What modern bait casters (round or low profile) are built to last, for example don't use plastic wear parts in the drive train, excluding the level wind? I'm looking for something that can hold about 135 or so yards of 15 lb mono.
Rant:
This comes up because the pinion gear on my current reel ate the plastic yoke. The reel is an Abu Garcia RCN-5600 Record (small Ambassadeur) that is less than two years old and has not been fished to death. I've used it only for fluke and scup. This failure is a known issue with some Abu Garcia reels. See http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=11681.0 and http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14029.0, for example. I really do get it, that marketing and engineering involve cost/benefit trade-offs, but this design is unacceptable on a $200 reel. Fabricating a better yoke is not something I am set up to do, and there are other plastic parts in the reel that look questionable.
Whatever I work out with Pure Fishing, I may replace this reel. Too bad, because it fishes really well, or did before imploding.
Mike
Daiwa Luna 300. Click on my site's link below and read all about it.
Thanks. I prefer centrifugal brakes to mag, based on my experience with an Avet MXL MC.
Actually, the 300 size is centrifugal.
Penn Fathom 12. Dont know what price range your into. I can also recommend the Okuma Komodo 350 or 364 these are in my mind benchmark low profile baitcasters. My 364 has brought some large fish to the bank. Maybe a little bigger than what you want but will cast as well or better than the 5600. They are also much more sturdy reels. The Andros 5 narrow deserve a look also. Few look at the Andros for this class but I find it very worthy for line below 20 lbs.
These reels may be a step or two above what your looking at with more capacity. However their durability is why I've started using them for light line & staying away from newer Abu reels & other bait casters in their class.
Thanks, but these reels are all bigger than what I want. The application is casting artificials 1 to 3 oz. max and very light bottom fishing. The Komodo 253 and 274 look interesting. Any idea what the internals look like? "Aluminum gears" sounds a little suspicious.
BTW, spinners don't cut it for me, or I wouldn't have asked.
Mike
I like the Daiwa Lexa series. Very strong reels but may be too big for you.
daiwa lexa 300
daiwa lexa 400
curado 300
calcutta 300TE
cardiff 300
those are proven reels
Aluminum gears doesnt sound good. I agree with the other post about the lexa. Dont fish them but two friends have them in different sizes fish them through out the week every week & have had no issues with them.
Interesting post.
For many reasons (Read stubborn and stupid) I would like to stick bait using an overhead reel.
For me, a Thousand dollar Stella is out of the question. SO I am looking at a baitcaster or level wind conventional option.
I see in descending order of cost/quality the TranxHG, The Lexa 400/Revo 60HS Then the Revo 50/Lexa300/Komodo/Curado
But.....
The TranX looks to cost more than I can justify. The use of double dogs is a plus but beyond that I see a brass gear with very shallow teeth. As to how this costs 30% or more than the Lexa/Abu does I am stumped.
The Abu and Lexa are very similar and I cant separate them in the abstract
But all of them have plastic doohickeys like the pinion lifter. As do the higher end Abu conventionals and my Akios conventional from memory.
As these aren't critical to the drag chain what chance of failure do they likely have outside of catastrophic failure elsewhere?
Is your experience typical or not?
I'm with you. I'd hate to buy a dog and know I paid a bunch for it. But what are the options?
Thanks for the replies. The Komodo 273V looks like a good fit, and can be had for about $140. But I am skeptical about aluminum gears, and it turns out that the pinion yoke is plastic. (All of the low profile reels I looked into have plastic yokes). I will probably just save the price of another reel, keep the Abu, and replace a couple of $3 parts every year. If Pure Fishing has a fix for the wear issue, I will share it.
Mike
Plastic LW idler gears are to keep someone from loosing a finger.
Plastic definitely has a place in modern reel design and is preferable to metal in some applications. I service a lot of baitcasters (mostly Shimano's) and have yet to see a problem with the pinion yoke. Can't help but think there is something else going on here.
Stay away from Okumas. Both Daiwa and Shimano have quality models if you wanna ante up. My choice would ba a Daiwa Zillion or similar amongst low profile reels. I am wary of Revos after seeing quite a few frames with bubbling finishes.
Sure, plastic has its applications, and idler gears are one of the important ones. In my Abu, the brass pinion reamed out the plastic pinion yoke. I don't see how the mechanism could be durable, at least with the shape of this pinion.
