Hi,
Why do reel manufacturers continue to produce old models? Vehicle manufacturers keep on introducing new models as technology advances and dropping the old. Why does this not happen with reels? Granted, reels are not as high tech as cars, but still why does Penn still manufacturer the Jigmaster and Daiwa the LD50H? Do lots of people still use the Jigmaster in the States and if yes why? Is it that much cheaper than say the 555 GS?
Thanks
Leon
The true answer is $$$. These reels are still being sold and used, but have been upgraded slightly. For example, the new jigmasters comes with HT-100 drag washers, and I believe stainless steel part versus brass.
If you want a reliable work horse at a reasonable price, my first recommendation would be a jigmaster considering they are fishing with mono in the 15-30# class (although we have put 40# or even 50# shore casting off the cliffs in Hawaii).
Quote from: Bryan Young on July 13, 2011, 04:14:09 PM
....................
If you want a reliable work horse at a reasonable price, my first recommendation would be a jigmaster considering they are fishing with mono in the 15-30# class (although we have put 40# or even 50# shore casting off the cliffs in Hawaii).
The jigmaster is an old (52+ years in production) workhorse. It was designed right. There are many deckhands and anglers in southern California using them to catch school-sized tuna (20-30 pounds or 10-15 kilos) as well as smaller bottom fish. The bushings hardly ever wear out, a few of Alan's upgrades, and some minor maintenance on a reel that cost $60-70USD new builds a real keeper. I might even get another one. ;D
Rob
Another good example of vintage reels still in production are the Senator and Levelwind series from Penn. Although the larger sized Senators are no longer in production, the smaller sized ones are still in production. The newer GTI/GTO series have their gear train modelled after the Senator series geartrain because it stood the test of time very well.
Another vintage series of reels still in production is the SS series of spinning reels from Daiwa because of their simple and robust design.
It's also the same with the Daiwa Black Gold Spinners. I've had mine for 30+ years now and they are still manufactured and used today.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
It now makes sense. I suppose the US market is so big that if you have a reliable product that everyone knows it will continue selling. Its just that here in South Africa I can not remember when last I saw anyone fishing with a new jigmaster or the old Daiwa 50H reels. The BG spinning reels are still used and fairly popular, considering that you rarely see a spinning reel of the beach. I had a jigmaster some 20 odd years ago and it had HT100 washers. I still remember that I decided to replace them, without schematics and my friends had a good laugh at me as it took a while. The thing is, if you can still get one of those older generation reels here, they are not that cheap and for an equivalent price or slightly more you can buy a high speed, good casting reel, even an Omoto that won't swallow your line and crank in line quickly over the rocks.
All fair points, CapeFish, but I'm yet to see an Omoto that will stand the test of time.
In my experience, their design has been derivative and the materials of fair to middling quality.
All my workhorse reels are either Penn or Shimano, and all have seen a lot of action over many, many years.
I've got drawers filled with newer reels that are effectively irreparable due to bad design or low quality alloys etc.
Bryan's also right that dollars have a significant impact.
I maintain reels for a couple of guys who fish a handful of times a year and wouldn't even call themselves 'fishos'. That hasn't stopped them from purchasing $1000+ Stellas, though.
My view is that the best fisherman is the happiest one - regardless of gear.
PS Sounds like South Africa has some cracker fishing - love to see some pictures if you have 'em.
All the best, Justin
Capefish,
It all depends on what you're looking for and availability, I guess. We don't use high speed here for much of anything (sea bass, blackfish, fluke, blues, stripers, etc), so those fancy high speeders wouldn't serve my purpose as well as say, a "SENATOR" ;) ... my first born will be named Otto (just kidding... that would be mean.) Also, what year did HT-100 come out... didn't think they've been around 20 years?
PS- the only reel I like more than the jigmaster in that class is the Daiwa 50H (it can handle a lot of abuse)
Tile,
They don't make the 1/0 or 2/0 any more either :'( ... but I like the way you think (Senator fan)
Dom
i wish i could have been able to make the final decision on the penn baja special 113hn. i would have told them to simply narrow the penn 113h and the 114h and then bring back the narrow jigmasters and squidders. they could have saved so much money.........
