Picked up my largest reel to date, an immediate post-war Senator 9/0 from the big auction site in the cloud.... it arrived with a broken torpedo handle; I've started another thread and located a replacement; it looked like it was going to clean up really nicely
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_7997.NEF_zpsiye0zian.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_7997.NEF_zpsiye0zian.jpg.html)
I thought the spool looked a little different; I assumed that this spool had been cared for differently in the past than had the others I had worked on.... here's how it started out
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8003_zpstleasmdc.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8003_zpstleasmdc.jpg.html)
I did the usual clean-up and it turned out OK, but the spool isn't shining up like I expected it would; I think it's nickel-plated and not chrome. And I'm quite certain this arbor has never seen chrome. Here are a few views;
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8038_zpsgpkrynr2.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8038_zpsgpkrynr2.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8035.NEF_zpspctksrvk.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8035.NEF_zpspctksrvk.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8040_zpsjluncrfv.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8040_zpsjluncrfv.jpg.html)
So my question in its simplest form is, did Penn put nickel-plated spools on the early post-war 9/0's? Because if they did not I don't know what I've got here.... I'll post up more pics when I get a decent handle to put on this.
Thanks.
Sid
Sal,
You will note that the handle I sent you has some hairline cracks in it as well. The resin from this timeframe mat have been a bit more brittle. Does the spool arbor have a drilled hole, or a post? I believe the postwar, 9/0 3 piece spools went from a drilled, to a narrow spindle posted, then a wider spindle posted. The harness lugs also changed, from thin D shaped holes to thicker O shaped holes during this timeframe. The earlier Senators had more durable plating due to German silver being used as a base metal, while the later ones saw an improvement in plating technique.. so there was a period where the plating was not as good. I am shooting from the hip on this stuff and may be a bit off. Ted, Ray, or Mike may be able to fill in the blanks here. The reel appears to be correct to me, and the handle I sent you should be a good match. A look inside may also help to narrow the production era a bit. Does your reel have the externally accessable gears, and is the maingear steel, and off the taller straight-cut variety? When disassembling, be careful of the fragile undersleave leather washer, and try not to damage any of te screw heads. Hope I didn'the muddy the waters.
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18647
Here is some talk about the same spools on ORCA only a month ago
Thanks, Ray. I've messaged Brian and asked him to stop by.
Sid
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
The resin from this timeframe mat have been a bit more brittle. Does the spool arbor have a drilled hole, or a post?
Post
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
The harness lugs also changed, from thin D shaped holes to thicker O shaped holes during this timeframe.
This one has the thicker, O-shaped...
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
A look inside may also help to narrow the production era a bit. Does your reel have the externally accessable gears, and is the maingear steel, and off the taller straight-cut variety? When disassembling, be careful of the fragile undersleave leather washer, and try not to damage any of te screw heads.
Yes, externally-accessible gears, steel main gear with the 3-stack of asbestos ~3mm-thick drag washers. There was no under gear washer (maybe someone already killed it?). I've never damaged a screw head in my life :P I have quite a variety of screwdriver heads of the Winchester variety, and per ORCA protocol I let some penetrating oil soak on each screw thread for a few hours before loosening. Another thing I learned in the ORCA book is to loosen all the screw heads first before you remove any screws, lest somehow the plate be damaged by being too loose when trying to remove a stubborn screw. I guess I can imagine that actually happening....
Looking forward to seeing what Brian has to say about these spools. It appears there are a few around.
Sid
Another interesting characteristic of this spool is that one of the flanges is loose. It rotates in place, but rubs on the spindle. I think it's a spool that would blow up the next time mono was wound on it with any tension. I'm looking for a front rod harness, I'm going to try to get some of the staining out of the surface of the spool (another ORCA trick, I'll let you know if it works). Wish me luck.
Sid
Sid, your spool simply looks like a base metal, non-plated spool. The flanges are German Silver and the spindle is brass. It is not the norm; but, it is what it is.
