I am cleaning up and upgrading the drag. New SS gear sleeve install was a breeze, have SS dog, and resembled.
I was cautious about the my drag install (from Motive Fabrication). I reviewed some of the previous posts. I don't feel I did it right and my drag doesn't seem to tighten enough.
See pics for review. The top washer is the thicker one.
Any help would be awesome!
Either the adapter is not all the way down or upside down. Drag stack looks to low. By the way your eccentric lever is on backwards. Rudy
Oops. Thanks for that, was a long day.
The upgraded drag insert - I will have to review which way this goes in.
Your insert is in upside down. The ears on the outside are cut off at the bottom, to account for the slots in the gear not going all the way to the bottom.
The insert should sit flush with the top of the gear, or below. The thick drag washer should stick up above the insert when all the washers are assembled.
Quote from: RowdyW on September 17, 2016, 09:09:13 PM
By the way your eccentric lever is on backwards.
If you're careful, there is a way you can flip the eccentric lever without removing the spring or sideplate.
First, slightly loosen the nut--just a hair but not completely.
Next, gently slide the lever to about half its normal arc, (roughly the 12:00 position relative to the sideplate).
There is a spot here where the eccentric will stay put, rather than flip to one side or the other.
Hold the lever in this position and remove the locknut, then flip the lever around and re-tighten.
You know, that eccentric lever would be so much easier to use if it was backwards. That would work as you have it, but eventually the plate will wear out at the notched area for the spring. I wouldn't think there would be a problem having it backwards on an aluminum plate.
Maybe Adam could make us one in stainless steel, shaped as a "T" on top, that would be awesome. You could then flip it any way you like :).
Updated pics, drag still isn't getting very tight. I did have the insert in backwards before, now it fits right down into.
I'm trying to avoid re-assembling, but that shouldn't be a problem if I have to.
Any thoughts?
Looks OK to me. What's the problem now, and what are you putting on the stack next? That last, thick washer isn't contacting the insert, right?
Sid
It looks like you might need one more steel washer on top of the stack that's small enough to fit inside the insert. If you are using a larger washer it is probably hitting the top of the insert or main gear, or both. Rudy
Your Stack still doesn't look tall enough to me. Here is how I set mine up. It has very slight drag with the star backed all the way off.
Looks like you need another thick washer or a spacing sleeve on top.
That is correct Daron, but might still cause problems. I do not have any of Adam's kits for the 10/0 and up, I just don't believe there is a need for those, but I do have many of his kits from the 9/0 and smaller.
These larger senators come with a heavy tension spring, I do not see any on your reels or Adam's kits.
When applying that much drag pressure, there is a chance the star will back itself out without it.
There is a possibility to instal the one of the original, but it needs to be at least 3/16" above the insert, or shaved to the same size as the washers in the insert....Just a thought.
None of the original drag components are used with the insert except for the gear.
I see what you are saying about the star backing off, but I encountered nothing like that during my testing.
The drag on the insert is different than the stock stack. Mine has slight drag with the star backed fully off.
Within a half turn, you will have stock output. That is all I plan on using.
Maybe one of these days, I will catch something to really test the insert kit.
I know they are in the hands of other Shark Fishermen and I haven't heard of any complaints.
Correct. I used a complete kit from Adam for the 12/0 insert, all old aren't used.
I am going to double check if I somehow did not put the thicker washer on the top, but it still wouldn't be this low. I did have a thick washer, don't think I lost anything in the process.
I managed to get this far, I'll figure it out. I was shooting for a Sunday fishing trip with it, but didn't finish in time, for next weekend now.
Thanks,
Wade
I have always had to add extra washers on top with most all of the drag insert kits. Even a Delrin washer will help take up space.
I'm sure if you asked some would be sent to you.
The only thing I can think of is that I installed a newer version bearing cap on non handle side. I took it off a 2015 12/0 model. Would that have shifted things away from the handle side?
Interesting in that I would have to add more to the stack ..assumed the kit was all that I needed.
There are differences in the steel and bronze gears. I use steel whenever possible. It just seems to work out better for me.
