Some of the earliest drags used on saltwater reels were the ones built into the handle assembly. They were not made by the major manufacturers but they were sold by them and eventually the rights to these drags were bought by the big makers. The most recognized early drag was the Rabbeth and it was being added to reels used around Catalina Island to avoid the damages done to the hand of fisherman when Tuna fishing.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Abbey%20amp%20Imbrie--Tarpon%20model%20with%20early%20Rabbeth%20Drag%20756%20x%20800_zps9txzjbqk.jpg)
Another early external handle drag was the Williams, seen on many early Pflueger reels and used for many years in many different configurations.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC02053.jpg)
They were simple units that worked to a degree when combined with the external auto-reverse seen on this early 1920's Pflueger.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC02051.jpg)
Pflueger had brought these aftermarket designs to a high level installing them on the Pflueger Templar line of reels.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/1924PfluegerTemplarcatalogouttake404x615.jpg)
Here is a Pflueger Templar 300 with a refined Williams Drag and anti-reverse;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Templar-300-7.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Templar-300-8.jpg)
Inside the head plate, it was the personification of simplicity, with a bridge actuated by a external lever that moved the main gear into and out of engagement with a spool mounted pinion gear;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Templar-300-6.jpg)
From these drags, the internals were developed by a system of trail and error over a period of about 50 years by many makers. No one person invented the drag. Many people credit a few key players in the design but it actually was a consolidated effort on both the East and West Coast of the United States of many putting their heads together to catch big game and keep fisherman fingers attached to their hands.
Cool stuff, Michael,thanks and keep it coming as time permits. Those are some awesome old reels you have there..GB
Good stuff! Thanks for sharing! I bet those early external drags would get a little 'warm' during a prolonged battle. Then again, they were basically surrounded by air.
Mike keep up the good work. I love learning this stuff. Dominick
Indeed Mike. We are listening. ;D
Here is an early drag I just wrote about in the "Reel News". The reel is the mid 1920's Ocean City Dover Club model, highly innovative for its time but odd by today's standards. Base metal is German Silver and the side plates are made from a material called Condensite (I believe that is a crazy name for Bakelite).
First look does not appear to be too dramatic but the differences in the whole package are extreme.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Ocean%20City%20Dover%20Club%20Surf%20Reel/Figure%204%20640%20x%20480_zps4lzemcxt.jpg)
I think this reel has nice lines. The drag wheel is small but there is a reason for that when you look inside. This reel is a quick breakdown reel. The head plate is threaded onto to reel frame. Notice the small tab on the lower right inside portion of the reel, if you push that tab sideways, it pulls a release in that allows you to turn the head plate out of the frame:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Ocean%20City%20Dover%20Club%20Surf%20Reel/Figure%205%20640%20x%20480_zpsqxzu1fj2.jpg)
Once the head plate is separated, you can see a bridge assembly that is controlled by the eccentric lever on the head plate. That lever causes the bridge to slide up and down, separating the main gear from the pinion gear.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Ocean%20City%20Dover%20Club%20Surf%20Reel/Figure%206%20640%20x%20480_zps7wqnuhce.jpg)
This is not radical at all, it is a standard way to achieve free spool before the constantly in mesh gear system were put into use. But when you take things down further, we see some strange ways of doing things:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Ocean%20City%20Dover%20Club%20Surf%20Reel/Figure%208%20640%20x%20480_zpszdglebb4.jpg)
The dog is captured in the head plate by the bridge screw (temporarily in place to retain the spring loaded dog in place). The two common slotted screws in the plastic material are holding the reinforcing plate in place (seen on the outside of the head plate). Nothing too crazy here but then there is the drags and the main gear. Here is where the Dover Club stands alone:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Ocean%20City%20Dover%20Club%20Surf%20Reel/Figure%2011%20480%20x%20640_zpswttcyfpk.jpg)
The main gear and sleeve are one piece, next a conical clutch plate slides over the sleeve and a multi disc drag is mounted into the top side of the conical clutch. If you notice the two shoulders on the outside edges of the clutch plate, that is where the dog engages. The anti-reverse gear has only two teeth on the top flange of the conical clutch:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Ocean%20City%20Dover%20Club%20Surf%20Reel/Figure%2010%20640%20x%20480_zpsfngolwer.jpg)
Now when all this is put together you get a drag that has a very weird system. The conical clutch is inherently a higher torque unit for its diameter. A conical clutch has more friction area for the same diameter of a flat plate clutch. The small star wheel presses a sleeve onto to multi disc clutch pack sitting on the top side of the main gear, this clutch pressure presses down on the conical clutch.