Pure fishing sent me a part #1224665 to put between the pinion and replacement yoke. They call it a "fender." It is basically a 2/3 circumference, thin stainless washer that goes around the neck of the pinion and shims the pinion away from direct contact with the bottom of the yoke. The missing segment of the circle is to allow clearance for the main gear. I will post a picture later.
The fender is a standard part on another reel, but not the RCN-5600. It will be interesting to see how things stand up.
Quote from: mike1010 on July 14, 2015, 05:46:13 PM
Sure, plastic has its applications, and idler gears are one of the important ones. In my Abu, the brass pinion reamed out the plastic pinion yoke. I don't see how the mechanism could be durable, at least with the shape of this pinion.
Pure fishing sent me a part #1224665 to put between the pinion and replacement yoke. They call it a "fender." It is basically a 2/3 circumference, thin stainless washer that goes around the neck of the pinion and shims the pinion away from direct contact with the bottom of the yoke. The missing segment of the circle is to allow clearance for the main gear. I will post a picture later.
The fender is a standard part on another reel, but not the RCN-5600. It will be interesting to see how things stand up.
Yeah this sounds familiar. Think I have seen this in some older ABU's?
Just spit balling here but, what about Penn reels I'm sure there are plenty of older Penn's here that you could purchase for under $120.00 that will last a lifetime. ???
I have this reel don't use it much. Look foreword to seeing pics.
Quote from: Reel 224 on July 14, 2015, 06:37:40 PM
Just spit balling here but, what about Penn reels I'm sure there are plenty of older Penn's here that you could purchase for under $120.00 that will last a lifetime. ???
Joe, the Penn #9 is the right size, but it doesn't cast well. I don't know of any Penn baitcaster that would work well in this application, throwing light bucktails. If somebody does know of one, I would be interested.
I won't go through a whole teardown, as Alan covers most of that in his thread on the Record 60, http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=27.0. AFAIK, the only differences in the Record 60 generation reels and the newer generation including the RCN-5600 are the frame (stainless in the old, aluminum in the new) and the fact that the 60 generation lacks AR dogs, which are present in current RCNs.
I was alerted to the problem when the reel became difficult to get into freespool. Here is the reel.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rdxmvwdpbxbcxz/IMG_20150715_130533406_zpstrl3xuux.jpg?dl=1)
To get the yoke and pinion out, first remove the gear post, then the part that has the finger springs, some kind of "locator", I think. Abu Garcia schematics lack part names. The locator just pops off a couple of friction fit posts. See the AR dog, which you won't find on the 60 or other Records of that vintage.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/oi79jr6nwgmqtoj/IMG_20150715_131327034_zps6uykkjsg.jpg?dl=1)
This spring in the locator is part of the freespool mechanism. I don't know if it is stainless, so I will hit it with grease before things go back together.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/csc1zkoymyq4msm/IMG_20150715_131551219_zpsilimmbvz.jpg?dl=1)
Here are some pictures of a new yoke (top) and the worn one (bottom). The damage appears to be exclusively to the inside diameter. This matters if the fender is going to fix the problem. The little hangnail on the old yoke looks to be from contact with the main gear, which a little surprising, but probably harmless.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qr60cpwurf5rfcl/IMG_20150713_153438314_zpsj65parwx.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9d98e0f27wwjax1/IMG_20150713_153428114_HDR_zpswdryytu0.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/upg6fez7nwl0t1l/IMG_20150713_153415038_zpssurc7emn.jpg?dl=1)
Here are the pinion and a "fender." The fender slips onto the neck of the pinion. Earlier I wrote that the open segment of the fender is for main gear clearance. That is false. It is to allow it to fit over the pinion neck.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/u2f9sjwlqpobup6/IMG_20150715_131812004_zpshylfxffa.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ywy0onmhqkuqhbh/IMG_20150715_131901436_zpsskyjoc43.jpg?dl=1)
The pinion neck then fits into the yoke.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pl412nmn22u5ix/IMG_20150713_154524678_zpsgey4oaxt.jpg?dl=1)
The bottom of the brake plate (Abu Garcia-speak) with the yoke back in place.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/wm6io4mmyo8w9iz/IMG_20150715_132526095_zpshscgg5ir.jpg?dl=1)
The fender will stay in place, according to Sonny, a very helpful Abu Garcia reel tech. If so, I can believe the fender should prevent the pinion from incrementally chewing away the inside diameter of the yoke.