Flanges on the old multi-piece spool loosened up sometimes, that is why Penn eventually upgraded all Senators to one piece spools by the late 1950's. The three piece spools were OK for the smaller reels; but, the stresses of big game fish are very different.
Thanks, Mike. I guess if this is German Silver it needs some work; all the German silver I've seen (in pictures) has a gloss that rivals that of chrome plate. This is inferior to that. But if it's not plated I could recondition the spool with some wet-sanding to bring out the luster in the flanges.... but that would require that I call the reel reconditioned; not sure I want to do that yet. It actually looks OK as is, I just want to get the stains off the surface of the flanges.
Sid
Sid, my advice is get some era correct linen line and put some on the reel. No need to fill it, but just enough to show it's been put to use. I have a couple I display that way and it makes em look more like a reel from back in the days !!
Ted
Sheesh, I now understand what all the fuss is about German silver. The folks on ORCA, primarily a guy named m3040c that looks a lot like Mike C ::) talked me into working on the spool some more. I'm glad they did. It was a little pitted, so I had to start with wet 320 grit -> 400 ->1000 ->1500 ->2000 by the time I got to the end I was pretty happy. I might go back at it in a few days, it's still just a little bit pitted in a few places, but it's almost unnoticeable. This is maybe one of those situations where better is the enemy of good. I can't see the pitting I'm talking about in the photos.
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8066.NEF_zpsdkhdch7b.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8066.NEF_zpsdkhdch7b.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8058.NEF_zpsjxbiu1ot.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8058.NEF_zpsjxbiu1ot.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8053_zpsjw0kt6pd.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/DSC_8053_zpsjw0kt6pd.jpg.html)
There is a word that comes to mind now when I think of German silver - it is suhhhhhhhweeeeeeeet! Too bad they didn't make all reels with this pot metal. Who would have thought that an alloy of roughly 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc could look so much like silver?
Sid
Yeah, I was hoping you would do that with the 9/0.
I seem to recall Mike, Ray, and Ted doing similar -- and they turned out like a museum piece.
Great work.
Best,
Fred
Wow Sid. That is incredible.
Beautiful Job Sid, there is nothing that polishes up like German Silver.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Edward%20Vom%20Hofe/Francoiss%20Zwarg%209-O%20Serial%20Number%20J115_zpslg1g1igg.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Edward%20Vom%20Hofe/Francois%20Zwarg%209-O%20view%202_zpsr1ephdhm.jpg)
Penn Chronology aka Mike C. aka m3040c Otto Zwarg, Maximo, 9/0
Stunning work Sid. Beautiful result.
Would love to do the same to an old classic one day. But no way the missus would let me have it on display in the house.
Stunning Work Sid. :o
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
Sal,
You will note that the handle I sent you has some hairline cracks in it as well.
John, got your handle, thanks, it's an exact match. I just want to be clear that when I received the reel the handle knob was in pieces. There are a few pics after I attempted an epoxy repair, that really didn't turn out too poorly, but I don't trust it to stay together. Seems the plastic may have shrunk a little over the years and tightened up around the post; now it doesn't fit too well.
Sid
You did a great job Sid, but I guess you don't need me to tell you that.
Joe
Mine should come today Sid. It will clean up nicely. I polished just a little on the back to see if there were any numbers and it cleaned right up.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/ddyer3/IMG_34351_zpswriylrrn.jpg) (http://s1156.photobucket.com/user/ddyer3/media/IMG_34351_zpswriylrrn.jpg.html)
Quote from: sdlehr on April 02, 2016, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 27, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
Sal,
You will note that the handle I sent you has some hairline cracks in it as well.
John, got your handle, thanks, it's and exact match. I just want to be clear that when I received the reel the handle knob was in pieces. There are a few pics after I attempted an epoxy repair, that really didn't turn out too poorly, but I don't trust it to stay together. Seems the plastic may have shrunk a little over the years and tightened up around the post; now it doesn't fit too well.
Sid
Yup! I'm with you on that, the knob has shrunk over the years.
