Reel Repair by Alan Tani

I just had a decent fish pull free. My next cast I get snagged I go to pull it free & the handle goes knuckle buster.

I was planning on tearing into the reel tonight.
Both dawgs were on their pins but neither was under
spring tension. The pin the dawg in this pic was on was not seated flush but was out a bit tilted.  Both springs were not in their place. Checking drag prior I lifted 20 lbs. & more from the floor with reel on rod. No hint of an issue when doing this repeatedly.    

Any one have thoughts on this? Reel is brand new. I think I'll blame it on John for bringing up in my prior thread that this is the one area of this reel he wasn't fond of....He jinxed me  ;D  

Very simple, that reel can't handle the fish you're after. Get yourself a tank, well equipped, it will  give you 30lb of smooth drag.
The 113H would get the job done.
Sal

Come on now ;D

I think this reel has a reputation for doing well going after bigger stuff than I'll ever catch

Just ask Dominick. There is only one TANK! ;D
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii518/wdeutscher/Los%20Cabos%20Fathers%20Day%20Week%20June%202013/62326AA2-FC49-45E8-8CDD-FCEB1884D3CD_zpsea102b52.jpg) (http://s1257.photobucket.com/user/wdeutscher/media/Los%20Cabos%20Fathers%20Day%20Week%20June%202013/62326AA2-FC49-45E8-8CDD-FCEB1884D3CD_zpsea102b52.jpg.html)
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii518/wdeutscher/Los%20Cabos%20Fathers%20Day%20Week%20June%202013/735215A0-79DC-4CDB-8790-633C96942C1D_zps12d7335f.jpg) (http://s1257.photobucket.com/user/wdeutscher/media/Los%20Cabos%20Fathers%20Day%20Week%20June%202013/735215A0-79DC-4CDB-8790-633C96942C1D_zps12d7335f.jpg.html)

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 18, 2015, 12:48:28 AM
Come on now ;D

I think this reel has a reputation for doing well going after bigger stuff than I'll ever catch

Something you hooked was enough to damage the AR dogs.

Yep yer dogs just whooped!
Gotta get a bigger dog!

OK, I know of people catching fish on this reel 200 lbs. & more. I'm trying for 100.   The fish I had hooked did pull drag. But the question is why didnt the other dawg or dog come into play & do it's job.

Did you exceed the manufacturer-stated max drag of 27lbs?

If what you all are saying is true.....Well I'm starting to get annoyed with this reel situation.  I'm still wondering why the other dog didnt do it's job?

At times its not just about the dogs, I'm sure something else helped with those. Good idea to inspect everything else on that reel, maybe the gears locked up on you.
Its as a chain reaction, if the gears did freeze up on you, there are other components to look at, as drags, bearings and so on.
What I'm saying is that this might not be related to just the dogs. if it is a fluke and it happens to be just the dog, you didn't do too bad.

Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 18, 2015, 01:54:48 AM
Did you exceed the manufacturer-stated max drag of 27lbs?

I wasnt aware that you could on this reel. I believe, not for sure but I thought Steve Carson told me you could fish most all Penn star drags buttoned down stupid tight? I'm sure I could have tightened it more than it was. Why did the other dog not do it's job? Whats the purpose of having 2 dogs when only one fails & the reel goes knuckle buster.

Yes, I've heard of some locking down the star using pliers, but that was with the older Senators. These newer ones are not the same.
Did you take the reel completely apart?

YA'LL R A BUNCH OF RASCALS!  Stressing me all out like that.  

Sal I've got it apart now

Anti reverse gear looks flat with good teeth

just checked all the gears they look fine

One of the pins the dogs ride is taller that the other. The tall one was the one the bad dog rode on.

No, I didnt use pliers to tighten the drag

If all looks good, place a new dog in there and take it back fishing, that will tell the story.

Those dogs are injection molded metal, and i believe it's a pretty common failure on the Baja special.

Lee was having some dogs cut from stainless plate, which will be far stronger.

Sal, that looks like what I'm going to do. I had my drag set around 20 lbs. when I had that fish. Did not have a gob of line stripped from the reel. Just a very short spurt. I baited up tossed back out & immediately got snagged. Tightened the drag down pulled & I about went over backwards when the reel gave.
Only thing I have done to this reel prior to fishing it was testing the drag out & I messed around moving the gear box & handle in the different positions & trying out.

But what I find weird is that both springs were not in their proper position. I dont see how this would have caused the other spring on the good dog to come out of position. Ive not cleaned all the grease off the pinion yet. So I'll clean everything up really good so I can get a good look at it all tomorrow.

Like your saying maybe just a fluke. But after this it will be a bit before I truly trust this reel when I'm leaning on it. Much rather it be something wrong that I can fix.  

You beat me to it Adam. I was going to say. That dog can't be stainless to break like that.
My biggest fish was about 175lbs and The 12/0 had a stock brass dog and was pulling me a few steps. (The reel was John's)
I have Lee's dogs in all my reels.

Ya Daron it's pretty soft.

Well I'll look at again tomorrow. But right now looking at all the grease tracks & marks laid by moving parts stuff looks like its all lining up like it should.

Is this the New baja you just bought?
Or do you have. US senator (which is the same reel)

First, this is a very good reel -- only weak spot is the A/R mechanism.

For a quality reel designed to go after large fish -- they can put 8 dogs on this reel -- but since the dog material is moulded and not machined or cut -- it will fail.

The second bad thing, IMO, is the "floating dog system".  The tiny, weak dog springs are supposed to hold the dogs suspended above the bridge -- and keep constant contact the A/R wheel.  These springs are so weak, and mounted in such a way as to promote non contact and slop between the wheel, gear, springs, and dogs -- they are almost like an afterthought to accommodate the versa drag system requirements.  The result is slop and one of these items coming loose under heavy stress -- which in turn causes a chain reaction of failure in other components.

Every time I work on one of these Bajas or US Senators -- I marvel at how well they perform -- and am always promising myself to re-engineer the bridge, A/R dogs, springs, and ratchet.  Then it would be a perfect reel, IMO.  They just need better springs, SS dogs, solid spacers under the dogs to hold them in position. 

I do not know any repair folks who would not agree with this -- if they have ever had one of these apart -- then tried to get the bridge back in place without the springs coming off only once or twice, if your lucky -- before getting everything aligned.  Then, when everything is in place and fastened tight -- there can always be a movement, slop issue, or just cheap dog material to fail.

Some reels, such as Newells and others -- utilize C clips to keep these parts in place.

There is no better, or stronger reel anywhere in the world -- than one of Sal's "Tanks".

If manufacturers made tanks -- they would not be able to sell reels when they fail -- because tanks will not fail.

But they would not sell enough of the Tanks -- because, to the younger generation -- they are not cool -- they are old school.

Here is the last one I worked on for a friend, Wayne -- about a month and a half ago.

Now the drag is silky smooth with more pounds from drag off to full lock down.

Just really finicky reels that would be perfect with a better dog/spring, and solid dog placement system.

Best,

Fred

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx130/foakes1/D13323BC-9BF5-4FD2-9697-AD2EA44C892C_zpslwdjggsx.jpg) (http://s748.photobucket.com/user/foakes1/media/D13323BC-9BF5-4FD2-9697-AD2EA44C892C_zpslwdjggsx.jpg.html)

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 18, 2015, 02:59:21 AM



But this begs the question of why did Penn design this weakness into the reel?  

Maybe sacrificial parts :-\. Put lee's dogs in there and time will tell.
If it is a new reel, I'm not sure if any modifications would void the warranty.

I'm going to agree  on this one and maybe its a fluke. I do know the dogs are cast but I have a friend that has caught many, many bluefin  tuna in the 100/150 lb class with no problem. These fish are absolute beasts! There is no doubt that a solid SS dog would help and a better spring arrangement as Fred has said but as you know nothing is perfect!  Sal likes the tank and so do a lot of others, myself included. Basically on the tank you taking everything that was weak on the reel and adding better parts to make it near perfect. Pretty tough to beat but it wont be cheap!
........................Lou

  From Fred's in depth description of this being a weakness in this reel & reports from others of this being an issue. It will be a bit before I can trust this reel. When on the water I fish from a small boat & canoe. I dont drink any more. However I dont need a reel that afflicts me with the same symptoms  as the drink did. Which would be falling out of my boat & being slammed into the ground. Which this reel at present is capable of bringing about when leaned on heavily. 

This reel does sell. Charkbait goes through their inventory of them regularly. I think one can safely assume that the person that buys this reel has specific reason for doing so. What I'm getting at is I believe their would be a good level of interest in strengthening this area. I believe Sal's Tank has much merit. However I & others need what the Baja & US113 reel offers regarding it's free spool.

First order the pins that hold the dogs need to be stabilized. My thoughts are to braze or epoxy the pins in place. Would be as strong or most likely stronger than any threads. Worried about wear? The pins could be sleeved.     Fred & Sal, whoever else  I would really appreciate your thoughts on all this & moving forward what would be the best spring set up.
The big question can this issue be dealt with using the stock bridge? My thoughts are it can.

There is room for slightly taller pins. So a retaining clip could be used with different pins.

One of the biggest issues is the dogs are not making full contact with the gear. I'm thinking using shims/washers to alleviate this would be a huge, simple step in the right direction.

You can see in the posted pic there is a bit of clearance between the the dog & respective pins.

No wonder it failed, only half of the dog was working.  I'm thinking that ratchet is too thin, looks like a bad design to me. That ratchet needs to be  as thick as the dogs, they could hollow out the bottom center to make it work.
Sal

I am convinced at this point that this failure happened based on 2 reasons. 1: the soft material the dogs are made from 2: the inability of this set up to line up the dog & it's respective gear properly under stress.

I guess I am in essence agreeing with what Fred others have all ready stated about this reel.

Ya Sal, you can clearly see from my pic & on the anti reverse gear from wear marks that the dog is only making contact with 1/2 of the gear. Then to make matters worse the teeth on this gear have been beveled/radiased. Removing more precious needed contact between the two.  That right there I think is showing that some one is aware of an issue. Because if the dog stayed on the same plane as the gear there would be no need for doing this to help engagement of these two parts.  

