I will be starting my rod building and repair workbench soon. I have a question for you. If it's ok.
I have seen only 2 spiral wrapped rods to date. What is the advantage of this type of wrap? Where does the "backbone" go on a casting rod? Top or bottom?
TIA
Ralph
RA you have a PM
The spine is always in the same location no matter what type of rod you are building or what guide placement you are going with. When you spine a rod in your hands (both hands out near the tip, rod butt in the air), and you rotate it, you'll feel it snap into a specific location. Now... regardless of what type of rod we are building, the blank is going to be in this orientation when fishing it. What i mean by that is that the components change their location, the blank doesn't. If you were building a spinning rod, the guides and reelseat would be on the bottom of the rod in this position. Conventional rod=reel seat up and guides up. Spiral=reelseat up and guides rotating to the 180 degree position.
In regards to the advantage of a spiral wrapped rod, think about it like this: if you wrapped each guide on the rod with only 3 thread wraps and wrapped it conventionally, put a reel on there, put the line through the guides and loaded the rod, what's going to happen to the guides? They'll flip to the bottom of the rod. Now...if you secure the guides with epoxy, that twist is going to be applied to the blank and in turn you have to now overcome that twisting pressure with your grip on the foregrip. Additionally....if you spiral wrap the rod, the pressure on the guides under the rod will actually override the weight of the reel when there is a load on the rod. What I mean by that is that you'll be able to open your hand on the foregrip while turning the handle of the reel and the rod won't want to flip to the reel down orientation.
People may disagree, but other than "spiral wrapped rods look weird", there are positively zero reasons not to spiral wrap any baitcasting/conventional rod. The ONLY rod i would ever even consider not spiral wrapping would be a rod designed for distance casting competitions. Tests have been performed and at most, with the most aggressive spiral method (ie: 2guide transition), you'll lose about 5% distance. If I'm fishing, that 5% doesn't matter. If I'm casting for money, different story.
Quote from: Jon Vadney on March 16, 2016, 11:02:17 AM
The spine is always in the same location no matter what type of rod you are building or what guide placement you are going with. When you spine a rod in your hands (both hands out near the tip, rod butt in the air), and you rotate it, you'll feel it snap into a specific location. Now... regardless of what type of rod we are building, the blank is going to be in this orientation when fishing it. What i mean by that is that the components change their location, the blank doesn't. If you were building a spinning rod, the guides and reelseat would be on the bottom of the rod in this position. Conventional rod=reel seat up and guides up. Spiral=reelseat up and guides rotating to the 180 degree position.
In regards to the advantage of a spiral wrapped rod, think about it like this: if you wrapped each guide on the rod with only 3 thread wraps and wrapped it conventionally, put a reel on there, put the line through the guides and loaded the rod, what's going to happen to the guides? They'll flip to the bottom of the rod. Now...if you secure the guides with epoxy, that twist is going to be applied to the blank and in turn you have to now overcome that twisting pressure with your grip on the foregrip. Additionally....if you spiral wrap the rod, the pressure on the guides under the rod will actually override the weight of the reel when there is a load on the rod. What I mean by that is that you'll be able to open your hand on the foregrip while turning the handle of the reel and the rod won't want to flip to the reel down orientation.
People may disagree, but other than "spiral wrapped rods look weird", there are positively zero reasons not to spiral wrap any baitcasting/conventional rod. The ONLY rod i would ever even consider not spiral wrapping would be a rod designed for distance casting competitions. Tests have been performed and at most, with the most aggressive spiral method (ie: 2guide transition), you'll lose about 5% distance. If I'm fishing, that 5% doesn't matter. If I'm casting for money, different story.
Jon: I have a question. On a conventional rod facing the reel up where do you turn the guides? To the right or Left? And is there a degree of twist for guide positioning?
Joe
On a conventional setup I always spiral to the left. There is then a tendency for the line to build-up more at the left hand end of the reel. This can be easily countered by 'pushing' the line with your left thumb. It becomes second nature almost immediately. It is much easier than trying to guide the line onto the reel by pushing and pulling :)
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on March 16, 2016, 11:41:14 AM
On a conventional setup I always spiral to the left. There is then a tendency for the line to build-up more at the left hand end of the reel. This can be easily countered by 'pushing' the line with your left thumb. It becomes second nature almost immediately. It is much easier than trying to guide the line onto the reel by pushing and pulling :)
I spiral them the opposite direction of the reel handle on any setup where a reel without a levelwind will be used. On freshwater rods, I spiral them the direction of the handle. The reason for this is a lot of times people are setting the rods on the ground/deck of their bass boats and when you spiral them the direction of the handle, the guides will face up when the rod is laid down. A bass setup will rest on the sideplate when set down so spiraling the guides the direction of the handle helps to protect the guides by keeping them facing up.
