hey guys :)
I guess a lot of you have heard about a reel called concept z. I saw a blog from Icast and came over this baitcaster that has zero BB only polymer "bearings".... If it is true (as it seems) this could be a revolution for fishing reels. Cool videos as well with pro anglers testing these for the first time (apparently in awe....)
Their webpage: http://www.13fishing.com/concept-z/
youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQo_Hf4ncOM
Anyways, I sent them an email regarding getting my hands on some of these polymer stuff to put in my jigging-reels.... Will keep you posted on their response.
The whole thing seems to good to be true. What do you guys think? wouldn`t it be great to remove all bearings and replace them with polymer bushings that apparently gives you greater smoothness and casting distance than the best hybrid ceramics bearings- and they are close to maintenance free.... 8)
The reel itself is hitting the stores feb. 2018
Sounds/looks really good. Interested in longevity, load bearing ability and cost of these new fangled bearings...
Gfish
Polymer bearings could very well be bushings as many in the reel industry still refer to bushings as bearings.
The material is likely Teflon impregnated Delrin because of it's hardness and low coefficient of friction. This is likely perfect for use in a small bait-casting reel.
Bushings are often called plain bearings. Nothing wrong with bronze but modern plastic is amazing.
Why perfect for only baicasters?
I cannot see any drawbacks with this (as long as it performs as well as they claim) Are there any?
If this is good for a baitcaster it should atleast be good replacing your spool bearings... axial load etc. is another thing to take into concideration.... I would love to have "close to" maintenance free spool bearings in my reels...
They answered my email and responded that they will provide Upgrades kits for their older reels. Measurements of these are up on their site. their Upgrade kits are priced at 50-100 USD.
Regarding price: The New reel will Retail for 200USD at tackledirect.com (I believe it is 7 of these bushings or so inside this reel, so it cannot be that expensive...)
See Picture of the "concept zero bearings" as they Call it: http://www.indepthangler.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/P7316153.jpg
Here is the post I saw from tackletour: http://www.tackletour.com/reviewicast1713fishingconceptz.html
Intriguing, to say the least. But I'm curious: The reel sounds like it has instant anti-reverse. Does it have an anti-reverse bearing made of the same stuff? That would be absolutely amazing...
They may work fine but we all know about marketing. Ive been inside plenty of 13C reels. Open the case next to a Pflueger reel and its the same molded casing.
never tried, but 13fishing seems to offer decent price:value & less obscene marketing ploys (albeit, I looked at rods more than reels)
Quote from: handi2 on December 20, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
They may work fine but we all know about marketing. Ive been inside plenty of 13C reels. Open the case next to a Pflueger reel and its the same molded casing.
yeah, but Pflueger is outsourcing to Korea, while 13fishing IS Korean -- probably Pflueger's OEM
Quote from: hafnor on December 20, 2017, 03:23:44 PM
Why perfect for only baicasters?
My statement only referred to that particular class of reel as it was presented.
Newell had, I believe they were called "speed bearings" that replaced the jigmaster and similar reels bearing (bushings) with Teflon impregnated delrin bearings (bushings). They work great, but I believe that if you put a lot of pressure over time, they ovaled then requiring replacing.
The spool journals look like they are over-sized on that reel.
-steve
Great; very interesting to see someone choosing this direction. Not sure exactly wherein the novelty lies though-- ABU made plain bearing reels for ages; so did Penn. I bumped into the owner of Omoto a long time ago and he showed me his great new reel, very proud to say it had no ball bearings.
I guess the novelty here is choosing a polymer bearing. SKF has a wide variety. I used some earlier today.
.
Robert, the only thing I can find on the SKF site are polymer ball bearings.
To say something is a polymer does not tell us much. All plastics are polymers including nylon, PVC, polyethylene, ABS, acetal including Delrin and all the rest. Most synthetic resins (e.g epoxies or polyester) cure into polymers. To refer to the bushings as a polymer is just a way to avoid saying they are plastic. Don't get me wrong though; I love plastic.
Before the synthetics revolution, the best bushing material was probably oil impregnated sintered bronze. Now bronze is being replaced with plastics impregnated with reinforcing fiber and solid lubricants. There is lubricant impregnated nylon, impregnated ultra high density polyethylene and probably others.
