Two days ago this drag was grabbing when struck by a Blue Marlin which took 350 yds off. it wasn't nice to watch the 80lb rod buckle then spring back when the drag let go...
I cant see anything obvious wrong but im no drag expert.
What sort of washers are these?
Looks like some sort of woven cloth stuck to a stiff non metallic plate.
Duel did improve the drag on the newer model but they don't fit this reel. Ive written to Duel they couldnt help with this model.
Any advice on what I can do right now to get this drag ready for trolling for blues next week would be much appreciated.
Moving ahead I have 4 of these reels, is a conversion to better drag material a viable option and where would i get such washers?
Thankyou for any advice.
Some more photos.
The last one is from a couple of years back when I first bought the reels. I cleaned up all that corrosion and greased all surfaces and threads, I left the drag dry as ive heard greasing these old Duel washers can make them expand and you loose free spool... help.
They are made of carbon fiber cloth bonded to a non-metallic substrate, as their chief engineer told me many years ago, but i'm not sure what that substrate may be. If it appears to be layers of brown paper, there might be some merit to the no-grease thing, but if it seems more like fiberglass i wouldn't think so.
There have been discussions about the Duel drag washers here earlier, on a couple-three different threads. Use the search box up in the corner; you'll find them.
.
thanks for the feedback.
That substrate is very rigid, it may well be a fibreglass type product.
I have searched and read like you said 3 or 4 posts but nothing too specific, except for one chap in NZ who laser cut new SS plates and bonded carbontex from Dawn to them, ive emailed (bounced back) and PM'd him but viewing his most recent post was nearly a year ago, don't think ill hook up with him.
Do I lap the SS plates on glass with wet & dry to get some grip or polish them smooth etc that's the sort of feed back I'm after. Is using Cals on the fibre washers an option or will they swell like the original NZ poster said.
Clearer photos;
Ah, right... you mean Locknut. No, idunno what became of him.
QuoteDo I lap the SS plates on glass with wet & dry to get some grip or polish them smooth etc that's the sort of feed back I'm after.
No, it is unlikely that you will necessarily end up with a better surface than what you have already. Clean and free from crud, rust, salt and surface damage is good though.
QuoteIs using Cals on the fibre washers an option or will they swell like the original NZ poster said.
Well my thinking was that at one time the drag washers substrate or core may have been made by bonding multiple layers of gasket paper together, and that perhaps after some time would possibly soak up and expand from oil or grease immersion. Think like water and Masonite board. Not sure if that is possible really.
Secondly, if the substrate or core were made of fiberglass, it isn't as likely that would happen. (unless it were perhaps made of layers of prepreg fiberglass stacked together, in which case it could be less than perfect and susceptible to salt water intrusion, with resultant swelling. maybe that is what happened)
Regarding Cal's grease, sure, but bear in mind that drag grease isn't a cure-all. It isn't wise to depend on it to make shoddy drags great. It may very well help to make great drags stellar.
So concentrate on figuring out what is wrong first, and getting your drags as good as they once were / as good as they can be. THEN consider drag grease.
And about making new ones, well... as said once before, two sheets of laminated 1.27 mm CF from Dawn bonded back-to-back and then left to a waterjet or laser guy would be good, or a few hours of cutting and sanding for an ambitious hobby guy...
.
I'm not sure why Dual would not populate all of the spring slots on the spool. It never made sense to me. You want good even pressure and de-populating the springs did not make absolute sense to me.
Something is making the drags sticky. By the looks of the drag washer, it appears that the drags got good and hot by the sheen surface on the drag washer. Must have been exciting.
Back to the drags. One thing that can make any ungreased drags jumpy is moisture/water. If the drag washers are wet with water, as the fish pulls, the drag fiber washers gets hot, and the water expands in the fibers of the fiber washer making an uneven drag surface, and thereby creating jumpy drags. I have seen this personally when we all ran dry drags and we used to pour water over the reels to cool them down. This gets scary...worse if you are holding the rod when this starts to happen. One factor I like about greased drags is that you eliminate water intrusion in the drag material thus eliminating the expansion of the fiber washer due to moisture, including pouring a bucket of water on the reel to cool it down. Not saying that this will solve the problem, but this is one reason for jumpy drags and how to solve it. By the looks of the picture when you got the reel, it appears that water can get in there rather easily so this is what I would initially suspect is your problem. After greasing your drags, to try it out, I would mount the rod in a rod holder on a boat or car. Attach the line to another car and have the car drive off at 25-35 mph (simulating a marlin running under 25# of drag and see if you still have jumpy drags. Keep in communication to tell the person to stop when the drag starts to become jumpy (or run out of line).
