The first thing I noticed was a rounding of one side of the AR ratchet due to them being stamped, the second is the one I currently have is set up for alternate engagement, the third thing is the AR springs appear to be weak and are "slow" when greased.
I think the problems are mostly the weak spring not allowing the AR dog to move fast enough to fully engage the AR ratchet teeth and when under a load the rounded tips of the AR ratchet hit the tip of the AR dog when moving backwards, deforming the AR dog tip then slamming the second AR dog.
Stronger AR dog springs and a flat AR ratchet could be the fix.
My first run of AR ratchets were cut out of too thin of material, the next batch will be thicker. I will have AR dogs with a heavier tip and AR ratchets in stock and 16T cut.
Glad your going forward with the upgrades, this will let us know if the problem with this reel goes away.
Looking forward your custom parts Lee.
Lee, join us on the Baja Special bandwagon and get a US-senator 113hn
Lee, thanks for your work to improve these reels. Although I've been fortunate with no problems I would like to get this upgrade from you when available.
Regards, .. Lou
I use 4 of them and haven't had a problem yet. I will get the upgrades just to make sure..!!
Inspect the tips of the teeth on the ratchets to see if they are rounded off. Most of the time this shouldn't be a problem but under heavy load they might not work. The dog isn't supported on the tip due to the spring under them and that might allow the dog to deflect enough to cause problem when combined with the rounded ratchet teeth.
I'm not sure but I think I heard Penn has a improved AR ratchet.
Again, overall these reels really impress me.
A text I received from Steve Carson stated that some of these reels "may have a slightly concave dog gear" . So Penn is aware that there is an issue. Penn wants my reel back for inspection. I have it boxed up but have not sent it out yet. Penn is covering shipping cost...Jeff
Penn and Steve are good people. I have the drawings at the cutter now.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 24, 2015, 11:24:28 PM
A text I received from Steve Carson stated that some of these reels "may have a slightly concave dog gear" . So Penn is aware that there is an issue. Penn wants my reel back for inspection. I have it boxed up but have not sent it out yet. Penn is covering shipping cost...Jeff
Every one I have worked on has a concaved AR ratchet or "dog gear". If they come back with a flat one then a lot of them will be needed.
handi2, While I have not worked on any Baja or newer US113 prior to receiving mine. However every available picture I have seen of the internals of it show a concave ratchet gear. So I will wait to see what mine has when it comes back from Penn.
Lee I am interested in this new ratchet gear. Being that Penn or no one in the know has announced anything different regarding this issue. New springs also if anything is done with coming up with stronger ones.
Why is the ratchet gear not integral with the gear sleeve like other Senators?
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 25, 2015, 01:22:53 AM
handi2, While I have not worked on any Baja or newer US113 prior to receiving mine. However every available picture I have seen of the internals of it show a concave ratchet gear. So I will wait to see what mine has when it comes back from Penn.
Lee I am interested in this new ratchet gear. Being that Penn or no one in the know has announced anything different regarding this issue. New springs also if anything is done with coming up with stronger ones.
Why is the ratchet gear not integral with the gear sleeve like other Senators?
The ratchet is much larger than one on the original 113. It would take a ton of machining to turn one down - plus the gear sleeve would also have to be stainless- which it is not right now. Larger ratchets and bronze gear sleeves do have some advantages.
Since the drag stack pushes the gear against the ratchet, a separate ratchet should not be a problem (barring another design issue). After all, the main gear floats on the sleeve as well.
Speaking of design issues- I want to update something I said on the other thread on the Baja Special. It looks like the stock dog spring design is intended to lift the dog up against the main gear. Unfortunately it also acts as a fulcrum for tilting the dog- which is probably what caused the dog post to get lifted out. Maybe a wide washer that raises the dog a bit is a good idea after all. If it has a slot cut in it, the same or similar spring could be used. I am not a fan of the floating floppy dogs. Something that keeps the dog flat would have to be an improvement.
-J
The pins the dogs go on are a good fit and I don't that as a problem. A larger OD delrin under washer might help hold down the dogs.
jurelometer, thanks for that answer.
My thoughts are after the improved gear thicker than factory dogs might be an advantage. One could play with shims/washers to find what thickness would work.
The spring issue, could heavier gauge wire be used for this spring to achieve better results? There just doesn't seem to be enough room for a pull type spring or much of anything I could think of.
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 25, 2015, 04:04:14 AM
jurelometer, thanks for that answer.
My thoughts are after the improved gear thicker than factory dogs might be an advantage. One could play with shims/washers to find what thickness would work.