Send Adam a pm. I'm sure he will hook you up. I will see what I have.
Quote from: wsenti on September 19, 2016, 04:57:23 PM
The only thing I can think of is that I installed a newer version bearing cap on non handle side. I took it off a 2015 12/0 model. Would that have shifted things away from the handle side?
Nope, the bearing cap could possibly move the spool over, and that might move the pinion over, but that wouldn't affect the main gear or sleeve (or drag washers); the pinion normally moves up and down engaged to the main gear when you shift in and out of free spool.
Sid
Quote from: wsenti on September 19, 2016, 04:57:23 PM
Interesting in that I would have to add more to the stack ..assumed the kit was all that I needed.
It looks like you need an extra thin washer, Ill send one out to you tomorrow.
Ive noticed some kits needing an extra metal washer for a spacer. It seems theres some variation in the thickness and compressability of the carbon fiber washers from one sheet to the next. Ideally, the last carbon fiber washer should come up to the top of the insert when assembled.
I just checked another 12/0 kit that I had, and this one will need an extra thin washer. See the attached pics of before and after adding an extra thin washer.
A man that stands behind his work. ;)
You will be very happy with the end results Wade.
Adam is one of the best!
What are you guys doing about the tension spring? All Penn reels come with the tension spring and need it.
In the past, it was advised here that there was no need for one, but don't remember who from. I had stars back up on me a couple of times, I now use tension springs on all my Penn, but you guys do as you please.
Sal
Thanks Adam, sent you an email, more than willing to cover additional cost!
My gear is stainless steel and not bronze, it's a rebuild from an older, and likely better model of the Penn 12/0, which is why I bought it.
There were no stainless gears made for the 12/0. It is made of chrome plated steel. Tough as they come.
Quote from: Alto Mare on September 19, 2016, 09:14:00 PM
Adam is one of the best!
What are you guys doing about the tension spring? All Penn reels come with the tension spring and need it.
In the past, it was advised here that there was no need for one, but don't remember who from. I had stars back up on me a couple of times, I now use tension springs on all my Penn, but you guys do as you please.
Sal
I would like to try a light Belleville washer from an International, and a wavy spring to help flatten the low end curve a bit, and keep the star in place. I have used Delron top cupped washer, or a SS cupped spring washer over a delron in place of stock.
There is only so much space to work with though.
And honestly I havn't messed around too much with different options on these guys yet.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 21, 2016, 05:20:15 AM
There were no stainless gears made for the 12/0. It is made of chrome plated steel. Tough as they come.
Daron,
Did you determine that the new 12/0, 14/0,& 16/0 Gear Sets from Scotts are in fact not Stainless Steel. Or are they just a bit pricy to consider as an upgrade option?
John
The new 14 and 16/0 main gears that you tipped me off to are stainless. These were a special order from Scott's. They have been out of them for a while. I've never seen a stainless offering for a 12/0.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_2966_zpscdgqsyjq.jpg)
Now I wish I would have kept a few sets for myself, instead of putting them in customers' reels. Hopefully Scott's can offer these again.
I received the additional washer and some carbon fiber drags.
It still appears to not go full drag. When I inserted the top washer from my other 12/0 it appears to really tighten like it should. Does anyone have any thoughts? I have a bunch of pics attached.
Wade,
You have pictures of a conventional stack and the insert.
Not sure what the issue is. I have tested these on a 12/0 and a 14/0 and I can lift a 30 lb weight without the drag slipping without it being locked down.
Feel free to drop me a pm to help and work this out. Bottom line, I'll buy it from you because I need another one for my reels.
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_2930_zpsetrockxc.jpg)
I will send you a PM.
I tried with just the insert and with + conventional metal washer at the end, it appeared to grab once I put the other metal washer in place. With just the insert may drag kept slipping.
It also seems to tighten well when using the ring washer I took off a 2015 Penn 12/0 model. This Penn 12/0 I rebuilt was pretty old, it had very old carbon fiber washers, so not significantly old, but definitely not a newer model with the chrome spool.
What are your thoughts of use the ring washer and/or a traditional metal washer at the end before the star?
