Guys,
I was surfing eBay and saw something I had never noticed before . . .
QUESTION : Did the Gear Ratio change between the 2nd Gen 650 SS (4.8:1 ) and the 3rd Gen 6500 SS ( 4.7:1 ) ? ? ?
I saw these images on eBay, all carrying the same Part #, but with different ratio's on them . . . Also, Mystic Reel Parts (MysticParts.com) does not indicate a change and implies that the gears are interchangeable.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8-650.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8-650.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8N-6500.aspx/url] (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8N-6500.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/ReelSpecs/PennSS.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/ReelSpecs/PennSS.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/ReelSpecs/Penn00SS.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/ReelSpecs/Penn00SS.aspx)
Of course, if changing out both the Pinion and Main Gear (I always do gears in "sets" ), then I would expect them to "fit", albeit with a slightly different ratio . . .
Thoughts ? ? ?
Thanks, in advance . . . Tight Lines ! ! !
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/vr0AAOSwPYZU~06-/$_57.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/SEMAAOSwZjJU~1Ar/$_57.JPG)
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
I tried that with a 6500 Dave. It didn't work. In this particular spinner. The bearings are different and the gears don't fit. In a 7500 and up, you can swap the alloy gears out with a new brass main and pinion.
As you can see, the bearings are different sizes, which means the case is different and a different handle will be required as well.
To substitute a bearing that will make all this work. Well, I can't find one. 8 x 17
The 650 also has a different rotor design than the 6500. The 650 has a keyed ratchet. The bigger ss spinners have the ratchet sitting on the rotor itself. It was just too big of a design change to make it work. So I threw in the towel.
I've been looking at the schematics for both reels . . . I must be going crazy, because they look the same to me.
With your previous work on this, what changes were actually made ? Do the schematics just not show the difference(s) ?
I attached the schematics for both the 650SS and the 6500SS below . . .
Thanks !
Go ahead and give it a try Dave. My reels might be different. I got the brass gears from Alan Himself. You can see the difference in the size of the bearings and the gear, hence the cases are different as well, so the correct bearings will fit each of them. Short of switching out the entire case or finding the right bearings. I couldn't make it work.. Here is the thread.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=11971.0
I have a 650SS, but not a 6500SS . . . I just noticed the difference in labeling on the Gear Ratio ( 4.7 vs. 4.8 ) and was curious.
Do you think the 6500SS was an "improvement" over the 650SS or more aimed at cost-cutting ?
Thanks !
I gotcha Dave. I misunderstood. I know the 6500 has one improvement over the 650 as in a beefier handle pivot. I would say the alloy gear was definitely a cost saving measure, but they do things that I don't understand. Such as replacing the brass main with alloy, but the oscillator is brass? The brass main usually has an alloy oscillating gear. I still love the penn ss just the same. They are great reels.!
Quote from: ez2cdave on June 12, 2015, 10:40:43 PM
I have a 650SS, but not a 6500SS . . . I just noticed the difference in labeling on the Gear Ratio ( 4.7 vs. 4.8 ) and was curious.
Do you think the 6500SS was an "improvement" over the 650SS or more aimed at cost-cutting ?
Thanks !
I believe it was because of the last part of your comment.
This is why I couldn't find a 6500 anywhere ;D, but then I remembered I had one that needed some work.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/020_9.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/020_9.jpg.html)
It isn't just about the labeling, the ID on the bearing on the 6500 is about 1/16 larger.
Also, the bearing on the 6500 gets installed from the inner side of the cover plate, on the 650, it gets installed from the outer side.
If the cover plates where of the same dimensions, you would have been able to swap them to make the gear work. Unfortunately, the 650 plate is smaller, as you could see below
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/024_7.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/024_7.jpg.html)
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 13, 2015, 12:14:47 AMI believe it was because of the last part of your comment. This is why I couldn't find a 6500 anywhere ;D, but then I remembered I had one that needed some work.
It isn't just about the labeling, the ID on the bearing on the 6500 is about 1/16 larger.
Also, the bearing on the 6500 gets installed from the inner side of the cover plate, on the 650, it gets installed from the outer side.
