much easier then photo bucket.
noted, i'll check it out, thanks!
can you post pics of the refinish job? I think I'm about to get back after that project.
thanks!
John
Ill have to take some pictures of that rod and post them as soon as I can get the chance, I looked on the computer and couldn't find them so I have to take a few later. Wrong rod. Sorry
Okay here are some pictures of that refurbished Rod.
wow thats pretty clear finish! i hope I can reclaim these two I have; we'll see.
John
Quote from: thorhammer on June 22, 2015, 06:49:36 PM
wow thats pretty clear finish! i hope I can reclaim these two I have; we'll see.
John
John I used Diamond II finish. John Vadney has it and sells it. Great finish material. PM John I'm sure he can help.
Thanks!
Great job man!
And yeah... I have yet to find a finish that I like as much as DII. It's not perfect by any means (it seems to be more sensitive to humidity than other finishes I have used, ie: the surface can develop what's called "amine blush", where it looks hazy). To combat this, I run a dehumidifier for about 20minutes before I do any finish work in the winter. Summer time here in norcal = dry, so there's no need.
Quote from: Jon Vadney on June 22, 2015, 09:33:23 PM
Great job man!
And yeah... I have yet to find a finish that I like as much as DII. It's not perfect by any means (it seems to be more sensitive to humidity than other finishes I have used, ie: the surface can develop what's called "amine blush", where it looks hazy). To combat this, I run a dehumidifier for about 20minutes before I do any finish work in the winter. Summer time here in norcal = dry, so there's no need.
Thanks John; I finished that rod back in Feb.. I haven't experienced any problems with humidity as yet, but we have a very good air handling system in our home which has a Ionizing system so that could have something to do with it. That old wrap and rod is probably 40years old or better and I was worried about the Epoxy not adhering to that old finish,but two coats worked out fine.
Everything looks nice. Old rods can look great with a little patience and a little luck does not hurt either.
Quote from: Newell Nut on June 22, 2015, 10:56:18 PM
Everything looks nice. Old rods can look great with a little patience and a little luck does not hurt either.
In my case luck has a lot to do with it. ;D
Nice Job Joe! that rod looks great!
Thanks for all the complements gentleman, I still have a lot to learn to be in the class of you guys. That is why I'm here.
I'm optimistic but its it gonna hit a 100 degrees with about 80% humidity here in NC this weekend.....may wait a bit and actually fish instead.
Quote from: thorhammer on June 23, 2015, 01:22:59 PM
I'm optimistic but its it gonna hit a 100 degrees with about 80% humidity here in NC this weekend.....may wait a bit and actually fish instead.
That may be a good idea, we were planing a fishing trip out to the Navy pier here in NJ but with the sever weather we are expecting we decided to postpone it to tomorrow. The Navy will not let us out there when bad weather is predicted. Temps here are supposed to get near 100 with heavy rain and a possible tornado.
What's the strange material the fore grip is made out of.... ;D
Quote from: Keta on June 23, 2015, 01:58:44 PM
What's the strange material the fore grip is made out of.... ;D
CORK!! ;D I know EVA has taking over most rod building today, the cork was in really great shape the only thing I had to do was lightly sand it and then seal it here is a picture of the butt.
Cork feels right to this "old guy".
Quote from: Keta on June 23, 2015, 02:45:02 PM
Cork feels right to this "old guy".
My wife likes it too, and so do I. I'm working on a new rod Idea with cork grips and a few other goodies with Ideas I have gotten from John V and Newell Nut. Next thing is figuring what reel Ill be using. Something in a 7.5' to 8' stick MH Picking the rod is the hard part for me,second is which reel stile conventional or Spinning. It's like a chicken in a barnyard full of fox. Don't know which direction to run! ;D
Great job! The finish looks fantastic.
On your new rod build....if you go conventional and haven't tried acid wrap....you should. What a difference. After one acid wrap....going forward all mine will be.
Quote from: Steve-O on June 23, 2015, 04:22:40 PM
Great job! The finish looks fantastic.
