Hey guys,
This is a question for my fellow braid guys. I have always used solid braid to a fluorocarbon topshot. Recently, I was talking to a buddy about switching to hollow instead, as the connection is better and thinner, from what he says atleast. What do you guys think? What advantages and disadvantages have you noticed?
Hollow is more expensive than solid. 130 lb. hollow usually costs the least.
Quote from: doradoben on March 10, 2015, 08:58:26 AM
Hollow is more expensive than solid. 130 lb. hollow usually costs the least.
I know the pricing difference, due to the need for high strand count in hollow, but if its worth the price then I will pull the trigger on it.
I'd say if what you are doing works, then don't mess with it...just my opinion.
Hollow and solid have slightly different characteristics when splicing. The joint area becomes very stiff and many don't like it because it doesn't always sit nicely on the spool. It depends on the length of serving. You also need new tools to do hollow splices...so is it worth your extra time in preparation?
Hollow negatives,
Hollow is expensive, even at my price. (I'll PM you the price to compare to others)
Splicing needles are expensive
Hollow plusses,
Hollow lays flatter on the spool
Hollow can be spliced
Splicing is "cool"....;O)
You can splice different weights of hollow into one line, my "kite reels" (Penn 50SW and 70VS) have 200# on the spool, with a bunch of 130# on top of that with a 100 yards of 200# on top.
L2L connections are somewhat smoother with a spliced loop (but not enough to matter)
I have all solid on some reels (my deep water halibut, kokanee, salmon and steelhead reels), all hollow on some (my cow YFT and live bait reels) and solid spliced on top of hollow depending on the use of the reel.
JB 40# hollow is expensive to make, if it's price was in line with hollow 60# I'd use more of it but as of now I use 60# for 30# to 50# topshots. I don't use much 80# hollow due to price, but I have a lot of 130# and 200# on my larger reels.
Jason, I'm also venturing into the hollow braid world. With the kind of fishing I do,off of party boats in the fall for tuna, the hollow as my backing is looking like a nice way to go. I'm in the process of making a serving jig and just recently got the rigging needles. This is a learning process which I think once I get it down it will be a better connection to the braid. As far as cost is concerned...yeah a little more money but I think a lot mors confidence in the connection. Just my 2 cents worth.
Bob
Quote from: BMITCH on March 10, 2015, 04:11:15 PM
.....As far as cost is concerned...yeah a little more money but I think a lot mors confidence in the connection. Just my 2 cents worth.
Bob
I never looked at the price difference until I started selling JB line, when I did I was shocked....especially for 40# hollow :o. I still use hollow for most of my reels over 40#.
One word of warning, coated Spectra does not make good topshots unless your goal is long line releases. A friend/competitor sold a bunch of topshots built with quality but coated line, they failed and it cost him business. I picked up 2500 yards of his 40# coated hollow line and used it to fill my smaller reels with. Splicing and making loops out of it works as good as non coated. I would buy Power Pro Ace Hollow line anytime for filling reels, at retail price too.
Another 'tip" forget about breaking strength, use the line diameter as your guide. 30# and under can (will) cut you to the bone, I know this from experience and only use it for reels I fish for kokanee and trout. 40# is a good size but far too much $$$, 60# works best for me for under 50# topshots, I have some 80# and use it for 60# and 80# topshots. Most of my spectra is 130#, I use it for 80#, 100# and 130# topshots, the 200# is used for 130#, 150# and 200# topshots and my downrigger "cables". I have some 300# and 1000# I use for other things.
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if you want to check breaking strength of spectra check Paulusjustfishing.com lots and lots of data there. Just an observation we tend to over engineer our rigging strength wise No truly special tools are needed to work hollow if you use a 4 foot lenght of ss fishing wire say 25 lb bent in half as a pulling tool. This does let you get a bigger fluoro test into a given spectra 100 into 60 is often possible (most 60 break close to 100) using the wire method. You can also polish a ball end on flouro till its real smooth and with a steady hand insert it into spectra with no tools at all. For serving 3 10 turn uni pulled super tight 1/4 apart gets the job done.
With any insertion whether braid into braid or mono into braid a very rapid decrease in diameter will promote spectra failure appx1-2 inches above end of insertion. However we are mortals and I dont think we can apply 80 lbs of drag where failure might occur. lol
Bill19803, right you are I'm personally not having issues with breaking strength. My issues are with the union of braid to mono. I'm not real fond of knot to knot methods due to their profile. I'm more concerned with streamlining the connection. Splicing looks mighty appealing!
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 10, 2015, 01:31:33 PM
I'd say if what you are doing works, then don't mess with it...just my opinion.