If the cover plates where of the same dimensions, you would have been able to swap them to make the gear work. Unfortunately, the 650 plate is smaller, as you could see below
Sal
Sal,
That really made it "crystal clear" for me. Now, I understand the difference(s) between the "2nd Gen" 650SS and the "3rd Gen" 6500SS.
I wonder if the 6500SS is the only reel in the "OO" series vs. the "O" series that holds true for ?
Thanks !
Dave
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 12, 2015, 11:46:52 PM
I gotcha Dave. I misunderstood. I know the 6500 has one improvement over the 650 as in a beefier handle pivot. I would say the alloy gear was definitely a cost saving measure, but they do things that I don't understand. Such as replacing the brass main with alloy, but the oscillator is brass? The brass main usually has an alloy oscillating gear. I still love the penn ss just the same. They are great reels.!
Shark Hunter,
I just attached a PDF of your thread on the 650SS vs 6500SS compatibility here on this thread.
THANKS ! ! !
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 12, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
I tried that with a 6500 Dave. It didn't work. In this particular spinner. The bearings are different and the gears don't fit. In a 7500 and up, you can swap the alloy gears out with a new brass main and pinion.
As you can see, the bearings are different sizes, which means the case is different and a different handle will be required as well.
To substitute a bearing that will make all this work. Well, I can't find one. 8 x 17
The 650 also has a different rotor design than the 6500. The 650 has a keyed ratchet. The bigger ss spinners have the ratchet sitting on the rotor itself. It was just too big of a design change to make it work. So I threw in the towel.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_2604_zpsc1c2db79.jpg)
Just found out the reason why it won't work, nothing to do with
the bearings they are the same part number 20A in both the 6500ss
and the 650ss, the problem lies in 2 parts,
1. The side plate has a different part number
2. The housing has a different part number.
For this reason it won't work.
Darren you mentioned the rotor cup is different but i just took
my 6500ss apart for spares for 650ss coming and under
the rotor cup it reads/ 27-650.
The handle, side plate, housing and main gear seem to be
the only change from 650ss-6500ss, if it has the same part number
between the 650ss-6500ss for them reels only it must fit.
I have around £120 in spare parts that will fit my 650ss coming.
My 750ss's and my 850ss have the original part for the bronze
crosswind gear.
These reels are 25+ years old so parts that some have in there reels
might not be the original part, if you own a 6500ss reel you will find
the part number came first from the 650ss, the only changes i see
are the main gear (one handle/pivot can be used left hand or right hand crank
with no change to pivot. The side plate and housing is a different
part number.
So in a nut shell order by part number for your original reel
and whether it's a 650ss, 6500s etc it must fit, but trying
to get the gearing to work it ain't going to happen
cause one is going against the grain so to speak.
Can't wait to get my reel ive a bronze crosswind gear
to go in to it out of my 6500ss, but you never know
i could open her up and i could have a spare, part will
fit though as it was put in the very first 650ss's as it was
in the 750ss's and 850ss'ss.
Quote from: Fisherman Paul on February 29, 2016, 02:59:40 PMJust found out the reason why it won't work, nothing to do with the bearings they are the same part number 20A in both the 6500ss and the 650ss, the problem lies in 2 parts,
1. The side plate has a different part number
2. The housing has a different part number.
For this reason it won't work.
Thanks for the input !!!
Quote from: Fisherman Paul on February 29, 2016, 04:45:37 PM
Darren you mentioned the rotor cup is different but i just took
my 6500ss apart for spares for 650ss coming and under
the rotor cup it reads/ 27-650.
The handle, side plate, housing and main gear seem to be
the only change from 650ss-6500ss, if it has the same part number
between the 650ss-6500ss for them reels only it must fit.
I have around £120 in spare parts that will fit my 650ss coming.
My 750ss's and my 850ss have the original part for the bronze
crosswind gear.
These reels are 25+ years old so parts that some have in there reels
might not be the original part, if you own a 6500ss reel you will find
the part number came first from the 650ss, the only changes i see
are the main gear (one handle/pivot can be used left hand or right hand crank
with no change to pivot. The side plate and housing is a different
part number.
