There is a thought that has been rattling around in my head for awhile now -- and I need some expert help.
Plus, I am sure this is possible on some level -- not sure if feasible though.
Even with the best spinning reels ever made -- with the exception of one that I know of -- they all have at least one or two weak spots that could use improvement.
My passion for spinners and my niche is DAM Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU Cardinals.
These are vintage spinners that IMO are pretty capable, and will out-perform and outlast by decades -- most modern spinners costing hundreds of dollars.
However, as stated -- they all have a weak spot or two -- that if upgraded and improved upon -- would be nearly perfect.
For DAM Quick, some smaller Cardinal's, and a few Mitchells -- the weak spot is the plastic spools and small drags.
If there was a way to manufacture and offer aluminum spools, that would handle braid and CF greased drags -- these would be a 100% upgrade that I would put up against most reels being made today.
I would like to pick your brains as to what would be involved in producing aluminum spools for DAM Quick reels, to start --
Appreciate the thoughts of our members and experts.
Best Always,
Fred
Anything is possible Fred, it's just a matter of demand and cost.
Do you have a sample spool you can send me?
I like where this is going.
:D
Personally, I think there would be a larger market out there for aftermarket aluminum spools with a versa-drag style stack for the Cardinal 4. Shear numbers sold in the US dictate that there are alot of the reels still in use today.
Definately worth exploring.
John
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on January 15, 2017, 09:28:54 PM
Anything is possible Fred, it's just a matter of demand and cost.
Do you have a sample spool you can send me?
Tom, does Fred have a sample spool? ???
Does a bear eat in the woods? :D
steve
Thanks, Tom --
The 3 reels you ordered for your personal use will be mailed to you in a day or two -- I will include an extra reel in 220 size, fully restored -- for you to keep.
Plus a couple of sample spools and sleeves.
John, you have a good point, however --
While there is a demand for the ABU Cardinals -- the reality is that the majority of these are in collections -- are fairly valuable -- and would need to be kept in original condition.
The reason I am starting with DAM Quick is -- There are many more of them out there worldwide -- they are still fairly reasonable to purchase -- and I have around 60,000 NOS parts for them as I do service, restorations, and upgrades for folks and reels I offer to members.
I do not collect reels -- I prefer to keep one or two of each model -- then the rest are restored to fishing condition -- and put out in the world for fishermen who intend to use them.
I would just like to make them as capable as possible -- lifetime reels.
Best,
Fred
Fred, I think you've underestimated the number of Cardinal 3 & 4 reels, and 6 & 7 for that matter, still in use today. I have 7 Card 4s, 3 Card 3s and 2 Card 6s that I regularly use, and 3 spare Card 4s, 2 spare Card 3s, 1 spare Cardinal 6 and 2 Cardinal 7s sitting there ready to go at any given moment if the need arises. There are a lot of guys that still use them, especially the reels that have a lot of boat rash, because of their extremely high quality and remarkable design with the fulcrum drag adjustment where it's easily accessed out of the way at the back of the body and the drag mechanism inside the body where it's much more protected from the intrusion of dirt, sand and water, not to mention the anti-reverse mechanism with the teeth cut into the pinion rather than using a ratchet gear attached to the main gear assembly. That exceptional design relieves unneeded stress on the main and pinion gear teeth. Besides that, fish can't tell pretty. ;D
Aluminum spools have been available for about 20 years for the Cardinal 4 and probably 8 to 10 years for the Cardinal 3. American Classic Sales introduced their Classic IV in 1996. All AM Classic IV parts are interchangeable with ABU & Zebco Cardinal 4s and the Classic IV came out with an aluminum spool. For a long time, if you had purchased a Classic IV from AM Classic Sales, you could purchase as many additional spools as wanted. From around 2004 or 5 on they limited extra spools to 3 per reel purchased. Most fishermen that purchased the AM Classic reels were already aware of the superior reel design because they'd had experience with an ABU or Zebco Cardinal 4 and when purchasing the AM Classic IV purchased as many aluminum spools as they could. They were originally $23.00, and $25.00 in 2005 or 6 when they ceased sales. Aluminum spools can be purchased for the Cardinal 3 and 4 for around $38.00 shipped. Interestingly enough, a new plastic Cardinal 4 spool costs about $35.00 shipped. :o I have noticed that there have been a few people advertising, and selling, aluminum spools that are actually plastic, not aluminum. I saw a group of 10 Cardinal 3 spools just the other day that were advertised as aluminum but they were plastic. It is easy to tell the difference from photos but the buyer needs to be knowledgeable about what to look for. I think someone, whether it be the buyer, or maybe even the seller, is going to get a surprise on that relatively expensive lot. ???