The anti-reverse only has two teeth, which means that the back ward motion of the handle will be 180 degrees before it hits a anti-reverse tooth and to top off the crazy feel this reel would have for a modern day fisherman there is one more quirk. Being that the main gear and sleeve are mated together and the handle solidly mounts to the sleeve, when a fish is taking line against the drag, the handle is spinning backward.
All in all, the Dover Club was soon replaced by a new design. It was one of those rare reels that used a design that I do not know of being used on any other reel. These oddities not only make the reel odd, they make it a very interesting collectible.
I wonder how many busted knuckles this reel made with a fish running? ;D
QuoteI wonder how many busted knuckles this reel made with a fish running? Grin
This reel was probably used on the Northeast coast Stripers and Bluefish off the boats and beaches, so you are probably correct to a degree but at least it was an improvement over a Pflueger Everlaster that simply had a leather thumb stall. The Dover Club was only made for about three or four years before better designs were introduced and then it was phased out, but it is an interesting model, especially for an Ocean City collector.
Yes, believe it or not, there are Ocean City reel collectors ;D
All reel collectors are not Pennheads...................... :D
Too cool! Yeah, some of these early reels look like a health insurance nightmare! "Sir this is your third broken knuckle in as many weeks"...."I'm just getting used to some new reels catching big fish ma'am."
I think some of the old Ocean City's are really neat reels, I have a few but don't know much about them...time for some reading. But, now I want to find an old Pflueger to put in the case...Mike you aren't good for our wallets :P
QuoteInsert Quote
I wonder how many busted knuckles this reel made with a fish running? Grin
Here is how Ocean City presented their Dover Club model in the 1920's and it was expensive too!!
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Dover%20Club%20Reel/Figure%207%20596%20x%20611_zpsgptkjprs.jpg)
QuoteI think some of the old Ocean City's are really neat reels, I have a few but don't know much about them...time for some reading. But, now I want to find an old Pflueger to put in the case...Mike you aren't good for our wallets Tongue
In order to appreciate some of the finer things in life, we must learn to pay. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is married with children is worried about the cost of a fishing reel. That said,,,,
What model Pflueger are you looking for?? ;D ;D
As I'm sure so many here already know, I think finding a balance is the hardest part ;D That is one thing that I struggle with...learning what to buy when and when to take that extra coin and throw it in my daughters college savings account. I'm fairly young so I have some time, but I also don't want some of these neat oldies to wither away or cost buckets more in 30-40 years.
No idea on the Plueger, but I'm going to start researching ;D
What material would the red band around the conical clutch be made from? This is a very solid looking reel.
Thanks for showing...very interesting indeed!
Basto
QuoteWhat material would the red band around the conical clutch be made from? This is a very solid looking reel.
The material is hard and dense. Probably a phenolic of some sort. Kind of like the material Penn puts under their main gear in the conventional reels. It is brittle but when captured in a conical clutch, it can withstand the compression forces with ease. I have had a few of these old Dover Club models over the years and have never had one with a worn out clutch. They were tough reels.
QuoteAs I'm sure so many here already know, I think finding a balance is the hardest part Grin That is one thing that I struggle with...learning what to buy when and when to take that extra coin and throw it in my daughters college savings account. I'm fairly young so I have some time, but I also don't want some of these neat oldies to wither away or cost buckets more in 30-40 years.