In terms of degrees for the rotation, there are no formulas. You have to static test. I bend the rod close to maximum and look at the line going through the transition guides. What I'm looking for is the line to make a straight path from the top to the bottom of the rod when viewed from the side. I don't want there to be lateral pressure on the transition guides and this is how I avoid that.
Quote from: Jon Vadney on March 16, 2016, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on March 16, 2016, 11:41:14 AM
On a conventional setup I always spiral to the left. There is then a tendency for the line to build-up more at the left hand end of the reel. This can be easily countered by 'pushing' the line with your left thumb. It becomes second nature almost immediately. It is much easier than trying to guide the line onto the reel by pushing and pulling :)
I spiral them the opposite direction of the reel handle on any setup where a reel without a levelwind will be used. On freshwater rods, I spiral them the direction of the handle. The reason for this is a lot of times people are setting the rods on the ground/deck of their bass boats and when you spiral them the direction of the handle, the guides will face up when the rod is laid down. A bass setup will rest on the sideplate when set down so spiraling the guides the opposite direction of the handle helps to protect the guides by keeping them facing up.
In terms of degrees for the rotation, there are no formulas. You have to static test. I bend the rod close to maximum and look at the line going through the transition guides. What I'm looking for is the line to make a straight path from the top to the bottom of the rod when viewed from the side. I don't want there to be lateral pressure on the transition guides and this is how I avoid that.
Thank you Jon.
Joe
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Now It get it.
I've built a few spiral rods for myself, and I'm always surprised when seasoned fishermen comment that they've never seen one before. That's another one of the benefits of building your own rods... Another term for this is an "acid wrap" - presumably because in the sixties when it was first introduced a comment was made that whoever wrapped that rod "must've been on acid". They work as advertised, Jon's comments were totally on point. I'll never wrap another casting rod conventionally again (for myself).
There's more info here http://www.acidrod.com/acidrods.html
Sid
All great stuff right here guys!
Thanks Sid. That was a very interesting read. I get it now, Jon, and it makes perfect sense.
I do the same as Jon and spiral in the direction of the handle for level-winds; opposite the handle for non-levelwind.
Initial guide spacing is the same as you would do for a normal conventional setup.
Next, with the stripper guide taped at 0°, the two transitions are turned and taped at 60° and 120°, and the remaining runners turned and taped at 180°
Static test follows with the stripper and two transitions being adjusted accordingly.
One point that wasn't mentioned, is that for level-winds, it helps to offset the stripper 5-10° opposite the direction of spiral.
This helps to spool the line evenly, and avoid it piling up on one side of the spool.
To do so, simply cast or pull out 100 ft. or so of line with a weight tied at the end. Then reel it back on adjusting the stripper to an offset--such that the line defaults down the center of the blank as it is being spooled.
Chad
X2 on all the points above. All of my personal rods are spiral and most of my custom customers want spirals. Just makes fishing easier when you have a heavy one on the hook.
This old dog could never learn new spiral tricks... it's not for me. Guess I'm a Luddite; nothing I love more than looking through a perfectly aligned set of gleaming guides! 8)
~A~
Quote from: Aiala on March 21, 2016, 12:28:40 AM
This old dog could never learn new spiral tricks... it's not for me. Guess I'm a Luddite; nothing I love more than looking through a perfectly aligned set of gleaming guides! 8)
~A~
It is difficult to teach an old Salty dog new tricks. ;D ;D
I have a couple of acid rods, a g6470 and a g6480. They were wrapped by Jim Racela, J.Akuhed is his on-line handle, who came up with the term acid wrap. As in Dude! What's up with your rod? Were you on acid when you wrapped it?
I had the captain on the Excel staring at my 6470 when I was on a YT wondering what was up with that.
The only downside is bundling up the rods is a pain because the guides get in the way.
I think the original term for this spiral wrap was called, "Roberts wrap", but someone with more knowledge than me could correct that statement.
Quote from: thinkwahoo on March 21, 2016, 04:47:04 AM
I think the original term for this spiral wrap was called, "Roberts wrap", but someone with more knowledge than me could correct that statement.
Yes, the term "Roberts Wrap" is an early descriptor attributed to Joy Dunlap who is featured in Clemen's books. It is said that he named the wrap in order to credit the builder who taught him the technique.
"Acid Wrap" is another term for the spiral that seems to have originated on the West Coast. You also have the modern variants called Simple Spiral and O'Quinn Spiral--the first minimizes the use of transition guides, while the latter was developed for maximum casting distance using long surf rods.
However, the concept of wrapping guides in a spiral to take the line from the top of the blank to the bottom goes a lot further back; It was a style that was actually patented by a John Scanlan in 1909, yet didn't really catch on until recent years.
Chad
Again, this is great stuff. I need to keep asking questions if this is the response I get. Awesome! :)
Quote from: RiverAngler on March 21, 2016, 01:14:49 PM
Again, this is great stuff. I need to keep asking questions if this is the response I get. Awesome! :)
I think pretty much all of us are here to learn. We help each other that way :)
Sid
I've seen it referred to as a revolver wrap too.