Image attached with the ring washer.
Thanks,
Wade
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 19, 2016, 05:02:53 PM
There are differences in the steel and bronze gears. I use steel whenever possible. It just seems to work out better for me.
Send Adam a pm. I'm sure he will hook you up. I will see what I have.
Not to disagree with you and I'm glad your SS gears are working better for you.
On this particular reel, actually from the 10/0 and up to the 16/0, to me the brass main gear is a better choice and much smoother.
Now, if I've seen even just one of the stripped brass gear on these, I would change my mind.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 21, 2016, 05:25:41 AM
In the past, it was advised here that there was no need for one, but don't remember who from. I had stars back up on me a couple of times, I now use tension springs on all my Penn, but you guys do as you please.
Sal
I would like to try a light Belleville washer from an International, and a wavy spring to help flatten the low end curve a bit, and keep the star in place. I have used Delron top cupped washer, or a SS cupped spring washer over a delron in place of stock.
There is only so much space to work with though.
And honestly I havn't messed around too much with different options on these guys yet.
[/quote]
A light belleville ( spring washer ) might not work on these, you would need a stiff one.
A Delrin belleville does wonders on my Jigmasters, I really like it.
Sal
Quote from: wsenti on September 23, 2016, 12:06:05 PM
It also seems to tighten well when using the ring washer I took off a 2015 Penn 12/0 model. This Penn 12/0 I rebuilt was pretty old, it had very old carbon fiber washers, so not significantly old, but definitely not a newer model with the chrome spool.
What are your thoughts of use the ring washer and/or a traditional metal washer at the end before the star?
Image attached with the ring washer.
Thanks,
Wade
The spacer sleeve goes on top of the chromed stepped washer & felt ring.
Quote from: wsenti on September 23, 2016, 12:06:05 PM
It also seems to tighten well when using the ring washer I took off a 2015 Penn 12/0 model. This Penn 12/0 I rebuilt was pretty old, it had very old carbon fiber washers, so not significantly old, but definitely not a newer model with the chrome spool.
What are your thoughts of use the ring washer and/or a traditional metal washer at the end before the star?
Image attached with the ring washer.
Thanks,
Wade
With that spacer on top, you are not going to have enough room for the star and handle. You look to be at the right height without it.
What are you greasing the drags with?[quote author=Alto Mare link=topic=19227.msg205092#msg205092 date=1474633318]
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 19, 2016, 05:02:53 PM
There are differences in the steel and bronze gears. I use steel whenever possible. It just seems to work out better for me.
Send Adam a pm. I'm sure he will hook you up. I will see what I have.
Not to disagree with you and I'm glad your SS gears are working better for you.
On this particular reel, actually from the 10/0 and up to the 16/0, to me the brass main gear is a better choice and much smoother.
Now, if I've seen even just one of the stripped brass gear on these, I would change my mind.
I agree with the Bronze being smoother Sal. Its a Mental thing with me and the Steel. Also, When Adam first designed these inserts. We used steel gears for fitment of the original prototype.
I'm using Cals purple grease. Should I not use the spacer washer and a regular washer?
The issue is when I tighten the star it won't put enough pressure on the drag washers to actually create a real drag.
I could just use a regular flat metal washer from a normal carbon fiber drag that comes with most new Penn 12/0s at the top before the star.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 23, 2016, 05:55:43 PM
Quote from: wsenti on September 23, 2016, 12:06:05 PM
It also seems to tighten well when using the ring washer I took off a 2015 Penn 12/0 model. This Penn 12/0 I rebuilt was pretty old, it had very old carbon fiber washers, so not significantly old, but definitely not a newer model with the chrome spool.
What are your thoughts of use the ring washer and/or a traditional metal washer at the end before the star?
Image attached with the ring washer.
Thanks,
Wade
With that spacer on top, you are not going to have enough room for the star and handle. You look to be at the right height without it.
What are you greasing the drags with?[quote author=Alto Mare link=topic=19227.msg205092#msg205092 date=1474633318]
Quote from: Shark Hunter on September 19, 2016, 05:02:53 PM
There are differences in the steel and bronze gears. I use steel whenever possible. It just seems to work out better for me.