Dan,
Balance is a sign of an intelligent man. You can not have it all, that said, it is great that you try to save for your daughter's college fund but a not too risky investment from time to time is good too. My opinion for you and that Pflueger you want to invest in is a Atlapac 9/O. In my opinion, it is more art and innovation than fishing reel. Right out of the factory, you will think you opened a custom reel when you look inside, besides being a beautiful design, it is also a very strong fishing reel.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00736.jpg)
The Atlapac was introduced in 1928, the chrome plated one in these pictures is from a few years later. They are super fine production reels, made to handmade standards.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00735.jpg)
Everything about an Atlapac is Art Deco quality;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00733.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00734.jpg)
The tail plate has a clicker button and a adjustable external lever that actuates a secondary drag that really works well. I will show you the internals and you will want one I suspect.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00724.jpg)
A fully German Silver lined reinforced head plate. Most internal parts are jeweled. Pillars and stand are pegged into counter bores on the side plates, so they cannot move once they are screwed into place. Movable rod and harness lugs are included. I believe the anti-reverse is double dogged.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00726.jpg)
Here are the internals of the tail plate. You can see the spring loaded brake shoes in the center of the plate that expand when you press down on the lever. This gives you drag braking on the left side of the spool, which when used with the star drag gives a significant advatage to the drag.
Here is the brake drum mounted to the spool. Of course it sits direct over the brake shoes on the tail plate. A wonderful mechanical brake.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00727.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC00740.jpg)
No, I do not own mine anymore and this one pictured here is not mine or for sale: but, they do show up on EBay occasionally and they are a good investment. They have some really nice accessories that come with a complete package. Pflueger offered these reels in a painted wrinkle finished metal case with the reel placed into a soft wool tan colored bag. The Pflueger logo is printed onto the bag and a Pflueger sticker is on the front of the metal case.
These reel usually sell in the hundreds but I feel in the future, nice examples will go up in value.
Wow! That is one beautiful reel. A work of art, a marval of engineering, and a significant historical piece to boot. I immediately noticed the beefy posts, and seriously heavy reel foot. That baby is not likely to twist or warp on you. Thanks for sharing!
The standards here remind me of the Mauser rifles made in Oberndorf around 1900....or a vintage Rolls Royce.
Superb Mike, what an amazing looking reel. The dual drag concept is very cool especially giving the operator the ability to use it at exactly the time of their choosing.
I also was eyeing up some Oceanics with the Williams drag systems as you pictured before. I have an old Oceanic rod in excellent condition it could pair with.
Thanks for the input and sharing this beauty with us. Add Atlapac 9/O to watch list...check.
QuoteI also was eyeing up some Oceanics with the Williams drag systems as you pictured before. I have an old Oceanic rod in excellent condition it could pair with
If the Oceanic rod is a split cane, the match of reel and rod makes a good talking piece. The Oceanic's were offered in a range of sizes and were simple reels. They are relatively easy to find and can be restored to a jewel like appearance because of the non-plated German Silver that can be polished. Can make a real pretty presentation.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/1930s%20Pflueger%20Catalog--1%20630%20x%20954_zpsrcrt2gat.jpg)
Since they were not offered with any of the drags or anti-reverse devices out of the factory, you would have to present the reel as a custom build buying the aftermarket parts for it directly from the same Pflueger catalog that the reel is advertised in.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/1930s%20Pflueger%20Catalog--2%20639%20x%20927_zpsknx54qbr.jpg)
They are a fairly easy model to find on EBay and were made for many years, so if the rod your have is fiberglass, I believe the model carried into the fiberglass rod era.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/Pflueger%20Model%202178_zpswavmhm3z.jpg)
I kind of like the early ones better, but, that is me.