The spring issue, could heavier gauge wire be used for this spring to achieve better results? There just doesn't seem to be enough room for a pull type spring or much of anything I could think of.
I think that order to make the ratchet significantly thicker, it has to be hollowed out to clear the stuff underneath it. My guess is that there is not enough room to do that without increasing the outside diameter of the ratchet. But probably not enough room to clear the dog posts. So the spring lifts the dog up to the ratchet, but does not support it. Making a super thick dog is an clever idea. The key is providing surfaces on both sides of the dog so that it will always lie flat. A washer or thick dog could have a notch to allow the spring arrangement to be the same.
From MysticParts:
(https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/parts/98r_113hn.jpg)
A wider undergear washer is a good idea, but since the dog is diving under the ratchet, this is not the primary problem
I posted a formula for calculating the force on the dog post for a given drag setting. I'll bet that it is sufficient to pull out a dog post if it is pushing up the post at an angle (dog tilted). If I can find it, I'll post the actual load for this reel here. Every time the dog engages at at angle, it is like a hammer tapping a punch up on the dog post.
Of course Lee gets first, second, third vote, and tie break(plus he counts the votes), since he is stepping up to design and make the test parts.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Keta, when you get that 113hn gear sleeve of the post, please measure the thickness of the lower flange lip. I think if the lip were ground off, then the ratchet would sit closer to flush with the bottom of the sleeve and line up equally with the dog pawls when they lay flat(maybe a thin sizes to inside of gear teeth groove in diameter to act as a bearing surface.
Remove the spring arm from under the dog so it isn't elevated(rearrange spring for engagement of course), place a delrin washer under the gear and slot(groove) the dog posts to accept a c-clip to retain the dog from floating up and in theory voila!
I would prefer a FLAT AR ratchet of course with deeper more defined teeth also to improve the bite.
Just my first guess from the photos I've seen. Just thinking outloud.
C clips are not really going to work due to space restrictions, the gear or delrin washer holds the dog down well. The reel I'm using is not mine so I can't grind the flange on the bottom of the gearsleeve but I could cut a thicker ratchet and have a counter bore turned on a lathe and do the same thing. A raised section on the bridge under the AR dog could helpkeep the dog from deflecting under the ratchet
The reel I'm using is not mine and I can't/won't silver solder or alter the bridge. Dropping $30.00 for a bridge w/gearsleeve I might destroy is not going to happen. I might try to cut a thick AR dog and grind it so the spring can fit under it.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 25, 2015, 04:41:22 AMOf course Lee gets first, second, third vote, and tie break(plus he counts the votes), since he is stepping up to design and make the test parts.
This is a group project and any input will be considered. I might even "force" myself to get a US113N. ;D
Quote from: jurelometer on July 25, 2015, 04:41:22 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 25, 2015, 04:04:14 AM
jurelometer, thanks for that answer.
My thoughts are after the improved gear thicker than factory dogs might be an advantage. One could play with shims/washers to find what thickness would work.
The spring issue, could heavier gauge wire be used for this spring to achieve better results? There just doesn't seem to be enough room for a pull type spring or much of anything I could think of.
I think that order to make the ratchet significantly thicker, it has to be hollowed out to clear the stuff underneath it. My guess is that there is not enough room to do that without increasing the outside diameter of the ratchet. But probably not enough room to clear the dog posts. So the spring lifts the dog up to the ratchet, but does not support it. Making a super thick dog is an clever idea. The key is providing surfaces on both sides of the dog so that it will always lie flat. A washer or thick dog could have a notch to allow the spring arrangement to be the same.
From Scotts:
(https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/parts/98r_113hn.jpg)
A wider undergear washer is a good idea, but since the dog is diving under the ratchet, this is not the primary problem
I posted a formula for calculating the force on the dog post for a given drag setting. I'll bet that it is sufficient to pull out a dog post if it is pushing up the post at an angle (dog tilted). If I can find it, I'll post the actual load for this reel here. Every time the dog engages at at angle, it is like a hammer tapping a punch up on the dog post.
Of course Lee gets first, second, third vote, and tie break(plus he counts the votes), since he is stepping up to design and make the test parts.
So I found the tool. The force on the dog (assuming 2.75 spool/line diameter + 25 lbs drag) is around 400 lbs- if my math is correct (odds: 50/50 :). Now if this force is directed up and out instead of sideways- tap tap tap, every time the dog engages- this will be tough on a press fit post. It should lever out at some point. I'm liking Riverrat's idea of a a real fat dog more and more.