I actually like Abu Garcia reels and owned about 3 of them for fresh water fishing, and like you said about casting light tackle they are great. I gave mine to my son when I stopped fishing fresh water. I like the Penn 200 that I have and it will cast light tackle, but the drawback is no level wind and the 200 spool is a bit wide, narrowed down I think it would be a good choice...Penn does make level wind reels, I'm just not familiar with them.
Yeah, I have half a dozen ABU's myself. The 5500s get the most use from the kayak. I have caught 7 foot sharks with these so I am still trying to figure this one out because I have never seen this before.
I always thought that this generation design is pretty good stuff.
I wonder if the yoke is hanging on something short of it's full travel or if incorrect parts are involved?
Nothing casts like an ABU when it comes to light gear. Something like a Curado may be a viable substitute.?
Quote from: Reel 224 on July 15, 2015, 11:02:07 PM
I actually like Abu Garcia reels and owned about 3 of them for fresh water fishing, and like you said about casting light tackle they are great. I gave mine to my son when I stopped fishing fresh water. I like the Penn 200 that I have and it will cast light tackle, but the drawback is no level wind and the 200 spool is a bit wide, narrowed down I think it would be a good choice...Penn does make level wind reels, I'm just not familiar with them.
Joe, I have a 100 made by narrowing a 200. Great reel, but too big and slow to replace the Abu.
Quote from: mike1010 on July 16, 2015, 01:27:59 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on July 15, 2015, 11:02:07 PM
I actually like Abu Garcia reels and owned about 3 of them for fresh water fishing, and like you said about casting light tackle they are great. I gave mine to my son when I stopped fishing fresh water. I like the Penn 200 that I have and it will cast light tackle, but the drawback is no level wind and the 200 spool is a bit wide, narrowed down I think it would be a good choice...Penn does make level wind reels, I'm just not familiar with them.
Joe, I have a 100 made by narrowing a 200. Great reel, but too big and slow to replace the Abu.
Gotcha and you are right there is a definite difference in reels, wish I could be of better assistance, but that's all Ive got. Sorry :) What's the saying? "Can't make a silk purse from a sows ear".
Quote from: exp2000 on July 16, 2015, 11:15:44 AM
I wonder if the yoke is hanging on something short of it's full travel or if incorrect parts are involved?
Hanging would be obvious at the thumb bar, so I don't think that's the issue. The parts idea is interesting, but I don't think that's it either, for the following reasons. The yoke moves the sum of the height of two sets of ramps: one on the yoke, one on what I think is called the actuator arm. I've seen three yokes, and the ramps are all the same. The height of the ramps on the actuator arm is limited by the clearance under the locator piece, and there does not appear to be any headroom. I've seen three locators, and they are all the same.
Another possibility is that the finger springs are applying too much tension. I would bend them up a little, but I do want to fish this reel and not have the pinion fail to engage.
Remember that this problem was familiar to the Abu reel techs, and they had a fix/workaround ready.
QuoteHere are some pictures of a new yoke (top) and the worn one (bottom). The damage appears to be exclusively to the inside diameter. This matters if the fender is going to fix the problem. The little hangnail on the old yoke looks to be from contact with the main gear, which a little surprising, but probably harmless.
This might be your clue. The yoke should never contact the maingear - ever. Doing so may cause it to jam mid-travel. It would definitely impede the free travel of the yoke requiring undue force on the pinion to complete.
It seems to me that something is not standard here. I would definitely be looking for incorrect parts at this point. You really need an original reel that works correctly for comparison. Looks like the usual generic ABU mechanism so any contemporary working 5000 series reel sgould do. I bet something will stand out like dogs bollocks. It may not be completely hanging but it is obviously fouling.
Sorry Mike. Seems we are crossing posts. Just acknowledging your last one and modified my reply.
The fact that many thousands of reels with this design never experience this issue and operate correctly suggests that something is wrong here.
Since you are the one with the reel, you are the one best qualified to determine this. Having been involved in the odd Sherlock Holmes mystery myself, I know it can take some time to solve. Hope my approach can be of some help.`
Quote from: exp2000 on July 16, 2015, 01:48:00 PM
QuoteHere are some pictures of a new yoke (top) and the worn one (bottom). The damage appears to be exclusively to the inside diameter. This matters if the fender is going to fix the problem. The little hangnail on the old yoke looks to be from contact with the main gear, which a little surprising, but probably harmless.