Hollow and solid have slightly different characteristics when splicing. The joint area becomes very stiff and many don't like it because it doesn't always sit nicely on the spool. It depends on the length of serving. You also need new tools to do hollow splices...so is it worth your extra time in preparation?
Two things. You don't serve hollow splices unless you are talking about mono/fluoro to hollow. For me loop to loop works better anyway and makes more sense. The other thing is you don't need any special tools unless, once again, you are talking about mono/fluoro to hollow, and you can do that without any special tools.
The tools make it much faster though.
I usually have 5-10 L2L topshots in the weights I'm fishing with me at all times. They are fast to change out on the water.
Quote from: BMITCH on March 10, 2015, 04:11:15 PM
Jason, I'm also venturing into the hollow braid world. With the kind of fishing I do,off of party boats in the fall for tuna, the hollow as my backing is looking like a nice way to go. I'm in the process of making a serving jig and just recently got the rigging needles. This is a learning process which I think once I get it down it will be a better connection to the braid. As far as cost is concerned...yeah a little more money but I think a lot mors confidence in the connection. Just my 2 cents worth.
Bob
Thanks for all the replies guys!
Bob, I am thinking that if it works better then in then long run it will be worth the investment. I am really looking at it more for 80lb Hollow. I just want a better connection when I start stepping up to high drag ranges. I tie the FG knot and a modified Albright knot for solid briad and it hasn't failed yet, but I get slipping sometimes that I have to retie before I can throw another bait out there. I fish mostly for yellows, yft and Mahi so my tackle takes a beating.
I know that solid works, the real question is if the connection is better between hollow and flouro vs solid and flouro.
Lee, I did not know you sold JB line. What is the diameter of the 40, 60, 80, solid and hollow. Shoot me a PM if you want. Spooling most of my reels this season.
Keep us posted on this Bob. I bought a reel that has 600 yards of JB Hollow that is new. I want to use it as backing and splice it to 130 lb mono, but I am scared because I don't know what I'm doing. I can watch video's all day, but I need to see a serve done right if front of me to know I'm doing it right.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on March 11, 2015, 02:32:00 AM
Keep us posted on this Bob. I bought a reel that has 600 yards of JB Hollow that is new. I want to use it as backing and splice it to 130 lb mono, but I am scared because I don't know what I'm doing. I can watch video's all day, but I need to see a serve done right if front of me to know I'm doing it right.
Looks like we will all be learning this season
You have a PM.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on March 11, 2015, 02:32:00 AM
Keep us posted on this Bob. I bought a reel that has 600 yards of JB Hollow that is new. I want to use it as backing and splice it to 130 lb mono, but I am scared because I don't know what I'm doing. I can watch video's all day, but I need to see a serve done right if front of me to know I'm doing it right.
Yeah me too Daron. I was fortunate enough to see it done just recently. Looked fairly straight forward but the jig was key in making the connection. I'll keep you posted in the coming weeks. I NEED to get this down as the season is fast approaching. Sometime I need a fire lit under me to get anything done ::)
ill put my nickle in one more time and then go hide in my boat installing downrigger and fish hawk unit
Ive build top shots for about 8 years now and cant say i remember any pull outs or failures on tuna to 232.
this method works on topshots for 60 to whatever
Head down to local drug store and get a nail polishing block ( a couple of bucks) Look up what a net mending needle looks like about 6 inches long and make one out of stiff plastic or even cardboard. go to home depot and get 2 small lever clamps and find a chunk of 2 x 4 18 inches long. Find a good brand of super glue and get some 25 lb braided spectra solid.(i use red to note floro, green to note mono) Thats all ya need to make top shots till the cost of floro bankrupts ya.
Load the net mending needle with the small test braid. Drill oblong holes in 2 x 4 that tightly fit shaft of the lever clamps and jam them into holes. thats your jig. Take the nail polishing block and polish end of plastic line until its smooth with no burrs on end and has a ball on the end. Insert the plastic ( Mono or floro) into the braided line a few feet- I use 5 feet for safety but 2 will do. Tie the spectra to a door knob and pull like the devil. This sets the finger trap to lock the plastic in place and it will NOT slip later. set up the jig and clamp the spectra/plastic combo in it so that the join is about in middle between the clamps. Tie a ten turn uni knot on combo and snug it up but not tight. Gently slide the uni so its at the junction of the plastic/spectra then pull it tight as you can. Kitchen knife handles or dowels work well as pulling tools hands get cut take your choice. lol tie two more ten turn uni slide till they are 1/4 inch apart and pull uber tight. Superglue the unis and let dry. If you want to check for pull out in action , before supergluing mark the junction on the plastic with black magic marker and then glue that too along with unis. If you are getting pullout in action you will see gap between end of black mark and spectra
it helps if you wet the spectra before inserting plastic line but not necessary. The more taper you polish into the plastic the better-it inserts better and does not cause rapid diameter decrease which causes ultimate failure of spectra at uber high loads ( more then we will ever use,
Thats all folks now back to my boat since the snow melted today so its lake trout time soon
The biggest reason I like hollow braid is the ability to change out leader or a longer top shot if it becomes nicked. Doing this using Loop to loop no knots. Or I want to go to a lighter on my leader. Also if the hollow gets nicked or you lose some you just splice it back to the original length or longer. This stuff can go 10 years with out losing any appreciable strength. So in the long run it will pay for itself.