On your new rod build....if you go conventional and haven't tried acid wrap....you should. What a difference. After one acid wrap....going forward all mine will be.
If I understand you correctly you are talking about the acid rod guide system, that is supposed to go with the torque of the rod? I have a friend that has done a few like that, I have the gauge and instructions,but I would have him come over and assist me with the guide placement for my first try at it.
Once I tried a spiral wrap rod I can't go back.
Quote from: Keta on June 23, 2015, 04:29:31 PM
Once I tried a spiral wrap rod I can't go back.
Now you guys have added another hitch to my decision making.....THANKS!! ;D
You're quite welcome!! ;) ;D :o
I have seen the proof in the pudding on land and on the water fighting/playing a fish with a conventional reel matched with a spiral wrapped rod.
The simple test is a bucket of sand, rocks, water, lead, whatever attached to your line with the spiral wrapped rod.
Then open your non-reeling hand and rear back and see what does and doesn't happen. Turn the handle with the other hand open and watch how the spiraled guides and down facing tip top negate nearly 100% of the rod torque. It's so surprising it made me type all this.... ::)
Yep, a little wordy there Steve. ;D I haven't fished with a spiral wrap and Alan T offered to let me borrow one. I'm not a borrower so I did not take him up on it. I am going to finally get one. Do you hear me Jon? Dominick
Dominick - every rod I have (for conventionals) aside from baitcasters is spiral wrapped. It does eliminate rod twist in the hand. I have intended to measure the amount of 'twist' a conventional rod imparts - just haven't come up with a suitable measuring technique, yet ;)
I did purposely wrap a rod at 90 degrees to the spine - to demonstrate to a friend that it works - I now have a request for four rods to be spiral wrapped - more work :D
I would still recommend finding the spine and wrap accordingly - its just that a spiral wrap removes the perceived twist in the hand :)
Think Ill let you guys plug John for a rod "(Dominick)" and Ill just make one for myself soon as I can make up my mind on which rod to purchase. ::) ;D
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 23, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
Think Ill let you guys plug John for a rod "(Dominick)" and Ill just make one for myself soon as I can make up my mind on which rod to purchase. ::) ;D
Joe if you don't have any experience spiral wrapping I suggest you research the rod section of this site. I sort of remember someone posting instructions on spacing and angles for a spiral wrap. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on June 23, 2015, 05:13:07 PM
Yep, a little wordy there Steve. ;D I haven't fished with a spiral wrap and Alan T offered to let me borrow one. I'm not a borrower so I did not take him up on it. I am going to finally get one. Do you hear me Jon? Dominick
I hear you and am ready and waiting :D
All joking aside about spiral guide placement, it's actually a helluva lot easier than standard placement in my opinion. Here's why: on a conventionally wrapped, say....7' rod, you have to worry about the line touching the blank in between 8 or 9 guides. On a spiral wrapped rod, you only have to worry about it on the first 3-4 guides (transition guides). After that, it's impossible for the line to touch the blank.
Now in terms of spiraling methods, throw out all of the jibberjabber formulas, guide wheels, and all that other crap. It really over-complicates something that is simple. Here's the thought process I go through when spiral wrapping a rod:
What is the intended purpose of the rod?
Does this intended purpose require a lot of casting?
Is the blank fast, moderate, or slow in action?
Those 3 questions determine what kind of transition I will use. So lets say that I'm building a Calstar 700M (30# boat rod) for a guy who is going to use it for live bait fishing out of SD:
What is the intended purpose of the rod? - live bait fishing, mostly sardines, occasional swimbait on the slide, medium sized tuna and YT
Does this intended purpose require a lot of casting? - a little casting, but casting isn't the main focus
Is the blank fast, moderate, or slow in action? - the 700m is, imo, a fast rod that is verging on moderate.
OK, so now that I've got that figured out, I will probably go with a 3 guide transition. This will give the angler the ability to still cast if he wants to, but it doesn't need to be some ultra slow transition and I can get the guides to the bottom of the rod as quick as possible (the more guides you have on the 180 degree axis, the more stable the rod will be).
