After rambling about here & swimming through my scattered thoughts I have concluded that what some of you have stated here is the most reasonable approach. I would love to have an HX Raptor, Accurrate BX or an Andros 16 which I believe for the money may be the best in its class. I will at some point purchase all of these reels. But for now I need a reel that will take abuse & come back for more.
I have some questions. First to restate, my end goal is to reach as much drag as possible in as compact a package as I reasonably can get. With a frame & gears that can with stand the forces involved.
First why or why wouldn't the new US made 113n be a good starting point? Verses building a Tank. Or building 114? Am I limited on how much drag I can get from the new 113?
ProChalleger is claiming 50 lbs of drag with appropriate washer set up of their gear set. What size reel would it take to make 50lbs of drag happen?
Look through the Senator Section. You can get that with the 113H, 114H and 115L, but it takes more than just a set of gears.
You need an aluminum frame to start to handle that extra drag. Then a stainless yoke, then the custom drags.
It doesn't take long to sink a couple hundred into a Senator.
Probably the cheapest route would be a 114H with a factory aluminum frame. Then upgrade the drags to Hex.
The US 113N would be a good starting point and probably save you some money. Some of us here, or maybe I should say many of us here, like to upgrade old vintage reels. Are the vintage reels better? I can't really answer that, simply because the US Senator just recently went into production, the vintage reels have been around for over 80 years.
The platform on our vintage reels is always the same.
Here is an idea of the latest drag upgrade on the 113H, I'm showing this one because almost got lost, the others you should be able to find on your own, over by the Senators section, as Daron mentioned.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12766.msg126071#msg126071
OK assuming everything thats needed being in order are you all thinking 50 lbs. of drag is doable with the new 113?
No, no one said that, but you never know what the future will bring :-\. Don't misunderstand some of the information you'll find here. There are many numbers being thrown around, some of those numbers are for testing the gears only, that means the reel should not be fished at those high numbers. Getting 50lb at holding weight isn't the same as pulling weight.
I personally believe the 113H with all of the latest upgrades could handle 30lb.
By the way, what are you after?
Record size Flathead. I dont need what we are speaking of here 90% of the time I fish for them. However the really big ones lay in various tangle of log jams I fish. When fishing these I cannot afford to give any
line. The fish I'm after will go over 130 lbs.
I really dont want to fish a reel with a completely locked spool with no drag. I just think something will eventually break at the worst time.
113h can push 35lbs of drag and the 114h can do about 50lbs. Now that's with either the new inserts from Adam or a 7 stack from Bryan for the 113h and the hex gears for the 114h from black pearl. Now as Daron stated, to make the reel able to handle those drag numbers it can really add up in costs.
fishsticks, thanks! Your answer was what I was after. Wanting to which reel will get the highest drag. The 114 is what others have been saying would work best.
Even with stock gears, I think a 114H can get the job done with a 7 stack.
Pound for pound, I think it is the most powerful senator for its size in stock form.
If I were going for big Flatheads. I would run a cable leader so I wouldn't get cut off trying to pull him from his lair. Some 60 or 80 lb test. Once you pull him free. Its all over.
130 lbs is a big cat, but its small for a Shark.
30lbs of drag is plenty for a fish weighing several hundred pounds if you have him in open water.
YUP! It's the lack of open water that is leading this search. Open water this fish could be whooped with 13 lbs. or less of drag.
I used to be amazed at the stories of Jimmy Jo so & so & his second cousin decimating the large Catfish population with a Snoopy pole & wieners for bait. No, now that I think about it stories like that irritated me to an extreme level.
I once caught a big Common Carp on a Snoopy pole (my friend bet me I couldn't land a fish over 20lbs on the rig).
I think the 114 will give you more options and will be more fun customizing it to your liking. However, it will likely cost you a bit more to get the specs you want. The new 113 looks like a great little reel and it will likely outcast the 114, and will cost less to get you sum good numbers. All depends on how much, and what type of performance you are looking to get out of the reel. You could always start with a 114, and sum modest upgrades and go from there.
Well,
Besides spending several Hundred for one of those new fangled reels, and since a snoopy pole and wieners is out of the equation here. I suggest you get you a 114H. Upgrade the drag stack to at least a 5 with carbon fiber. Put it on a decent rod and I say your chances are 70/30 in your favor on landing one of those big flatheads. I would run a 12 foot 480lb cable leader crimped to 80lb test. If He breaks that off, A bigger gun will be in order. I think it is possible with that setup. JMO
Tightlines, looking at the schematics & speaking with others who use both reels 113n will with ot a doubt be the better caster of the 2. As long as I can make an overhead lob type cast I will be fine with what ever. Most of the time I wade or use the canoe to drop bait off.