I've switched to aluminum spools on all my fishing Cardinals and retired all my plastic Cardinal 3 & 4 spools. I've got over 20 Cardinal 4 and 10 Cardinal 3 aluminum spools for use. The retired plastics are displayed on reels that now only go shelf fishing. ;)
You and John are absolutely right, about the Cardinals, Tommy --
And they are possibly one of the best and most reliable spinning reels on the planet -- pure simple genius design and proven longevity. A couple of weak spots, but as mentioned -- even the best reels have a flaw or two.
But in order to see if this is a possibility, I need to start somewhere where a market can be developed.
A Quick reel can be purchased for perhaps $20 to $40, add $30 for service and parts, and $40 for an aluminum spool with CF greased drags -- and you have $80 to $110 invested in a very high quality performing reel + shipping.
There are plenty of Quicks for sale -- and many more just collecting dust in someone's garage -- because it needs a part or two, the grease went stiff, and the spool brokee in half.
The Cardinals will go for generally 2 or 3 times the cost of a Quick.
And only the early Quicks had a metal spool -- and no one has ever made after-market metal spools for these, or the Finessa and "Finessa N" series.
Penns have metal spools, majority of Mitchells have metal spools, even with the demise of Am Classic over 10 years ago -- there are metal spools out there for Cardinals.
It could very well be that folks would use Quicks more -- if metal spools were available.
And we need to start somewhere where there would be a need -- but there is certainly room for metal spools for the Zebco, Cardinals, Mitchells, as well as the Quicks.
My goal would be to introduce folks to a line of quality reels that would use more modern CF greased drags, aluminum spools, modern lubes, be simple and bulletproof in operation, and inexpensive to acquire -- and last for decades if cared for responsibly.
This may all be a pipe dream -- but we will see...
We all have our passions -- and need to develop our niche. Can't be all things to all people -- and at the end of the day -- we just do our highest and best with what we have.
Is any one manufacturing aluminum spools now for the Cardinals -- if so, do you know who that is?
Best,
Fred
Awe man, Fred has me thinking again...and you know what that means...what comes in, something tends to go out...I would love to design a new spool shaft and for Penn's SS series. That shaft out of tempered Stainless Steel and a spool with beefier drag system...
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 16, 2017, 09:05:03 AM
Awe man, Fred has me thinking again...and you know what that means...what comes in, something tends to go out...I would love to design a new spool shaft and for Penn's SS series. That shaft out of tempered Stainless Steel and a spool with beefier drag system...
I don't know Bryan, to me the SS spool shaft is one of the best out there :-\.
The way it's designed, as going through the housing and into a bushing at the rer, it's very hard to fail.
The spool is also a good design, especially when using your 5 washers kit.
The only thing I would change on the SS would be the pinion, I would make it in stainless steel, not that the brass pinion fails often, it just gets a little loose where the shaft rides. But this happens after long usage..still functional though.
We already have ss ratchets, ss dogs, your drag kits. I thing we're good with the SS.
Of course, this is just my opinion.
Sal
Fred. I have a quick 330. Are there limitations on the line that can be used on that reel/spool?
Quote from: Lunker Larry on January 16, 2017, 01:35:34 PM
Fred. I have a quick 330. Are there limitations on the line that can be used on that reel/spool?
Really no issues, Larry --
The 330 will accommodate a large range of line and test.
Here is the official line chart from a 330 owners manual --
Frankly, more plastic spools are broken by winding mono on too tightly, leaving the mono on for a few years of non-use, letting the kid at Big 5 see how fast and tightly he can spool your reel with the power winder, or by dropping it one time on the garage floor during service (don't ask why I know this last one so well...).
Metal like aluminum cast or turned -- is just bulletproof, forgiving, and tough in the clinch.
Any reel is only as strong as the frame -- we can over drag, over component, or hot rod to a point where the least speed bump ruins your reel.
However, having said that -- it is like a car -- Red Line on my tachometer may be at 7500 RPMs -- and I have never even approached that -- but if for some unknown reason I needed to -- I would not want to replace my engine.
Same thing with plastic vs. metal spools, IMO -- forgiving...
One thing that few folks know -- the earlier Quicks all had metal spools -- the 110,220,221,330,331,440,550,110N, 220N, 330N, 331N, 440N, 441N, & 550N...all were plastic.
