I recently bought some old reels with line on the spools and I'm not sure if it is linen or newer braid. How can I tell the difference between linen and braid? If I want to display a reel with linen line on the spool how would I clean the line?
George
George,
I'm not sure how to tell you about the difference between linen and the newer stuff... I just kinda go by stiffness, look, coating or no coating on line, and age of the reel- (which isn't always the best way).
I can tell you the best/ only way I would put line back on is a long bath with diluted Salt-Away, rinse thoroughly with warm water, and put back on while the line is still a little damp otherwise it takes the shape of whatever bottle/container you use to dry the line and makes spooling a bit more difficult.
I like the look of the line back on a vintage reel if it's linen as well. ;)
Have fun,
Dom
Pre-war, before synthetic material was invented, all fishing line was made of natural fiber. The popular options were linen, silk, and long staple cotton. The quickest way to differentiate natural fiber from synthetic fiber is to burn the end. Natural fibers burn clean and the ash falls away. When burned, synthetic fibers stink and melt into a glob.
The fibers could be turned into fishing line by either braiding or twisting. Braiding made it look like the braid we know today. Twisting made it look like miniature rope or seine twine.
Silk was almost always braided. Linen and cotton was almost always twisted. This is due to inherent differences in the length and thickness of the various fibers. There was also differences in how the line was laid. "Hard laid" means the fibers were braided or twisted together very tightly. Soft laid means they were not so tight. Soft laid rope or string is preferred for some applications but hard laid is better for fishing line.
Silk was almost always died. Black and dark green were popular colors but there were many others. Cotton and linen was either died or left the natural color.
An advancement was when they learned to "waterproof" natural fiber fishing line. Waterproofing made the line behave more consistently and it did not get as heavy when wet. I'm still researching this and am not sure if the waterproofing was natural resins and oils, or waxes, or something else. I do know that the waterproofing did not work very well and wore off quickly.
The most expensive fishing lines were waterproofed hard laid braided silk. The least expensive were soft laid twisted cotton. The most popular was twisted linen. Hard laid twisted linen is called Cuttyhunk. Cuttyhunk is not a brand name, it is a process.
Line size was originally based on thread count. Linen and cotton had sort of a standard thread size. Silk had much finer thread and when silk casting lines came out the pound test designations started to appear.
For Cuttyhunk, two to many threads were twisted into a "ply" and three plys were twisted into the finished line. Two and four ply line was available, but three ply was the most common. If each ply had two treads and the finished line had three plys then there were a total of six threads. Sometimes it was called six thread line and sometimes just number six line. If each ply had three threads, then there were nine threads total. If four threads in a ply then there were twelve total. So, the line sizes increased in increments of three.
If the thread and ply thing does not make sense at first then read or watch video about rope making. Twisted or Cuttyhunk fishing line is made the same way as rope and look like miniature rope.
As a side note, modern nylon seine twine of a certain diameter is designated by a size number that corresponds to the diameter of natural fiber twine of that thread count.
The strength of the natural fiber fishing line depended on the strength of the threads. The strength of the threads depended on the length of the individual fibers making up the thread and the plant it was derived from. The flax plant from Ireland made very long fibers that were turned into high quality linen thread with a breaking strength of about three pounds. Long staple cotton from the Carolinas made fibers that were longer than regular cotton but shorter than flax fiers. Long staple cotton thread had a breaking strength of about two pounds.
So, a nine thread Cuttyhunk line had a breaking strength of about 27 pounds (9 thread x 3 lb). A 36 thread Cuttyhunk line had a breaking strength approaching 108 pounds although the conversion from thread count to breaking strength became less reliable as line size increased.
As a side note, a 36 thread rod is so named because it has a stiffness and backbone that is appropriate for using with a 36 thread Cuttyhunk line. Rod blanks were sold by thread count up into the 1970's, well after they stopped sizing the line itself by thread count.
Finally, be careful when you see the word "linen". Lined is supposed to be thread and fabric made from the flax plant. After synthetic fibers were invented marketing people came up with "synthetic linen" which is supposed to wick moisture like natural linen. The real thing will be called flax linen or Irish linen.