Fishing the river my line is always getting nicked or boogerd up in some way, being able to easily change out my mono leader is a great thing.
Quote from: BMITCH on March 11, 2015, 01:19:46 PM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on March 11, 2015, 02:32:00 AM
Keep us posted on this Bob. I bought a reel that has 600 yards of JB Hollow that is new. I want to use it as backing and splice it to 130 lb mono, but I am scared because I don't know what I'm doing. I can watch video's all day, but I need to see a serve done right if front of me to know I'm doing it right.
Yeah me too Daron. I was fortunate enough to see it done just recently. Looked fairly straight forward but the jig was key in making the connection. I'll keep you posted in the coming weeks. I NEED to get this down as the season is fast approaching. Sometime I need a fire lit under me to get anything done ::)
I have not mastered the serve yet but am comfortable with a NAIL Knot. This will do the job as will the uni as described earlier. these serves are a way of keeping things in place they are 'not' what holds thing together. Make a few wind ons Home made jig or friend and a few simple tool are all you need. Keta is great at answering questions on technique and method.
Best regards and good luck
Btw has anyone been experiencing pop ups on this site Its been a while since I have logged on and this site has always been free of that sort of rubbish in my experience.
The pop ups must be on your end Jon. I've never experienced that here.
x2 Daron - Jon you may have 'malware'.
Download Malwarebytes Anti-Malware from here (don't trust any other site!):
https://www.malwarebytes.org/lp/sem/5/?gclid=CM2DqbuO5MUCFZLLtAod-QQAYw (https://www.malwarebytes.org/lp/sem/5/?gclid=CM2DqbuO5MUCFZLLtAod-QQAYw)
Run a FULL scan - if you have contracted something nasty it will find it ;)
Back on topic.
Serves - Or how to clamp your line without causing damage.
Obtain 2 or 4 speedclamps like this one
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/Tiddlerbasher/1%20Large_zpsrn29f1hf.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Tiddlerbasher/media/1%20Large_zpsrn29f1hf.jpg.html)
Remove the pin at one end (doesn't matter which end)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/Tiddlerbasher/2%20Large_zpsrfgxl8vb.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Tiddlerbasher/media/2%20Large_zpsrfgxl8vb.jpg.html)
You now have a choice 2 or 4 clamps?
Using 2 clamps - Disassemble the clamp (beware of flying springs ;)). Drill another hole alongside the hole you now have (approx. 1" away).
Re-assemble the clamp.
Screw clamp to a large chunk of wood (or bench? as long as it's sturdy) - Then repeat with second clamp. The reason for 2 holes in each bar is for stability.
You now have 2 clamps fixed either side of a block of wood - The jaws will clamp either end of your serve without any damage because they are rubber covered.
Using 4 clamps - prepare as above, without drilling holes.
Assemble 1 clamp and clamp it to a bench.
Remove the jaws from a 2nd clamp and fit to the assembled clamp as below.
Do the same with another pair of clamps et voila a portable serve clamp.
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b521/Tiddlerbasher/4%20Large_zpsvxkawhfr.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Tiddlerbasher/media/4%20Large_zpsvxkawhfr.jpg.html)
The clamps can always be re-assembled and used as intended.
I used loop to loop with serves for many years. Switched to Nub/ nail knots. Splicing hollow to solid, etc. There are a couple of things I have learned in the evolution:
1. Simplicity is best, it saves time and makes things more fun.
2. My reels are filled by diameter, not stated pound test. There is to much market hype. IMO diameter is a better indicator of actual breaking
strength. don't think you can test it properly, see Paluses site.
3. I now have a source in China that I purchase hollow, and 8 weave/strand solid. The weave of the hollow is not as tight as some brands
this means you don't get as much on a reel. But the quality is great, it splices as good as any brand, and the price makes it expendable
like mono. The line volume on the reel (in most cases) is not a issue.