This was a popular line of Quicks that were produced from about 1967 through 1987. Hundreds of thousands out there, and many need just a good service, a few parts, modern lubes, and to make it super capable, a metal spool and modern greased drags.
A kind of neat thing you can do, is find a metal spool from an old 280 or 285 -- it just fits perfect on a 330 -- but not a 330N.
A metal spool weighs in at 1.7 ounces -- plastic is 1.0 ounce -- in my book -- not an appreciable difference.
These spools are cast -- not turned. Sure be nice to make a few thousand of these for folks. Where are the old molds?
Tom may come up with a different technique -- he is a Wizard!
Best,
Fred
Hey Fred,
I just had a great thought! If you'd sort through the left hand side of that tub and combine any Cardinal parts you find in there, including that 50/150/550 series spool, with the right side of the tub and send it to me I would put it all to VERY GOOD use! ;D
Yes, someone is making aluminum spools for the Cardinal 3 & 4 but I'm not sure where they're being made. Mike Arhontakis (Cardinal Parts in Canada) has them for sale every now and then and Les Shaw (Classic Vintage Fishing Tackle in the UK) generally has them all the time.
Had me scared for a min.Tom, have a Les Shaw spool on the way, advertised as aluminium. That first post a yours talked 'bout advertised as al., but plastic(Zebco(Abu) Cardinal 4). What about the plastic bail articulators/spring holder things? Unacceptable to me or am I bein too particular?
Gfish
Thanks Fred. Appreciate your time and response.
Larry
Quote from: Gfish on January 16, 2017, 08:58:40 PM
Had me scared for a min.Tom, have a Les Shaw spool on the way, advertised as aluminium. That first post a yours talked 'bout advertised as al., but plastic(Zebco(Abu) Cardinal 4). What about the plastic bail articulators/spring holder things? Unacceptable to me or am I bein too particular?
Gfish
I don't know about being too particular, but you may be overly concerned about something that, at least to me, hasn't proven to be an issue. I've got 65 green and/or tan ABU & Zebco Cardinals and black American Classic IV rear drag fulcrum brake reels. I haven't found any of those 3 plastic parts to be an appreciable maintenance or wear problem. I've never run into a stripped or broken drag knob and have only come across 4 bail arms or bail plates that were excessively worn or broken. One was a Cardinal 4 bale plate where the bail had been screwed into the plate so far that it cracked the plate, another was a Cardinal 4 bail arm that had a chip where it rests on the bail trip lever, I found a Cardinal 7 bail arm, which actually incorporates a metal insert, where the insert was worn, and the last one was a Cardinal 6 bail plate that was broken where the notch catches the nylon bail stopper. I'd say that's really not too bad considering there's a combined 2900 +- reel years, or over a million combined reel days worth of existence in that group of 65 reels. I've run across more worn metal bails, bail arms and bail screws on each of the Italian, French, German, Swiss, Japanese, etc. reels than I have ever seen on ABU made Cardinal reels, including many of the '80s & 90's Japanese made Cardinal bail arms & plates. They are, like most quality items, not made to be abused, though, such as just being thrown down in the boat or tossed into the back of the pickup, etc. IMO they, and that means any fine high quality reel, should be maintained and treated with some respect. If so, they'll more than likely last a lifetime, or maybe even two.
Now, if you were to say you thought there was a weak link in the Cardinal 4, and occasionally the Cardinal 3, plastic spools, that when fully and tightly filled with mono or braid without a cork or plastic spool filler or some sort of Dacron type backing and/or were left out for long periods in direct UV rays or in an extremely cold garage or shed through the winter months, all of which contribute immensely to the front of the spool popping off, or that the Cardinal 6 & 7 nylon connecting link attachment that gets brittle and breaks after about 30 years was a weak link, I would absolutely agree, but like I said earlier, aluminum spools have been around for 20 years for the Cardinal 4 and about 10 years for the Cardinal 3. An all metal replacement connecting link has been available for the Cardinal 6 & 7 since about 1980.
No spinning reel is perfect but if you utilize these minor repair/fixes where and/or when they're needed you won't find a much better or reliable reel, at least for my money, anyway.