The calculator is here: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.msg145318#msg145318 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.msg145318#msg145318)
-J
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Quote from: Keta on July 25, 2015, 05:17:08 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on July 25, 2015, 04:41:22 AMOf course Lee gets first, second, third vote, and tie break(plus he counts the votes), since he is stepping up to design and make the test parts.
This is a group project and any input will be considered. I might even "force" myself to get a US113N. ;D
But seriously, thanks for doing this. Otherwise it is just a bunch of us talking.
Yea, I don't have one either. Just saw the posts and the original AT photo and saw where one dog was chewed up like RR at the tip. I think if penn went all the way down on the sleeve like Newell's and the newer 2nd gen SS sleeves in production, they could've gotten the ratchet to sit down flat and not be elevated and therefore trying to match the height difference with the dogs.
I didn't actually mean for you to chop up someone else's gear sleeve, I guess I wrote that wrong.oops!
If the ratchet laid flat against the bridge then your thinner ss dogs would work and maybe room for the small c-clips or not. In that case with a smaller dog(thinner) maybe shorter posts.
This would be of course with something you could modify to try(not someone else's stuff). I hope I'm not hurting the effort, just thinking out loud.
I really was contemplating one but as soon as I saw these problems a while back I decided to build a YTS tank of my own.
Hope you guys get it figured out, seems to be the only weak link.
Quote from: 1Forecon on July 25, 2015, 05:55:33 AM
I didn't actually mean for you to chop up someone else's gear sleeve, I guess I wrote that wrong.oops!
You brought up another possible cure, if it was my reel I might do it.
Quote from: Keta on July 25, 2015, 06:04:39 AM
Quote from: 1Forecon on July 25, 2015, 05:55:33 AM
I didn't actually mean for you to chop up someone else's gear sleeve, I guess I wrote that wrong.oops!
You brought up another possible cure, if it was my reel I might do it.
Lee if you need a gear sleeve to modify I have available, but it don't have the dog posts, if it still good for you to make changes and tests I can send it to you.
It's the one on this thread
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14398.msg147513#msg147513
Since if was damaged on the dog posts it was going to the trash but I keep it for the gear sleeve.
As spare when needed
Maybe you can made some SS posts and put them on it with epoxic to make it work.
Let me know
Return it when you finish all tests ..if got broken on the process at least it don't belong to a working reel.
Let's see if we can do a drop in fix first.
Sounds good Lee, just wanted to let you know
Lee if your needing a Bridge or anything to help out speak up. I will get a hold of Scott's & get one or two sent to you. I very much want to see this issue fixed in the most reasonable right & economical manner. No need for you to absorb all the R&D cost that those of who want this will benefit from.
With the ratchet gear you come up with along with a thicker dog or dog used with delrin washer, this may be enough of an arrangement to get us where we want to be. But that still leaves the spring. If someone posted about it I missed it.
Any thoughts on using heavier gauge wire for the spring? Or different spring arrangement...Jeff
If I need one I will ask. I'd rather see 10 or more of us put in $3.00 or less than one person footing the entire bill. The cost of cutting and my time are free, things like this keep my mind and hands busy.... like building a pole barn by myself doesn't take up time.
HOWEVER, I'm heading to the coast this afternoon to chase albacore and visit with friends and family for a few days.
Lee, again I appreciate you taking on this project. I'd be happy to make a contribution to help the cause and I like your idea of spreading it out among a bunch of people. Where does the R&D support need to be sent too?
Thanks again, .. Lou
P.S. are you making SS dog's for the Penn Squidder?
Not yet on the Squidder and we will wait until the "easy" fixes for the US113 are tried. We don't want to get a lot of $ in this as I'm sure Penn is looking into it too.
Quote from: Keta on July 25, 2015, 04:13:05 PMWe don't want to get a lot of $ in this as I'm sure Penn is looking into it too.
My thoughts also. I can tell you Penn actively watches this sight.....Jeff
The lip on the bottom of the gear sleeve cannot be ground off. That lip is what opposes the force the drag star places on the drag stack. Without that lip, tightening the drag star would force the main gear into contact with the bridge, and put the entire load onto the slam pin that secures the gear sleeve to the bridge.
The ratchet can only go on one way. Flipping it over will result in the teeth facing the wrong direction.
My recommendation is a new ratchet with a few less teeth, and new dogs, both waterjet cut. I think this would be strong enough to shift the potential failure point elsewhere. Remember, it doesn't have to be strong enough to stop a submarine, it just needs to be stronger than the next weakest part.
I have 16T ratchets with 16T specific AR dogs drawn and at the cutter now.
The more I look at this reel the more I like what Penn has done.