The fact being that precision casting isn't something I do well with a 1/2 lb. or more live bait & even more lead attempting to hit a pocket or come with in a foot of a pile of logs in the river. Attempting this over the years has led me down a path of frustration much greater than I felt upon hearing of the hillbillies with snoopy poles & wieners could ever had.
Daron I'm not quite ready yet to start this reel. But I will give you a holler to see what you have handy when I am....Jeff
Quote from: Shark Hunter on February 17, 2015, 06:17:34 AM
Well,
Besides spending several Hundred for one of those new fangled reels, and since a snoopy pole and wieners is out of the equation here. I suggest you get you a 114H. Upgrade the drag stack to at least a 5 with carbon fiber. Put it on a decent rod and I say your chances are 70/30 in your favor on landing one of those big flatheads. I would run a 12 foot 480lb cable leader crimped to 80lb test. If He breaks that off, A bigger gun will be in order. I think it is possible with that setup. JMO
I agree with Daron. The 114h is a beast with a stock 5 stack. As cost savings, I would not do what me and Daron are prone to and upgrade everything at once but as the need comes along.
Yup after searching this out most folks that know more than I are pointing me toward the 114. I will make changes as I go along. The 114 is not the perfect reel for what I'm attempting here. However I don't need perfect. I need a hand operated winch that fits in a rod holder & can fling stuff when needed about 30 yards.
It sounds like you need a Omoto 12.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0)
Quote from: Keta on February 17, 2015, 02:03:01 PM
It sounds like you need a Omoto 12.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0)
Beautiful Reel!
Quote from: Keta on February 17, 2015, 02:03:01 PM
It sounds like you need a Omoto 12.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0)
Whats wrong with this reel? It looks to good, it's stats are great....it appears perfect for my use? Does one sell their soul after a years use? It looks & sounds to good to be true. Any one here fish one hard?
Which one?
I haven't fished the omoto, but it sounds perfect for you. Tremendous drag in a smaller and lighter package. It's not like you need 500 yards of mono either.
I have a Omoto Triple, I have stripped it down to look and I feel it is well built.... that's why I recommended it.
No Comment. ;)
I hear ya! Your silence screams loudly.
I for one love things that are US made, have a long solid history of doing what they were designed to do. It gives stuff that meets this a soul & an appreciation of ownership that seemingly can only be understood by a few.
I recommend the triple!
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 17, 2015, 11:47:11 PM
I recommend the triple!
Thats a pretty high recommendation coming from you Sal.
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 17, 2015, 11:56:10 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 17, 2015, 11:47:11 PM
I recommend the triple!
Thats a pretty high recommendation coming from you Sal.
I'm not taking sides, just telling it as I see it. I have actually held the Triple and took a very close look at everything.
The Triple Series is a lot of reel for the money.
Alan C. (Black Pearl) sells this reel in his online store and might be able to help with any manufacture questions. Also, would be a great person to get the reel from, as he is well trusted here. Plus, with Sal liking it, then you know it's a decent reel. I didn't even know he knew other Manufacturers besides Penn made reels ;) ;D
Yup I would purchase from him.
This Omoto is a very good price. About 5 years ago I bought 2 twin drag Jigging Master reels and paid about $750AUD each for them.
They pull a lot of drag for their size and are very comfortable to use all day.
This does not diminish my feelings for my PENNS, heck I love mucking around with my old 500 jigmaster at the moment.
Good luck with your decision, whichever way you go.
Basto
Here is Sal's tutorial on the mighty Omoto! I have heard nothing but good things about them.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10800.0
Daron Ive read that two or three times. The bricks in that wagon....while it can be said that is not the same as fishing it. It is something that gives me valid information on what the reel is capable of. More than anything else it is something very close to what I've done myself. Reassuring me that I'm not crazy or there are in fact others with my same malady that are getting along in life just fine in spite of our affliction.
Either way I can now stand resolute & most confident in my endeavor of catching Big Cats or standing in the backyard, temp at 18 degrees, smile on my face, repeatedly tossing a sinker that some say is to light, from my Andros aiming at small objects 30 something yards in front of me. What ever it is I've got it bad. Been that way since I was 7 years old....Jeff
Jeff,
Sal is our R&D Department. If he can move that wagon. That's is the top rated drag for that reel. Granted, top rated doesn't mean it won't explode after an extended period of time at that setting.