And finally, finally, if anyone has some vintage line they want to sell then please let me know. I'm obsessed and have actually bought old reels just to get the line from them. I haven't had to make my own line yet, but that may be coming.
-steve
Great information thanks for posting that.
One thing to remember, not all "braid" is created equal. You are more apt to run across Dacron line than linen, and Dacron isn't the same as, nor as desirable a the "newer" Spectra. While Dacron has it's uses, it's larger in diameter than Spectra and will deteriorate in sunlight where Spectra won't. Dacron will also retain salt and water and can be prone to rot and mildew.
Thank you all for the useful info.
George
Steve, sounds like you swallowed the book on old fishing line. Thanks for that detailed summarization.
Dom
A side note, cleaning and drying were order of the day. That was done because of rotting. I just got rid of my line dryer about a year ago.
You can tell the difference between natural line (cotton, linen ) and synthetic line (spectra, nylon, dacron) synthetic when you put a match to it wiil have a bead where the line burnt and natural line will not bead but have an ash as residue.
Joel8080
I want to put together a Depression Era baitcasting outfit to fish with. Getting the reel is easy.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=18895.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=18895.0)
The Montgomery Ward catalogs indicate that baitcasting rods of the time were split bamboo, whole bamboo or steel. These are more difficult to find but possible. Most split bamboo rods were stored in conditions that were either too dry making them brittle, or too wet making them rotten.
Finding period appropriate fishing line that is still usable is really hard. It's readily available at auction for not much money but most of it has been attacked by microbes and has no strength left. I finally found one piece of six thread Cuttyhunk that is not rotten, but it is only 25 yards long. At least 30 yards are needed to cast and 80 yards to fill the spool.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on August 15, 2016, 08:09:50 PM
Finding period appropriate fishing line that is still usable is really hard.
Yep...all the linen line I have on display reels breaks very easy. I put together a few vintage combos to fish but had to use dacron on them. Only the mono leaders show in the pic...dacron is jet black. The bottom rod is a steel True Temper.
On my some of my old reels I removed the line by winding it on a Penn 9/0 for storage. It's pretty much full now, but I'll break out the matches to determine what is natural fiber. Then I'll clean it and display on some of my vintage reels.
Thank You,
George
Wow, George .... a 9/0 full of potential treasure.
Mo, you have nice stuff. Here's my steel rod. I think my late father-in-law picked it up at the local swap meet decades ago. The kids used it for a make-believe fencing sword, then pulled off the tip top to make a frog gig. The butt corroded away while my wife was using it for a tomato stake. Now it's going to be a fishing rod again.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC11.jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC17.jpg)
But, I don't think this is the same sort of steel rod they had in the 1930's. I have never held one, but in the pictures and catalogs the steel blank is always 1/2 inch square stock where it attaches to the handle and tapers from there. They are said to be very heavy too and suffer from corrosion problems.
I'm guessing my steel rod is from the late 1940's or possibly the early 1950's. To look at and waggle it you would think it was an automobile antenna with a handle and guides. It is a lot of fun to cast though.
From the turn of the century through at least the 1930's they made rods from a section of whole cane and a turned hardwood handle. I don't have a lathe and just put a deckhand handle on a 5'6" cane pole. The cord is stabilized with home made rock rosin varnish.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC16.jpg)
Since making do with what you have and not spending any money was common and honorable during the Great Depression, I'm going to pretend that the cane rod is period appropriate.
The reel has 18# braided nylon squidding line on it right now while I look for more period appropriate line.
Here is the reel on a 9' cane rod (for fishing from a canoe) with a top shot of genuine six thread Cuttyhunk. It's wet which darkens the color.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC15.jpg)
-steve
Quote from: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 05:13:08 AM
On my some of my old reels I removed the line by winding it on a Penn 9/0 for storage. It's pretty much full now, but I'll break out the matches to determine what is natural fiber. Then I'll clean it and display on some of my vintage reels.
That's too cool George! I store "period correct" line on a few big reels too...but a 9/0 would be perfect!