Quote from: Keta on July 25, 2015, 07:55:41 PM
The more I look at this reel the more I like what Penn has done.
Again my same feelings & why I'm so interested in this.
If the lip below the squared shank that mates with the ratchet must stay as opposed to placing a delrin washer there--- then how about a ratchet that has a high wall inside and maintains it square contact points then drops down flush around the lip(stepped??). So it sits lower, near flush with the bridge and there is equal lateral force being applied by the OEM dogs and making the rachet teeth portion thicker or keep it thin(ratchet) but now lower it and use thinner(Keta) SS washers and add the smaller c-clip above them or not(if a washer will keep the dogs in place to keep them lined up laterally.
Can you envision what I just described? I'm not a metalworker or engineer mind you.
I can envision what you are saying, I believe that would be a good option.
I said something similar here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14838.msg153218#msg153218
Sal
Yea I read that too. All that keeps going through my simple little head is the dogs are huge to compensate for a bent/sloping down rounded edge ratchet(read-cheap). The dogs are tilting due to the spring used, they float up and down on the posts and do not sit flush against the bridge-so why not make everything flush against the bridge and if needed apply a delrin washer to work as a bearing surface under it to keep it from galling the bridge. Either a thicker edge and deeper ratchet for the dogs to bite and not be tilted off kilter and bust the edges of the dogs and rounding off the ratchet.
Easy to say, but I've yet to build anything myself! I'm part of the peanut gallery mind you.
I see what your seeing obviously.
The picture in the other thread Sal mentioned does not have the springs in place. The springs lift the dog off the bridge, and ideally would keep the dog up against the bottom of the main gear where it can better contact the ratchet.
I don't see a design flaw there, other than the springs being a bit on the thin/weak side. The dogs are a precision fit on their posts, so there is little chance of tilting or misalignment. The problem in riverrats case appeared to be the pin the dogs ride on coming loose from the bridge, and the pin itself causing the misalignment of the dogs.
A possible option may be new dogs with a cool spring like the jigmaster bridges Alan C offers. Then a delrin washer under the dog to act as a spacer.
Quote from: Three se7ens on July 25, 2015, 11:35:40 PM
The picture in the other thread Sal mentioned does not have the springs in place. The springs lift the dog off the bridge, and ideally would keep the dog up against the bottom of the main gear where it can better contact the ratchet.
I don't see a design flaw there, other than the springs being a bit on the thin/weak side. The dogs are a precision fit on their posts, so there is little chance of tilting or misalignment. The problem in riverrats case appeared to be the pin the dogs ride on coming loose from the bridge, and the pin itself causing the misalignment of the dogs.
A possible option may be new dogs with a cool spring like the jigmaster bridges Alan C offers. Then a delrin washer under the dog to act as a spacer.
If the dog is aligned until the post is pushed out, then changing the dogs or ratchet will not help, right?
Judging by the photos, once the dog is lifted by the spring it is up past the the top of the post, or at least into the rounded portion, maybe that is where the wobble room comes from. If the dog is being driven under the ratchet, either the dog is tilting, or the ratchet is. The only other option is that the small amount of dog that actually contacts the ratchet is sheared away. But then the post will not come loose.
At any rate, I would still argue that a design where the dog is not supported by a flat surface is not ideal. The more the dog is pushing laterally against the post, the better. I think we are all leaning toward either better support of the lifted dog or a thicker dog. I like the idea of a thicker dog, as it should help keep the force more in the lateral direction. something like this:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6aLwDn1WH5s/VbQx6WECwDI/AAAAAAAAAHY/6rFORbZcOls/s640-Ic42/Part2.jpg)
Dropping the ratchet teeth down toward the bridge may be a better fix , but not sure if it is possible. These type of parts would both require a little bit of machining and cant be just laser or waterjet cut.
Looking at the original layout, just improving the ratchet teeth should make a huge difference. Maybe that will be enough???
I like the redesigned dog idea. Wouldn't it be easier to just use a flat dog, with a spacer/bushing underneith?
Quote from: jurelometer on July 26, 2015, 01:21:29 AM
Quote from: Three se7ens on July 25, 2015, 11:35:40 PM
The picture in the other thread Sal mentioned does not have the springs in place. The springs lift the dog off the bridge, and ideally would keep the dog up against the bottom of the main gear where it can better contact the ratchet.
I don't see a design flaw there, other than the springs being a bit on the thin/weak side. The dogs are a precision fit on their posts, so there is little chance of tilting or misalignment. The problem in riverrats case appeared to be the pin the dogs ride on coming loose from the bridge, and the pin itself causing the misalignment of the dogs.