I keep thinking about that enlarged spool journal. It may be designed to increase the bearing surface area. A larger surface area could release more lubrication. But, then again, maybe oil impregnation is not needed in an application like fishing reels that are already dripping with oil.
-steve
http://www.skf.com/binary/68-107917/SKF-composite-plain-bearings---11004-EN.pdf
and this attached PDF down below has pretty good info
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 20, 2017, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: hafnor on December 20, 2017, 03:23:44 PM
Why perfect for only baicasters?
My statement only referred to that particular class of reel as it was presented.
Newell had, I believe they were called "speed bearings" that replaced the jigmaster and similar reels bearing (bushings) with Teflon impregnated delrin bearings (bushings). They work great, but I believe that if you put a lot of pressure over time, they ovaled then requiring replacing.
This is the first thing I thought of. I wonder if they wouldn't "ovalize" on the bigger reels first fight? I couldn't see them standing up to say, a 9/0 with harness on. :(
Quote from: Army_of_One on December 21, 2017, 03:19:21 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 20, 2017, 06:30:22 PM
Quote from: hafnor on December 20, 2017, 03:23:44 PM
Why perfect for only baicasters?
My statement only referred to that particular class of reel as it was presented.
Newell had, I believe they were called "speed bearings" that replaced the jigmaster and similar reels bearing (bushings) with Teflon impregnated delrin bearings (bushings). They work great, but I believe that if you put a lot of pressure over time, they ovaled then requiring replacing.
This is the first thing I thought of. I wonder if they wouldn't "ovalize" on the bigger reels first fight? I couldn't see them standing up to say, a 9/0 with harness on. :(
The Newell Long Cast bushings just screwed in place. In the day, many knowledgeable guys fishing with the San Diego Fleet would have these in their arsenal when on a long range.
Easy to just replace bushings from the outside, and they were very durable and effective.
Not made for the larger bearing reels. Just for the smaller bushing models.
Alan and Mike gave me some of these since I ran out a couple of decades ago. When Carl passed on, that was the end of these.
Wish someone would make them again!
Best,
Fred
And here is what Carl used for those Fred:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#8578K416
They're a little costly, but should be a breeze for any machinist we have here to make us some.
Best,
Sal
Is this the same, Sal?
http://www.eplastics.com/Acetal_Delrin_Sheet
Best,
Fred
Fred,
I think the one Sal is showing is the delrin that also contains 13% Teflon, making it "slipperier" than standard delrin....
But I'm just guessing...😀
Brett
Thank you very much for pointing us to that information Robert. I learned a lot and need to get better acquainted with the SKF web site. They have very sophisticated material and have moved way past just milling solid plastics (you gotta read it Sal). Their plastic/metal composites would overcome the strength limitations of solid plastic (as discussed above) and opens up new avenues for dealing with lubrication and contamination.
A couple of other things hit me while shuffling through the SKF material. We tend to focus on getting the smoothest possible bearing surface, especially in casting reels. But, could a textured surface with lubricants trapped within the pockets actually work better? Also, reel bearings are always straight and the focus is on rigidity and alignment. But, could a spherical bearing that accommodates inherent lack of rigidity (flexing) and alignment be a better alternative?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on December 21, 2017, 07:04:38 PM
...could a spherical bearing that accommodates inherent lack of rigidity (flexing) and alignment be a better alternative?
I have always thought so. The idea of putting super-duper precision bearings in a rell whose frame likely wouldn't be of equivalent precision seemed counterintuitive. Have looked around some for the spherical bearings ABU used to use. Hard to find. Talked about it with Ulf who used to run UT Reel. He had a special frame aligning / straightening / rebrazing jig for the purpose and found it adequate. This is not as relevant with one-piece frames of course. Whatever. I ramble.
.
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 21, 2017, 06:29:40 PM
And here is what Carl used for those Fred:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#8578K416
They're a little costly, but should be a breeze for any machinist we have here to make us some.
...Hmmm dreaming of a Penn-bassadeur to throw light lures in saltwater.