That triple is a fine reel. It has to be for Sal to give you his recommendation.
I don't want to say one way or another which reel is best for you.
As my Man Tom Hyrinuk puts on every product he makes. Made in the U.S.A.
It may be tweaked a little here and there. But I will fish with nothing else. ;)
I need the capacity of those bigger Senators and I know if anything fails. It is on me, because I did all of the modifications on my own. Sure, I fish other brands, but just for bait. ;)
I'm probably going to get scolded for this. ::)
Oh ya it's understood that a reel that can do 50 lbs. of drag "DOES NOT" mean it would be wise to fish it at that setting. But what it tells me is that the reel will probably do well at 30-35 lbs. of drag.
I look at the diameter of the spindle on the Omoto Triple & I think I would want a spindle with a bit more diameter if I was going to fish a reel at something as crazy as 50 lbs. of drag.
So I completely had the understanding of what was going on prior.
I'm probably still going to get scolded. ;D
Just get yourself a 114H or in my own opinion, a 9/0 and those cats will be coming in just like snoopy poles with wieners. You can just forget the casting, and canoe your bait out.
That's how I do it. I rig up my bait and Kayak it out. Paddle back and wait.
It works pretty good in the Ocean! ;)
How come the 6/0 H2 only has 5 holes for screws? Was the stand integral with the frame? Or is this the 1/2 frame model?
The H2 China models only have 5 screws. That is the easiest way to tell a China reel from a US made one. Not sure on the details of the frame. I think it is some sort of graphite half frame. I've never held one.
If I go this rout there will be no graphite, bakelite or flashlites on my reel. So the China made H2 is out.
I have several USA made 114Hs with me at the moment. They all have 5 screws. Penn came out with this style when it went to the graphite and some aluminum 1/2 framed reels.
Ok based on Bryan's answer on another thread there is a point when to much drag could shred stainless gears on a 114. People refer to the 6/0 as a beast. OK how much drag can one properly built take with out worrying it will come apart?
Bryan,
You are correct on the Aluminum half frames. I just stay away from post models with 5 screws. Without the aluminum frame, those two less screws mean a weaker reel.
Riverrat, 20 to 25 lbs is a safe drag number with a stock 114H.
Unless you hot rod it a bit with an Aluminum frame. I wouldn't go past this point.
We have been over this. 114H with Aluminum frame, Black pearl gears.
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 17, 2015, 09:14:59 PM
Which one?
I have both. The Omoto will put out 50 lbs of drag for a short time which is what I think you're after. For sustained run I would fished and Accuratized or Tiburoned 113H or 114H with all the upgrade. It doesn't look like you need a 2 speed though but the lower gear is nice to winch the fish in. At 50 lbs of drag, I might be more worry about the hook pulling out.
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 19, 2015, 06:38:07 AM
Ok based on Bryan's answer on another thread there is a point when to much drag could shred stainless gears on a 114. People refer to the 6/0 as a beast. OK how much drag can one properly built take with out worrying it will come apart?
I don't know the strength of stainless steel gears. I was referring to stock brass gears. Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on February 19, 2015, 06:47:18 AM
Bryan,
You are correct on the Aluminum half frames. I just stay away from post models with 5 screws. Without the aluminum frame, those two less screws mean a weaker reel.
Riverrat, 20 to 25 lbs is a safe drag number with a stock 114H.
Unless you hot rod it a bit with an Aluminum frame. I wouldn't go past this point.
We have been over this. 114H with Aluminum frame, Black pearl gears.
I like the 5 screw sideplate. It's a clean look. I many need to put together a tiburon frame 114H.
Quote from: maxpowers on February 19, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 17, 2015, 09:14:59 PM
Which one?
At 50 lbs of drag, I might be more worry about the hook pulling out.
That is the truth of it. Like I said before these fish don't fight long but they fight hard. I have had times they where running line off of my Ambassaduer 7000 & I cranked the drag down twice only to have them pull harder each time taking more line,with the spool rubbing hard on the frame.
Been spooled on the Missouri River a few times though I believe it was Blue Cats & not Flathead. Anyway 2 years ago I decided enough so I bought 3 Penn 25N's for my regular fishing & am now searching for a heavy reel for fishing in & around structure, log piles etc.
A reel capable of fishing 50 lbs. would be great. Though I think I would start out at 30-35 lbs. to see how that works first.... Thanks Jeff
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 19, 2015, 07:08:38 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 19, 2015, 06:38:07 AM
Ok based on Bryan's answer on another thread there is a point when to much drag could shred stainless gears on a 114. People refer to the 6/0 as a beast. OK how much drag can one properly built take with out worrying it will come apart?