QuoteThe standards here remind me of the Mauser rifles made in Oberndorf around 1900....or a vintage Rolls Royce
No doubt, the Pflueger Atlapac was a fine reel. In 1928 it was introduced with a lower priced sister model named the Adams:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/img264%20721%20x%20985_zpskk2onq3s.jpg)
The Adams was not made to the standards of the Atlapac but shared many of its parts and its basic design,
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/Pflueger%20Adams-2_zpsnge6fzpw.jpg)
There was no left side drag on a Adams, instead Pflueger placed a large thumb stall for thumb cooking prevention,
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/Pflueger%20Adams-6_zpsndgmtqey.jpg)
Both the Adams and the Atlapac were 6/0 reels in 1928, many of the parts were interchangeable. The internals and spool were interchangeable, the Adams did have the big brake drum clicker gear even though there was no brake assembly in the tail plate.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/Pflueger%20Adams-7_zpsml87eyv8.jpg)
Both reels used a double dog bridge;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/Pflueger%20Adams-12_zpsgpcjqgcf.jpg)
The interesting thing is when we move to today's world and see these two reels in the collector market, there is a roll reversal. In 1928, big game fishing was a sport of the rich and famous. The Adams, was a lower priced reel than the Atlapac. As you can see by the ad, the Atlapac 6/0 was priced at $75, it is 1928, $75 is big bucks but wealthy people do not buy low priced reels, it is not good for their image.
Consequently, the Adams did not sell too well, making it a relatively rare reel in todays market. A good condition Atlapac 6/0 may go as high as $500 today but a nice Adams will sell at the $1000 level. Funny how some things work out.
Good stuff! I am soaking it in like a sponge. Keep it coming Mike.
QuoteGood stuff! I am soaking it in like a sponge. Keep it coming Mike.
Glad you are enjoying it. There is so much more. We have not even touched on the old classics yet, like Joe Coxe, the vom Hofe group or even Kovalovsky's. Or makers like Meisselbach and Perez. Plenty of time and endless reels.
Or we could talk about old time personalities like Zane Grey or Hemingway.
One day at a time......................... 8)
Seriously good stuff, the sponge analogy is spot on.
Funny how we've heard similar stories about the reel the doesn't sell too well and not being as much of a 'success' but it ends up being worth considerably more.
I wonder how the "No-Time-Limit-Guarantee" worked out for them? Interesting wording compared to lifetime guarantee or similar.
I have a couple Joe Coxe reels but don't know much about them, when you are ready we will listen...this place is like the Field of Dreams..."If you post it, we will read".
QuoteI have a couple Joe Coxe reels but don't know much about them, when you are ready we will listen...this place is like the Field of Dreams..."If you post it, we will read".
Dan,
When you get time, please post the Joe Coxe pictures. The life and designs of Joe Coxe are part of the reason we fish with the tackle we fish with.
Mine are the Bronson Era J.A. Coxe reels, so not worth much but interesting to me nonetheless. I find Joe Coxes' life fascinating, looks like there is a great book on Amazon that delves into his life...the preview is in the link below...
https://books.google.com/books?id=PRL8Sb7zDlIC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=joe+coxe&source=bl&ots=Ixbpbr1da6&sig=xKgucfOs_zdlIBJVMEkG7KX5-p0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4usbVZvaDNK1ogTI7oAY&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=joe%20coxe&f=false
QuoteMine are the Bronson Era J.A. Coxe reels, so not worth much but interesting to me nonetheless. I find Joe Coxes' life fascinating, looks like there is a great book on Amazon that delves into his life...the preview is in the link below...
That book exists because of Bronson, it is an excellent biography of Joe Coxe and his story. When Joe Coxe went over to Bronson, he was under the impression his reels would be continued as he designed them. That was how it went in the beginning. The early ""Coxe / Bronson"" reels, as I call them, were basically high quality Coxe reels;
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Coxe%20and%20Bronson%20reels/DSC01084%20816%20x%20612_zpskuqlukyo.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Coxe%20and%20Bronson%20reels/DSC01092%20816%20x%20612_zpsodbocjom.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Coxe%20and%20Bronson%20reels/DSC01091%20816%20x%20612_zps0nhbrmej.jpg)
In a short time, Bronson turned the "Coxe / Bronson" reels into the "Bronson / Coxe" reels:
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC01102539x404.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC01101539x404.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC01105539x404.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC01109539x404.jpg)
The "Bronson / Coxe" reel was an inferior product, but, if you want to add a "Coxe / Bronson" to your collection, it is a high quality piece and does not command the prices of an original Los Angeles, Ca. made Joe Coxe reel, known as an "LA Coxe". The "Coxe / Bronson" reels are exactly like the "LA Coxe" reels.