Possibly the quick & simple fix is over sized, thicker dogs.   Made from better material.  Just thinking out loud as I go along here.

Quote from: steelfish on July 18, 2015, 05:57:25 AM
Is this the New baja you just bought?
Or do you have. US senator (which is the same reel)

Sorry, didnt catch your post until now. Yup it's my brand new Baja.

Sal, after some quick thoughts I believe your idea of a better ratchet gear is going to be the ultimate fix.

Meanwhile I think shimming with washers will help greatly. In the pic you can see there is plenty of room for washers & the dog is flush with top of pin.

I wish my pics would post right side up!

John brought up Abu style dogs. Sal I know you are not a fan of them. BUT that would work also.

A few months ago a friend of mine bought a new US 113 and asked me to service it before putting on the new rod that I built for him. I reported to you guys back then that I would not recommend that reel to anyone. Those dogs are tiny and the springs that work them are also tiny. It is not as tough as the old 113 and no where close to one of Sal's tanks.

Stop panicking.  ;D

The Baja Special design unchanged has landed many thousands of times the fish any "tanks" have. This is real world testing with hundreds of guys and reels and big fish. Thousands of roosters and far tougher fish have been landed by this design.

This older Baja Special has had some reports of deformation of the dog (I have seen 2, maybe 3), possibly a result of some error in the molding process...out of thousands sold.

Any reel mass produced will have occasional trouble.

I'll sick the Penn guys on this thread and my guess is they have a replacement dog from a known good batch sent out to you in a couple of days. If any redesign is necessary this Made in USA reel can be fixed nearly overnight. However, after selling a few thousand of them I am pretty sure Penn is comfortable with the design....though anything can be improved.

When I had mine apart I did wonder about the "balancy" nature of getting the dogs back on until the main gear acts as a stop on the studs.

But I promise you, deformation of the dog is a QC issue, not a fundamental problem, but overall the positioning of the dog could be more robust...the trouble is that you want them right under the main gear where the ratchet is, but you don't want anything to score the gear, so a retainer of some kind would have to take that into account.

Before I ever drink the Tank koolaid the problems with handle slop have to be addressed (like it is addressed in the Baja Special). Handle slop is gonna be a big problem at higher drag loads used on multiple fish over time.

Take a look at a Penn International 50W and see the frame and gears that Penn puts in a reel that is actually designed to hold up to 40lbs. See how much handle slop there is (zero). Handle slop = gear alignment slop. We are not talking about a little play of the handle on the stud in a tank based on a standard 113h. We are talking about an insufficient support of the stud that causes the gears to miss-align. This is because the standard Senator has no bearing support of the gear stud. The Baja Special/US Senator has two bearings to support the gear stud.

Real testing of a reel mod takes a lot more than a few fish. The jury is completely still out as to whether tanked up 113H will survive much higher than base drag year after year. After a few hundred guys report back their success we will have more information (like we do with the Baja).

The basic design of this dog and ratchet in the Baja Special is unchanged over something like 15 years in hundreds and hundreds of reels. I am pretty sure that Penn would have found any true trouble with it by now.

Newell Nut,
Yup, I read that thread. While I understand & agree with your points of complaint I do not at the same time wish to completely toss something that has some very redeeming merits.
In fact some of these merits are unmatched by any other reel made in it's class.
Because of this, for the time being, I choose to work with this reel & see what can be done to improve it...Jeff

I really like the Tank the whole idea of it & what Sal & others have accomplished with it. But there are valid reasons why the Baja/US113  are to be desired over the Tank. I believe Sal fully understands this.

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 18, 2015, 05:06:34 PM
Sal, after some quick thoughts I believe your idea of a better ratchet gear is going to be the ultimate fix.

Meanwhile I think shimming with washers will help greatly. In the pic you can see there is plenty of room for washers & the dog is flush with top of pin.

Taking a look at your picture I wonder if a simple fix (on the Penn side) might be flipping the ratchet over and press cutting it in the opposite direction.

Keta noted that the ratchet is "stamped" out and you can see the slight bending of the teeth with a rounded edge pointed down in the direction the dogs could float. If they only catch on the "tip" of one edge of the dog then a think we see some of the reported deformation.

If the rounded edge were on the gear side there might be better and more perfectly consistent engagement of the dog and ratchet.

Or, the shimming with washers :). This will make them even more balancy to get back on though. :D

I sent out a few water cut AR ratchets but as of now haven't heard back from the testers.  If I had a reel it would be easier.

Quote from: Keta on July 18, 2015, 09:45:15 PM
I sent out a few water cut AR ratchets but as of now haven't heard back from the testers.  If I had a reel it would be easier.

Send me your address Keta and I'll ship mine to you for testing.

The torque star series reels have similar AR ratchets.  I wonder if these might be susceptable to the same failure if the ARB fails.  May take several years until we see any issues here though. 

Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 18, 2015, 10:26:22 PM
The torque star series reels have similar AR ratchets.  I wonder if these might be susceptable to the same failure if the ARB fails.  May take several years until we see any issues here though. 

If you are referring to the current Torque reels then no, they do not use the same system. The older Torque reels may have, but all in all they have been extremely reliable.

My first  genTorque 300 did have trouble with it's AR and they were fixed by a change to the side plate but I never looked into the details of what the change was.

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 18, 2015, 06:34:45 PM

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 18, 2015, 05:06:34 PM

Meanwhile I think shimming with washers will help greatly. In the pic you can see there is plenty of room for washers & the dog is flush with top of pin.

Taking a look at your picture I wonder if a simple fix (on the Penn side) might be flipping the ratchet over and press cutting it in the opposite direction.

Keta noted that the ratchet is "stamped" out and you can see the slight bending of the teeth with a rounded edge pointed down in the direction the dogs could float. If they only catch on the "tip" of one edge of the dog then a think we see some of the reported deformation.

If the rounded edge were on the gear side there might be better and more perfectly consistent engagement of the dog and ratchet.

Or, the shimming with washers :). This will make them even more balancy to get back on though. :D

 

John I think this Idea of yours is a wonderful one regarding the ratchet gear. I had wrongly assumed the bevel or radius was put there & did not even  consider it was from being stamped.

I think a new ratchet, with the tooth count reduced to 16, and new dogs, all waterjet cut from stainless plate would be greatly increase the strength.  For most people, its probably not necessary.  But in riverrat's case, I think it the damage was cause by shock loading of the ratchet.  It may have been enough force to dislodge the ratchet a little as it started to catch, so only part of the dog was engaged with the ratchet.  The rounded profile of the ratchet from stamping exaggerates that problem. A few less teeth on a ratchet and no rolled edges would greatly improve the engagement between the dogs and the ratchet. 

Once we get it figured out you can do a production run.  The MKI Ratchet is 19T.

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 18, 2015, 11:15:32 PM
The torque star series reels have similar AR ratchets.  I wonder if these might be susceptable to the same failure if the ARB fails.  May take several years until we see any issues here though.  

John,
I was refering to the antireverse ratchet design.  It is thinner, a bit larger diameter, with similar shaped teeth and similar under gear spacing as what we see on the US113.  The dogs are of a different thickness, shape, material, and they are the silent tabbed type.  These reels also have the higher quality ARB and for all practicle purposes should not typically suffer ar system failures.  I am just saying the dogs and ratchet type alone are not one of my favorites.  The older senator style dogs, and ratchet are beefier and have a more soild engagement, despite the clickity-clack.  I like the removable ar ratchet design, but think it would benefit from being thicker, with sharper teeth.  I also prefer spring-loaded dogs (even with weaker springs) to the silent dog style.  Again, I am not saying the new Torques would be prone to AR failure, just that it is possible.

Quote from: Keta on July 18, 2015, 09:45:15 PM
I sent out a few water cut AR ratchets but as of now haven't heard back from the testers.  If I had a reel it would be easier.

yep, Im one of them, the problem is that it took me a bit longer than why I expected to be able to pick the ratchet and reel up from my addy in USA (I just bought one baja used and ask keta the tester ratchet), right now Im outta town but Im promes to get few pictures of the Keta ratchet for Baja Special and the factory ratchet in few days, I dont have a fishing trip scheduled on this days to test it on a good fish but I will try to make a test lifting some dumbells weights.

for start the keta Baja ratchet dont have one side rounded like the stock one

Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 19, 2015, 04:20:57 AM
John,
I was refering to the antireverse ratchet design.  It is thinner, a bit lsrger diameter, with similar shaped teeth and similar under gear spacing as what we see on the US113.  The dogs are of a difderent thickness, shape, material, and they are the silent tabbed type.  These reels also have the higher quality ARB and for all practicle purposes should not typically suffer ar system failures.  I am just saying the dogs and ratchet type alone are not one of my favorites.  The older senator style dogs, and ratchet are beefier and have a more soild engagement, despite the clickity-clack.  I like the removable ar ratchet design, but think it would benefit from being thicker, with sharper teeth.  I also prefer spring-loaded dogs (even with weaker springs) to the silent dog style.  Again, I am not saying the new Torques would be prone to AR failure, just that it is possible.

Every AR system fails without maintenance. All of the silent mechanical types are espeically finicky.

The good news is that the clunkiest method of all, dogs, springs and a coarse toothed ratchet is the most reliable.

But people buying new reels these days hate clicking dogs. The Baja Special is tolerable because the fine tooth makes a very light sound and has minimal handle back play and it is not used for the most aggressive techniques that require a lot of rod play.

If I am at the lake fishing I want quiet. If I am standing next to a guy at the rail, I really don't want to hear his reel. If I am fishing artificials all day then clicking is a deal breaker. I won't fish a clicking reel for artificial lures. Partly the noise, partly due to braid and the effect handle back play has with it (clunk).

Trolling, not the slightest worry. Bait fishing, not a big deal. Casting and retrieving braid all day? Clicking is a nightmare due to noise and handle back play.