4. After reading about Tacglue (I am not a promoter of the product) my testing went in that direction. The method is insert the leader material
6" into hollow and glue it, that's it. Some very big Tuna have been landed this way. Other types of Superglue will not work. So I found
for MOST applications a 2", YA 2" insertion is all you need. My Grouper fishing here in Florida has shown that getting hung on the bottom
over and over just breaks the leader material, without connection failure.
5. If I am fishing big Tuna, etc. then the Tacglue connection gets longer, and a nail knot to help the connection go thru the guides.
6. Back to the simplicity..... I have a couple of 500M spools of hollow in my bag, that's enough fill most reels. Gone are the stacks of
wind-on leaders, splicing needles, dowels to pull with, serving material, crimping tools, etc. I do use a small piece of wire to insert
into hollow, and a bottle of glue.
7. Also a Albright knot and glue is simple and fast. The glue helps keep back wrap from cumming un dun. And that minimizes failure.
That is my connection of choice when connecting other peoples stuff.
8. I now use all hollow AGAIN for ease of splicing, and connections.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 27, 2015, 11:10:55 PM
The pop ups must be on your end Jon. I've never experienced that here.
Good to know. need to clean my machine. anyone have a schematic link for a toshiba sattilite. Blue grease is sure to fix it
Most everyone here seems to be thinking correctly on the braided line and connections.
Recap:
Loop to Loop offer reliability, easy changeability and very small diameters for the knots, and relatively easy to build.
Choose line by diameter rather than stated strength. Manufactures do not post accurate line strength - Paulus web site gives tested strength.
Hollow offers versatility, easy reliable splicing, easier on the hands (does not cut you up as much as solid can) but has high initial cost.
Solid is thinner for a give strength allowing more line capacity, better for finesse fishing but is difficult to tie good knots and if directly splice will loose 30-50% of it's strength.
Well tied serves work very well but have a long stiff section and require special fixtures to tie.
Tac Glue works very well for leader tests of 35# and larger but does not work with solid braid.
We do a lot of 'finesse' fishing for YFT and YT and we use a hybrid line setup for finesse and straight Hollow for 50# and up.
The Hybrid system uses solid braid (we use 30# Power Pro Super Slick Yellow, 40# Ultracast, 50# ultracast, 65# Power Pro Super Slick yellow, Ultracast 65# yellow in that order). We then attach a 6'-15' section of Hollow Ace (40# for the 30# and 40# solid, 60# or 80# for the 50# and 65# solid) using a 100% strength connection and terminate in a loop. If there is interest I can post a DYI on how to do the solid to hollow splice. Using this system we achieve very high strength to line diameter performance.
Examples of what can be achieved with a hybrid line system listed below. For total strength to the hook without failure with fresh connections and line as well as reformed crimping or Bimini twist to the hook. These ratings assume the leader is stronger than the listed strength. Values are tested and based on my current inventory.
30# Power Pro SS 47#
40# Ultracast 66#
50# Ultracast 83#
65# Power Pro SS 87#
65# Ultracast 105#
Comments on Tac Glue.
Tac Glue seems to perform as advertized ( tested it on the bench and on the water last July). It works well for fluorocarbon leaders of 35# and larger (tested to 125# on200#+ cows last January - no failures). If you try to use it on Fluoro less than 35# expect to see delamination to occur partially or complete failure depending on how hard you pull on the line.
Tac Glue ONLY bonds to the Fouro and no to the braid. The connection is formed when the Glue solidifies in the weave of the braid ( meaning the braid must be saturated when applied) and bonds to the flouro.
Served Connections, We seem to always see a couple of served connections slip out on our trips. These seem to be limited to home served windons . I have not seen any BPH serves fail (but then they use a pre-tensioned serve that has all it's holding power in the serve rather than the finger trap). Any way several of the more serious players are using nubs to increase reliability.
Casting leaders like those made by SteamLined use a direct connection that maintains 100% holding strength at the knot with a very low profile connection designed to pass thru the guided easily. I use this type of connection for all my leaders.
We have just barely touched the surface of this topic,
Jim N.
Tacglue seems to the way that I am going to need to go, I plan to be using a 80lb hollow to 50lb floro top shot. The tacglue seems easy to do and does not require any further equipment. For 30lb and under I find that I have no issue using solid braid.
Jim which tack glue are you using?
Chris.
Do not use the gel. The thin one works. The stuff dries in about 5 seconds. The cost is not great, so on long trips I take small a squeeze bottle with a little glue in it. The bottles can get plugged up so after they start to plug up I trash it. Tacglue keeps very well in the refrigerator.