The stainless steel surfaces looks fine. I would clean them up and they should be good to go.
Good luck.
thanks for the advice all.
Locknut yes.
some updates on some other enquiries ive made.
Yesterday I sent a note to Duel italy, they just replied!
"Sir ,
we can send the complete click assembly , price is only 2.00 euro + transport (with FedEx transport is 18.00 euro by mail it is 8.00 euro) ; credit card is accepted.
about the drag : it is not possible to use the new drag system on your old reel it will be necessary to replace the complete spool (price = 190 euro)unfortunately it will be necessary to adapt this new spool to your old reel and for this reason we need your reel back here in italy... then you have to consider transport to Italy and back to Australia.
Regards RC"
The click assembly also failed on the BM run as well. At 2euros, I've ordered 4!
Have also been in contact with a local reel guru, Daniel, son of the late Jack Erskine. he's is still carrying on his fathers business. he gave me few options but says they are a bugger to get the calibration right compared to most other reels... he says his specialty is to get a uniform (linear?) increase of pressure from freespool all the way sunset at 36kg. (80lb) he needs the whole reel for that and its a time consuming job. that would include the carbontex conversion of course.
Also says he can bond two sheets of carbontex together to match the existing thickness, stamp to right diameters, mail them to me, that's a quick fix without sending the whole reel to him , and I end up with new carbontex drag washers. its a bit risky as we don't know if the existing washers are still in spec thickness wise. see photos below, the two CF washers are different thicknesses?
If I sent the reel to Daniel part of the calibration process would be getting the thickness spot on.
Sounds good. Daniel's father was important to me; we shared great thoughts and ideas.
I like the idea of taking care to achieve a linear drag curve too.
Well, there you have a few directions to go. The rest is up to you.
PS: the drag is probably quite linear to begin with. Not sure what difference the disc thickness could make; since they are part of a stack then an average thickness should do?
.
I would go ahead and get the new CF washers made. The rest may just have been due to crud, and salt intrusion. A little shimming may also be in order to account for any appreciable wear. This reel is a workhorse, and the design should actually he able to deal with heat better then most, so Alan's observation that the reel looks to have gotten 'hot' is telling. A good cleaning, and proper lube will likely work wonders. Couldn'the hurt to polish the metal drag washers a bit as well, though if them are flat.. no need to lap, resurface, or replace them. Be carefull testing that beast. 2lbs of drag at 34mph is serious buisness.
Quote from: Mark Gunning on March 17, 2016, 01:45:23 AM
thanks for the advice all.
Locknut yes.
some updates on some other enquiries ive made.
Yesterday I sent a note to Duel italy, they just replied!
"Sir ,
we can send the complete click assembly , price is only 2.00 euro + transport (with FedEx transport is 18.00 euro by mail it is 8.00 euro) ; credit card is accepted.
about the drag : it is not possible to use the new drag system on your old reel it will be necessary to replace the complete spool (price = 190 euro)unfortunately it will be necessary to adapt this new spool to your old reel and for this reason we need your reel back here in italy... then you have to consider transport to Italy and back to Australia.
Regards RC"
The click assembly also failed on the BM run as well. At 2euros, I've ordered 4!
Have also been in contact with a local reel guru, Daniel, son of the late Jack Erskine. he's is still carrying on his fathers business. he gave me few options but says they are a bugger to get the calibration right compared to most other reels... he says his specialty is to get a uniform (linear?) increase of pressure from freespool all the way sunset at 36kg. (80lb) he needs the whole reel for that and its a time consuming job. that would include the carbontex conversion of course.
Also says he can bond two sheets of carbontex together to match the existing thickness, stamp to right diameters, mail them to me, that's a quick fix without sending the whole reel to him , and I end up with new carbontex drag washers. its a bit risky as we don't know if the existing washers are still in spec thickness wise. see photos below, the two CF washers are different thicknesses?
If I sent the reel to Daniel part of the calibration process would be getting the thickness spot on.
Did you ever ask duel if the drag washers are different diameters? It looks like it was meant for both to be of different dimensions, although I'm not too sure. The only reason I would say that is because something that might have gotten swollen from water intrusion wouldn't look so uniform. As a comparison of what I mean, I can soak a piece of particle board without telling you, and you would KNOW it got wet. (the only problem is that with the washer I don't know if the swelling would be significantly noticed or not apparent to the naked eye).