People buying new reels are always telling you something *very* important. They are not dumb and they may not be able to tell you why they do what they do but there are very good reasons for what they do.

We can talk until we are blue in the face about the supreme reliability of sprung dogs.

When a guy in a store hears clickety-click and has handle back play it screams at him "cheap" and noisy. That is why virtually all of those reels are nearly extinct despite the "experts" singing their praises. The average guy values quiet and smooth more the few times he gets to go fishing.

I like to hear the click, my Trinidad reels all click, and I like knowing my AR system is working.  Best is an AR bearing and double spring loaded AR dogs.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:14:54 PM
I like to hear the click, my Trinidad reels all click, and I like knowing my AR system is working.  Best is an AR bearing and double spring loaded AR dogs.

I understand totally, Lee.

But guys who buy new reels don't like clicking, in the greater majority. That is why nearly every new reel made is silent.

I totally respect that after working on as many reels as many here have and seeing all the problems reels have that ultimate reliability is the most reassuring sound imaginable (clicking dogs). Guys that fish a lot LOVE ultimately reliability as is only natural.

Other men that get to fish less value quiet more as an escape from their noisy lives. :)

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 05:21:15 PM
But guys who buy new reels don't like clicking, in the greater majority. That is why nearly every new reel made is silent.

Market driven like excessively high gear ratios that are not needed for most of our fishing.

You know, I need to apologize to Rivverrat, all he wanted to know was how to deal with his issue with the Baja. Sorry bud, although I strongly believe what I've said above, it wasn't the right place.
This thread is now going in a different direction and with some senseless comments.

Rivverrat, contact Penn and see how they want to handle it. No need for much explanations to them, they've been watching us from the start and do so every day here.

Sal

We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife.  


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:41:21 PM

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 05:21:15 PM
But guys who buy new reels don't like clicking, in the greater majority. That is why nearly every new reel made is silent.

Market driven like excessively high gear ratios that are not needed for most of our fishing.

Exactly right.

I learned long ago to think of people and their buying decisions as "smart" though and the people that make what they want as "smart" and try to understand why things like a 6.2:1 gear ratio work for more guys than 4.8:1...

If you approach it that way it is an interesting exercise in what guys prefer for "fishing" versus what is desirable for "catching". Most guys spend all their time "fishing" and very little time "catching".

Look at LR fishing. All the older experienced guys start going on longer and longer trips and want reels that give them every advantage for "catching". Go on a 5 day or more and the usual trouble is too much catching! Of course slower reels are better. All it takes is a few cranks off the bottom and your jig is bit. And the fish are bigger to vastly bigger...reels for catching are preferred.

The VAST majority of rods and reels are sold in the SoCal bight for 1/2 and 3/4 day boats. If a guy goes on a rare overnight or 3-day that is a big deal.

Well, on those shorter trips they are typically characterized by lots of fishing...and relatively little catching most years. High speed reels save effort for fishing (getting a bait in to change or for yo-yo etc). He can use his high speed reel to do all kinds of fishing and he gets punished less on the smaller local models.

Lots of Catching: Mechanical dogs and tough (but noisy) gears. Lots of Fishing and not so much Catching: Quiet and smooth.

Catching is usually the more rare.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife.  


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

I agree. A better way to do it would be a cut ratchet.

But I would also like to see the dog post be fitted for an "e-clip" above and a bushing support below so they don't "float" as much on the post and are held in alignment with the ratchet better.

When I had Joel's I noticed a lot of vertical slop but I think that's due to a bad designed AR spring.  A retainer would help.  The AR springs should be left and right not the same and they need to be stronger.

Due to the diameter of the spool on most reels of today, manufacturers don't have much choice but to give their reels high gear ratio.
The older guys at Penn had it right going with a taller spool, but no one is following :-\.
I'm starting to open up a few lever drag reels lately and not crazy about what I'm seeing. Reels with small diameter spools work 3-4 time harder than their big brothers. Heat builds up fast when you're working that hard to retrieve the same amount of line, but at the very least...they're quiet ::).
Again, that's another story.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife.  


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

No :Lee, we are comparing reels and that's not what Rivverrat was asking for, I apologized because I started it with my first answer to him.

It' still helps the discussion.  A Tank (and all 113H's) has large AR dogs (dog), deep AR ratchet teeth and stronger AR dog springs (spring).  They do not have this problem.

Last night I drew up a 16T AR ratchet and as soon as I get a reel I will draw up matching AR dogs.  Then I'll have to either make springs or find ones that work in my parts pile.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 06:20:06 PM
It' still helps the discussion.  A Tank (and all 113H's) has large AR dogs (dog), deep AR ratchet teeth and stronger AR dog springs (spring).  They do not have this problem.

Yes! You are correct on that Lee.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 06:20:06 PM

Last night I drew up a 16T AR ratchet and as soon as I get a reel I will draw up matching AR dogs.  Then I'll have to either make springs or find ones that work in my parts pile.

You never rest Lee,
The ratchet you sent me looks pretty strong, I think you just need to cut new dogs and more reliable and stronger springs.

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 18, 2015, 05:06:34 PM
Sal, after some quick thoughts I believe your idea of a better ratchet gear is going to be the ultimate fix.

Meanwhile I think shimming with washers will help greatly. In the pic you can see there is plenty of room for washers & the dog is flush with top of pin.

Edited, I just looked at mine and your ratchet is on right.

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
Due to the diameter of the spool on most reels of today, manufacturers don't have much choice but to give their reels high gear ratio.
The older guys at Penn had it right going with a taller spool, but no one is following :-\.
I'm starting to open up a few lever drag reels lately and not crazy about what I'm seeing. Reels with small diameter spools work 3-4 time harder than their big brothers. Heat builds up fast when you're working that hard to retrieve the same amount of line, but at the very least...they're quiet ::).
Again, that's another story.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife. 


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

No :Lee, we are comparing reels and that's not what Rivverrat was asking for, I apologized because I started it with my first answer to him.

Sal, the reason they are going to smaller spools is because you then can use a smaller frame---weight savings and a stiffer and stronger reel and more comfortable in the hand. With braid you get more capacity than those older reels.

Yes, they also use higher gear ratios to get a serviceable "inches per turn" that guys want (ie 36" IPT).

In conjunction with far larger main gears to spool height the modern 6:1 reel has more cranking power than a tall 4:1 reel. By far.

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 07:15:34 PM

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
Due to the diameter of the spool on most reels of today, manufacturers don't have much choice but to give their reels high gear ratio.
The older guys at Penn had it right going with a taller spool, but no one is following :-\.
I'm starting to open up a few lever drag reels lately and not crazy about what I'm seeing. Reels with small diameter spools work 3-4 time harder than their big brothers. Heat builds up fast when you're working that hard to retrieve the same amount of line, but at the very least...they're quiet ::).
Again, that's another story.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife. 


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

No :Lee, we are comparing reels and that's not what Rivverrat was asking for, I apologized because I started it with my first answer to him.

Sal, the reason they are going to smaller spools is because you then can use a smaller frame---weight savings and a stiffer and stronger reel and more comfortable in the hand. With braid you get more capacity than those older reels.

Yes, they also use higher gear ratios to get a serviceable "inches per turn" that guys want (ie 36" IPT).

In conjunction with far larger main gears to spool height the modern 6:1 reel has more cranking power than a tall 4:1 reel. By far.

John, I respectfully disagree!

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2015, 07:43:17 PM

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 07:15:34 PM

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
Due to the diameter of the spool on most reels of today, manufacturers don't have much choice but to give their reels high gear ratio.
The older guys at Penn had it right going with a taller spool, but no one is following :-\.
I'm starting to open up a few lever drag reels lately and not crazy about what I'm seeing. Reels with small diameter spools work 3-4 time harder than their big brothers. Heat builds up fast when you're working that hard to retrieve the same amount of line, but at the very least...they're quiet ::).
Again, that's another story.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 05:54:40 PM
We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife. 


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

No :Lee, we are comparing reels and that's not what Rivverrat was asking for, I apologized because I started it with my first answer to him.

Sal, the reason they are going to smaller spools is because you then can use a smaller frame---weight savings and a stiffer and stronger reel and more comfortable in the hand. With braid you get more capacity than those older reels.

Yes, they also use higher gear ratios to get a serviceable "inches per turn" that guys want (ie 36" IPT).

In conjunction with far larger main gears to spool height the modern 6:1 reel has more cranking power than a tall 4:1 reel. By far.

John, I respectfully disagree!

Where to begin....I'll just say it is odd to me that you continually bash one of the last great Made in USA reels. You owe Penn an apology too.

There are people there working in that factory that you insult in this thread. You do not know how to make a better reel than they do.

You have modded one of their most basic reels to be a different reel. Nothing more.

When it comes to fishing reels, by their example, they have taught you everything you know.

I don't see it, it's all about mechanical advantage and there is no "free lunch".   I prefer a reel in the 4:1 to 5:1 range for most of my fishing but have been using small 3:1 Surfmaster 100 and a Monofil 27 lately and they work well for my use, shallow inshore rockfish and lingcod.

I want a Baja Special and will eventually have one but we are seeing problems that the old Penn reels never had.  Hopefully Penn will correct the problems soon.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 08:27:40 PM
I don't see it, it's all about mechanical advantage and there is no "free lunch".   I prefer a reel in the 4:1 to 5:1 range for most of my fishing but have been using small 3:1 Surfmaster 100 and a Monofil 27 lately and they work well for my use, shallow inshore rockfish and lingcod.

I want a Baja Special and will eventually have one but we are seeing problems that the old Penn reels never had.  Hopefully Penn will correct the problems soon.

Mechanical advantage is precisely what larger diameter gears, longer handles and smaller spools give you.

Every single company is going to bigger and bigger main gears in proportion to the spool or rotor width for this reason: Mechanical Advantage.

Mechanical advantage is simple math, levers and gears. These companies know what they are doing with real engineers designing their reels.

Braid makes all this possible.