The Joe Coxe brand was never the same after Bronson got done with it.
Ends up two I thought were J.A. Coxe Reels were only Bronsons. But I do have this one (very similar to the one you pictured above). Seems like a solid little reel...
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/coxe1_zpsrumeek7p.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/coxe1_zpsrumeek7p.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/coxe2_zpsljqvf2j5.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/coxe2_zpsljqvf2j5.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/coxe3_zpswwwdxfl2.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/coxe3_zpswwwdxfl2.jpg.html)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg170/funferdriver/coxe4_zpstcxe7trv.jpg) (http://s248.photobucket.com/user/funferdriver/media/coxe4_zpstcxe7trv.jpg.html)
My mothers maiden name was Pfluger not spelled the same, but it could have been changed when they came here from Germany, I really don't know as I never met my Grandfather on my mothers side just my grandmother and she died when I was 5years old. I own an old Pflueger Capitol reel that is in pretty good shape that I still fish with.
QuoteMy mothers maiden name was Pfluger not spelled the same, but it could have been changed when they came here from Germany, I really don't know as I never met my Grandfather on my mothers side just my grandmother and she died when I was 5years old. I own an old Pflueger Capitol reel that is in pretty good shape that I still fish with.
That's interesting. One of the descendants of the Pflueger brothers of Enterprise Mfg., is a member of ORCA. If you were interested in starting a genealogy study of your family, with the purpose being whether you are related to the Pflueger fishing reel family or not, the ORCA forum would be the perfect place to start a quest.
Joe, the Plueger family have been looking for years for the long last heirs to the Plueger fortune. ;) The search expired in 2015. :'( Close but no cigar. ::) Dominick
QuoteEnds up two I thought were J.A. Coxe Reels were only Bronsons. But I do have this one (very similar to the one you pictured above). Seems like a solid little reel...
Here's is where I should have used another word, other than "inferior". When I say the Bronson / Coxe reels made by Bronson (like yours), are inferior, what I really mean is that they are inferior when compared to a true Joesph A. Coxe made reel. They were a good reel, not great, but a good enough reel in their lower price range category. What upset Joe Coxe and any loyal Joe Coxe customer was that Bronson blatantly used the Joe Coxe name on products that were no where near what someone buying a Joe Coxe reel would expect.
Sort of like how people feel when they buy a low end Chinese made reel with an high quality American name on it. Bronson was like any other big company, they wanted the rights to what they felt the public perceived as excellence, so they could cash on it. The first step for Bronson in that process was the Joe Coxe book authored by Ralph Bandini and financed by Bronson, that you mentioned, available on Amazon as we speak. It is business as usual in our world of Democratic / Capitalism, but when the tactic is so blatantly accomplished as it was with the ""JALOXE"" (as it is so often called on EBay), the transparency of it all is recognized by many. Even though that was the case and Joe Coxe left Bronson when he saw his product changed forever, his name lived on attached to Bronson, which sort of waters down his iconic legacy, IMHO... :-\
Understood, I agree, like you mentioned it seems to happen in many business ventures. I would also be a little peeved having my name attached to something my heart wasn't truly vested in. Thanks
Dominick - Haha!
Quote from: Dominick on April 02, 2015, 03:30:32 PM
Joe, the Plueger family have been looking for years for the long last heirs to the Plueger fortune. ;) The search expired in 2015. :'( Close but no cigar. ::) Dominick
I wasn't aware of that in the first place, and when it come to inheritance I never was one to get excited about it. We were a poor family and I was never enamored by money anyway. It would be interesting to find out if there is some connection there though, I do know that my mothers family were bakers and owned a Delicatessen in Jersey City in the late 1800s and that's about all I know. By the way cigars were my favorite when I smoked :D
I just love these educational posts about the vintage gear...great stuff! Here's a pic showing an early drag set up Pflueger offered on the Supreme called the "Cub Handle". It actually works pretty good. 8)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb470/mo655/P1250002.5.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/mo655/media/P1250002.5.jpg.html)
Quotejust love these educational posts about the vintage gear...great stuff! Here's a pic showing an early drag set up Pflueger offered on the Supreme called the "Cub Handle". It actually works pretty good
I believe the Cub Handle was sold separately by Pflueger. It was not installed on the Supreme in the factory; but, (there may be models with the Cub handle that I am not aware of ?). Great add on that could be put on any Pflueger Bait Casting reel that would allow it to mount. It was very similar to the old Rabbeth Drag, except it was much smaller.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on June 20, 2016, 04:12:44 PM
Quotejust love these educational posts about the vintage gear...great stuff! Here's a pic showing an early drag set up Pflueger offered on the Supreme called the "Cub Handle". It actually works pretty good
I believe the Cub Handle was sold separately by Pflueger. It was not installed on the Supreme in the factory; but, (there may be models with the Cub handle that I am not aware of ?). Great add on that could be put on any Pflueger Bait Casting reel that would allow it to mount. It was very similar to the old Rabbeth Drag, except it was much smaller.
