well, this isnt my 1st 113h I service or change drags, but I still havent figured out why I still only getting 12-13# drag as max with new HT-100 kit installed.
too much Cals grease on the drag washers?
Im pretty sure all the metal washers and HT-100 washers were installed on the main gear
Do I need to change the presure washer too or add another metal washer?
the reel is still using the stock "hard fiber" under main gear washer, should I change it for a carbontex one?
I try to lock the drag with my hands and still I think 14# was the max drag I could get
there are no much internal parts to check so, Im kind of lost.
Line slipping on the spool?
Start with the simple things first Alex.
You say you think all the washers are in there.
Double check the stack to be 100% sure and then go from there.
If the star is bottoming out, you need more washers.
The hard fiber under the gear shouldn't have anything to do with it.
Quote from: steelfish on June 27, 2017, 04:35:54 PM
well, this isnt my 1st 113h I service or change drags, but I still havent figured out why I still only getting 12-13# drag as max with new HT-100 kit installed.
too much Cals grease on the drag washers?
Im pretty sure all the metal washers and HT-100 washers were installed on the main gear
Do I need to change the presure washer too or add another metal washer?
the reel is still using the stock "hard fiber" under main gear washer, should I change it for a carbontex one?
I try to lock the drag with my hands and still I think 14# was the max drag I could get
there are no much internal parts to check so, Im kind of lost.
Did you change out a stock 3-stack or 5-stack for the new HT-100 drag kit? The reason I ask is that sometimes the slots on the main gear from a 3-stack is not machined that deep and therefore you end up with no or partial contact with the first 2 HT-100 drag washers.
Second thing I would check is the gear sleeve. Is the metal drag washer getting hung up on the gear sleeve? I've seen a few of those as well.
Lastly is the last eared washer...is it getting hung up on the top of the main gear (often slips when installing).
Quote from: MarkT on June 27, 2017, 04:37:41 PM
Line slipping on the spool?
the reel has 50# mono line from many previous trips, so its pretty tight on the spool
@ Daron, I will check the reel again tonight and align everything again.
I forgot to tell that the reel was using the very old drag stack (3 thick hard plastic washers) and had a really sticky drag, so I recommended the owner to change it to a stock HT100 kit, seems like the old drag stack package was thicker than the new drag stack, I never meassured both to check that out but I will do it to check If I need to add an additional washer
Quote from: Bryan Young on June 27, 2017, 05:12:14 PM
Did you change out a stock 3-stack or 5-stack for the new HT-100 drag kit? The reason I ask is that sometimes the slots on the main gear from a 3-stack is not machined that deep and therefore you end up with no or partial contact with the first 2 HT-100 drag washers.
this is the 1st thing I will check, normally I check that out on every reel but I could have missed this on the reel.
Quote from: steelfish on June 27, 2017, 05:15:15 PM
I forgot to tell that the reel was using the very old drag stack (3 thick hard plastic washers) and had a really sticky drag, so I recommended the owner to change it to a stock HT100 kit, seems like the old drag stack package was thicker than the new drag stack.
I'd say herein lies the problem...bet that star is bottoming out. Also like Bryan said...those ear cutouts need to be deep enough for a 5-stack. As a last resort...those stock Penn metals that come with the drag kit can be so rounded from the stamping process they can rob you of power. Filing them flat does wonders, I had the same problem with a jigmaster that you're experiencing now. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on June 27, 2017, 05:43:06 PM
...those stock Penn metals that come with the drag kit can be so rounded from the stamping process they can rob you of power. Filing them flat does wonders, I had the same problem with a jigmaster that you're experiencing now. 8)[/color]
so, Mo, if Im understanding you well, what you are saying that the metal washers that come in the kit are too polished or smooth and dont offer any surface to bite from the carbon washers?