 Power


Cranking power is a function of spool diameter, main gear diameter, gear ratio, and handle arm length.  Intuitively, greater power should be achieved with a lower gear ratio, and longer handle arm.  The relationship between spool diameter, and the diameters of the main and pinion gears and their cooresponding effect on power are not always so intuitive.

It seems that larger spools, and a larger main gear should result in more cranking power, but I am not so sure this is actually the case.  

Greater cranking power can be thought of as taking less force applied at the handle to generate more force at the spool.  

In order to consider the effects of differing spool, pinion gear, main gear diameters, and handle arm length on cranking power...consider a simple low 1:1 gear ratio.  If a reel is designed with a spool diameter to pinion diameter ratio exactly equal to the ratio of handle arm to main gear diameter, then the amount of force applied at the handle will be exactly equal to the amount of force generated at the spool.  In order to gain a mechanical advantage, in terms of applied force, one must either"
1)Decrease the ratio of spool:pinion diameters, or
2)Increase the ratio of Handle arm length:main gear diameter

Further...
1) can be acomplished by either decreasing spool diameter, or increasing pinion diameter (or both), and...
2) can be accomplished by increasing handle arm length, or decreasing main gear diameter (or both).  

Inherently reels with larger spools will have a larger spool to pinion diameter ratio, and correspondingly larger handle arm length to main gear diameters.  And smaller reels will inherently have smaller ratios.  It is the relationship between these two ratios that affects 'power' not the absolutes.  Larger reels tend to have larger ratio 1), and smaller reels tend to have larger ratio 2).  

Of course by playing with the 4 different diameters, and the gear ratio it is possible to come up with equal power ratings on both large and small reels.  

Into the mix comes the force on each component and corresponding strength requirements on each, as well as the actual inches/crank at the spool compared to the distance (which could be expressed in inches/crank) the handle travels.  

Further, the gear ratio will dictate the rpms of each of the 2 sets of components in relation to one another.

Simple machines that are not necessarily so simple.

Intuitively, I like to believe that larger reels with bigger arms, and spools are more powerful (and stronger), but simple physics dictates that this is not necessarily the case.  

Too bad manufacturers don't provide us with standardized power ratings to keep it simple for us.  

Now I am digressing from the origional topic of the post.

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 08:36:11 PM

Mechanical advantage is precisely what larger diameter gears, longer handles and smaller spools give you.

Longer handles help but the radius is an issue, higher gear ratios do not change no mater how large the gears are, 6:1 is still 6:1.  You can not create matter or energy.

BTW, I love the small modern reels.

Anyone can tell you that at the bottom of the spool (with the line nearly gone) the reel has more cranking power and more drag.

Line Height on the spool is the critical factor and is variable on all reels.

But most of the fishing is done with a nearly full spool. This is why very tall spools are going the way of the Dodo except for very specialized uses.

Lower and lower base spool height is achievable by smaller and smaller lines (braid) as you simply do not need Penn Mariners filled with braid.

This is also why there is such hue and cry for a smaller "baby baja" so that people can fish it with less than 600 yards of 60lb braid that the big one holds.

Regardless, as main gears grow and grow and spools get smaller and smaller the overall output force increases. The gear ratio has been increased to give good IPT....but still have more cranking better than 4/0 size reels with full spools.

This is why they are so popular: Guys are getting smaller and lighter reels that catch big fish.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 09:05:15 PM

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 08:36:11 PM

Mechanical advantage is precisely what larger diameter gears, longer handles and smaller spools give you.

Longer handles help but the radius is an issue, higher gear ratios do not change no mater how large the gears are, 6:1 is still 6:1.  You can not create matter or energy.

BTW, I love the small modern reels.

The physical size of the main gear in proportion to the small spool size creates mechanical advantage. The smaller spool has less leverage over the gears.

Keta, I am sure you have noticed that your reel has more cranking power with little line on it as compared to a full spool. This is changing the ratio of spool height to main gear size. Many people fish their Senators for rock fish with reels only half full for this very reason.

Conversely and in the same exact way the reel makes more drag the less line on the spool.

Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 19, 2015, 08:46:50 PM
Power


Cranking power is a function of spool diameter, main gear diameter, gear ratio, and handle arm length.  Intuitively, greater power should be achieved with a lower gear ratio, and longer handle arm.  The relationship between spool diameter, and the diameters of the main and pinion gears and their cooresponding effect on power are not always so intuitive.

To make it simple think of it as a lever, the large diameter spool moves the load further from the "fulcrum" making it harder to move the load.  A lower gear ratio and/or a longer handle arm moves the lever toward the motive force making moving the "load" easier.  There is no free lunch.

It's harder to bring up a large halibut with my loved 3.25:1 349H reels than my 4:1 113H Tank.

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 08:17:31 PM




Where to begin....I'll just say it is odd to me that you continually bash one of the last great Made in USA reels. You owe Penn an apology too.

There are people there working in that factory that you insult in this thread. You do not know how to make a better reel than they do.

You have modded one of their most basic reels to be a different reel. Nothing more.

When it comes to fishing reels, by their example, they have taught you everything you know.

No John, I do not owe Penn or anyone else any apology, I don't believe I insulted anyone, that's not who I am.
I'm simply giving my opinion and you're giving yours that's all.
Later buddy.
Sal

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 18, 2015, 12:32:36 AM
Very simple, that reel can't handle the fish you're after. Get yourself a tank, well equipped, it will  give you 30lb of smooth drag.
The 113H would get the job done.
Sal

This is not insulting?

Ok.

You take a Penn 113. Modify it precisely like Penn has over the years until it is 3/4 of the reel a Baja Special is then you tell people the Baja can't handle catfish?

Every single idea in a Tank is taken from a Baja Special. Double Dog, Eared drag washers, Aluminum frame, stainless gears.

I would think you would be more respectful of people that inspired everything you know about fishing reels.

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 19, 2015, 09:23:52 PM

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 18, 2015, 12:32:36 AM
Very simple, that reel can't handle the fish you're after. Get yourself a tank, well equipped, it will  give you 30lb of smooth drag.
The 113H would get the job done.
Sal

This is not insulting?

Ok.

No John, I don't believe so.
I have a couple of friends in Alaska that have been using the 113H tanked and it is the only reel of choice for them. Those guys pull up some nice fish and I thought it was a good advice.
The Baja is a great reel. There is a reel for every occasions, all have their place. Again, just my opinion.
Sal

Alright...

I happen to have a 130ST, a 130H, and a 14/0 apart on my bench right now, so I took some measurements, and put pen to paper.  With a little math we can compare the cranking power of the three reels....

The Penn Senator 14/0 has:

Arm length = 3.44"
Main Gear Diameter = 1.94"
Spool Diameter = 6"
Pinion Diameter = 1.28"
Gear Ratio = 1.6:1

The Penn International 130ST has:

Arm length = 3.50"
Low Speed Main Gear Diameter = 1.50"
High Speed Main Gear Diameter = 2.44"
Spool Diameter = 5.67"
Low Speed Pinion Diameter = 1.69"
High Speed Pinion Diameter = 1.19"
Low Speed Gear Ratio = 1.2:1
High Speed Gear Ratio = 2.2:1


The Penn International 130H has:

Arm length = 3.50"
Main Gear Diameter = 1.44"
Spool Diameter = 5.67"
Pinion Diameter = 1.19"
Gear Ratio = 2.1:1

I think a good way to express cranking power is:

What I call the 'power ratio' which expresses the relationship of the above 5 numbers to each other in a meaningful way:

Power Ratio =
(Spool:Pinion) X (Pinion:Main) /((Arm length) X2):Main)

*This describes the relationship between the amount of force generated at the spool when a given force is applied to the handle arm.

For the 14/0:
S:P = 4.69
P:M = 1.60
A:M = 3.55

So Power Ratio =(4.69 X 1.60 )/3.55
                           =2.11

For the 130ST (when in Low Gear):
S:P = 3.36
P:M = 1.20
A:M = 4.67

So Power Ratio =(3.36 X 1.20)/4.67
                           =0.86

This suggests that more power is generated at the spool in the 130ST in low gear then the Senator 14/0.  

Interestingly enough, the Power Ratio for the 130ST in high speed
= 3.65

And the Power Ratio for the 130H = 2.06

So the combination of a slightly smaller spool, larger pinion, longer arm, larger main leads to much greater power in the 130ST in Low Gear, and slightly more power then the 14/0.

Line retrieval rates ("/crank, from least to most) are:

1) 130ST (Low)= 30.40"/crank
2)14/0 = 45.22"/crank
3)130H = 53.19"/crank
4)130ST (High)= 55.73"/crank

Again the Power Ratios (from most to least power) are:

1)130ST (Low)= 0.86
2)130H = 2.06
3)14/0 = 2.11
4)130ST (High)= 3.65

So although line retrieval rate is a good proxy for power, as we can see with the 130H (which has the exact same 4 measurements as a 130ST in High Speed, and a slightly lower gear ratio)..gear ratio can also trip the scales.

It is interesting that 130H and 14/0 are so simalar in terms of power and line retrieval rate despite the larger spool diameter and larger main and Pinion gear size of the 14/0.  In theory you could achieve the same power ratio that we have in the most powerful of the 4 (130ST in Low),   by lengthening the handle arm on the 14/0.  In order to achieve the same power the 14/0 would need a handle arm that is 8.5" long.  This would still yield the same line retrieval rate/crank but your cranks would be much longer around (require more work).  Also, the forces applied to the gear train, etc.. would be greater with the longer arm.

I actually just made a simple spreadsheet, that allows one to plug the 5 values in for any reel and get a power ratio and retreval rate that one can use to cross compare different reel models, gear ratios, and handle arm lengths.  Incidentally, you can also plug different numbers in for effective spool diameter to see these effects on power and line retrieval rate.

Gear size has nothing to do with it, 6:1 is 6:1 and it does not matter if the main gear is 1" or 10" in diameter the mechanical advantage (disadvantage when the ratio is too high) is the same.  Spool diameter and handle length are like levers but too long of handle arm requires more travel and too large of spool OD makes the reel and you work harder.  BTW, I still prefer the 349H over the 113H, similar reels with different spool OD's.