This might be your clue. The yoke should never contact the maingear - ever. Doing so may cause it to jam mid-travel. It would definitely impede the free travel of the yoke requiring undue force on the pinion to complete.
It seems to me that something is not standard here. I would definitely be looking for incorrect parts at this point. You really need an original reel that works correctly for comparison. Looks like the usual generic ABU mechanism so any contemporary working 5000 series reel sgould do. I bet something will stand out like dogs bollocks. It may not be completely hanging but it is obviously fouling.
You're right. The yoke/main gear contact is probably significant, and I dismissed it too casually. Now I need to find a working reel to look at. It might be a while before I have any new findings to report.
I never heard "stand out like dogs bollocks" before. Good one. Thanks for that and for the help.
Looking at the Brass Fender and what it does will tell us what the problem might be...
The way that the Main and Pinion is cut is such that it "drives" the pinion into gear (force in the opposite direction of the travel when you pop it out of gear). The fender is preventing the Pinion Gear from being driven into the yoke. A traditional yoke does not ever have this trouble as the flat metal surface is impervious.
Here it seems a case where the tolerance of the reel is ever so slightly off on the spool pin that seats in the pinion letting the pinion travel a tiny bit too far and bite the yoke. If you put the spool pin in the spool shaft a thousandths or so off you might have this trouble (?). Or perhaps the mold of the yoke is off in some slight way and the lip is too thick. If the reel uses a unique yoke remolding one to the right spec is a very expensive problem.
Just some ideas as to what you might investigate. Certainly this fender is cheaper than new spools or molds :D.
Quote from: johndtuttle on July 17, 2015, 06:38:49 PM
...
Here it seems a case where the tolerance of the reel is ever so slightly off on the spool pin that seats in the pinion letting the pinion travel a tiny bit too far and bite the yoke. If you put the spool pin in the spool shaft a thousandths or so off you might have this trouble (?). Or perhaps the mold of the yoke is off in some slight way and the lip is too thick. If the reel uses a unique yoke remolding one to the right spec is a very expensive problem.
Just some ideas as to what you might investigate. Certainly this fender is cheaper than new spools or molds :D.
If the spool were laterally displaced, might that not affect freespool? It is good on this reel. Should I be thinking more about excessive pressure from the finger springs?
There is some reason to question QC on these reels. This one is a warranty replacement. The first one had aluminum shavings in it, apparently left over from side plate manufacture.
BTW, the fender is stainless, despite its appearance in the pictures. Something about the lighting.
Quote from: mike1010 on July 17, 2015, 10:06:48 PM
Quote from: johndtuttle on July 17, 2015, 06:38:49 PM
...
Here it seems a case where the tolerance of the reel is ever so slightly off on the spool pin that seats in the pinion letting the pinion travel a tiny bit too far and bite the yoke. If you put the spool pin in the spool shaft a thousandths or so off you might have this trouble (?). Or perhaps the mold of the yoke is off in some slight way and the lip is too thick. If the reel uses a unique yoke remolding one to the right spec is a very expensive problem.
Just some ideas as to what you might investigate. Certainly this fender is cheaper than new spools or molds :D.
If the spool were laterally displaced, might that not affect freespool? It is good on this reel. Should I be thinking more about excessive pressure from the finger springs?
There is some reason to question QC on these reels. This one is a warranty replacement. The first one had aluminum shavings in it, apparently left over from side plate manufacture.
BTW, the fender is stainless, despite its appearance in the pictures. Something about the lighting.
No, the spool itself is not laterally displaced, merely (possibly) the spool pin slot could be machined ever so slightly too close to the spool. This has zero effect on free spool but affects the tolerance when the pinion seats. This is the pin that seats into the pinion gear and turns the spool.
If the spool pin (not shaft) is too close to the spool by a tiny bit then the main gear drives the pinion too far and it bites the yoke which can only go so far to get out of the way.
Conversely, if the lip on the yoke is slightly too high then again the main gear will drive the pinion into it and cause it to bite. Its one or the other or a related issue.
Fundamentally the Pinion is biting the yoke and the yoke is not able to get out of the way like it should. If you trouble shoot around that issue you will find the problem.