Here's some Cardinal 3 & 4 plastic & aluminum spool comparisons:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_18_343262143.jpeg)
This is an original early Cardinal 3 plastic spool. It weighs in @ .70 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_17_34325536.jpeg)
This is a later, '77/'78ish lettered Cardinal 3 plastic spool coming in @ .73 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_18_343272393.jpeg)
This is an aluminum Cardinal 3 spool. It weighs 1.38 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_20_34329390.jpeg)
This one is the earliest version Cardinal 4 plastic spools that was used from '69 - '74 and basically weighs 1 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_20_34328789.jpeg)
This is the second generation Cardinal 4 plastic spool used from '75 - '78. It weighs 1.09 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_21_343302192.jpeg)
This is a SporTech/American Classic IV aluminum spool (fits all green & tan ABU & Zebco Cardinal 4s) from 1997. It weighs 1.57 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_21_343311174.jpeg)
This is a Cardinal 4 aluminum spool filled with 20 yds of 12# Dacron backing & 130 yds of 8# Trilene XL mono. Total weight 2.26 oz.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_22_343322015.jpeg)
Here's the back of all seven spools. The top row are aluminum and the bottom row are plastic. The 3 on the left are Cardinal 3s and the 4 on the right are Cardinal 4's. Notice the difference in the surface areas around the main shaft hole.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_17_34324351.jpeg)
Here's the back of another style aluminum Cardinal spool. Both the 3 & 4 look the same here. It has 8 holes drilled to reduce weight. The grooves for the main shaft cross pin have been ground in and those groves are sometimes anodized.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_23_34333807.jpeg)
This is a plastic spool that has often been advertised as aluminum. It is very hard plastic and difficult to differentiate without cutting into one of those spokes. Notice the mold mark and the molded #2 directly across. Don't be fooled by this one.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17004_03_02_21_5_10_25_343341967.jpeg)
These are my extra Cardinal 3, 4 & American Classic IV aluminum spools.
Good information here.
I must say the Cardinal 4 is my all time favorite spinner. I should probably pick up a few of these aluminum spools.
I guess what I was thinking about when Fred first posed the question, was that a new custom aluminum spool with a modified drag chamber to accept a versa drag style system.. would push this reel over the top.
I was also thinking that those bullet proof DAMs would also benefit greatly from a similar system.
How much more difficult would it be to design and machine a spool or spool (s) and corresponding drag components then just having aluminum spools machined following the stock design?
It seems to me we already have reels available with versa drag style drag components (such as a BTLII5000, etc) that are available that could be used in these reels if a custom spool was designed and fabricated.
Just some thoughts.
John
I only fish in saltwater and am not good at taking care of stuff. I've never exploded a plastic spool but have come close and know it can be a problem. I did ruin a couple of aluminum spools though through neglect and corrosion. A vintage aluminum spool was eaten up very quickly when put on the shelf with wet line. Now an anodized aluminum spool on a modern Shimano low profile has a corroded hole in the flange. It's all preventable with proper maintenance of aluminum or the proper backing under plastic. Give me the plastic one.
-steve
In my mind the benefit would be in a better drag system with higher numbers. If the rest of the reel is capable of handling it that in itself would make it worth while. Sheridan
I think a big thing to keep in mind here, especially in this day and age, is that most of those reels Fred originally mentioned are generally considered freshwater reels, with the exception of maybe the Dam 550, Cardinal 7, Penn 700 & 704 and Mitchell 302, and those reels, at the very best, nowadays, should only be considered light saltwater reel. While extremely well designed and built, they will, and do, have their limitations. :)
Perfect point, Tommy --
And of all the reels Tommy mentioned -- I might add the 270 Super, 706, and the larger Mitchell's.
But these already have metal spools, along with Cardinals -- with the exception of the Quick 550.
So this is really just baby steps -- although I am dead serious about figuring out a way to produce and market these for the Quicks that currently have plastic spools.
Any of the reels Tommy mentioned can have their drags upgraded because they already have a metal spool -- it is not difficult -- and a good, inexpensive improvement.
For now, we are covered on the others -- we just need aluminum spools for the 14 Quicks -- that I mentioned.
Not anodized in colors -- just plain, polished aluminum for longevity and easy ID as an upgrade.
I just happen to have around 350 complete Quicks & 500 Mitchells -- so that is my focus -- the Quicks.
If this takes off -- and makes sense -- we could add other reels as possible.
For now, with Tom's help, advice, and input -- we will just take a bite out of the Bull -- not eat the whole thing at one time.
Best to All,
Fred
Fred, I'm sure someone with some talent could take a plastic spool and use it to make a sand mold and cast it in aluminum. The reels you are talking about are pretty small so shrinkage would be small on the finished part. You probably wouldn't have to worry about it. You might have to make a core box to make a sand core for the drag washers/shaft. Depending on the quality of the green sand there might not be much to clean up on the casting after shakeout. Just a thought. Bob
What ever became of this?
I am interested!
Tad
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,32384.0.html