Now.... youre probably thinking "jon...this doesn't tell me crap about WHERE to put those guides", and you're right, as it would be impossible for me to tell you where they go. What you have to do is this: put a reel that is similar in size to what will be eventually used on the rod, in the reel seat. Measure 22" from the center of the spool up to the blank and make a mark. Next, install your tip top on the 180 degree axis. Measure 3.75" back from the tip and then progressively increase the spacing back to the stripping guide. A rod this long, with it's moderate-fast action should require 8 guides. Tape the guides on and run the line through the guides. Put the rod in a rod holder, or have someone hold onto it for you and load the rod to it's maximum (do this by pulling down on the tip of the blank, not on the line as you'll just pull the guides off of the rod) and keep the line taught.
What you are looking for here is the line to make a straight path to the bottom of the rod when the rod is loaded, when viewed from the side. What you do not want is the line to make sharp angles in between the guides. An easy way to think about this is you want the line to touch the ring of the guide at the point which is closest to the blank.
Below is a picture of someone else's build. If you look at the 2nd guide up, you see how the line isn't straight and there's an angle in the line between the 1st and 3rd guide? You don't want that. I would have moved that second guide slightly more to the "right" to give that line a straight path.
(http://i.imgur.com/hY8xTPK.jpg)
Now, on the flip side, if I were building a surface iron rod where casting is of the utmost importance, I would probably use a 4 guide transition. On the other extreme, vertical jigging rods, I would probably go with a 2 guide transition using the "simple spiral" method. If someone is curious about that, let me know and I can type out how that's done.
Jon: PM sent. Dominick
I see the angle in the line where it enters and exits the guide. Not good for line friction, IMO. What I noticed also is that it's wrapped clockwise....is that a no-no? Or not? Mine are going around to the left for right handed reeling. Does it matter?
I did the "tape the guides to the blank after finding the spine"scientific method when doing mine...then loaded the rod with the matched reel and line and spaced my guides accordingly.
Mind you I've only done 6-8 rods total for me only so my input is the least experienced.
And yes, D, I can be "wordy" at times..and absent minded...uhhh...what was the question?
For freshwater rods I wrap the guides to the direction of the handle so that when you lay the rod down on the deck, the guides are up. On saltwater rods, I spiral them the opposite direction of the handle to make leveling easier.
From all of my research and builds I basically do the same thing that Jon has described. Only thing to add is something that I know Jon does and I do as well is offset the first guide from the reel to make thumbing the spool a little easier and this can vary depending on the width of the reel. While the reel is mounting and you do that load test to see how the line is going to run just move line to either side of the spool and see if you get a hard angle on either side of the stripper guide. Find a happy medium. This will also make a difference in casting.
Lots of good suggestions here on doing an acid rod, I PMed John and he gave me a good choice on blanks to start with so next thing is saving my pennies to get started. Soon as I start this project I will post pictures...It probably wont happen until this fall, that's when I do my rod building. On my way out soon to pick up bait for to nights Stripier fishing, the stooped weather report kept us from going out last night and turned out to be nothing >:( darn weatherman!
I just read this.
I've often pondered an acid wrapped rod. But the again I've found a gimbal butt & simple lightweight belt seemed to solve any issues the acid wrapped rod solved. I began placing gimbals on all my rods that were worth a hoot. The fact they kept the reel facing up in the holder with bait out made it worth it.
Quote from: Rivverrat on June 29, 2015, 03:28:39 AM
I just read this.
I've often pondered an acid wrapped rod. But the again I've found a gimbal butt & simple lightweight belt seemed to solve any issues the acid wrapped rod solved. I began placing gimbals on all my rods that were worth a hoot. The fact they kept the reel facing up in the holder with bait out made it worth it.
Gimbals and plates certainly have their uses. One thing they don't prevent is the rod tip rolling over when the rod is really loaded. Twisting of the rod blank under load most certainly isn't good for the blank.