So in a nut shell order by part number for your original reel
and whether it's a 650ss, 6500s etc it must fit, but trying
to get the gearing to work it ain't going to happen
cause one is going against the grain so to speak.
Can't wait to get my reel ive a bronze crosswind gear
to go in to it out of my 6500ss, but you never know
i could open her up and i could have a spare, part will
fit though as it was put in the very first 650ss's as it was
in the 750ss's and 850ss'ss.
Paul,
Post up some pics, as you work on your reel . . .
Tight Lines !
You won't notice a 4.7 vs a 4.8 gear ratio when using the reel.... I'm wondering if they are the same (count gear teeth and divide main/pinion), but rounded up in one reel and down in the other???
Sid
Guys think about it, when ordering a part it goes on part number
for that reel, up the page the chap has the drawings with part number
take a closer look you will see the guts of the parts have the same
part number, but also look at the parts that don't, its the parts that
are different you want to be looking at, well care full of.
The guts of parts for a 6500ss will be stamped/parts 650 well mine are
as you will see from the drawings above, thats why part 24-750
fitted my 750ss, it is the same part thats in your 7500ss reels but was also in the very
first 750ss's hence the part number.
Its the parts that don't match up you have to be carefull off
as it won't work but the same part 0 or 00 will.
If i get a chance to take pics i sure will.
Quote from: sdlehr on February 29, 2016, 05:02:55 PM
You won't notice a 4.7 vs a 4.8 gear ratio when using the reel.... I'm wondering if they are the same (count gear teeth and divide main/pinion), but rounded up in one reel and down in the other???
Sid
53 / 11 on the 650 SS = 4.818 (52 / 11 = 4.727, but I count 53 teeth on the Brass gear in the pic in this thread)
34 / 7 of the 6500 SS = 4.857 ("34" count is "estimated" , as part of the Alloy gear is blocked in the pic in this thread)
Can someone "double-check" me, please ?
Tight Lines !
Quote from: ez2cdave on February 29, 2016, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on February 29, 2016, 05:02:55 PM
You won't notice a 4.7 vs a 4.8 gear ratio when using the reel.... I'm wondering if they are the same (count gear teeth and divide main/pinion), but rounded up in one reel and down in the other???
Sid
53 / 11 on the 650 SS = 4.818 (52 / 11 = 4.727, but I count 53 teeth on the Brass gear in the pic in this thread)
34 / 7 of the 6500 SS = 4.857 ("34" count is "estimated" , as part of the Alloy gear is blocked in the pic in this thread)
Can someone "double-check" me, please ?
Tight Lines !
Dave, if you have a look at the 650ss v 6500ss parts diagram in page 1
of your blog its all there buddy re-part number, if it has the same part
number it will fit, what im saying is there is no such thing as part 6500ss
bar the different part numbers, you will find 96% of the 650ss parts
are the same for the 6500ss not the other way round, the 650ss came first
2nd gen, 6500ss next 3rd generation.
The only change re-part number buddy is the gear change hence the different
part number for the pivot/main gear/side plate and housing, if you look
you will see this in the 650ss drawing/parts, now look at the 6500ss drawing/parts
you will see the answer to your question.
All my reels are done by part number, no need for pics.
Quote from: Fisherman Paul on February 29, 2016, 07:32:56 PM
Quote from: ez2cdave on February 29, 2016, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on February 29, 2016, 05:02:55 PM
You won't notice a 4.7 vs a 4.8 gear ratio when using the reel.... I'm wondering if they are the same (count gear teeth and divide main/pinion), but rounded up in one reel and down in the other???
Sid
53 / 11 on the 650 SS = 4.818 (52 / 11 = 4.727, but I count 53 teeth on the Brass gear in the pic in this thread)
34 / 7 of the 6500 SS = 4.857 ("34" count is "estimated" , as part of the Alloy gear is blocked in the pic in this thread)
Can someone "double-check" me, please ?
Tight Lines !