I have some fine small files that I can use to made the surface of the metal washers a bit rough
PS: this sounds like a fair tip, those metal washers when new are too shiny like a mirror
NO Alex, the washers should be flat and smooth. You can hone them on a nice flat stone but that only gains a pound or two. Your problem is elsewhere. Start with what Daron said first. Rudy
thanks Rudy
Like I quoted Daron...start with checking stack height. As far as the washer deal...it's the opposite Alex...the smoother they are the better they bite. Think of it like clutch plates in a car...same principle. I was referring to the "rounded" shape of them. File just a bit on one, you'll see what I mean, there will be an area unaffected until you shave a little more off. Then lap them smooth. The carbontex washers contact more surface when the metal washers are perfectly flat. Making those metals smooth and flat will definitely gain a few pounds. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on June 27, 2017, 08:54:47 PM
As far as the washer deal...it's the opposite Alex...the smoother they are the better they bite.
Alex, to understand this I had to think on the microscopic level. The difference between a mirror surface and a rough surface on a metal drag washer is scratches. The high points on the metals are what contact the carbon fiber drag discs. The smoother the metal, the fewer the high points, and the more surface in touch with the carbon fiber, therefore more drag. But, as Rudy said, that's not your problem, I'm just offering an explanation that makes sense to me (I'm not sure it's the best explanation).
Sid
Hey fellas...what is the stock 113H drag kit rated at? What's the expected max?
Mo, Sid and Rudy, thanks guys just learned something new today about smooth surfaces for better drag
The stock drag with HT-100's should be 22lbs.
I get 30lbs with the under gear Delrin washer and Carbontex drag washers. If you grease them too much the drag drops quickly.
I wipe all the grease off on a towel before installing.
Quote from: handi2 on June 27, 2017, 11:13:25 PM
The stock drag with HT-100's should be 22lbs.
Thanks Keith. I wasn't sure what should be expected from the HT-100 kit. My only 113H has the Smooth Drag kit plus Bryan's under gear set which gives me 6 working surfaces. It gave me a finger tight 25lbs. at top of the spool.
Alex, did you get to look at the drag stack again yet? The suspense is killin' me! I love these "lets figure it out"
posts, I always learn something.
Alex, if everything is in order check the star, sometimes it doesn't hold pressure when crank down. Try another, see if you get better numbers. The spring washer or belleville (cupped washer) also go bad at times, try adifferent ones, depending on which plate you have.
Don't worry about the groves on the gear not going all the way down, that would never be an issue. By the time you place the first CF washer the second keyed washer and the third CF washer you'll be well over 3mm in height. Groves not going all the way down need to be looked at Only when Bryan's kits are used.
I usually get 22lb with the standard wahers as you have, maybe a couple of pounds more if cranked really tight.
Sal
Quote from: mo65 on June 27, 2017, 11:26:04 PM
Alex, did you get to look at the drag stack again yet? The suspense is killin' me! I love these "lets figure it out" posts, I always learn something. [/color]
still working on my normal job Mo, dont get impatient amigo haha.
pacific time here in Baja so still normal working hours, Im about to leave the office in few minutes, then my normal comute to home of 20 minutes, play with the kids, have dinner and then at 9pm start my switch for reel & rod repair.
I need to finish to install some guides on a rod Im rebuilding and later will check the 113h reel again.
inside the main gear are slots that run top to bottom to accommodate the "slotted" metal washers. any chance you have an old main gear where the slots only run 2/3rd of the way down?
well, on these days I made many different configurations on the drag stack of this reel but still not 100% happy, that way I havent updated this thread these days.
I checked the drag stack and eared metal washers looking for something wrong, I actually changed one of the thin metal washers from the new HT-100 kit for a thicker metal washer of the old 3-drag, installed the thicker metal washer just after the first carbon washer on the bottom of the main gear, the idea was to cover the space where the main gear have no slots and dont run into this problem, seems that worked really good in theory, on top of the drag stack I actually add a second metal washer before the presure washer at the end/top as spacer to give something more material to the star to tighten.
the handle feels pretty free when you turn it so its nothing on the drag stack binding or reachin the sideplate, the spool spins smooth and freely in free-spool, if I tighten the star manually with all my strenght I can only reach 14# :( :(, Im not a strong guy so this might the be the culprit hahahaha.