Oophs! A typo...I should have said "shown" on the Supreme. I think I've seen these handles on the Akron too.
I recently aquired a Miesselbach Sea Line 75 reel which has a drag system that was operated by a unique handle-mounted thumbscrew cam.
Background
This patented drag adjustment mechanism was only offered on the Sea Line #75, and the New Neptune #85 reel models from 1931-1935 period. Both reels were developed as a result of the depression, and the desire to produce inexpensive all around saltwater reels. Tue SeaLine was offered at $11, and the New Neptune cost only $7.50. The Sea Line reel switched to a star drag ca. 1935, and the #85 was dropped from production in 1935 as the result of excessive failures of its Bakelite spool. This reel model was replaced New Triton #90. Only 423 of these were manufactured over a 5 year period, and by 1940 Miesselbach saltwater reel production ceased, and in 1941 the company disbanded.
Operation
Basically the drag system on this reel was typical of reels of this period.
This included a bronze gear sleeve with a 9 tooth ratchet that engaged steel antireverse dog when the reel was thrown into gear (via a Kopf-style bridge, eccentric cam and lever).
The sleeve had a flat-honed surface which butted against a hard fibrous drag washer housed within a shallow recess on the bottom of the heat-forged bronze main gear.
The main gear was free to spin about the sleeve, and deep upper recess which housed a second drag washer.
A thick top hat keyed to the gear shaft fit within the recessed main and rode directly on this upper washer.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/20170122_100309_zpsoa31t1dv.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/20170122_100309_zpsoa31t1dv.jpg.html)
There was a unique steel cam washer keyed to the gear sleeve above the top hat with 2 taller/peaks at 90 deg. to the handle arm.
A thick steel washer rode above the cam washer, and there was a thin steel washer directly above it.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/20170122_100358_zpslzle9ata.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/20170122_100358_zpslzle9ata.jpg.html)
The thick german silver cam lever rode on top of these washers. It was loosley connected to the gear shaft, but had a lever the extended outwards along the handle arm (directly above it), with a recessed hole that married to a screw. The screw was threaded through the handle arm and it had a coin-edged german silver dial with markings above. Pressure could be increased on the drag stack by tightening the handle screw. This pushed the lever downwards. Increased downwards distance by the screw, increased the angle of the lever which causes the metal washer to move downwards against the cam (which is cut to accept the angled lever and washer). The keyed gear shaft, and cam washer keep the handle arm and lever aligned so that pressure can be maintained, and adjysted via the screw.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/20170122_100944_zpsyeyqxmqp.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/20170122_100944_zpsyeyqxmqp.jpg.html)
This seems to me to be an interesting and somewhat ingenious drag adjustment design. It is curious that it was discontinued after a short time (~5 years), and replaced by the more popular (and simplier?) star drag. This unique handle arm drag screw design was never used on any other reels or by any other manufacturers.
Hope that makes sense?
John
That's top shelf cool John...thanks for posting! 8)
Very cool, John. This drag was just another way of applying pressure to the drag stack. I understand its short lifespan, it's not better than the star drag.
Sid
Very nice John, thanks for posting.