Dave, if you have a look at the 650ss v 6500ss parts diagram in page 1
of your blog its all there buddy re-part number, if it has the same part
number it will fit, what im saying is there is no such thing as part 6500ss
bar the different part numbers, you will find 96% of the 650ss parts
are the same for the 6500ss not the other way round, the 650ss came first
2nd gen, 6500ss next 3rd generation.
The only change re-part number buddy is the gear change hence the different
part number for the pivot/main gear/side plate and housing, if you look
you will see this in the 650ss drawing/parts, now look at the 6500ss drawing/parts
you will see the answer to your question.
All my reels are done by part number, no need for pics.
Right . . . I was just noting the big difference in the "tooth count" between the 4.7:1 Brass Gears and the 4.8:1 Alloy Gears. I prefer the Brass Gears.
Quote from: ez2cdave on February 29, 2016, 07:48:51 PM
Quote from: Fisherman Paul on February 29, 2016, 07:32:56 PM
Quote from: ez2cdave on February 29, 2016, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on February 29, 2016, 05:02:55 PM
You won't notice a 4.7 vs a 4.8 gear ratio when using the reel.... I'm wondering if they are the same (count gear teeth and divide main/pinion), but rounded up in one reel and down in the other???
Sid
53 / 11 on the 650 SS = 4.818 (52 / 11 = 4.727, but I count 53 teeth on the Brass gear in the pic in this thread)
34 / 7 of the 6500 SS = 4.857 ("34" count is "estimated" , as part of the Alloy gear is blocked in the pic in this thread)
Can someone "double-check" me, please ?
Tight Lines !
Dave, if you have a look at the 650ss v 6500ss parts diagram in page 1
of your blog its all there buddy re-part number, if it has the same part
number it will fit, what im saying is there is no such thing as part 6500ss
bar the different part numbers, you will find 96% of the 650ss parts
are the same for the 6500ss not the other way round, the 650ss came first
2nd gen, 6500ss next 3rd generation.
The only change re-part number buddy is the gear change hence the different
part number for the pivot/main gear/side plate and housing, if you look
you will see this in the 650ss drawing/parts, now look at the 6500ss drawing/parts
you will see the answer to your question.
All my reels are done by part number, no need for pics.
Right . . . I was just noting the big difference in the "tooth count" between the 4.7:1 Brass Gears and the 4.8:1 Alloy Gears. I prefer the Brass Gears.
So do i Dave, taking out the crap white metal crosswind gear out
of the 0ss reels and putting in the bronze one (same part number)
it is an awesome reel, difference is staggering.
For example, new old stock, notice it starts with 650ss then says 6500ss.
If you go to his other items for sale you wil see a rotor head for sale,
notice again how it says new old stock and says 650ss then says 6500ss,
now look as shown part number under cup 27-650-1 not 27-6500-1
and so on.
All parts for an original 6500ss will have 96% approx off 650ss parts.
Trying to put a 650ss gear set up in to a 6500ss reel will not work
but every other part number match will fit in a 6500ss
reel in to a 650ss reel as its an 650ss part ;)
Im only talking original reels here. Yep having the 3 bronze gears
in these 0ss reels is some engineering.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PENN-SPINFISHER-650SS-6500SS-NOS-MINT-SPOOL-SHAFT-SPINNING-REEL-PART-39-650-USA-/371563948146?hash=item5682efe872:g:UEwAAOSwX~dWjFPU
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PENN-SPINFISHER-650SS-6500SS-NOS-MINT-SPINNING-REEL-ROTATING-HEAD-PART-27-650-/371563948059?hash=item5682efe81b:g:PsEAAOSwGotWjXKF
Wow, 650ss reel arrived this morning, opened her up
oh what a lucky boy, 3 bronze gears looking right at me,
reel could pass as new not a mark, will put up pics later on.
What a find.
Quote from: Fisherman Paul on March 01, 2016, 10:42:31 AM
Wow, 650ss reel arrived this morning, opened her up
oh what a lucky boy, 3 bronze gears looking right at me,
reel could pass as new not a mark, will put up pics later on.
What a find.
WOO-HOO . . . PICS ! ! !
Nice, Paul --
Looking forward to seeing it after you get it prepped and serviced properly.
Best,
Fred