Pen HT 100 is in their 1989, 89B Inst & Parts Manual (22years) how time flies!
The old school Ambassadeur series from Abu Garcia is still in production and usage. They are very popular for long distance casting because of their floating spool design. For these reels there are aftermarket parts available (frames, drag washers, bearings and magnet kits).
I think perhaps that Jigmaster/Senator type reels are not that well suited to our shore and offshore fishing and possiblly, Penn lost their presence here. So now people rather choose Japanese reels, mainly Shimano or Daiwa. For shore angling here a high speed reel is a great help, as is line capacity and casting ability and line swallowing with 0.45 or 0.40 lines is a big no-no. Ambasadeurs are limited in their line holding capacity and have always been very expensive here. Lure anglers and light tackle boat anglers might use them though.
Tile, yes we do have times of very good fishing and you can catch some enourmous skates and sharks from shore, as in 200kg! We do this with casting tackle, not stand up offshore tackle. So do the Namibians. Also along the more tropical coast line you can pick up big GT if you are lucky.
This has been a very interesting exchange on tackle use across the world I should have changed the topic! :) :) :)
Daiwa still makes the Sealine classic line of reels which is based on the Senator gear train. Their improvement is the one piece aluminium frame and sideplates. To me is an improvement on a design classic and the prospect that it will serve with excellence for many years.
Quote from: alantani on July 14, 2011, 05:42:08 AM
i wish i could have been able to make the final decision on the penn baja special 113hn. i would have told them to simply narrow the penn 113h and the 114h and then bring back the narrow jigmasters and squidders. they could have saved so much money.........
Help me to understand this. What is the objective of making them narrow?
Narrowing a reel like the 500 Jigmaster to a 501 gives you a little more cranking power.
If you're not that good with your thumb, It should also help keeping the line nice on the spool when retrieving.
Quote from: spottybastard on March 14, 2012, 08:01:48 PM
Narrowing a reel like the 500 Jigmaster to a 501 gives you a little more cranking power.
My impression was that cranking power was a function of handle length, gear ratio, and spool diameter (with line).
I still don't understand what the objective is, and how making a spool narrow accomplishes it.
The cranking power does not change when narrowing a reel.
The line lays down on a narrow spool better so less experienced anglers don't lock up the reel with a hump of line in the center, they cast better and with Spectra line the higher capacity of a standard width spool is not needed.
Spot on, Lee.
Narrow frames are also less likely to torque when under heavy drag pressure.
The jigmasters are also getting a new following with the growing popularity of Kayak fishing. They're tough reels and from what I've learned here, it's an advantage to have spool bushings when the reel might be getting dunked.
This should be a good example for Africa: think of a Jigmaster as a 1980 Hilux. In 2001, I bought a 2000 model Tacoma with 12,000 miles on it from a Toyota dealer as a certified used car. The damn thing had a bent frame! As for the Hilux (known here in the USA as a Toyota truck; no model designations back then), watch this Topgear UK video. You can't kill one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk
I always thought narrow spools meant less drag on the guides with line going out on a cast. I know for a fact it's easier to keep the line packed on the spool better with a narrow spool. Just my .02. And after working on a couple of spinning reels, guiding line and thumbing a spool is time well spent.
Tight Lines, Brendan.
First off, vintage reels are in demand because of thier simplicity to service, even by a novice like me. 2nd they were made in a time when quality really made a difference. In todays world most are shopping for the "most bang for your buck" and quality falls to a distant 2nd.
Talk to an old school guy like Dom or Sal and they'll tell you that function is more important than looks. Talk to a young lad and he'll tell you that it is always "form over function", that is just something that is called a "generation gap", and it is a huge gap indeed. I am an old school penn guy and the jigmaster is a reel that has outperformed any other reel ever produced to try to match it, it is also very easy to work on and after 50 years it still is a solid workhorse that cannot be beat by even a cheaply produced made in china reel at todays prices. Same as the old senators.
Sadly, today penn is not the proud USA company it once was and all but the international model are outsourced to China, but if Otto Henze were alive today he would put all of those China reel manufacturers out of business because he understood the meaning of quality.