Send Adam a pm. I'm sure he will hook you up. I will see what I have.
Not to disagree with you and I'm glad your SS gears are working better for you.
On this particular reel, actually from the 10/0 and up to the 16/0, to me the brass main gear is a better choice and much smoother.
Now, if I've seen even just one of the stripped brass gear on these, I would change my mind.
I agree with the Bronze being smoother Sal. Its a Mental thing with me and the Steel. Also, When Adam first designed these inserts. We used steel gears for fitment of the original prototype.
Both gears will do just fine in these larger reels, the brass has an advantage when used the aluminum insert. I just didn't want the newer guys toss the brass gears to purchase new steel gears if they didn't have to.
All my reels that I've upgraded up to the 9/0 have stainless steel gears.
Quote from: wsenti on September 23, 2016, 06:22:57 PM
I'm using Cals purple grease. Should I not use the spacer washer and a regular washer?
The issue is when I tighten the star it won't put enough pressure on the drag washers to actually create a real drag.
I could just use a regular flat metal washer from a normal carbon fiber drag that comes with most new Penn 12/0s at the top before the star.
You are having issues with that belleville ( the cupped washer) will not work, unless you make its diameter the same size as the metal washers in the insert.
The belleville is hitting the top of the insert and it shouldn't. It might be easier on you to remove that belleville all together and replace it with a flat keyed washer, spacer on top and one of these on top of the spacer:
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8-115.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/8-115.aspx)
the only thing you will need to do is to enlarge the hole on the new tension spring by 1/16"...very easy to do, instead of making that belleville smaller.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
I have seen heavily worn bronze mains, that needed replacing. The bushing at the bittom is often loose too.
I agree with your point about the smoothness of the bronze mains, and they are large with big teeth, and rarely fail.
But it just seems to me when you start increasimg the drag to really big numbers with these inserts, considering stronger SS gears seems worthwhile.
You don't see anything but heat-treated steel and SS gears in the penn lever drag reels, they choose strength over smoothness here. Cal did the samevwith his 2-speed conversions.
Just some thoughts.
Increasing drags makes that same reel much smoother at where it was meant to be fished at. Smooth drags don't heat up as much.
I didn't say the brass gears don't wear out on these reels, I said I've never seen one. If you have some laying around, post a pic, I would love to see them. The plastic or brass insert doesn't just wear out on those, I've seen it on a few other gears, that is another issue,lieve the cause is related to twisting under stress.
Most reels we customize have frames or bars instead of posts, we should be fine.
John, Wsenti is asking about his drags and we're pulling away from his questions, so I'm not going to keep adding to this, maybe we'll discuss it another time when we get another chance.
Quote from: Alto Mare on September 23, 2016, 08:17:48 PM
Increasing drags makes that same reel much smoother at where it was meant to be fished at. Smooth drags don't heat up as much.
I didn't say the brass gears don't wear out on these reels, I said I've never seen one. If you have some laying around, post a pic, I would love to see them. The plastic or brass insert doesn't just wear out on those, I've seen it on a few other gears, that is another issue,lieve the cause is related to twisting under stress.
Most reels we customize have frames or bars instead of posts, we should be fine.
John, Wsenti is asking about his drags and we're pulling away from his questions, so I'm not going to keep adding to this, maybe we'll discuss it another time when we get another chance.
Rodger.
I'm deciding between adding:
A) the smaller ring that normal completes the stack on a traditional drag setup
or
B) just a metal washer
The reason for my logic of using the smaller ring is that it will actually push the drag stick in using the star as opposed to a normal metal washer that has a diameter wider than the drag insert.
What are your thoughts? Either of those two seem to do the trick for my drag....
The smaller ring as you call it is the spacer sleeve & belongs on top of the washer with the felt ring. On top of the spacer sleeve put the thick wavy washer & then the star, then the handle, & then the handle screw. Done! Rudy
Hey Rudy, I think you caught my eccentric backwards as well. Good eye.
I sent you a PM Rudy