Maybe try to dry the crap of them, clean with carb or brake cleaner ( I've brake cleaned my washers before, but get approval from these other guru's tho lol) grease them and re-install and test like the others have said. Its the easiest route before you go and spend money..
Yeh trying come up with a safe area to do the car thing, two phones on hands free, me in my harness strapped to tree, a mate in his V8 impersonating a Blue Marlin, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?
Yes the reel did get hot on that first Blue Marlin run.
I'm assuming the drag got wet with salt water whilst trolling so ive just given them a quick dip in hot fresh water, there outside now baking dry.
I've been thinking about the different CF washer thicknesses and think I've got it.
They are actually exposed to different friction forces.
The thick washer rubs against two SS drag plates ( one each side), the thin one only rubs one side only as its at the end which is hard against the keyed spring plate if that makes sense. Could this explain the differences and should we consider this when making the new carbontex washers?
Bryan
I just noticed your response to me in another thread;
"Dual reels use weaved carbon fiber drag washers, which is equivalent to Carbontex drag material. All of the Duals I've worked on had slightly different drag assemblies so it's difficult to determine why your drags are sticky. I have to read and look at your pictures on my computer for a better look, and get back to you."
Am I wasting my time and money on new carbontex washers?
I must say I'm looking fwd to eventually having greased washers as it seems they will be less likely to be effected by water. My reels do get very wet trolling in our Sydney slop.
I cannot fully tell if your drags need replacing. But often you can apply drag grease with a tooth brush and scrub in the grease, let sit for a few minutes/hours the wipe off excess and you will normally restore the drag surface.
Before Carbontex, I would try this first maybe drive 5 mph the 10 mphand see how the drags hold on. If it doesn't work I would then change them out.
Update, I put it back together with original fibre washers and SS plates as clean & dry as I could get them.
I didn't try the car test, trouble finding an accomplice, so I've been testing on the real thing.
Yesterdays Blue Marlin only took about 50 metres off before spitting the hooks, but the grabbing drag and bouncing rod tip was back, albeit not so bad as last weeks.
So today I thought ide try the Cals. I brushed it in to the CF washers with a stiff artists brush and massaged it in by hand, wiped off excess.
what a disaster.
Drag pressure has doubled. I pulled it down again and wiped off as much as could, you cant actually see any grease at all now.
At strike drag with NO preset, I cannot pull line off (500lb wind on leader). halfway between free spool and strike it feels about 12Kg. (left the scales on the boat)
At light drag cranking the handle with fixed line it feels very unsmooth. (bumpy?)
where to go now?
Hmmm. I would take a closer look at those drag discs, and the metal washers to ensure everything is perfectly flat. Use a straight edge and back lighting or similar. You may want to consider new drag washers. Spacing, spring placement, areserved also possibilities. Ensure everything has been assembled properly (i.e. the retaining ring, spring config, etc.). You may want to test the subassemblies when you have the reel apart to see if you can figure out why the drag is ramping up quickly, and why it is sticky/jerky.
Idunno. Jack E told me once long ago that they used to have problems with the tabs on the metal washers nibbling away at the edges of the aluminum spool and forming ruts there. Maybe the drive hex too.
Worth a look i guess.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 12:16:17 PM
Idunno. Jack E told me once long ago that they used to have problems with the tabs on the metal washers nibbling away at the edges of the aluminum spool and forming ruts there. Maybe the drive hex too.
Worth a look i guess.
Funny you should mention that. I was just thinking another possibility would be that the drag washers are getting hung up, on the spool, nut, or shaft. The tabs catching at the spool is probably most likely. Testing te function while the headplate is off, and a closer inspection of te spool may help to diagnose the issue (s). You may be able to improve function by debuting with a small file, or very carefully with a Dremel.
John
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 12:16:17 PM
Idunno. Jack E told me once long ago that they used to have problems with the tabs on the metal washers nibbling away at the edges of the aluminum spool and forming ruts there. Maybe the drive hex too.
Worth a look i guess.
The ss spring plate is the only metal plate with tabs. no ruts in the spool from it.
the two SS drag plates are round (without tabs) and lock onto the main shaft via a hex section pinned into the shaft.
Its the CF washers that have the tabs which lock into the spool. JE must have been referring to the SS spring plate.
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
.