BTW, Otto Henze was the founding father of penn reels, circa 1932....God bless him !!!
QuoteTalk to an old school guy like Dom or Sal and they'll tell you that function is more important than looks. Talk to a young lad and he'll tell you that it is always "form over function"
You are so right. Us old guys are more concerned with function than looks, while still appreciating good aesthetics when applied properly. It's very hard to find any of the younger guys who are not more concerned with the bling than the bang. Even if they don't catch a single fish, they still want to upgrade to something supposedly better, just because it looks good and it offers "bragging rights". For us, the bragging rights came with the fish caught, even if it was caught on a stick with string. For them, since they can't catch the fish, they brag about what they buy. As they tell me, "If you can't catch fish, better to look good doing it". As far as I'm concerned, if you can't catch fish, it doesn't matter what you look like, and it's worse if you've got the best equipment (because then there is nothing else to blame but yourself).
It's hard to understand how companies like Penn can't see the writing on the wall, when so many others are taking substantial market share from them by producing products based on what they initially designed and promoted for many years before any of these newer companies were born. Why did it take a Newell Co., or Jvariance, or Tiburon, Accurate, Avet, etc., to come up with improvements to Penn products when Penn could have more easily done that themselves (they already had the distribution network, manufacturing facilities, know-how, staff, designs, tooling, etc)? Even now, with Newell being "reborn" via Valley, Penn could have immediately come in and taken advantage of the gap that was created during the hiatus when Newell reels were not being produced and parts unavailable. Same with the Accurate situation. I did not think of Penn as being a super-large corporations that is typically too big to quickly adapt and take advantage of changes in market demand and competition, but it's sure is behaving that way. I like Penn products and 90% or my reels are Penns. I really hate seeing what appears to be happening to the company.
Don't misunderstand, I like the Senators and think they are great reels. With the exception of one Newell, those are the only reels I use for casting (and the Newell usually stays at home). When the company brings out a campaign to make a big deal about bringing back the large models, one has to wonder why they are going backwards. Can't anyone in the company come up with a different line that is significantly better, while still retaining the good traits as well as the right price points? Other companies seem to be able to do it. Methinks they should contract with guys like Alan, Sal, and others on this Forum, to help them design something totally different that will help them to once again stand out amongst the crowd. Seriously!
You make some good points Makule/Max
The generation gap is an interesting topic. I made the point about my nephew in a previous post - thinking that he needed the latest and greatest to chase kingfish. I'm 42 years old, so older than some and younger than others..what surprises me the most is what some of the younger generation are willing to spend on tackle. I had an old Silstar GXB for 15 years..it was the poor mans version of the Shimano bait runner of the time..it gave up in the end when the cast gear cracked. That was attached to a no name rod that together accounted for some good fish over the years.
The technical side of tackle has always interested me and this was really the motivator for me to look at more of the high end equipment available..my friend Darryl was the warehouse manager for Thompson walker (NZ distributor for Penn) for a number of years and I spent a fair amount of time in their warehouse with him servicing reels or pulling things apart. I like the Penn gear, all I ever wanted was an International but could not afford to buy one back then.
In regard to the point above, tackle manufactures need to smarten up...like all business things change. Don't get me wrong the principles don't or shouldn't but these days you have to be savvy. Fishing is big business and lots of people realize that and want a part of it - Without actually knowing, I would say that the amount of disposal income spent on tackle today is significantly higher as a percentage than 30-40-50 years ago. Sadly making a good quality product that does its job well and has good pedigree will not assure you of continued success. For many years, I along with many other people fished with handlines...very few do today. The younger generation all seem to have a rod and reel from an early age, their parents obviously have more money than ours did back then :). This continues though..it would be interesting to see what age groups spend the most amount of money on tackle? I'm guessing the age group has lowered over the years..
Look at some of the newer companies and what they are doing...right or wrong. Look at Jigging Master? I had no idea who they were...I did a bit of research and found lots of references to them on the internet (smart use of media).. after reading and watching (youtube) I started to understand what they were about. Their marketing was "smart", take a proven design, make a few changes, get on respected charters, catch good sized fish and put in on the internet...obviously not quite that simple...but you get the point....add a range of rods and accessories and you're good to go.