With that being said, there still are a few rods that I would wrap conventionally:
Dedicated stand up big game rods with rollers that will be fished on a private boat/yacht
Deep drop swordfish rods
Chair trolling rods
Aaaaaaand that's about it lol.
The reason I mentioned the private boat/yacht up above is that on party boats, I believe the rail is a far superior way to fight a fish. Rail = no plate = spiral wrapping provides stability
Quote from: Jon Vadney on June 23, 2015, 09:54:11 PM
All joking aside about spiral guide placement, it's actually a helluva lot easier than standard placement in my opinion. Here's why: on a conventionally wrapped, say....7' rod, you have to worry about the line touching the blank in between 8 or 9 guides. On a spiral wrapped rod, you only have to worry about it on the first 3-4 guides (transition guides). After that, it's impossible for the line to touch the blank.
Now in terms of spiraling methods, throw out all of the jibberjabber formulas, guide wheels, and all that other crap. It really over-complicates something that is simple. Here's the thought process I go through when spiral wrapping a rod:
What is the intended purpose of the rod?
Does this intended purpose require a lot of casting?
Is the blank fast, moderate, or slow in action?
Those 3 questions determine what kind of transition I will use. So lets say that I'm building a Calstar 700M (30# boat rod) for a guy who is going to use it for live bait fishing out of SD:
What is the intended purpose of the rod? - live bait fishing, mostly sardines, occasional swimbait on the slide, medium sized tuna and YT
Does this intended purpose require a lot of casting? - a little casting, but casting isn't the main focus
Is the blank fast, moderate, or slow in action? - the 700m is, imo, a fast rod that is verging on moderate.
OK, so now that I've got that figured out, I will probably go with a 3 guide transition. This will give the angler the ability to still cast if he wants to, but it doesn't need to be some ultra slow transition and I can get the guides to the bottom of the rod as quick as possible (the more guides you have on the 180 degree axis, the more stable the rod will be).
Now.... youre probably thinking "jon...this doesn't tell me crap about WHERE to put those guides", and you're right, as it would be impossible for me to tell you where they go. What you have to do is this: put a reel that is similar in size to what will be eventually used on the rod, in the reel seat. Measure 22" from the center of the spool up to the blank and make a mark. Next, install your tip top on the 180 degree axis. Measure 3.75" back from the tip and then progressively increase the spacing back to the stripping guide. A rod this long, with it's moderate-fast action should require 8 guides. Tape the guides on and run the line through the guides. Put the rod in a rod holder, or have someone hold onto it for you and load the rod to it's maximum (do this by pulling down on the tip of the blank, not on the line as you'll just pull the guides off of the rod) and keep the line taught.
What you are looking for here is the line to make a straight path to the bottom of the rod when the rod is loaded, when viewed from the side. What you do not want is the line to make sharp angles in between the guides. An easy way to think about this is you want the line to touch the ring of the guide at the point which is closest to the blank.
Below is a picture of someone else's build. If you look at the 2nd guide up, you see how the line isn't straight and there's an angle in the line between the 1st and 3rd guide? You don't want that. I would have moved that second guide slightly more to the "right" to give that line a straight path.
(http://i.imgur.com/hY8xTPK.jpg)
sorry, JOe, I will hijakc the thread a bit
Hey Jon,
can you point me where to find information on instruction on how to wrap a rod on spiral layout (acid wrap?
Im thinking to re-wrap my favorite inshore rod, a musky rod 2-6oz 20-50 line, 7.6ft, but currently 7.2ft since lost 3-4" from the tip.
as most Musky rods are, the action on this one its pretty fast a bit on the stiff side, but once you have a 10# fish it makes a nice bend the last 3/4 of the rod, I was thinking to put some better guides like fuji MNAG on spiral wrap.
any recommedation?
this is the rod, as you can see it "charge" nicely a 4oz jig to cast it to the moon with the calcutta 400TE
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/fishing/P1030015ss_zps786510cc.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/fishing/P1030015ss_zps786510cc.jpg.html)
thanks in advance