Quote from: oc1 on August 16, 2016, 10:02:01 AM
Here's my steel rod. I think my late father-in-law picked it up at the local swap meet decades ago. The kids used it for a make-believe fencing sword, then pulled off the tip top to make a frog gig. The butt corroded away while my wife was using it for a tomato stake. Now it's going to be a fishing rod again.
Mine looked much like yours Steve when I started on it. A mouse had chewed a hole in the cork...there's a wood putty patch on it that you can't see in the pic. I love the old glass agate guides on these steel rods...does yours have them?
Steve, I like the way you repaired those rod handles. I will have to do that someday, rather than throwing them away.
I'm not lucky enough to have a 9/0 full of potential treasure. The braid that tops off the spool is definitely newer synthetic braid. I'll report back with what I find under there.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010710_zpsatkkfy0a.jpg)
Found a few old metal baitcaster rods in the rod rack.
Bristol, True-Temper, JC Higgins, and a couple of others.
One actually has a square blank.
If you were closer, Steve -- you could just have one of these.
I might try to restore and match up these old metal rods with the period appropriate reels and vintage line.
Might make a nice display.
Best,
Fred
Mo, mine has steel guides. They are wrapped on the rod with what looks like copper wire and then it is plated with something. Mine does not have a brand name anywhere. The fact that your rods have agate guides is a clue about their age. I'm not sure what that clue means right now, but its a clue nonetheless. As beautiful as they were, a lot of fishermen hated agate guides because they were so fragile and prone to cracking. Everyone was glad to see metal guide rings with the hardness of agate come along.
George, that looks like Gudebrod Dacron on the top. I think Dacron line came out a year before nylon. You must know that dacron is a real pleasure to fish with because it does not stretch. You get excellent sensitivity and firm hook sets. But, dacron has no abrasion resistance so you have to keep it away from structure and the bottom. Braided nylon stretches a lot but it's very durable.
Great collection there Fred. Is that the one with the square blank on top? I suspect the rods became thinner as the manufacturers found better alloys and tempering methods. That one on the bottom with the extra deep reel seat is an odd bird. I wonder if it was made for a particular type or style of reel.
-steve
Sorry, I'm still learning and told a lie above.. Nylon line preceded Dacron by eight to ten years.
I read somewhere that nylon fishing line was introduced just after the Secnd World War. But, information from DuPont and the Ashaway Line and Twine Manufacturing Company says braided nylon fishing line was actually made in the early 1940's. By 1942 nylon braid was an important part of the Ashaway business. Ashaway was, an still is, an early-adopter of new technology, but there were several other forces at work. For one, DuPont was anxious to have their new invention, nylon, made into popular consumer products. Aside for the direct economic benefits, DuPont was in a campaign to change their image. Until that time, they were known primarily for having made a lot of money producing weapons grade TNT during the First World War. They wanted to shed that image and become known for making "better living through chemistry".
International diplomacy also played a role in fishing line development. Beginning about 1937 there was a grass-roots campaign in the U.S. to boycott Japanese goods. I think it started in Seattle and spread east. The intent was to financially hurt Japan in order to get them to cease their incursions into China as part of the Second Sino-Japanese War. These incursions and war were eventually melded into the Second World War. There was a lot of debate about the boycott of Japanese goods in Washington D.C. The federal consensus was that it would be counter productive. If the U.S. officially embargoed Japanese goods, the Japanese would counter by refusing to buy U.S. oil, steel, cotton and munitions (yes, munitions!). There would be a net loss of jobs and economic harm. Remember, we were in the Great Depression when jobs and economic growth were paramount. So, the federal government did not proceed with an embargo but the grass-roots populist boycott continued. There was nothing illegal about buying Japanese goods, but it was becoming socially unacceptable. Some historians blame this early anti-Japan sentiment for fostering an unhealthy prejudice against Japanese Americans. The harsh treatment of Japanese Americans after the bombing of Pearl Harbor may have been due, in part, to the grass roots boycott of Japanese goods in the late 1930's.
Anyway, one of the Japanese goods that was boycotted was silk. Silk was the single most important commodity that the U.S. imported from Japan. The finest baitcasting line was made of silk but now it was becoming politically incorrect to use. Serious baitcasters did not want to use the coarse linen Cuttyhunk popular for trolling and bottom fishing. The braided silk line was more expensive, but it cast better because it had a smoother finish.