Years of pedigree required? no.. proven quality? not really..good design? yeah, twin dogs, long handle.. PRICE? - hmmm...(if we can make it popular, people will pay)... and they were right. I feel for Penn....but you cant stand still..
Just like the small block Chevy. They are simple, have standardized parts, and lots of after market stuff. This continues the longevity.
Woops I forgot one thing. Also low gear ratios on some of the reels. For many old school guys, and some applications lower gear ratio it an advantage. The Japanese reel company's have marked higher gear ratios. This is mostly sales/ marketing. Granted there are some applications were 6, 0r 7:1 is of value. Two speeds are great. But so is 2.8:1 for Grouper, or a old Penn 60, 65, to put your "OLD" Powerhouse transition on. Jigmaster started the Higher gear ratios at 4:1. Then Diawa Sealine, etc. The Jigmaster, and Penn level winds are lower gear reels, easy for captain and charter customers to use. And they are easy to repair. IMO.
Quote from: Makule on March 15, 2012, 08:28:12 AM
I really hate seeing what appears to be happening to the company.
Penn Reel company was extremely conservative when jumping on the "new and improved" bandwagon for years (sometimes new and improved isn't) but the new owners are not so set in their ways. Look at the new reels that Penn has come out with recently, I haven't used my FA25N yet but so far the new Fathom series of reel look like another good reel by Penn.
the new reels are the result of new ownership!
Quote from: Keta on March 15, 2012, 02:03:12 PM
Quote from: Makule on March 15, 2012, 08:28:12 AM
I really hate seeing what appears to be happening to the company.
Penn Reel company was extremely conservative when jumping on the "new and improved" bandwagon for years (sometimes new and improved isn't) but the new owners are not so set in their ways. Look at the new reels that Penn has come out with recently, I haven't used my FA25N yet but so far the new Fathom series of reel look like another good reel by Penn.
Yes, what you say is true also, and I thought about that as I wrote my previous comments. Still, what it reminded me of was Ford and GM who, resting on their laurels and not being appropriately concerned about the products being turned out by the likes of Toyota, Nissan, etc., lost their dominance in the market to the point where they became runners up to the upstarts and faced bankruptcy. Now, they are playing catch up to the other auto manufacturers, and even though they are attempting to come out with hybrid vehicles, more fuel efficient engines, etc., with new leadership, the other companies have been working on those technologies since years ago and already have excellent technology and products.
It is really sad that the two companies who essentially controlled the entire US auto market at one time, lost so much in a relatively short period (I like, and drive, a Chevy). While the consequences may seem somewhat limited at first glance, think about the overall impact to the US economy. Can Ford and GM and Penn once again become the top dogs in their respective fields? Perhaps, but it will be extremely difficult if not impossible. What they failed to do was to remember a fundamental basic of business, namely, competition. They acted like giant monopolies, and fell to the tiny Davids.
What I suggested earlier was that if Penn does not want to become another GM and end up having to do the bankruptcy thing, they should corral all of the Davids in the industry that are taking away market share and make them part of their company. Doing that, I believe, will give them a fighting chance against the likes of Shimano so that they will not continue to fall further and further behind, and lose even greater market share. For the consumer, it will be a great thing as the increased competition will result in much better products being produced.
Hopefully the new owners will continue making the good "old" gear and modern reels.
Penn still has a lot going for it ... I bought Penn equipment because I knew I could find parts & service anywhere that I would be fishing. I think the Penn Baja - 113HN is an awesome reel - very capable, also very sharp design. I think Penn should modernize their line with a 3/0, 2/0, and 1/0 similiar in design to the Baja Special (maybe focus a little on weight reduction in the smaller sizes). If wishes were fishes ...
You guys are right on about the generation gap... I'm 36 y/o in a few hours (3/16). Before I got on this site, and started working on all of my reels I went for the high tech stuff like calcutta te's, duel, etc. I have since realized that I can turn my 12lb's of drag to 25 lbs. with some TLC, elbow grease, and good old fashion ingenuity from some hard core reel guys (you guys).