There is a balance point or "sweet spot" that works best, for me it's 4:1.

Quote from: Keta on July 19, 2015, 11:33:54 PM
Gear size has nothing to do with it, 6:1 is 6:1 and it does not matter if the main gear is 1" or 10" in diameter the mechanical advantage (disadvantage when the ratio is too high) is the same.  Spool diameter and handle length are like levers but too long of handle arm requires more travel and too large of spool OD makes the reel and you work harder.  BTW, I still prefer the 349H over the 113H, similar reels with different spool OD's.

There is a balance point or "sweet spot" that works best, for me it's 4:1.

No Keta, the physical size (radius) of the gear is actually very important for the final power (torque) output. This is why gears in a watch cannot turn over the spool of a fishing reel. Not that they have no strength but because they have no torque.

The larger the main gear, the larger the corresponding pinion gear. The relationship between the pinion and the spool size (or the effective radius based on how much line is on the spool) is everything.

To move the spool you must move the pinion. The bigger the pinion the more torque it produces. To grow the pinion you must grow the size of the main gear.

This is precisely why the size of main gears has been growing steadily with each successive generation of new reels from every manufacturer. This is also why the "low profile" baitcaster geometry is so popular. You get max cranking power from the large main gears in relation to spool size.

Remember when  Penn invented the "Torque" star drag reels? It was because Shimano (in the trinidad) showed them they could produce higher speed reels that had the same torque as lower speed reels by growing the main gears.

That is why they call it the Torque.

I've worked with gears from small reel gears to gears as large as 10', gear ratio is gear ratio no matter what the size.  You can not create matter or energy out of the air.  A lever with the fulcrum 1" away from the load and 10" away from the motive force is the same as one 1' and 10' or 100' and 1000', the same for gears.  Spool diameter (line level) is load, lever length is motive force, gears are force multipliers.

Quote from: Keta on July 20, 2015, 12:08:07 AM
I've worked with gears from small reel gears to gears as large as 10', gear ratio is gear ratio no matter what the size.  You can not create matter or energy out of the air.  A lever with the fulcrum 1" away from the load and 10" away from the motive force is the same as one 1' and 10' or 100' and 1000', the same for gears.  Spool diameter (line level) is load, lever length is motive force, gears are force multipliers.

Gear ratio is gear ratio, of course that never changes. But, the radius of the gear is proportional to the amount of actual Torque produced.

Nothing is being created out of thin air, it is being created by the radius arm of the gear.

To make the Torque (rotational force) of the gear as great as possible, you grow the radius. Bigger gears make more Torque. Not all 6:1 gears produce the same amount of torque, it depends on their size.

This is not opinion, it is empiric fact derived from the equation for Torque = Radius x Force applied. It is precisely why longer handles produce more Torque and why smaller spools require less torque to turn.

Ok ran a few numbers on the 6/0 here are my results...

Gear Ratio/Power Ratio/Line Retrieval Rate
6/0...W/ longer stock arm (outer hole):
2.1/3.06/17.74
2.9/4.22/24.49
3.25/4.73/27.45
4.0/5.82/33.78

6/0...W/ shorter stock arm (inner hole):
2.1/4.25/17.74
2.9/5.86/24.49
3.25/6.57/27.45
4.0/8.09/33.78

It is interesting that for the 6/0, even with a 4:1 gear ratio..using the outer hole on the stock handle arm will produce better power then a 2.9:1 ratio and the shorter arm, while line retrieval rate will be close to 34" on the former, and only 24" on the later.  

Bear in mind that the spool diameter measurements I used are actually the outer diameter (more then full) so actual rates are less.  

These numbers are only demonstrating the relationship between these elements, and are not taking into account actual forces applied and on each of the components.


We can use the Torque = Radius x Force equation John mentioned, and the relationship between the 5 components to calculate (or back-calculate) torque on any given part under a given applied force.  It would also be beneficial to add one additional measurement to the mix... ratchet diameter.  This last one would be treated differently on star verses lever drag reels owing to the  location of the dog(s). 

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 19, 2015, 05:47:35 PM
You know, I need to apologize to Rivverrat, all he wanted to know was how to deal with his issue with the Baja. Sorry bud, although I strongly believe what I've said above, it wasn't the right place.
This thread is now going in a different direction and with some senseless comments.

Rivverrat, contact Penn and see how they want to handle it. No need for much explanations to them, they've been watching us from the start and do so every day here.

Sal

Oh Sal, no worries at all. I thought at first you all was just funning around. Regardless it's no big deal at all. It's all good! We all have things we like & jump at opportunities to talk about them. 

I really like where some of this is going. Yup I'll get a hold of Penn tomorrow. I also talk with Steve Carson a bit. I think some good points have been made about simple solutions to making the area of this reel stronger.   
   

OK a couple of things.

When a customer says "I believe I have made an improvement to your product"  the best engineers get interested.  It is only the insecure ones that first smirk, and then feel insulted -I've seen both types in action.   This level of customer involvement  is a benefit to the manufacturer.  And I personally see nothing wrong with being proud of our aftermarket changes.

Regarding large gears, force multipliers and torque:  My view is that you are all making different points.  Changing the size of the gears without changing the ratio does not change the force multiplier.  Larger gears will have more leverage on the respective shafts (good and/or bad).   Larger gears allow for larger teeth which is a huge benefit.  As John has pointed out you wouldn't put watch sized gears on a truck, irregardless of the ratios. 

Regarding star vs lever drag advantages.  I believe that the lever drag has many inherent advantages-  it is not fighting the force multiplier of the gear ratio so you can get the same amount of drag with less force on the stack.  You don't have to have an encapsulated stacked drag system- so better heat dissipation and drag diameters greater than the gear size  are now possible.  The anti-reverse can be ahead of the gears, so the gears are not subject to bi-directional gear strain.  The drag is engaged gradually rather than the fully off to fully on slam you get from engaging a star drag.    However it also looks to me like  many lever drag reel designs do not fully utilize these advantages. 

Regarding tall spools-  tall spools  (when full) create more leverage against frame and pinion.   It is more more challenging to build a stiff reel with the same capacity if it is too tall or  too wide.  There is a sweet spot.   However a tall reel is a great way to increase the retrieve speed and re-use a lot of proven parts and designs.

Getting back on track - a newer ratchet looks to me (too) like the right first step.  Raising the dogs may introduce new problems if they are not supported  so they will lay flat, or if there is too much taper in the pins- plus you may not want to get them too close to the top of the pin.    Lifting the dogs a little with a wide delrin or metal washer might help. Or simply making the dogs a bit thicker.  I would worry about making the ratchet too thick.  If/when the shaft tilts, you don't want the ratchet  to scrape the bridge.  It would be nice to  to redesign the spring so that it does not run under the dog- reducing some of the dog tilt.

My $0.02

-Jurelometer

Quote from: jurelometer on July 20, 2015, 03:24:40 AM
 




Getting back on track - a newer ratchet looks to me (too) like the right first step.  Raising the dogs may introduce new problems if they are not supported  so they will lay flat, or if there is too much taper in the pins- plus you may not want to get them too close to the top of the pin.    Lifting the dogs a little with a wide delrin or metal washer might help. Or simply making the dogs a bit thicker.  I would worry about making the ratchet too thick.  If/when the shaft tilts, you don't want the ratchet  to scrape the bridge.  It would be nice to  to redesign the spring so that it does not run under the dog- reducing some of the dog tilt.

My $0.02

-Jurelometer

Hey great post! I especially like the common sense approach to the part of your post I quoted. You like John & some others here always seem to have good points.

Hey guys I was not offended by anything Sal had to say so slow soft & easy. It's just fishing reels. Something we all have some thoughts on. I just dont want to see a great thread go to the crapper. There are some very good thoughts & points being made here....Jeff

Quote from: foakes on July 18, 2015, 06:14:51 AM
First, this is a very good reel -- 

Every time I work on one of these Bajas or US Senators -- I marvel at how well they perform -- and am always promising myself to re-engineer the bridge, A/R dogs, springs, and ratchet.  Then it would be a perfect reel, IMO.  They just need better springs, SS dogs, solid spacers under the dogs to hold them in position. 

Just really finicky reels that would be perfect with a better dog/spring, and solid dog placement system.


(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx130/foakes1/D13323BC-9BF5-4FD2-9697-AD2EA44C892C_zpslwdjggsx.jpg) (http://s748.photobucket.com/user/foakes1/media/D13323BC-9BF5-4FD2-9697-AD2EA44C892C_zpslwdjggsx.jpg.html)

Fred just reread your post. Do you think the present pins the dogs ride on will work? They taper down quite a bit going into the bridge. As I stated the pin with the bad dog was tilted a bit out of it's whole. 

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 18, 2015, 02:56:22 AM

I had my drag set around 20 lbs. when I had that fish. Did not have a gob of line stripped from the reel.  Tightened the drag down pulled & I about went over backwards when the reel gave.

Like your saying maybe just a fluke. But after this it will be a bit before I truly trust this reel when I'm leaning on it. Much rather it be something wrong that I can fix.  

I will put my 2 cents here and I mean no disrespect to anyone.

Ok first the 113's either the Metals or Baja's were not designed to fish over 60 lb test as the weakest line on a reel.

Don' bring a knife to a gun fight.

In the above statement 20 lbs of drag sounds right but when you say you set the reel at "around" 20 lbs of drag, well what was it set at? Then, "tightened" down the drag, what was it tightened down too, do you know?

Believe it or not fishing reels were never designed to remove logs, stumps or rocks from a river, they were designed to catch fish. Do you think having 25-30 lbs of drag or more would of removed your hook any better with what it was stuck onto?

With the amount of drag set at fighting a fish and then making it stronger and pulling harder do you really think that was the best way to dislodge the hook from what ever you were snagged onto? I understand that this may be the only way to remove stuck gear but if you would of loosened the drag wrapped the line around the frame/spool area a couple of times then pulled on the line above the reel while cranking the handle until everything came tight you would relieve the dogs from handling all the pressure. The line rapped around the frame would take around 1/3 to 1/2 of the pressure applied strait to the dog. Even putting some thumb pressure on the spool and pulling would of helped save from this failure. I'm not saying you did not I'm just stating that it will relieve some of the stress on the dog.