Here is another example, this is also an old one, still intact though:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160402_100104.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160402_100104.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160402_100035.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160402_100035.jpg.html)
Sal
Incredible job, so pretty.
mark
Quote from: Rothmar2 on March 31, 2016, 05:50:36 PM
Stunning work Sid. Beautiful result.
Would love to do the same to an old classic one day. But no way the missus would let me have it on display in the house.
I tried to display this on the bookshelf in the family room. It lasted a few hours. It's back up in my man cave again. Some people just don't appreciate beauty like we do....
I just got delivery of a 1st Gen 115 (thank you Oceanreels) with the intention of putting this spool on it; but, alas, this spool has a post, only a drilled arbor would be correct for the 1936-37 Senator (someone please correct me if that is wrong). I really wanted to see that spool on the 1st gen reel.... :(
Incidentally, this was the first model Senator released in '36, the only new reel of that year, and since it was the only Senator at the time it wasn't labelled as a 9/0 - that would come later. There also was no need for the model number to be on the logo on the headplate, so it just says "Senator" (see pic). A few years later the 12/0 would be released and given the model number 116. Then they came out with the 10/0 in-between size without a number between 115 and 116, so they picked 116A instead of 115A. (Footnote, Caccioppo, Michael, 2015 ;D) Kind of an odd selection because the 116A is smaller than the 116. Had Otto asked me I would have voted for 115A, or 115 1/2, or something like that. But he didn't ask.
I'm thinking of doing a post comparing the anatomy of the two Senator versions. There are obvious head plate differences, but also differences in drag (externally accessible in 2nd Gen), gears (older gears are steel, newer are brass, but there are also other interesting differences that are a little more subtle.
Sid
Quote from: Shark Hunter on April 02, 2016, 02:01:21 PM
Mine should come today Sid. It will clean up nicely. I polished just a little on the back to see if there were any numbers and it cleaned right up.
Thanks, Daron. I'm about to finish up work and head home. Hopefully it will be waiting for me. Hey, how's the finger? I was using a knife to start the pry on a trim ring from a head plate last night and thought of you :)
Sid
Its doing fine Sid. I actually planned on doing oil changes on my two trucks today, but the wind is blowing here at 50 mph.
I did a total rebuild on a 650ss after re applying super glue to the gash on my thumb.
That was the third application and probably the last.
I can say I'll never try to separate plates like that again.
If that knife would have been sharp, it would have been much worse.
It was the downward pressure with the 500 plate slipping to the side that caused the cut.
I don't want to sound like a wuss, but that is the worst cut I have ever had to my hands.
It will leave a nice scar to remind me not to do that again.
Glad the thumb is on the mend. If we were closer I could have rebuilt it with 5-minute epoxy ;D
The handle arrived on Saturday. Thanks. I haven't polished it up yet, but it will polish up really nicely.
Sid
Beautiful reel..!!
Daron I just stuck a hole in the center of my palm with a skinny screwdriver prying a plate of a 6/0. I bleed like crazy taking Plavix. A drop of super glue stopped it and I went on.
Keith
STOP PRYING ! :o
Put the side plate in a cereal bowl of hot water , Then put the side plate only in the freezer. Only takes a few minutes . Repeat a couple of times and after the hot dip and the ring expanded the plate should come off without putting yourself in danger.
Just did a 1933 trim ring that did not want to move.
Sid,
That's a shame it came apart in transit. It had a few hairline cracks visable, but was wolly intact when it was packaged. Not sure if it's worth dealing with USPS for an insurance claim on a $10 part though.
John, the handle you sent is fine and intact. The picture of the broken handle is the one that came with the reel. I only posted it to show you and Daron that I really did need a new handle, that my torpedo grip was smashed to smithereens, it wasn't just cracked. I could have/would have lived with it cracked. I epoxied it together and it showed up that way in a few of the photos I posted... I was afraid you would look at the pic with the epoxied grip, not see that I had repaired it, and think I had been untruthful about needing a new handle.
Sid
Whew...
Here I was thinking I should have triple bubble wrapped it or something. Funny that your pic for clarification ended up confusing me :)
No worries my friend. All is fine.
Sid