Quote from: philaroman on December 20, 2017, 06:06:00 PM
never tried, but 13fishing seems to offer decent price:value & less obscene marketing ploys (albeit, I looked at rods more than reels)
Quote from: handi2 on December 20, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
They may work fine but we all know about marketing. Ive been inside plenty of 13C reels. Open the case next to a Pflueger reel and its the same molded casing.
yeah, but Pflueger is outsourcing to Korea, while 13fishing IS Korean -- probably Pflueger's OEM
Actually most all overseas made low profile reels look exactly the same in the frame molding.
Interesting topic indeed. This SKF PDF file is greek to me and way above my paygrade....
However I truly hope that this New "CZB" bearing is more than any "old" plastic-bushing. They Call it Space age polymer so there should be something to it. I find it hard that a Company can promote and hype such a Product if it is something that has been done decades ago.
They say it is self-lubricating too? How does that work......?
As it cures, they impregnate the plastic with molybdenum disulfide. Just call it moly. Moly is a solid and feels like graphite. It's very slippery. The atoms are in layers that tend to slide against each and slip away (exfoliate).
Moly has been used as an additive to grease for a long time. It is particularly useful for high speed open gears that tend to fling off liquid lubricants. One product I am familiar with dries and hardens on the gears and looks like the dried up old grease you might find in a reel. But because it is moly it lubricates and protects very well even when hardened.
Putting the solid moly inside plastic is a relatively new thing.
-steve
First some jargon translation:
Space age
after the advent of space exploration. I.e., after 1960
High tech
probably not made in somebody's basement and involving one or more persons with a degree in chemistry.
Polymer
a macro molecule. Multiples of the same molecule bond together, often in a chain arrangement. Examples of polymers include wool, rubber, plastics. In this case probably not wool.
copolymer
two different types of molecules form the polymer chain. Very common. BTW, delrin is a single polymer (AKA homoplolymer)
"Concept Zero"
Dunno. Taken literally : conceived nothing? Hey, don't blame me, blame the dictionary.
As Lee noted, bushings and plain bearings are the same thing. When used properly they can be plenty strong. Big machinery, and even your car engine run on plain bearings.
Bearings are rated for static/dynamic friction, pressure (radial and axial) and velocity. Metal solid bearings can do very well in all these categories with the aid of a lubricant. Skipping past metal for now...
Some plastics make excellent bearing materials, especially for light loads with high RPMs, and require little to no maintanence for the life of the bearing. As plastic bearing technology evolves, plastic is moving up into higher load applications traditionally reserved for solid metal or ball/roller bearings. The king of plastic bearing material is fiber impregnated PTFE, with the most common trade name being Rulon. It is not cheap, but not horribly expensive.
Looking at solid bearing materials - you should find a P rating ( max pressure per area, e.g, PSI), a V rating ( max velocity- e.g., surface feet per minute) and a PV rating (combo- less than the max of either). It is pretty easy to calculate for a given application if a bearing material will work with one big caveat- alignment. When the shaft is out of alignment with the bearing, the pressure will be applied to a smaller surface area on the bearing, possibly exceeding its rating.
On the other hand, ball bearings can be designed to tradeoff some amount of accuracy to help handle some misalignment. Once a premium product, they are widely available, standardized, and can be quite inexpensive.
For a properly designed reel, the better plastic bearings such as rulon will probably have a lower coefficient of friction than a lubricated bearing, and zero maintenance. So starting with lighter reels, it makes sense that solid plastic bearings start showing up, and work their way up into heavier models, the same as with any other class of machinery. Fiber filled PTFE would be a good candidate for mid tier on up in bass reels.
The only problem now is overcoming decades of marketing ball bearing count as a measure of a reel's quality ("now with 96 ball bearings!!!" )
I am not passing judgement on this particular reel. I don't know my bass reels. But quality solid plastic bearings is a good idea, if not exactly revolutionary. You can't make an anti-reverse bearing out of plastic, so I would venture to guess that this reel uses a typical metal anti-reverse bearing.
And hey, the world has been waiting for a safety orange bass reel. Less likely to get stepped on, and will match your favorite hunting cap ;D.