A possible option may be new dogs with a cool spring like the jigmaster bridges Alan C offers. Then a delrin washer under the dog to act as a spacer.
If the dog is aligned until the post is pushed out, then changing the dogs or ratchet will not help, right?
Judging by the photos, once the dog is lifted by the spring it is up past the the top of the post, or at least into the rounded portion, maybe that is where the wobble room comes from. If the dog is being driven under the ratchet, either the dog is tilting, or the ratchet is. The only other option is that the small amount of dog that actually contacts the ratchet is sheared away. But then the post will not come loose.
At any rate, I would still argue that a design where the dog is not supported by a flat surface is not ideal. The more the dog is pushing laterally against the post, the better. I think we are all leaning toward either better support of the lifted dog or a thicker dog. I like the idea of a thicker dog, as it should help keep the force more in the lateral direction. something like this:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6aLwDn1WH5s/VbQx6WECwDI/AAAAAAAAAHY/6rFORbZcOls/s640-Ic42/Part2.jpg)
Dropping the ratchet teeth down toward the bridge may be a better fix , but not sure if it is possible. These type of parts would both require a little bit of machining and cant be just laser or waterjet cut.
Looking at the original layout, just improving the ratchet teeth should make a huge difference. Maybe that will be enough???
Dave, I agree with you 100%, dogs need to be supported by a flat surface.
Dropping the ratchet teeth towards the bridge should be possible and should also help quite a bit on this reel. I know you could do it if you wanted to, I've seen your work ;D, no need for many, one or two should do it.
Once tested, they could be sent to Penn for mass production...just a suggestion.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on July 26, 2015, 01:26:09 AM
I like the redesigned dog idea. Wouldn't it be easier to just use a flat dog, with a spacer/bushing underneith?
A wide/tall bushing would be an improvement- but I think we want the force to be a close to the bridge plate a possible to minimize the leverage on the dog posts.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 26, 2015, 12:52:00 PM
[snip]
Dave, I agree with you 100%, dogs need to be supported by a flat surface.
Dropping the ratchet teeth towards the bridge should be possible and should also help quite a bit on this reel. I know you could do it if you wanted to, I've seen your work ;D, no need for many, one or two should do it.
Once tested, they could be sent to Penn for mass production...just a suggestion.
Are you sure there is room- looking at the photos, it seems a bit tight? There might not be enough meat to cut out the relief.
Plus I have seen your handiwork- I am sure you could grind out a couple beauties with your dremel long before I finished machining one from scratch :)
I would guess it would be awhile before Penn came out with a fix of their own if needed. It would have to be included in all the new US Senator models and then offered as replacement parts for current reels.
2D cut parts will be cheaper aftermarket alternatives. Maybe I got too fancy with the dog design. A simple 2D cut dog that is nice and thick, resting on a thin delrin washer- with a tiny hole or notch to accommodate a spring? Combined with a cleaner cut ratchet- it should work better,
I have a nagging suspicion that Adam may be right, if not now, as soon as the dogs and ratchet get fixed. 400lbs is a lot of force on the dog posts. This is just a general problem with the combo of high lb star drags, high gear ratios and tall spools. The force is multiplied and directed at the dog post (and after that, the pinion/spool junction -don't get me started on floating pinions on big reels ).
I always liked the idea of screwing the dog post into the bridge through the sideplate so that the dog posts are mechanically connected to the bridge and supported on both sides. Guess this is not an option here- plus the 5-40 screws are bit skinny for the the job.
Another question - would it be possible to screw a sideplate (with gear and star) to a workbench to watch the failure, and observe any improvement with new parts? Or does the sideplate act to contain the dog? Something along these lines:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.msg147255#msg147255
-J.
My brain keeps saying keep the dogs down on the posts to avoid extra shearing force by riding high and possible canting since just a thin piece of spring is trying to keep it level and supported at the correct height causing post failure as RR endured by riding up, canting, diving under the ratchet, etc..
I don't like the spring under the dogs causing canting, I also think if Penn just flipped the lip and squared ratchet cutout on the sleeve this probably could have ben avoided. Keep the lip(rounded smaller in diameter than the squared end for the ratchet so you can still slide the ratchet down around it). The ratchet would sit near flat against the bridge with a delrin washer under it to prevent galling, the gears could still be supported above it on the round lip and the ratchet wouldn't be floating(elevated above the bridge with that GAP!).