Quote from: Newell Nut on March 21, 2016, 02:12:33 AM
It is difficult to teach an old Salty dog new tricks. ;D ;D
A-yuh... old and
very salty: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" ::) :D
~
A~
Aiala, if you tried a spiral wrap rod just once you would be convinced.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on March 21, 2016, 06:28:27 PM
Aiala, if you tried a spiral wrap rod just once you would be convinced. Sid
Sid, obviously the spiral is an excellent design for so many top-notch anglers to have adopted it with such enthusiasm. But trust me, I'm
WAY too linear/OCD/persnickety to ever tolerate such an unbalanced-looking set-up... seeing the line skew sideways like that would thoroughly upend my sense of order and bring on a severe case of mental agitation; in fact, I find it upsetting to even
look at pictures of an acid rod! :o ;D
~
A~
I'm with you Aiala. I though about acid wrap for light baitcasting because you could reduce the number of running guides, save a bit of weight at the tip and, in so doing, save even more weight in the butt when balancing. But, I just can't get over the weirdness factor.
-steve
You fight a good sized fish on an acid rod and you'll get why people like them. You fight the fish, not the rod. It's like using a spinning rod only you have a 'real' reel to crank with and you can lay it on the rail if you want/need to.
Quote from: Aiala on March 21, 2016, 06:52:53 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on March 21, 2016, 06:28:27 PM
Aiala, if you tried a spiral wrap rod just once you would be convinced. Sid
Sid, obviously the spiral is an excellent design for so many top-notch anglers to have adopted it with such enthusiasm. But trust me, I'm WAY too linear/OCD/persnickety to ever tolerate such an unbalanced-looking set-up... seeing the line skew sideways like that would thoroughly upend my sense of order and bring on a severe case of mental agitation; in fact, I find it upsetting to even look at pictures of an acid rod! :o ;D
~A~
;D ;D ;D Oh my god!
Joe
Quote from: MarkT on March 21, 2016, 09:01:06 PM
You fight a good-sized fish on an acid rod and you'll get why people like them. You fight the fish, not the rod. It's like using a spinning rod only you have a 'real' reel to crank with and you can lay it on the rail if you want/need to.
Mark, I like spinners a lot and have no problem fishing with them. But I have to be honest, after tussling with some of those fat Guadalupe tuna last fall, I really do NOT like using the rail... I found it stressed my back, my hands, my stamina, to say nothing of being hard on my gear. On my upcoming 8-day I am going to return to the (old-fashioned) belt and kidney harness lift-and-wind-down method. Slower, I know, and maybe I won't catch as many, but so what? I don't really need a quarter ton of filets. Besides, bumping up the boat's total fish count isn't a priority... for me, anyway. :)
~
A~
Aiala; I like a person the sticks to there convictions.
Joe
That's okay, they work just as well with a belt. You don't need a gimbal to keep the rod from twisting though!
Quote from: Aiala on March 21, 2016, 06:52:53 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on March 21, 2016, 06:28:27 PM
Aiala, if you tried a spiral wrap rod just once you would be convinced. Sid
Sid, obviously the spiral is an excellent design for so many top-notch anglers to have adopted it with such enthusiasm. But trust me, I'm WAY too linear/OCD/persnickety to ever tolerate such an unbalanced-looking set-up... seeing the line skew sideways like that would thoroughly upend my sense of order and bring on a severe case of mental agitation; in fact, I find it upsetting to even look at pictures of an acid rod! :o ;D
Thats exactly how I felt and then I went on a 2.5 day rockfishing trip and I won a raffle and Jon hands me my prize, a beautiful blue seeker with all these funky guides! what are you gonna do? hey thank you very much its absolutely beautiful! I cant just let it sit in the rod holder, so strap on a Penn accurized 99 and toss out, I thought I might break it on sharks twice but it is a surprisingly tough blank, then a big ling cod, then another, before I knew it I had landed about thirty fish and released all but the biggest.
I took it out with me for Salmon when I got back and landed numerous nice fish. Finished the season using it on local rock fish, I have to admit it is nice to fish and it is very comfortable. It is has now replaced no less than three rods. It is my catch everything in Monterey Bay rod now.
I went back and asked him to build one for my grandson! Its a beauty too and Im sure the kid is going to get years of service from it.
~A~
Quote from: Reel 224 on March 21, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
Aiala, I like a person who sticks to there convictions. Joe
Why thanks, Joe! This many decades along in life, I'm pretty well settled on what I do/don't like. ;)
~
A~
Quote from: Aiala on March 22, 2016, 01:06:26 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on March 21, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
Aiala, I like a person who sticks to there convictions. Joe
Why thanks, Joe! This many decades along in life, I'm pretty well settled on what I do/don't like. ;)
~A~
That's why I married Ruth, because she doesn't let anyone tell her what to DO!!!!
Including ME!! ;D
Joe