Can improvements be made to just about every reel on the market? Sure, but if you need more than 20 lbs of drag for whatever reason your going to need bigger reels designed to handle the drag pressure for bigger fish or in your case for pulling on stumps, logs or what ever IMO.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

IMO reels were never designed to lift dead weight or pull on static or unmovable objects and THIS SHOULD NEVER BE A MEASUREMENT ON HOW WELL A REEL PREFORMS. This can be a good test on how a rod preforms under the load you choose to fish your reel at but never a good way to tell how a reel will react while on a fish.

JM is right --

Any tilt in a dog will cause multiple issues -- dogs must be flat with no chance for slop.

These dogs will tilt slightly under the pressure of an extreme fish -- not the 97% of the fish we generally fish for.

And there are other possible areas of looseness -- unattached ratchet, light springs without proper fold over keeper ends -- prone to slipping out of place, dogs cast instead of machined -- slightly rounded, ratchet cast instead of machined with crisp edges -- also slightly rounded teeth, and unlike the rest of the reel components -- the metal for these components is not up to the standards for which this reel was designed for -- or quite frankly the high quality of the rest of the reel.

Penn is a fantastic company, IMO -- but like trying to do a sea change with an aircraft carrier group -- or even get to the point where the decision is made to turn the group around -- takes more reasons that just a few guys on a site doing some Monday morning re-engineering.

This reel is a fantastic reel for 90% of the fisherman out there.

IMO, and I am not an expert or an engineer (but there are folks who are very clever and ingenious on this site) -- however this is all this reel needs to be able to handle nearly any challenge -- then it would truly be a perfect product -- and very fairly priced -- it would be a solid value for any fisherman -- and would last a lifetime.

-- SS sleeve with ratchet wheel built into the assembly -- raised center under portion so sharp teeth ride just over the bridge plate slightly

-- SS dogs, thicker, better SS, crisp angle for interaction with ratchet wheel -- not rounded -- dogs flat on the bridge plate

-- Thicker pins with "C" clips above dogs

-- Stronger dog springs with different system so springs do not come loose either during use or installation

If I was Penn, I would design a system similar to what is described here as a drop in unit to current reels already in use.  Either offer it at no charge to owners along with free installation -- or make it a $35 turn-key upgrade.

Can you imagine the positive publicity that would be generated among shops, dealers, retailers, consumers, wholesalers, online forums and sites, and the entire angling industry?

Plus, they would be doing what people do not expect a large corporation to do nowadays -- the right thing...

It takes decades to build up a good, trusted reputation -- and in this world of instant communication -- just a few minutes to lose it forever.  We all owe so much to Penn -- and should give them a chance to remedy this issue properly.

Penn has been very receptive to the folks in the field in recent years -- they do get it -- and they do listen and consider.

Just my opinions as a simple reel mechanic --

Best,

Fred

SoCal,
             You are correct in your assessment regarding the proper use of a reel. Normally I wrap the line around the reel a few times if nothing else is handy to pull or break free of snags.

However footing on the bank was not good & no harder than I pulled just prior to the dog giving way causes me to think the damage was at least in some part already there. Fish no way pulled hard enough to do it. Scales I use to set my drag are accurate within 2 lbs. I was fishing 22 lbs. of drag max. No more. Prior to tightening the drag.

I was using 60 lb. Big Game. I did not do a prior full inspection of the reel. I wish I had. The pin the bad dog was on was pulled out on a bit of an angle. Making me wonder if it was not set right to begin with.
But once the dog went it probably  wouldn't take much for it to leverage the pin out a bit.

I believe Charkbait spools some of the US113W  to be fished with 80 & claim no issue with fishing the reel buttoned down. I thought Penn had told me the same. Though I'm not totally certain about that. But after this & seeing the anti reverse I Dont think I would do it.

After some looking into it this is an issue that may not be common place but has happened enough to be mentioned by others who've fished the original Baja's.

Well put Fred!  

I echo your thoughts.  But I believe this is a fine product, and will operate as just fine as advertised provided it is fished within manufacture-recomended/design specifications.  Bear in mind that forces can spike for a brief moment much larger then you might expect, especially with little line off of the reel, and drag tightened down.  Spectra, and short/stiff rids will exacerbate the effect.  Don't recall any mention of spectra being used here though?  Of course this reel is more then capable of catching large fish.  I have landed 120lb tuna on 16lb test with 5.5lbs of drag, and 1000lb marlin are routinely caught on 80lb test with 25-27lbs of drag.  Of course these catches are in open water.

As reel mechanics we are used to seeing where reels fail and what may happen when neglected or fished beyond specs.  Often times we forget to notice how  ingenius some of the newer designs are, or when something is actually performing its job admitably.  I feel like there were mixed feelings when these new US-made Baja-style senators came out, and knew there was bound to be some fireworks when the first failure came to light.  

John made some valid points about market-driven influence in some of the modern reel designs and some of the positive things that have resulted.  Can improvements be made?  Yes  Will this reel likely perform very well when used what is was designed for and within specs?  Very likely.  

I agree with you fully, John --

And I have stated more than once that this is not a good reel -- it is a fantastic reel.

This is Penns answer to all of our upgrades -- and some of the things Newell did routinely 25-30 years ago...

I am grateful that a large company like Penn is that responsive -- at any level.

We received basically what we have been advocating for years now...

This is also an important reel that we should all get to know a little better.

But for me, knowing what I have learned from experience, like most of us here -- I would not be afraid to fish a Baja or US Senator on a fishing trip.  But I would have a back up arsenal with me ready to go -- which I always have anyway.

For a lot of us, knowing as much as we do about reel mechanics -- some of us would feel uncomfortable trusting this reel -- until the dog system was brought up to proper speed with the rest of the high quality components and engineering of this reel.

So I will see what Penn has in mind -- if anything.  The ball is in their court.

And if nothing comes of my Pollyanna approach -- there are guys on here like Tom, Adam, Alan, Sal, and others -- who would make a perfect After-Market drop in assembly.  There is a market for this -- and if promoted properly -- there are thousands of reel candidates out there ready for an upgrade.

We routinely upgrade any quality product, if possible -- tools, firearms, tackle products, cars, computers, etc.

This is no exception -- and it would be as close to perfect for a manufacturers reel in this price range -- that we have ever seen.

Solid aluminum frame, double dogs, versa drag, SS, double eccentric springs, good handles, spools, gears, and much more --

Just need the last "Missing Link".

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred

Nail on the head Fred, nail on the head. People are spending hours and hours modding older Penns to be close to this reel (and haven't got there yet). It is an inspiration.

There was a thread on BD more than a year ago where one guy had similar trouble and it was right after I got my first US Senator. I queried the Service guys at Penn about it (Tony and Tom are great) worrying about the "floating" nature of the dogs.

When you take one apart you immediately grasp what this means. The stud the dogs sit on is long and the dogs ride a little off of flush with the bridge held by the springs so there is some "play" in the vertical axis the dogs can experience, possibly exacerbated by the sort of rapid tugging and jerking of the rod when trying to free from a snag, that may be leading to a lack of alignment with enough dog with enough ratchet and the tip deforms.

For every design feature there is some level of failure and Penn's position at the time was that they simply do not see any consistent trouble with the design or from the same guys once they get replacement dogs. This sort of resolution is also anecdotal in the sense that you never know if the guy fished it the same and had no trouble, changed practice ie stopped trying to land "California" when hooked ;D or sold the reel in disgust...:(.

As well, as a manufactured reel they have to weigh build simplicity (= cost, and the dog design is laudably simple) versus rate of failure. This may not play well to some but is an economic reality.

Lastly, to dispel any notion that I am biased in this area I will admit I am! I am biased towards Made in USA and rather than throwing stones at one of the last Made in USA reels I am rather surprised that some have not taken a more supportive attitude towards this issue. If it needs solving Penn will solve it.

Some of the same decry the lack of simple mechanically dogged reels and the decline of US Manufacturing in other threads....very disappointing.

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 20, 2015, 06:52:43 AM
SoCal,
             You are correct in your assessment regarding the proper use of a reel. Normally I wrap the line around the reel a few times if nothing else is handy to pull or break free of snags.

However footing on the bank was not good & no harder than I pulled just prior to the dog giving way causes me to think the damage was at least in some part already there. Fish no way pulled hard enough to do it. Scales I use to set my drag are accurate within 2 lbs. I was fishing 22 lbs. of drag max. No more. Prior to tightening the drag.

I was using 60 lb. Big Game. I did not do a prior full inspection of the reel. I wish I had. The pin the bad dog was on was pulled out on a bit of an angle. Making me wonder if it was not set right to begin with.
But once the dog went it probably  wouldn't take much for it to leverage the pin out a bit.

I believe Charkbait spools some of the US113W  to be fished with 80 & claim no issue with fishing the reel buttoned down. I thought Penn had told me the same. Though I'm not totally certain about that. But after this & seeing the anti reverse I Dont think I would do it.

After some looking into it this is an issue that may not be common place but has happened enough to be mentioned by others who've fished the original Baja's.

If the stud the dog rides on was bent then the reel needs to go to Penn to look at. No way that should ever bend unless the reel was exposed to force never intended, or, the stud was not properly hardened.

The stud/pin was was standing at a slant not completly seated.  I dont believe the stud has enough of a purchase on the bridge to ever bend. I pushed the stud back flush with my thumb.  The walk to where I was fishing is to brutal for most. So I dont bring my better rods. I was using a beater Ugly Stick. Again I dont believe I had a chance to pull all that hard & certainly did not bounce the rod.