I don't know the strength of stainless steel gears. I was referring to stock brass gears. Sorry for the confusion.
Let you slide this time Bryan :D
Quote from: Shark Hunter on February 19, 2015, 06:47:18 AM
Without the aluminum frame, those two less screws mean a weaker reel.
Riverrat, 20 to 25 lbs is a safe drag number with a stock 114H.
I all ready have 3 reels that put out close to 25 lbs. Only reason they aren't doing it is most likely because I have them over stuffed with line.
I have to say 25 lbs. of drag does not inspire confidence regarding what I'm trying to do here at all. I will have to use a Tib frame.
Jeff,
Lets cut to the chase here. You want a reel to catch some big catfish. If I were in your shoes, I would build a 9/0 or 6/0 that will winch these ladies up and you will be laughing at the guys that did it with the snoopy pole and wieners. :D
When you are ready to get it done. Let me know. ;)
No more talky! ;)
9/0 is to big it will have to be a 6/0 or 4/0.
Get yourself an older 113H, make sure it has the 3.25:1 steel gears, add a full frame and a stainless steel gear sleeve, add some fresh drags and go fish. If you have some extra money, go with Bryan's drag kit or Adam's (Three7ens) kit.
In my opinion, that is all that is needed for those kitties. You might even get lucky grabbing a narrowed one at a very good price on line.
Sal
I've run across some good ones with Accu frames. Im just wanting to be sure I get it right. But even if I build something that doesnt quite work out for what ever reason I can build another cheaper than an Accurrate or Makaira. No that I dont like those reels I like them a lot. I just dont believe its what I need for pulling a record quality Flathead from the logs or other structure fished up close...Jeff
Put a call in to Penn with questions regarding structural integrity of the US113 frame. They are supposed to return my call tomorrow.
If I'm going to put something into use & exceed the limits for what it was designed for,doing this in an endeavor I have devoted part of life to. I want to know specifically where it fails. Not knowing that, it is hard for me to have confidence.
Among other things I do tree work I'm good at it. What sense would it make to to trust my life, suspended from a line that I dont know the specs on? Working while unsure of my ropes ability to hold me. It would have a profound effect on the quality & efficiency of my work.
Of a less serious nature are the tools I use fishing. I receive a great deal of enjoyment from it. I dont want to lose any of this at any level because I don't know if my gear will work or where it fails.
The Penn US113 is now the reel I'm seriously looking at. Its of a good size & acceptable weight. An added plus is that it will cast & do so very well.
Cheaper ways to go, but I really like this real, the fact it is US made, has a long respected history that no other reel can meet in its class.
I am trying to find out how close I can get to 35 lbs. of usable fishing drag with this particular reel. There are issue in doing this with this reel. I have what I think are some viable solutions & some maybe not so much....We'll see
I enjoy my fishing I also take it seriously....Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 20, 2015, 12:01:48 AM
Put a call in to Penn with questions regarding structural integrity of the US113 frame. They are supposed to return my call tomorrow.
If I'm going to put something into use & exceed the limits for what it was designed for,doing this in an endeavor I have devoted part of life to. I want to know specifically where it fails. Not knowing that, it is hard for me to have confidence.
Among other things I do tree work I'm good at it. What sense would it make to to trust my life, suspended from a line that I dont know the specs on? Working while unsure of my ropes ability to hold me. It would have a profound effect on the quality & efficiency of my work.
Of a less serious nature are the tools I use fishing. I receive a great deal of enjoyment from it. I dont want to lose any of this at any level because I don't know if my gear will work or where it fails.
The Penn US113 is now the reel I'm seriously looking at. Its of a good size & acceptable weight. An added plus is that it will cast & do so very well.
Cheaper ways to go, but I really like this real, the fact it is US made, has a long respected history that no other reel can meet in its class.