There's nothing like fishing a 50 year old reel, and landing a solid fish in front of your crew to show 'em how it's done ;)
PS- They still make the 12/0 and 14/0 in the USA, at least that's what I've been told by some real reliable sources.
Best of luck,
Dom
Happy birthday bro, hope you have a great day. Wow! 36. At 36 I didn't need a reel to catch fish, I used to dive and catch' em with my bare hands ;D.
Happy birthday Dom!
And straight into St Patrick's the following day - well timed sir! ;) ;D
All the best and many happy returns mate, Justin
Hey Justin, remind Sal why he didn't really use a reel... they weren't invented yet when he was 36! ;D
Thanks for the birthday wishes guys!
Hope y'all have a happy and safe St. Patty's Day
Dom
yeah, happy birthday. i'm sending out the gear sleeves.
Quote from: broadway on March 16, 2012, 03:33:25 AM
Hey Justin, remind Sal why he didn't really use a reel... they weren't invented yet when he was 36! ;D
Thanks for the birthday wishes guys!
Hope y'all have a happy and safe St. Patty's Day
Dom
Good one Justin. Dom when I was 36 I wasn't trolling for fish. I had more success trolling for alternate species. dominick
Having a line of reels built on the technology and basis of the 113HN would be pretty slick. Can you imagine how a 2/0 or 3/0 size would cast?
Happy birthday Dom and Wallace! I just turned 61 myself.
its not my birthday rob,i was just pullin the chain.
and im not having anymore,when i kick my toe now it hurts.
Happy Birthday Rob... like a fine wine you just get better with age!
Thanks Alan... as soon as I get 'em I'll send out the dues.
Dom
Quote from: broadway on March 16, 2012, 04:45:30 PM
Happy Birthday Rob... like a fine wine you just get better with age!
Dom
And then it turns into vinegar ;D
But not you of course Rob, happy birthday bud and wishing many many more. Sal
Happy birthday Rob - hope it was a great day.
Oops. The post digressed from vintage reels to vintage reel users. ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 16, 2012, 04:57:22 PM
Quote from: broadway on March 16, 2012, 04:45:30 PM
Happy Birthday Rob... like a fine wine you just get better with age!
Dom
And then it turns into vinegar ;D
The best vinegar you'll ever have! :D :D
Thanks, Dom, Sal, and Justin.
And Wallace gets me again. ::)
Coming back to the original topic :)
As a youngster, my first reel was a Penn 49 narrow spool. Still own it. Caught some great fish with it. Need a new handle for it. There are still some older folk using this reel from our(South African) shores. As a matter of fact, they swear by it and do not want to switch to newer models.
My second reel was a Penn 500 jigmaster. I own two now :) I think I'll give it a spin some time soon :)
My third reel was the Penn 555 GS. Bit on the big side. Still got the job done.
Then Penn went "quiet". No more new designs available in RSA, except for the boat reels. And as most of my friends, I also, switched to the Shimano and Daiwa brand. My favourite being the sl30sh. Small, robust and casts a mile. My Tor30, with some "pimping", my go to shark reel.
Then Penn released their Torque range in South Africa. This caused quite a stir, but the price tag was/is still a major factor.
Arrive the Penn Fathom. You won't believe it. This reel was released on our shores and was sold out within a week or two. We had to pre-order the Fathom if you really wanted one. Some had a few hiccups with the AR bearing rusting, but Penn sorted that out.
Viva Penn.
Quote from: BonitaBch on March 15, 2012, 07:08:49 PM
Penn still has a lot going for it ... I bought Penn equipment because I knew I could find parts & service anywhere that I would be fishing. I think the Penn Baja - 113HN is an awesome reel - very capable, also very sharp design. I think Penn should modernize their line with a 3/0, 2/0, and 1/0 similiar in design to the Baja Special (maybe focus a little on weight reduction in the smaller sizes). If wishes were fishes ...
I totally agree! The Baja fixed all that was wanting in the 113h. The new Torques are nice but would be nicer if those dogs could bark.