I'm hearing from a couple hear about fishing this real with in specs. So now I'm learning after the purchase of a another reel that it can have possible issue even when fished at specks well below whats published. Evreything I've read says the drag specs are 27 lbs.  I was not trying to free this snag at that setting.  The drag was not stupid tight as some of you are suggesting. So just what are the honest specs on this reel? Listen if I am responsible I have no issue at all admitting it. I've pulled far harder on my Abu 7000 than I did with this reel when it gave way.  

I was honestly pretty impressed with how few turns of the star it took to get 20 lbs. of drag with this reel.  

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 20, 2015, 07:00:28 PM
The stud/pin was was standing at a slant not completly seated.  I dont believe the stud has enough a purchase on the bridge to ever bend. I pushed the stud back flush with my thumb.       

It shouldn't be loose at all as far as I know. It should be pressed in. That it was able to move at all could be the source of the trouble.

John, I could probably pull it out with tweezers. I'm going to give Penn a holler. 

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 20, 2015, 07:53:19 PM
John, I could probably pull it out with tweezers. I'm going to give Penn a holler. 

Please do, they will probably want to look at it. I sent the service guys an email this am and they forwarded the link to this thread to the engineering dept.



best

Quote from: johndtuttle on July 20, 2015, 08:04:43 PM

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 20, 2015, 07:53:19 PM
John, I could probably pull it out with tweezers. I'm going to give Penn a holler.  

Please do, they will probably want to look at it. I sent the service guys an email this am and they forwarded the link to this thread to the engineering dept.



best

Cool that was good of you John. Wouldn't it be a really neat thing if Penn did 1/2 of what Fred suggested. However I understand as well as any one it's a business & ultimately money does matter.  

I have a local guy that use his Baja Special for big Baquetas and black seabass (golliat bass)

for yellowtail he has no problem using the Baja, and for Baquetas that could be really fat and heavy he sweat a bit and the baja could handle the fishing but was a golliat bass (I know not the best reel, but in some places in Baja you never know what could bite your offering), well this golliat bass gave a really bad time to the reel, it actually toasted the dogs, of couse after many hours in the water and many big fishes, he use the Baja on a charter boat and it gets punished a lot more than a weekend warrior would do ever.

the Baja special lost one of those pins, both dogs and the right place also lost a plastic pin to center the bridge
check this thread.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14398.msg147513#msg147513


as a side note, the owner was happy to show me the damage on the reel because he said the reel handled a lot of fishes before without any failure, he gladly spend $100 bucks to get all those parts new and have the reel working again.
he owns and uses a Torsa 30, few trinidad A series, few gold trinidad but his favorite reel is the Baja Special.

he told I know the Torsa is considered a better reel than the Baja and I really love the torsa and pretty sure it will handle bigger fishes but I cannot stop of using the Baja for the simplicity, stronger, and casteability, it just a winner in my books.

well, that was the cherry on the cake that I needed to convince myself to get me a Baja Special too.

Cool that was good of you John. Wouldn't it be a really neat thing if Penn did 1/2 of what Fred suggested. However I understand as well as any one it's a business & ultimately money does matter.  


I have confidence Penn will do the right thing, by doing something we would not expect from less successful companies.

The integrity and responsibility of the engineers and brand is at stake here -- make no mistake, it will be addressed in some fashion...

Even though they have been bought and sold -- the heritage of Penn is still intact -- and a simple re-engineering upgrade for a few thousand potential owners of their products -- would do more good than $1M of advertising.

And this reel is going to be around for a long time -- it is not a Shimano or Daiwa that will discontinue parts support after a couple of years.  

This could be the bread and butter for Penn -- and as such, they would not want the model tainted by doubt in any way...

Looking forward to a good outcome.

Best,

Fred

Just spoke with Steve Carson. The issue as he understands it from my very brief explanation is that some of these reels were released with a slightly concave dog gear or ratchet which mine does have. I will be getting in touch with Tony tomorrow & suspect he will send out the needed parts....Jeff

It is my hope that Lee & Fred with his very competent wisdom & structured advice, along with others here continue with the work started regarding this issue. An issue that based on my looking into does not seem to be a regular issue for a lot of people. Except for those of us that fish regularly. 

I also have to say I greatly appreciate SoCal & others bringing up the possibility of error on my part. I completely understand this must be considered with things of this nature. Fellas I am here to learn & contribute what I may. Bringing with me nothing more than my love for The Rivers I fish & the critters that reside there....Jeff  

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 20, 2015, 08:58:02 PM
Just spoke with Steve Carson. The issue as he understands it from my very brief explanation is that some of these reels were released with a slightly concave dog gear or ratchet which mine does have. I will be getting in touch with Tony tomorrow & suspect he will send out the needed parts....Jeff

It is my hope that Lee & Fred with his very competent wisdom & structured advice, along with others here continue with the work started regarding this issue. An issue that based on my looking into does not seem to be a regular issue for a lot of people. Except for those of us that fish regularly. 

I also have to say I greatly appreciate SoCal & others bringing up the possibility of error on my part. I completely understand this must be considered with things of this nature. Fellas I am here to learn & contribute what I may. Bringing with me nothing more than my love for The Rivers I fish & the critters that reside there....Jeff 

Pretty sure you won't have any more trouble, Jeff.

Take a look at this post: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14398.msg147513#msg147513

This reel was busted by a commercial fisherman in Baja California afters years of service with the drag completely locked down battling Giant Sea Bass that go over 300lbs. The equivalent of a lifetime or more of fishing for any recreational fisherman.

The Dog and Ratchet system of the stock Baja Special and the stock drag was eventually enough to snap the post it rides on...this is not a small amount of force over many years.

The lesson here is multifold:

1. Drag modifications in other reels are nice for increasing top end smoothness but need to be used cautiously or any reel will break in time.

2. Cranking down the drag to max on such reels to remove snags are a bad idea as the drags create a lot of force magnified by the common jerking and tugging to try and free the hook. No reel is designed to handle that stress as the frame flexing during the jerking is bad ju-ju.

3. If the stock dog and ratchet of the Baja Special are strong enough to snap posts after years of service then there probably is nothing wrong with the design, other than (as Lee has suggested) a worn die was used to stamp out the ratchet gears in some late model Bajas leading to the poor shape of the teeth on the ratchet we see in Jeff's reel. This has been addressed by Penn.

So what is the point of this post?

There are limitations to the practical engineering of any reel that have to be in line with expected and common use. Every single one of them cannot be made to some ideal of perfection that will handle unlimited fishing at max drag. People that work on even Penn International 130W reels can attest to this.

Jeff's reel is a case of a poorly produced ratchet that has been addressed. The reel in the above link was a case of years of brutal commercial service. The commercial fisherman was so happy that the Baja had held up better than anything he had ever used he was happy to pay for the parts to rebuild his reel to keep fishing it....All in all you probably cannot beat a US Senator for the money for strength and reliability for a Manufactured Reel by a major company that has parts and warranty and a track record with the reel over 15 years.

This is not to say our Mad Modder community ;) will not create some bullet proof monsters and do us proud.

Lee has my reel at the moment and is experimenting with a coarser toothed ratchet and some cut SS dogs. We'll see if we can improve a little bit on what is currently stock or not.  ;)

I started a new thread on the mods I'm working on, any input will be considered and appreciated.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen)

I really like these reels, especially the US113N.

Well I just got this reel off to Penn. They were really wanting to see it. Let you all know what takes place. I am more than just a little confident that Penn will take care of this situation. Simply because that is their track record.

Well I sent my Baja back to Penn on the 29th & today I get an UPS email that a package that weighs 3.00 lbs. is coming my way from Penn.  They offered the possibility of replacing the reel with the newer US113 which I agreed would be fine.  So in light of the very quick response I'm assuming that is what Penn has done. Will post what ever the outcome...Jeff

I would have kept the Baja instead, but I respect your choice.
There is something about the real old school stance and colors of the reel That IMHO look better That the "New reel look" of the US113 senator

Steelfish, your reasoning is why when Beta at Charkbait said they had 2 Baja's  I went with that verses the newer model. Something about the personality of having the older model. On the other hand I personally like the looks of the US113 better.

The only reels I am starting to like any where close to this Penn model for the fishing I do is the Okuma Andros 12 & the Mak 8 & 10. The Andros 12 with it's weight, line capacity & drag  may become my favorite reel. It needs a bit more time & fish caught before I can confidently bestow that title on it.   I have honestly abused mine & it has yet to balk or talk back....Jeff

Package from Penn arrived today.
The cross bars on the frame of this new US113 model appear thicker than what was on my Baja. On a personal level, I like the looks of the US113 much better than the Baja.

I'll be taking a look at it's innards tonight. Giving the ratchet gear a close look. I think Penn did well regarding this issue .  Very  quickly taking care of my situation. I'm very happy with Penn's handling of this.
 
  I am very intrigued & quite taken with this reel ....Jeff  

Good for you Jeff. Go Penn! ;D

I believe Penn did a great job handling your situation.
Sal

beautiful reel.

great job on penn guys handling this situation.

This reel puts out a bit more drag than the prior Baja. The Baja didn't take as many turns of the star to achieve the setting I used it at. More than likely nothing more than common manufacturing variance on a reel to reel bases. Don't for see any issues with this reel based on the service others have had & believing my issue was mostly a fluke. It's late & I have a bike I need to get running before tomorrow. So I wont get to to take a look at the inside of this reel tonight. Again I don't believe Penn could have done any better taking care of this!....Jeff

Great, Jeff --

Once again, Penn demonstrates a lot of class -- and no drama.

Good company -- doing it right.

If it were mine, I would partially break it down -- inspect the interior -- post some pics of the ratchet/dogs/ springs assembly for everyone -- then do a pre-fish service, just so you are confident everything is greased, oiled, not over-tightened or loose anywhere.  Making sure the drags have the proper grease you prefer, etc..

Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

Best,

Fred

Fred, I most diffidently will be taking a look at the interior of this reel & posting pics of the of the ratchet & dogs. All prior to using it. I will say this reel came with all frame screws & foot well greased. Hope to get inside it tonight.This is truly a great reel!...Jeff

weird that penn used a straigh handle on the US senator 113hn and not the curved handle as the one used on the Baja Special

This reel was lubed a bit better than some Penn Reels Ive looked at in the past. All side plate screws had at least a lite covering of grease.  For those that may not know. You can click on pics wait a second or two & they will increase in size for a better view. There will be a slide bar at bottom of pic after it's enlarged that enables you to line up pics.