I actually using the nice scale that my man Riverrat sent me to check everything correctly, with the reel attached to a rod, I made a loop at the end of the line and pull with the scale attached to my garden fence, the line star peeling at 14# smoothly when giving line, but there is no way I can tighten the reel more manually to reach 2-3 # more
* with my Baja and same rod, I reached 20# easily with no much effort on the star, pretty sure I can reach more If I put some more effort to tighten it.
* with a chinese 113h clone (with 3 stack of 112h HT-100 washers) I reached 13# with no problemo.
so, I used a wrench to help me to tighten the star but checking to no locking the drag up
this way I could reach 16#, then tighten a bit more and got 18# and then 20# drag with still giving some line out, so drag wasnt locked up.
ideas?
am I too weak for tighten this reel?
are the 3 metal washers at the top a no-no? any other configuration to add space to the star to dont bottoming up on the side plate
used another metal star as Sal recommended but the result was the same 14# using my hands to tighten it
once again, the main gear is brand new as well as the HT-100 kit, took as many cals grase as I could using a old towel.
Just to double check, I checked the drag on my tiburon frame 113h reel which is using a Keta octagon adapter and could reach 18# easily tightening the star with my hands, pretty sure can reach 20# to 22# If I want to.
Alex show a pic of the complete assembly with the spacer and the star. Also lay them out on the bench and take a pic of the layout with everything you're using.
Real interesting problem. I'mna guess it's a lack a flatness/smothness on the metal washers. Alex, have you tried a CF washer only, under the main gear?
Gfish
The stack has to be out of order.
It should be pulling more drag.
Lay the stack out like Sal said, and let us see it.
Something is amuck here.
We want to figure this out.
Ok guys, thanks por the interest
This is the current drag stack layout
Also a pic ir the star and spacer
As you can see Im using a CF washer under the main gear
Your keyed and flat metal washes are out of sequence my man.
Start from the bottom left to right.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-113HSP.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-113HSP.aspx)
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Yoh need to swap the 2nd keyed washer (from the base of gear) with the first of the eared washers.
ie. you have laid the first four metal washers KKEE
K = keyed washer
E = eared washer
Swap to KEKE, then whatever you have on top and see how you go
Make sure there is a CF washer between each metal.
Put a carbon fiber in the bottom of the gear, Then a metal washer with no ears on it.
Then another carbon fiber and an eared metal washer with the tabs on it, then alternate this sequence.
You have your two metal eared washers on top of the stack. This is the issue. The bottom is just spinning.
Hence, your lack of drag.
I will do the KEKE config but if I not wrong that was my 1st configuration then I though what Alan said, the tabs on the 1st eared washer might be reaching the bottom of the slot on the main gear so, I switched to KKEE configuration
I will go back to keke and let you know on Sunday
yeah, the metal washers are out of sequence. go keyed, slotted, keyed, slotted, keyed, belleville.
I occasionaly will have to put a thin eared washer (.020" or .035") with the ears ground off on the bottom of the stack then CF, keyed, CF, eared and on. This will make room so the ears on the bottom eared washer do not bottom out in the groves in the gear.
Quote from: Keta on July 08, 2017, 02:01:47 PM
I occasionaly will have to put a thin keyed washer (.020" or .035") on the bottom of the stack then CF, keyed, CF, eared and on. This will make room so the ears on the bottom eared washer do not bottom out in the groves in the gear.
pretty clever amigo Lee, this is a really good tip
Im outta town today but I will check this reel again tomorrow or Monday at the most
It seems to me that a metal keyed washer on the bottom would be grinding metal into metal in
the main gear whenever the drag slips. It seems to me you should put a thicker first CF or double up on the first CF. Rudy
Quote from: RowdyW on July 08, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
It seems to me that a metal keyed washer on the bottom would be grinding metal into metal in
the main gear whenever the drag slips. It seems to me you should put a thicker first CF or double up on the first CF. Rudy
I ment eared w/ears ground off.