There were many U.S. manufacturers of braided silk fishing line that relied on raw silk from Japan. All of a sudden the fishing line companies found themselves trying to market a politically incorrect product. They tried to dodge it by highlighting the fact that the processing of raw silk and braiding it into fishing line was done in the U.S. and highlighted the term "American Finish" on their silk lines. When DuPont introduced nylon fiber, Ashaway, and then others, jumped on it for producing braided line. For fishing line, nylon is superior to silk in every respect. It is lighter, stronger, more durable, not subject to rotting, AND politically correct. It's sort of like marketing fair-trade coffee or conflict-free diamonds today.
What does fishing line have in common with ladies stocking? There was a time when ladies stocking were all made of silk. When the silk boycott began, rayon stocking were introduced. Rayon is not a synthetic fiber because it is made of wood pulp like celluloid plastic. But, rayon has no stretch so it made baggy stockings. When DuPont began touting nylon the ladies stockings manufacturers jumped on it just like the line manufacturers did and nylon stockings became the standard.
This is braided silk. I don't know how old it is but the graphics and font are reminiscent of the mid-1920's. It is unused on joined wooden spools. The label says 25# test but it now breaks about 5 or 6 pounds because of microbe attack.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC25.jpg)
This is braided nylon. I think it is from 1941 or 1942. It is unused on joined wooden spools in a fancy box. The label says 15# test and it now breaks at about 13 or 14 pounds. I hate to ruin the modest collector value but will probably fish with it.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC26.jpg)
-steve
Quote from: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 04:28:50 PM
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010710_zpsatkkfy0a.jpg)
That looks like Dacron. Its was commonly used for trolling as it floats and when trolling a plunger, diver, skipper,... for marlin, mahi mahi, wahoo,..., it was the line of choice to be topped by X amount of leader to the lure.
Toss a spool of it into the washing machine with the laundry. ;D
Hi Joe --
On linen line --
Soak it in a dishpan of warmer or hot water -- with a couple teaspoons of Dawn dishwashing soap -- for a couple of hours -- make sure it is about a 12" loose loop -- and take some time so it does not get tangled.
Run the line through an old terry washcloth to remove the initial soap and staining.
Make another loose loop, and if still dirty drop it into another dishpan of hot water with a couple tablespoons of OxiClean (your wife has this) -- let soak for another couple of hours.
This is as good as you are going to get it without using bleach -- which is not good for the line.
As you take it out of the dishpan -- put it into another dishpan of just straight, warm water -- let soak for maybe 30 minutes -- then as you remove it, run the line through a paper towel in your hand to get the initial water off.
Loop it between a couple of posts, or something -- out in the sun.
When completely dry -- you are done -- store or respool.
There are a few expensive things the fly fishers use to maintain their line -- but this works just fine for me.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: oc1 on August 19, 2016, 01:05:28 PM
...I read somewhere that nylon fishing line was introduced just after the Secnd World War...
I think that's right for mono.
Mike
Mike, you are probably right about the mono. Mono is made of nylon too. I read something that made me think the first nylon line was monofilament, but it was so stiff that it was unusable so they braided it.
Speaking of stiff mono, there was the whole issue of leader material before the introduction of synthetics. From what I can tell, the choices were monel wire and cat gut. Fishing leader material sounded like a good use for cats (just kidding Fred) but cat gut was actually made from silkworm pupae. So, gut leader material suffered the same availability problems as silk line.
Gut leader was a pain to use. It was much stronger when wet and needed to be stored wet while the line needed to be stored dry. Gut leader was not very uniform and available only in small sizes. If you needed a thicker or stiffer leader you would twist two strands of gut together.
Fly fishers used gut for stealth and to help make the fly turn over in the cast. I don't know if baitcasters even used a leader. Seems like this sort of information should be available but I can't find it.
There is a coil of gut leader in the top right of this photo. It has held up remarkably well and is still strong. The hanks of green cuttyhunk, on the other hand, are rotted junk.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SC27.jpg)
-steve