Everything inside & outside that needed it was greased or had a film of grease covering it.

The all important ratchet gear in this real looks much better than the one in the prior Baja.

Like I said everything was pretty well greased so I didn't take the reel down all the way.

All accept for the sleeve & handle bearing. I pulled the shields, cleaned the bearing & repacked the bearing with Cal's put the shields back in place & reinstalled the bearing.

I do not believe I will have the ratchet/dog issue with this reel. The gear being much better made & the dogs appear to be getting a much better purchase of the teeth on the gear.

on your pictures I see the ratchet teeth still pointing upwards with the same side rounded and the same light wire floating springs.

according to Steve Carlson the only difference vs the Baja Special is the color of the frame, spool and the name of the reel.


the dog/ratchet problem is not a common or regular problem, it´s just the "the only problem" found in few reels of haundreds out there, so chances are that you might not have that problem at all.

The ratchet and dogs look the same to me.
This is a lot of reel, I personally believe the design with the dogs and ratchet could use an upgrade.
BUT, as you guys are saying, if this doesn't happen that often, you could rest assured that Penn will not do anything about it...I don't blame them.
Sal

This ratchet does not have have the pronounced rolled bottom edge of the teeth that the ratchet did in Baja.

Plus the dogs are making contact with the bottom of the main gear.

Sal, I agree there could be improvement in this area on this reel. However when I compare the pics of the ratchet on the Baja with the ratchet & dogs on this reel there is more contact area on this reel. 

Thanks for taking a close look for us, your work is appreciated.
Sal

Quote from: steelfish on August 06, 2015, 04:02:38 AM
on your pictures I see the ratchet teeth still pointing upwards with the same side rounded and the same light wire floating springs.

Yes there is the radius on the ratchet gear teeth that comes from being a stamped part. It  is not as pronounced as it was on my Baja. A few thousands makes a huge difference in the amount of contact in this area. Overall the dogs on this USS113 have a much better purchase on the ratchet. Also as I mentioned prior they contact the bottom of the main gear keeping them level & contained on their studs.

Quote from: Rivverrat on August 06, 2015, 06:56:08 AM

Quote from: steelfish on August 06, 2015, 04:02:38 AM
on your pictures I see the ratchet teeth still pointing upwards with the same side rounded and the same light wire floating springs.

Yes there is the radius on the ratchet gear teeth that comes from being a stamped part. It  is not as pronounced as it was on my Baja. A few thousands makes a huge difference in the amount of contact in this area. Overall the dogs on this USS113 have a much better purchase on the ratchet. Also as I mentioned prior they contact the bottom of the main gear keeping them level & contained on their studs.

thats good to know, maybe we just need to get the new ratchets and dogs from the US senator reel.

i think a lot of part of the issue are the light wire springs, I have 5 baja dog springs and 3 of them are kind of different, 2 were already used and 3 brand new, depending on they sit on the dog the deform a bit and I am pretty sure they act also a bit different too.
one was more compressed, another bit deform of the tips, etc.

Yup going forward with upgrades on this reel, the springs being made of such lite wire while playing such an important role in keeping the dogs in position on their studs is in my opinion one that needs to be addressed. I'm quite content with the amount of contact between these two parts on this reel.

For a company as good as Penn -- with the rich heritage and resources -- and the desire to build the best reel possible -- the next step is to just do a simple engineering adjustment.

Better cut SS machined ratchet with an indented center portion so the ratchet wheel will be nearly on the bridge surface -- SS dogs, stronger springs -- "C" clip to hold the dogs in place -- and more firmly attached dog posts. 

The gear and weak springs should not be relied upon to hold the floating dogs in place.

I know a failure may only happen 3 out of 100 times -- or more often on a very large fish -- but to me that is unacceptable. 

Lets be frank -- in my opinion only, this is close to the most perfect reel Penn has ever produced -- why not just make it perfect?

Penn would not have to do this for free -- they could come up with an improvement on all of these reels manufactured in the future -- then offer an upgrade kit for say $25-$30-- for all of thr previous Bajas and US Senators.

Best,

Fred

we all know Penn guys check this site regulary but lets have high hopes that they are already working on some upgrade just like shimano did on the the gold trinidad reels , the offered the "upgrade kit" or at least thinking in doing it in a near future.

110% agree with Fred

Quote from: foakes on August 06, 2015, 05:39:05 PM
portion so the ratchet wheel will be nearly on the bridge surface -- SS dogs, stronger springs -- "C" clip to hold the dogs in place -- and more firmly attached dog posts. 

The gear and weak springs should not be relied upon to hold the floating dogs in place.





Fred

Fred, that is exactly what I was referring to. I think it would be great if Penn did as you stated.

Quote from: Keta on July 23, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
I started a new thread on the mods I'm working on, any input will be considered and appreciated.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen)

I really like these reels, especially the US113N.

Maybe Penn can subcontract Lee's, John's, Fred's, or Sal's services out to develop and test a working prototype ratchet, dogs, clips etc? ;)

Quote from: Tightlines666 on August 06, 2015, 08:29:20 PM

Quote from: Keta on July 23, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
I started a new thread on the mods I'm working on, any input will be considered and appreciated.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen)

I really like these reels, especially the US113N.

Maybe Penn can subcontract Lee's, John's, Fred's, or Sal's services out to develop and test a working prototype ratchet, dogs, clips etc? ;)

I haven't checked with Lee but he is in mid-process on this. He will come up with some simple change/upgrade for those interested. He has my reel.

I am more interested in fishing the stock model to see if I ever have a problem. After 15 years of use in the field I am pretty sure Penn has a handle on this, though it appears an older worn die was used to stamp out the ratchets in the last Bajas produced.

We here tend to have an obsession about utterly fool proof dogs that old up for decades. Fact of the matter is that the Baja never sold well. Not because it wasn't the same reel with the amazing track record (with the same internals) we see today and admire so much....but because people prefer Trinidad/Torium/Saltist/Saltigas for what a Baja can do.

Fortunately Penn now has the Torque and Fathom and they are selling like gangbusters.

I could write a long post about why reels sell...but the number one reason is that the fisherman sees himself in the product. He identifies with it. Unconsciously he sees himself reflected in it.

As we have gotten older that sort of ultimate reliability inside, with a rough around the edges on the outside :) is how we see ourselves. We can identify with Bajas, Senators and Tanks...and buy them or upgrade our Senators etc. Its like going down to the Doc to get a tune up and oil change at 50 years.

The vast majority of guys with $300++ to drop on a reel sees himself as Mr. Sexy Smooth Guy. He buys a Shimano  ;D.

People (in most cases) do not buy a reel based on what it can do. Sorry! These are just toys for grown boys! If it was a practicality thing we would all use nets or hand lines!  :D

Then we could argue about who makes the best winch for hauling a net. :)

I forgot I was Mr. Sexy Smooth guy!  

That is until last week when I was working and Mrs. Short Fat Persian Lady asked me 'why you don't take your shirt off when you work'?

I gave her Sal's number.   ;D

Darn, it just occurred to me.....Dom likes to go without his shirt too.

(Thread killer).

John, again you are correct. The same reason people buy a certain car or truck is the same for reels. Never mind most don't need the truck they purchase or the 500+ h.p. car, it is nothing more than an object that in the mind of the one purchasing it helps project the image they want.

However I don't wish to place my lips on a turd flute....Jeff

great Analogy John

now that Im on the reel repair world I found out that the difference is if the reel is a toy or a tool for fishing.
if you see your reel as a toy you want the newest and the most shinny reel
if is a tool you want the most capable, and less prone to fail reel.

I bought the first US113N that Scott's got in to their store. I tore it down side by side with a new Baja Special from Charkbait.

Everything internally was identical between the two reels.

After going thru the spool bearings I get almost 2 minutes of freespool using TSI301 oil.

I have many, many reels to use when we go fishing. Avet's and Trinidad's for the heavy Grouper and Amberjack fishing but the Baja Special's get used the most for general bottom fishing for Red Snapper and such.

Every one loves them and the gear ratio and almost non existent handle back play is the reason.

Quote from: handi2 on August 07, 2015, 01:09:44 AM
I bought the first US113N that Scott's got in to their store. I tore it down side by side with a new Baja Special from Charkbait.

Everything internally was identical between the two reels.

This was not the same as what I seen with comparing the two I had. However in your post you more than likely weren't speaking of common manufacture variances.
The ratchet did not provided the same contact area for the dogs. Now my thinking the the cross bars of the frame on the US113 were thicker could have been do to color. With black sometimes making things appear smaller.

I wanted to add that I have verified with multiple people from Penn that this reel is fine fished above 20 lbs. of drag. I've received the OK to fish 80 lb. line with it buttoned down. With this being true & fully knowing the proper way to free a snag & that I was using 60 lb. Big Game. Which is known for breaking at or slightly below it's rating I am having trouble seeing that any thing I did caused the issue in the prior reel.

However I did ask Tony with Penn to let me know what ever their findings reveal my fault or not....Jeff

This issue was also discussed some time back on Bloody Decks.


http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/threads/baja-special-us-113n-vs-fathom.584156/#post-3748493

I forgot to get a pic of it. But the studs the dogs ride on are peened into the bridge. I don't remember seeing this on my prior Baja.

Wow! Over 1:30 sec. of free spool  just by cleaning the grease from the right side spool bearing & lubing with TSI 321. Ive done nothing to the left side spool bearing, it is still closed.

This is a fantastic reel! I ski-bobbed a 12 lb. Blue Cat across the waters surface yesterday with it....Jeff

Yep, free spool time is fantástic on these reels.
My baja spins for 1:05 to 1:15
My fathom 40 spins always above 1:25 Mark.

Both like you did, cleaned the OEM Grease on the spool bearings and dip them on Tsi 321