Lee, sounds like a solution, 'cept don't the ground-ear-washer still grind on the bottom a the main gear?
Gfish
Yup, metal to metal & it will still be a grinder. You need a piece of CF between all metal till you reach the top of the stack.
Quote from: Rothmar2 on July 08, 2017, 07:03:33 AM
Yoh need to swap the 2nd keyed washer (from the base of gear) with the first of the eared washers.
Swap to KEKE, then whatever you have on top and see how you go
Make sure there is a CF washer between each metal.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on July 08, 2017, 07:14:18 AM
Put a carbon fiber in the bottom of the gear, Then a metal washer with no ears on it.
Then another carbon fiber and an eared metal washer with the tabs on it, then alternate this sequence.
You have your two metal eared washers on top of the stack. This is the issue. The bottom is just spinning.
Hence, your lack of drag.
Quote from: alantani on July 08, 2017, 01:14:20 PM
yeah, the metal washers are out of sequence. go keyed, slotted, keyed, slotted, keyed, belleville.
well, thanks guys, this was the ticket, the only thing I did different than the 1st time was to put the thick keyed washer (from the old stock drag stack) just after the 1st CF washer to avoid having the Eared washer to hit the end of slot on the main gear, seems that worked really good, dang.. I still have a lot to learn about reels ;D ;D
now without much effort just tightening with my hands I could now reach 21# and pretty sure I will be able to lock the drags if I want to, also now the star turns really smooth/soft while tighten the drag, nothing compared to the numbers I was getting few days ago.
note to myselft : the key is to use the correct configuration and be sure to avoid to hit the bottom of the slots on the main gear
Quote from: steelfish on July 11, 2017, 04:59:18 PM
well, thanks guys, this was the ticket, the only thing I did different than the 1st time was to put the thick keyed washer (from the old stock drag stack) just after the 1st CF washer to avoid having the Eared washer to hit the end of slot on the main gear, seems that worked really good, dang.. I still have a lot to learn about reels ;D ;D
[/quote]
Yeah, me too. We learn something every day.
You must have a different brass main gear, on mine the slots stop at 3mm from the bottom.
When I place the first 3 washer from the 5 stack kit (2- CF+ 1- K), I'm well above the slot.
When I measure those 3 washers I get 3.5mm.
I'm glad you got yours to work compadre, Just wondering why yours is different.
Sal
I just realized I cut my own washers for the 113H's, your washers from the kit might be thinner, that would explain it.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 11, 2017, 05:22:21 PM
Yeah, me too. We learn something every day.
You must have a different brass main gear, on mine the slots stop at 3mm from the bottom.
When I place the first 3 washer from the 5 stack kit (2- CF+ 1- K), I'm well above the slot.
When I measure those 3 washers I get 3.5mm.
I'm glad you got yours to work compadre, Just wondering why yours is different.
Sal
I just realized I cut my own washers for the 113H's, your washers from the kit might be thinner, that would explain it.
well my brass main gear might be similar to yours but I skipped to check drag using only the HT-100 kit, too many times taking in out and in, so I just used the thick metal washer and called a day when got the 21#
PS: now that you mention the thickness of the washers are thinner that some early one I got, some of the early ones I got are thicker, they have a thicker fiber in the middle
It's weird that you had the old three stack, but in a brass gear/non side accessible reel. I have had to use the thick keyed washer as the first one for the steel gears in a couple of my setups. I'm glad you got it figured out.
ETA: I believe it was Keith who suggested using a delrin washer under the star to help with tightening it. You might want to give it a try.