Here is a couple of shots of my Meisselbach, this one is missing the eccentric lever:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171146.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171146.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171155.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171155.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171209.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171209.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171223.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171223.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171256.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171256.jpg.html)
Sal
Quote from: sdlehr on January 22, 2017, 10:07:01 PM
Very cool, John. This drag was just another way of applying pressure to the drag stack. I understand its short lifespan, it's not better than the star drag.
Sid
Whether or not the design is
better may be up for debate Sid. The success of the star drag system is without a doubt unquestionable. So everyone who used it must have considered it
better in some way, shape, or form. But if you ignore its popularity, and widespread use, some other patented methods of applying and adjusting pressure on a drag stack housed in the main gear, may be worth exploring.
The adjustment on this system is much 'finer' then that afforded by a threaded star, and the markings provide a quick reference. The use of a lever to apply pressure to a cam washer, seems to me to actually takes advantage of basic physics here. The pressure applied at the end of the lever is amplified at the top of the stack. The 2 reel models that used this drag only produced 4-10lbs of drag or so, but I see no reason why this system couodn't have been used with affect on larger reels. The commonly encountered.. star binding on the sleeve due to high heat would not occur here. It, like many of the Miesselbach designs, was more complicated though.
Simplicity, and ease/cost of manufacturing won out during the era of prolonged economic depression leading up to the war.
I do wonder where this system, and others, might have been employed if General Industries Co. and the A.F. Meisselbach & Division had not been dissolved.The history of the Miesselbach saltwater reels, and the company's connection to Cozzone, and possibly Ocean City are interesting to me.*
*
It is widely accepted that Pliny Catucci was good friends with Mr. Cozzone and it is likely that his thinking and advice fed into the development of Miesselbach's saltwater line of reels. The later Cozzone-Ocean City connection then begs the question as to whether or not there was a Miesselbach-Ocean City connection at some point?Let me provide a bit gleaned from Phil White's Miesselbach books
(please excuse any mistakes, yhis was a quick-n-dirty recollection).
Some more Meisselbach History...The Miesselbach saltwater reels went through 3 eras.
First era (1910-1922)...Gus Miesselbach's one great passion was surf fishing and he aimed to develop top quality surf reels that bested the revered Julius Vom Hofe reels of the time. He He must have believed his company's designs were superior since the asking prices of his saltwater models were nearly
double those of Vom Hofe. Pliny Catucci, who worked for Meisselbach since ca. 1900, designed and patented many of the features of the saltwater line of reels. By the time the company moved to Newark NJ, the FreeSpool Surf reel had been through 4 different versions. 4 other models (Deep Sea, Marco Tarpon, Neptune, & Tournament Surf) were added in 1911, 1912, and 1916, and 1918 as well.
Second era (1923-1929)This era saw the reduction and refinement of the saltwater line of reels to include 3 models (Neptune, Triton, Surf). Production of the saltwater reel models during the Newark factory era increased. We know
5,205units of these 3 models were produced during the first 2 years (1922-23) alone.
Third era (1930-41)The financial uncertainty of this era led to decreased production, and using up all of the remaining parts stock. Production of the popular Neptune reel ceased in 1932, and the Surf in 1933. Two more cost effective models, the Sea Line, and The New Neptune emerged in 1931. The fancy handle arm drag adjustment was dropped on both models in 1934, and a new model (New Triton) was introduced in 1934. Production numbers from 1931 to 1935 were
1139Sea Line #75 reels produced, and
919 total New Neptune #85.
Despite shifting the focus to more cost effective reel designs (in the hopes of increased production, decreased unit price), total production of the remaining 2 Ohio Saltwater reel models decreased significantly to a mere
434total units in tye 1935-41 period.
Total production of the 4 Ohio Saltwater reel models from 1931-1941 period was
2,857. This may be in the 15-30% range (>10,000 estimated) of the total number of saltwater reels produced by the company during the previous decade.
The End or the Beginning?In a twist of irony...
The Miesselbach reel company was eventually merged with its saltwater reel competitors Vom Hoff, and Coxe under the Bronson Reel company
(who, by the way, largely discontinued saltwater reel production).The economic depression took its toll on the more expensive reels and the companies that had designed and produced them.