Flip the spring design so it rides over the top of whatever dog you use to keep it (dog) from riding up the post and keeps it aligned with the ratchet
laterally. Those (as you can tell, I really like the idea of small c-clips to keep the dogs down and always on the posts) darn dogs and springs are always walking off!
If anyone has a spare sleeve(sacrificial), is there enough material on the lower flange to cut it square to accept the ratchet? Simply measuring this would suffice. Then with a delrin washer or a bearing between the ratchet and the bottom of gear(like Sal's done before) if you feel it needs it, would eliminate any further friction of the bottom of the gears in the drag stack. This would lower it( ratchet) closer to the bridge and lessen the gap and I think eliminate the problem as I see it.---In my Opinion, the GAP between the bridge and the ratchet is the Problem! It leads to the floating dogs, etc.........
Additionally, as has been discussed, a flatter cut ratchet(not stamped or curved) would help facilitate the correct mating of the surfaces between the dogs and the ratchet. It is my understanding the amount of teeth correlates to the lessening of handle slop without the addition of an ARB at the top of the sleeve? I think simply from looking at these photos that the ratchet teeth don't look deep or proud thus allowing more of a chance of slippage or improper bite. But, if more accomplished folks say they're fine than so be it. I am only using a comparison from the 113h ratchet as my basis as well as the other couple of reels I've been in.
Shame I can't just walk into the garage and whip out a fresh sleeve! Soon, I hope but no tools like that in my garage just yet.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 26, 2015, 06:29:13 PM
Are you sure there is room- looking at the photos, it seems a bit tight? There might not be enough meat to cut out the relief.
Plus I have seen your handiwork- I am sure you could grind out a couple beauties with your dremel long before I finished machining one from scratch :)
Yes, I believe it could be done, but I'm not equipped to do so. If a new ratchet is made, lets say double in thickness, only the squared area needs to be recessed halfway. Here is a shot of what I'm talking about, the area marked by the red arrow would get recessed half way:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/98r_113hn%201%202.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/98r_113hn%201%202.jpg.html)
Since Lee is already on it, it is a good idea to see what he comes up with and how it performs first.
just want to watch the progress
Lee, amigo, any news on this?
Still waiting on the cutter, I'll run over in the morning before I take my boat out for a test run.
another idea (sort of an enhancement on the under-dog washer idea) : a c-shaped delrin plate with holes for the dog posts, and maybe notches for improved dog springs if needed. The plate would be just the right height and location to provide lateral support for the dogs and a mounting point for dog springs.
So an upgrade kit could be made with all 2D cuts on a laser or waterjet:
1. stainless ratchet with flat cut teeth
2. delrin dog support plate
3. stainless dogs (if you decide to go with fewer teeth on the ratchet)
4. dog springs
5. extra wide delrin under gear washer (if needed to provide lateral support the top of the dogs. need a bit of clearance here. We don't want the dogs to be squeezed under load/tilt
The idea here is to get the maximum surfsce to surface engagement, dogs supported laterally, well sprung for positive engagement, while keeping as close to the original design as possible.
I can sketch out the idea if this is not clear enough. I'd try it myself, but I don't want to buy one of these reels :P
I can contribute a couple dog support plate prototypes if needed.
-J
Reply to "J" and Keta.
About 4-5 years ago I purchased 4 Baja Specials 113hn from a seller on ebay who had 6 of them for sale. I went thru all 4 of these and gave 3 to my kids--who are over 50 years old--and kept 1 for myself. I personally serviced all of these(using Alan's tutorial) and found nothing wrong with them. I had trouble with everyone of them getting them back together properly--because of the dogs and spring configurations. I am probably the only one of the family who uses this reel regularly or at least semi-regularly--as it is in Baja and that is where I use it, but is NOT where I live. Normally, I spend at least 3-4 months a year in Baja and try to fish as often as possible. The only upgrade I have made to this reel is to install one of Alan's 5/0 knobs on it. It has never failed me and I have caught many YFT to 40-50 lbs, 1 marlin(100lbs), 1 wahoo--about 60lbs and an Amberjack--about 50#'s. I have also caught countless dorado and other Baja fish (such as Sierra's and Cabrilla). I have never had a problem with the reel, much less a failure.
If either of you feel that you can solve this Baja Special problem by having one of these reels as a model, I will send you one of them to tear apart and study and try to find a solution to this dog(or any other) problem. All I would ask is to receive the reel back in the same condition or better (if upgrades are possible). Again to my knowledge--THEIR IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THESE REELS RIGHT NOW. I would just like to help find a solution to this problem and I guarantee you I do NOT have this knowledge to even understand everything you guys are saying. I just trust you both to have above-average technical knowledge of reels and eventually get back to me with a reel improved with your modifications or at least in the same condition that is in now.---Just to be clear, I can probably send each of you a reel that has probably not been used since I serviced it 2-3 yrs ago.