Interesting thought, and a distinct possibility here. A warped/bent/marred spool.shaft is also a possibility.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
Err, am I reading you right, I think opposite of what you say.
the shaft does rotate when cranking.
The shaft is stationary when huge Blue marlin is taking line. that when the bearing does nothing.
Just checked the left side shaft bearing, it feels fine, not perfect but more than good enough I think.
with spool removed, there is some side play in the main shaft from the right side main bearing but it too feels very smooth and surely the left main bearing controls the movement when all assembled.
I did look into changing the right side bearing but for life of me cant work out how to remove the hex drive section off the main shaft. its pinned to the shaft one side only so cant drive pin out from other side. pin hole does not go all the way through.. Maybe I get the bearing off the shaft by removing drive gear of other end? hard to say, I didn't actually split the gearbox section, didn't want to go there just yet. ive read its a wet box, filled with oil.
Any way I don't think the bearing is effecting the drag, they all seem very smooth despite the side play... could be wrong though.
If the plates are flat and true, then I would consider disassembly of the headplate so that you can remove the spool shaft. Ensure the right side spool is clean, and free of any burrs, and do the same for the shaft. Sometimes when the reel is underload, the spool shaft will hang up on the spool bearings, or the drag discs will hang up on the spool, or shaft. Did you already replace the spool bearings? The right spool bearing looks to have some corrosion present. I always replace the bearings if there is any felt roughness, sincetc this typically worsens when under load, and they can lead to failure later.
If you get the spool shaft free, you can test the spool/drag subassembly and try to determine what is happening here.
You might be able to figure it out w/of removing it as well.
Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 25, 2016, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
.
Interesting thought, and a distinct possibility here. A warped/bent/marred spool.shaft is also a possibility.
just checked the shaft, not bent.
I put the left side plate back on without the spool, gave it a few cranks, spinning nice and true.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 26, 2016, 01:26:38 AM
If the plates are flat and true, then I would consider disassembly of the headplate so that you can remove the spool shaft. Ensure the right side spool is clean, and free of any burrs, and do the same for the shaft. Sometimes when the reel is underload, the spool shaft will hang up on the spool bearings, or the drag discs will hang up on the spool, or shaft. Did you already replace the spool bearings? The right spool bearing looks to have some corrosion present. I always replace the bearings if there is any felt roughness, sincetc this typically worsens when under load, and they can lead to failure later.
If you get the spool shaft free, you can test the spool/drag subassembly and try to determine what is happening here.
You might be able to figure it out w/of removing it as well.
Just my 2 cents.
have not yet confirmed plates flat true. hard to check them as they are cupped (centre hex section offset from drag surface area)
havnt yet replaced bearings. if they have to come from Italy that's going to be a problem, not easy to deal with.
No corrosion on the bearing you mentioned, right side bearing not in any photos I posted or I've got my L/R mixed up. right to me is the crank side when the reel sits overhead on the rod. left side bearing in side plate all good as well, its full SS.
just disassembled the drag lever section again, there's only one way it can go back together whilst maintaining full lever arc. I'm sure its correct. It works by use of a coarse male/fem thread. the female part can be put in 3 different positions in the right side plate, but only one of them allows full lever movement. just spent the last hour trying all positions, back to where I had it. could always pull apart another reel to check but that's somewhere I don't want to go at this stage.
Question; If I had warped SS drag plates would I see the spool move left/right as I peeled off line?
Quote from: Mark Gunning on March 26, 2016, 01:47:25 AM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 25, 2016, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
.
Interesting thought, and a distinct possibility here. A warped/bent/marred spool.shaft is also a possibility.
just checked the shaft, not bent.
Doesn't it slide freely through the spool bearings (even when a load is applied)?
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 26, 2016, 02:08:13 AM
Quote from: Mark Gunning on March 26, 2016, 01:47:25 AM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 25, 2016, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
Interesting thought, and a distinct possibility here. A warped/bent/marred spool.shaft is also a possibility.
just checked the shaft, not bent.
Doesn't it slide freely through the spool bearings (even when a load is applied)?
you've kinda lost me here, do mean when im sliding the spool onto the shaft?
Yes. The spool moves in relation to the shaft and drag components as the drag is increased/applied. Sometimes it will get hung up on the spool shaft bearings or the drag components will stick on it. Basically you just want to check to make sure none of the parts have any burrs where they may hang up on, or not move smoothly.
Hope this makes sense?