I am trying to find out how close I can get to 35 lbs. of usable fishing drag with this particular reel. There are issue in doing this with this reel. I have what I think are some viable solutions & some maybe not so much....We'll see
I enjoy my fishing I also take it seriously....Jeff
I like the looks of that reel. I havn't had one in hand, much less put it through the paces, but looking at the design...I think you will be hard pressed to push it hard enough to 'fail'. The gear ratio is low, and gear set is tough, the spool, and one piece frame look solid, the gear sleeve is well supported, its double dogged (though individual dog engagement may nit have quite as much surface area or be directly oposite one another, they should do theit job. The baja style drag system should give you the drag numbers your after. I would definately do a pre-service to pack all non spool bearings full of grease though. It might be possible thst side loads on the under gear bearing (if its a standard bearing), could cause it to fail under high side loading (but it appears that the main gear derived load is distributed to the outter race?). Not sure if the jack is stainless, if not it could get chewed up over time. The other area to watch might be the 2 piece free-fliating style right side spool. If fished beyond the reel specs, not sure if the support would keep it from deforming (mind you, I am thinking excessively large liads on the spool, particarily when not in gear, which is a near impossibility. I think this reel design is likely to be able to hold up to much higher numbers then speced at before you see an actual failure, but I for one am of the mindset thst the redl should be fished within specs when stock. I think it would be a good choice, but as I said, this is pure speculation. Good luck on getting Penn to tell you how their new flagship reel is going to fail though.
Looks like you're bouncing all over the place and can't make up your mind:-\. Every reels have their purpose, for what you're going after the 113H is a much stronger reel than the US113. I don't see why you would need a floating spool and 4.3:1 gears, you will have a hard time turning the handle on that size fish. You've also mentioned the spool shaft, the tip of the spool shaft on the US Senator is as big as a tooth pic :-\.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Sal
Hey Tightlines thanks for your thoughts...Glad some one else shares my same sicknes.
The biggest thing I think that will help me in this endeavor is that I don't need the line capacity that's offered. Allowing me to fill the reel to 1/2 capacity. I'm hoping this alone will give me an honest 30lbs. Though I'm hopeful it will be more.
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 20, 2015, 12:34:49 AM
Looks like you're bouncing all over the place and can't make up your mind:-\. Every reels have their purpose, for what you're going after the 113H is a much stronger reel than the US113. I don't see why you would need a floating spool and 4.3:1 gears, you will have a hard time turning the handle on that size fish. You've also mentioned the spool shaft, the tip of the spool shaft on the US Senator is as big as a tooth pic :-\.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Sal
Good point about the gear ratio, spool shaft, and I might ad cost. I still like many of the design features on this new model, but I would stick to my origional recommendation, get an older stock 113 (preferably with steel gears. Upgrade the drag stack, and maybe a few other minor things like handle, and fish it.
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 20, 2015, 12:34:49 AM
Looks like you're bouncing all over the place and can't make up your mind:-\. Every reels have their purpose, for what you're going after the 113H is a much stronger reel than the US113. I don't see why you would need a floating spool and 4.3:1 gears, you will have a hard time turning the handle on that size fish. You've also mentioned the spool shaft, the tip of the spool shaft on the US Senator is as big as a tooth pic :-\.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Sal
No doubt I've been back & forth on this. Thinking out loud here while posting. You are right I don't need the floating spool. Though I like what that option it gives.The gear ratio could be an issue. The 113H may in fact be stronger but that it is a moot point when there is no clarification of strength or load test to failure of either reel.
Riverrat,
I still would recommend you get the Omoto for what you are after. It has a lot of short burst drag which is what you are after.
You are after some big cats that's for sure. Look get the triple. It has the drag, nice and compact, also the lever drag function allows you to switch from strike to full when the extra drag is needed real quick then back to strike when the cat has hit open water. The reel will hold up! Building up a reel has its advantages, but for your needs it's the triple.
Quote from: maxpowers on February 22, 2015, 06:32:36 AM
Riverrat,
I still would recommend you get the Omoto for what you are after. It has a lot of short burst drag which is what you are after.
Quote from: fIsHsTiiCkS on February 22, 2015, 06:42:03 AM
You are after some big cats that's for sure. Look get the triple. It has the drag, nice and compact, also the lever drag function allows you to switch from strike to full when the extra drag is needed real quick then back to strike when the cat has hit open water. The reel will hold up! Building up a reel has its advantages, but for your needs it's the triple.
That's what I'd do too.
I think you all are giving great advice. I think I can do both as soon as work picks back up. I hope the Omoto is still on sale then. The Omoto will be my first purchas I can pick up good 4 & 6/0 Penn's at great prices all the time.
I do greatly enjoy using reels from different places. It is part of enjoying the fishing experience. For me any way.
Appreciate your all's patience with me flopping about on the deck of indecision. But a lot of that is do to my incapacity in communicating well on a forum...Jeff
Jeff, we all want the best bang for our buck. Take your time and the right reel will be in your hands.
Thanks Bryan, I'm a ways from doing any thing yet. But coming here & reading has helped a lot.