Reply to "J" and Keta.
About 4-5 years ago I purchased 4 Baja Specials 113hn from a seller on ebay who had 6 of them for sale. I went thru all 4 of these and gave 3 to my kids--who are over 50 years old--and kept 1 for myself. I personally serviced all of these(using Alan's tutorial) and found nothing wrong with them. I had trouble with everyone of them getting them back together properly--because of the dogs and spring configurations. I am probably the only one of the family who uses this reel regularly or at least semi-regularly--as it is in Baja and that is where I use it, but is NOT where I live. Normally, I spend at least 3-4 months a year in Baja and try to fish as often as possible. The only upgrade I have made to this reel is to install one of Alan's 5/0 knobs on it. It has never failed me and I have caught many YFT to 40-50 lbs, 1 marlin(100lbs), 1 wahoo--about 60lbs and an Amberjack--about 50#'s. I have also caught countless dorado and other Baja fish (such as Sierra's and Cabrilla). I have never had a problem with the reel, much less a failure.
If either of you feel that you can solve this Baja Special problem by having one of these reels as a model, I will send you one of them to tear apart and study and try to find a solution to this dog(or any other) problem. All I would ask is to receive the reel back in the same condition or better (if upgrades are possible). Again to my knowledge--THEIR IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THESE REELS RIGHT NOW. I would just like to help find a solution to this problem and I guarantee you I do NOT have this knowledge to even understand everything you guys are saying. I just trust you both to have above-average technical knowledge of reels and eventually get back to me with a reel improved with your modifications or at least in the same condition that is in now.---Just to be clear, I can send each of you a reel that has probably not been used since I serviced it 2-3 yrs ago. Let me know if either of you is interested and an address to send the reel to.
TomT
Thanks for the offer Tom, I have one on the way now. I'm glad to hear your reels are working well.
Lee,
Well really only 1 out of the 4 gets used at least very much. I don't know anything about the original owner or my reels but I assume anyone with 6 of them for sale is because of commercial use. I have never used mine for anything but live-bait slow trolling in Baja waters. I have not had an issue with my reel with these conditions and decent fish. I don't want to come on as an expert on these reels--I just have had positive experiences and probably only purchased them after Alan's positive review. I will still offer one my reels (which hasn't been used since last service) to someone who is trying to solve this problem and needs a reel for measurements, etc
TomT
Hi Tom,
What # drag setting are you using? It seems the folks that run high drag settings are more likely to hit this problem. If you are not getting any dog scarring, then it may not be worth it for you to be one of the first to try the fix.
To properly lab test a fix, I would have to push the original design to failure, and then attempt to significantly surpass the original load with the fix. And then be able to reproduce the results. This means trashing several parts. So you don't want to send me your reel :)
There was a thread not too long ago on bench testing and measuring AR load, if anyone is interested on quantifying the improvements with Lee's prototypes.
-J
Nice for Tom to volunteer, but you make a good point Dave. Can't compare reels if they're not fished the same,the reel should only be tested by members that had issues.
Sal
Thanks to Sal and Dave fro their replies..I did not think that the reels would have to be tested to these extremes. I thought you needed a reel for measurements and to construct a new dog system. To answer your question on the drag I use, I don't really measure it. When I went thru these reels I did a similar test that Sal uses and used a fish scale to measure drags. I got a maximum drag from 4 of these reels of 20-22 lbs. But I had to get that measurement by backing up with the reel as I did not have the strength to turn the handle at drags above 12-15 lbs. ::) So when I am setting the drag, I probably am not over 8#'s of drag--but that is not measured--just guestimated. Still did not have problems with any of the aforementioned fish. Good Luck with your quest for improving these reels.
TomT
Quote from: TomT on September 12, 2015, 05:48:28 AM
Thanks to Sal and Dave fro their replies..I did not think that the reels would have to be tested to these extremes. I thought you needed a reel for measurements and to construct a new dog system. To answer your question on the drag I use, I don't really measure it. When I went thru these reels I did a similar test that Sal uses and used a fish scale to measure drags. I got a maximum drag from 4 of these reels of 20-22 lbs. But I had to get that measurement by backing up with the reel as I did not have the strength to turn the handle at drags above 12-15 lbs. ::) So when I am setting the drag, I probably am not over 8#'s of drag--but that is not measured--just guestimated. Still did not have problems with any of the aforementioned fish. Good Luck with your quest for improving these reels.