John
Quote from: Mark Gunning on March 26, 2016, 12:19:38 AM
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 25, 2016, 11:18:27 PM
Yes, i presume he meant washers, plural, as in several reels, alternatively the hex drive portion being gouged be the round stainless washers.
.Edit, in afterthought: any chance this could be caused by a faulty left spool bearing? The thinking being that since this is a live axle design, the spool bearing needn't rotate upon the shaft when retrieving. You wouldn't notice if it was frozen. Only on the outgoing direction does this bearing actually need to move, and that is when the problem shows itself.
Err, am I reading you right, I think opposite of what you say.
the shaft does rotate when cranking.
The shaft is stationary when huge Blue marlin is taking line. that when the bearing does nothing.
Just checked the left side shaft bearing, it feels fine, not perfect but more than good enough I think.
with spool removed, there is some side play in the main shaft from the right side main bearing but it too feels very smooth and surely the left main bearing controls the movement when all assembled.
I did look into changing the right side bearing but for life of me cant work out how to remove the hex drive section off the main shaft. its pinned to the shaft one side only so cant drive pin out from other side. pin hole does not go all the way through.. Maybe I get the bearing off the shaft by removing drive gear of other end? hard to say, I didn't actually split the gearbox section, didn't want to go there just yet. ive read its a wet box, filled with oil.
Any way I don't think the bearing is effecting the drag, they all seem very smooth despite the side play... could be wrong though.
Im a goose, just realised what your saying here. I was thinking about left & right side plate bearings not spool bearings. ::)
both left & right spool bearings feel free & smooth.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 26, 2016, 02:40:40 AM
Yes. The spool moves in relation to the shaft and drag components as the drag is increased/applied. Sometimes it will get hung up on the spool shaft bearings or the drag components will stick on it. Basically you just want to check to make sure none of the parts have any burrs where they may hang up on, or not move smoothly.
Hope this makes sense?
John
seems smooth to slide onto shaft, cant find any burrs except sharp edges where the hex was stamped into the SS washers. just smoothing them out now.
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now smooth.
well on closer inspection I should say smoother..
Looks good to me in the photos you provided. Once you are sure sll bearings are good, and there are no burrs on any of the moving parts, and that there are no hogh spots, in the drag washers, and no warping of tye netal drag washers..
I would reassemble the spool and drag components, install it on the headplate, and use the tailplate bearing to apply pressure, and test the drag function. Also test to see if the spool, and shaft are warped at all. Basically test the subassemblies, until you can determine where the problem is.
This part is sometimes easier if you have te shaft in hand, but you can do it against the headplate too.
John
Wow, you guys have been very busy while i was asleep.
Well, it seems that you both have considered many if not all possibilities; i don't have anything to add other than that i recall hearing of similar problems as early as twenty years ago, as found in old communiques with Duel from that time, but that is irrelevant since there was no solution given there either.
Stick with it, Mark. You are obviously a competent guy. You'll figure it out. Like John was indicating, the process of elimination may be tedious but effective.
.
Robert I'm concerned the elim process may take weeks as I wait for parts to arrive from Italy, only to find that wasn't the problem.
Maybe I could source bearings local, for instance left side plate bearing is a 61900HZ. surely my local bearing supplier would have them? ditto rest of bearings.
Im using these reels at least once a week. BM run ends very soon.
Besides the drag part of the reel, they seem to have an extreme high level of precise engineering and finish. silky smooth to use and very pretty.
Was pulling some line off a couple of hrs ago, seemed smother and the roughness when cranking had gone. seems to change each time I pull it apart.
Before I go much further im gonna test it as is, similar to the car method.
in Botany bay Ill thro a bucket overboard or maybe a small drogue, let it pull some line off at maybe 5 to 10 knts.
I used to do same to wake the crew up. Ive seen the angler fight the bucket all the way to the boat before he wakes up to whats goin on. ;D
PS, just gooled that bearing #, zero results.
You should be able to source bearings here, just get measurements and check boca, or find a match to another reel model (we have a partial list here on the forum ).
619 are usually bearings of a standard metric size (also known as 696) 6x15x5mm. Boca and most bearing companies will stock them.
Being an Italian reel (ie European) it is likely all the bearings are metric not imperial.
Yes definitely metric. 619 also known as 696, good to know.
Don't know Boca, it s a USA bearing company?
Can source bearings from this website, good to know.
Ill pull one reel all way down and get a list of all bearing numbers, ill check local suppliers first (CBC Bearings AU).
11pm goodnight.
Mark.