Pflueger and Ocean City, and their much larger production and diversity of reel models, weathered this period much better, but the reel winner in the saltwater reel game was Penn. They figured out how to offer more for less.
John
Quote from: Alto Mare on January 22, 2017, 10:23:40 PM
Very nice John, thanks for posting.
Here is a couple of shots of my Meisselbach, this one is missing the eccentric lever:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171146.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171146.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171155.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171155.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171209.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171209.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171223.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171223.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20170122_171256.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20170122_171256.jpg.html)
Sal
Sal,
I have one of those as well.
This is the
Free Spool Surf #50, which is the final version of the most popular saltwater reel produced by Miesselbach.
It was manufactured from 1918-1932. The later Ohio-produced reels (such as yours) substituted Bakelite for the hard rubber on the endplates. This model features a throw off push button on the headplate, and pulling the crank inwards re-engages the drive gear. It also has the popular quick Take-a-part mechanism, and the Miesselbach-specific automatic drag controlled by the button of the tailplate rim.
Seems Gus was obsessed with the idea of an automatic drag located on the tailplate end of the spool. It had tyevadvantage of only engaging when the spool was rotated backwards, and it automatically disengaged when cranking the spool forwards.
There were >1800 units produced during the 1922-23 period so it was likely the second most produced Meisselbach saltwater reel (after the much smaller Neptune).
Thanks for sharing!
John
Thanks for the info John.
Sal
Great history lesson here. These old companies had great designs that they were sharing with each other or stealing from each other on a regular basis.
They have very rich history back to the turn of the 20th century and even before. Excellent research and development and finely made products. Penn came along in the heat of the Depression with a new idea. Make a simple product that could be sold to the masses. The other makers like Ocean City and Pflueger tried to compete in the saltwater industry but their products were more costly to make. Ironically, Penn was the new kid on the block and outlasted them all. Funny how that happened, especially concerning Ocean City. Their company history began under the Ocean City name in 1923; but their parent companies go back into the 19th Century. They even trained Otto and then he leaves and destroys them in the market place. That was really rude!!! ;D
Thank you for the write-up, history and photos John. A great addition to what was already a great thread. Makes you realize that the star is just one way to skin a cat.
A question for you guys on the Surf 50 tail plate drag. This is a cast control drag, right? Not a fish fighting drag? Is the drag slider putting pressure on the clicker ratchet, the spool shaft or is there a special drum for the drag? Also, is it a all-or-none thing or can the pressure be adjusted.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on January 23, 2017, 10:23:23 AM
Thank you for the write-up, history and photos John. A great addition to what was already a great thread. Makes you realize that the star is just one way to skin a cat.
A question for you guys on the Surf 50 tail plate drag. This is a cast control drag, right? Not a fish fighting drag? Is the drag slider putting pressure on the clicker ratchet, the spool shaft or is there a special drum for the drag? Also, is it a all-or-none thing or can the pressure be adjusted.
-steve
Great question Steve!
The drag option was available on several different saltwater models over the years, and varied slightly from model-to-model. The basic concept was to provide an antireverse tied to a simple drag on the tailplate side. The simpliest one I have is on my Neptune. There is a honed steel disc on the tailplate side of the spool. Then a composite drag disc that rotates freely, then a metal disc with 2 teeth at 180 deg. apart. The throwoff switch on the tailplate rim activates a dog through a series of springs that will catch the outter disc when the spool is rotated clockwise/line is paid out. The disc stops but the spool can rotate against a set pressure/friction on both sides of the drag disc. The drag is basically preset at a given tension, and csn either be on or off.
The larger surf 50 has a series of 3 metal discs with fins on them (maybe to dissipate heat) with drag discs sandwhiched between. This reel produces nearly 3Xs the drag of the smaller Neptune.
A few more pics...
2 more...
The drag and antireverse functions are integrated together, and the drag is automatic when engaged. I don't believe it was ever adjustable.
Some models did have adjustable, 2 position clickers that were actually softer when reeling in, and louder when line paid out (under drag).
I have never tried to disassemble these mechanisms, but I might try on my surf reel sometime.
John