TomT
8 lbs of drag is about only 30% of the supported max drag setting for the BS. My guess is you will be fine unless you start fishing for large yellowtail near the bottom, or are fishing far enough south to get into 100lb+ yellowfin. At that you you will need to push up the drag to land fish.
I like the bench testing first approach, but I expect that Lee is not interested in trashing his or anybody else's reels, so if we get a prototype in the hands of somebody who is consistently frying their dogs, and the problem goes away, that will be plenty of evidence.
Quote from: jurelometer on September 12, 2015, 06:23:51 AM
I like the bench testing first approach, but I expect that Lee is not interested in trashing his or anybody else's reels, so if we get a prototype in the hands of somebody who is consistently frying their dogs, and the problem goes away, that will be plenty of evidence.
That's right, I will return the US113/113N in the same shape I get it, well if it needs a servicing I'll do that. The "destructive testing" I'll leave to the owner.
Where we at with this presently ?....Jeff
First thing....THIS IS NOT PENN'S FAULT IN ANY WAY .....AT ALL !
I openly admit I was fishing this reel past the drag Penn has told me in direct conversation was OK.
While using this reel I discovered when the drag was set above 25 lbs.There was noticeable resistance when cranking the handle. Much like you feel in a lever drag that has been set to heavy. I discovered this was from the spring washers under the star making contact with the sideplate. So I added a spacer to gain more clearance.
lt is my belief this reel will give many years of service fished with a drag of 20 lbs. Fished with a drag of 25 lbs. & above, with the constant pulling of large fish to you thats needed because of the gearing, this is putting a tremendous level of stress on the dog's post & anti reverse gear. This reel was being fished over 30 lbs.of drag
In the picture you can see the post have been pushed out & the damage to the tooth on the gear.
Im thinking the post can be the same size to fit the dog. However being a larger diameter going into the bridge & being attached by fine threads or by brazing or hard solder would give more strength.
I know they are frowned upon by some however I believe this situation would benefit from Ambassadeur
style dogs. Along with the larger diameter of the post being brought up above the bridge surface to support the dogs ....Jeff
The threads on the stud look a little chewed too. I'm surprised they didn't go out before the base was pushed off the stud.
This is a fantastic reel. Probably at its best with 50 lb. line only because of the gearing used. I'd love a 2:1 gear set in this reel. However if one is alright with pumping the rod & reeling down on fish as I am, it will I believe fish 80 lb. line with a drag set at 25 lbs. with few if any issues. For how long is my question. Any more drag a Penn 12 or 16 VSX or similar caliber reel would be better.
I have learned a lot using this reel. I have had other failures with this reel. All of my own doing. Through these failures along with the halp & direction from others here on this sight I have learned a great deal regarding what I need & will look for in a reel to perform at a certain level. But yes I believe this reel is a keeper...Jeff
Quote from: MarkT on March 22, 2016, 09:13:04 PM
The threads on the stud look a little chewed too. I'm surprised they didn't go out before the base was pushed off the stud.
Is that "bite" marks from the drag washers a little farther down?
Is it rude to keep asking what's up with this project?
When Lee says it's right and ready I'm going to jump. 8)
On hold until I get the time, early November at best.
Hi Lee,
What are you doing with this project? The reason I ask is because I was asked if I could increase the drag stack by 1 more HT-100 drag washer. I have Wayne D's reel right now for measurement, but if you are also doing this, I'll leave it to you. Please let me know.
Thanks,
Bryan
This one is going to be a hard one. The keyed washers on the Baja are .52mm in thickness, the Carbon fiber washers are 1.10mm. ( these are the ones I have and only have one set, so correct me if I'm wrong)
Not sure if this is valid or not, but during my personal tests, the carbon fiber washers that were less than 1mm didn't do too good.
On the 113HX, I requested carbon fibers washers to be at least 1mm and up, Adam's are 1mm as well.
If you replace the existing 1.10 carbon fiber washers with the 1mm washers, you still won't have enough room for an additional washer.
The bottom of the main gear is 3.35mm in thickness, maybe you could shave .50mm off, that might do it, but it is a lot of work.
I'll be anxiously waiting to see what you guys come up with.
Thanks Sal. I have yet to open the reel up to do some measurements. If I cannot make it work with the HT-100s, it would not be worth it because it'll be difficult to find a fiberglass reinforced drag washer to take the sheer load.
I was working on AR ratchets and dogs, the drag is about as good as we can do with carbon fiber drag material.
Lee, I too was referring to the AR ratchet and dogs tooling. Thanks.
Yup.