Hey guys, so I'm working on a 50WLRS. Put it back together and here's what I'm experiencing -- With zero preset, the spool is rubbing against the gear assembly in the right side plate. I coated the click ring with grease to see if I could pinpoint where the contact is and when I opened it back up, the head of the bolt on the main gear shaft had scraped all of the grease off.
But when I add some preset to the reel, the spool shifts enough to give me clearance and everything spins normal. However, I then feel like I have way more drag than I should. I've spent more than a few hours playing with various washer configurations, shims, etc. and where I ended it last night was with a two super thin shims on the belleville stack. This gave me excellent freespool and no clearance issues. BUT, even with zero preset if I push the drag to Strike, the drag is incredibly high.
I'm now at a loss. I'm confident that my bellevilles are correct, I've got the small thrust washer at the bottom of that stack and the flat washer at the top, just like the schematics show. Everything seems to be just as it should be.
Now what?
What is the configuration of the Bellville washers?
josa1
Make sure the high speed and low speed gears are in correctly. Sometimes the bellville arrangement in the schematic is not right for the reel. Ive seen that a few times with the Tiagra.
Quote from: josa1 on March 15, 2018, 02:19:28 PM
What is the configuration of the Bellville washers?
josa1
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Quote from: handi2 on March 15, 2018, 02:28:51 PM
Make sure the high speed and low speed gears are in correctly. Sometimes the bellville arrangement in the schematic is not right for the reel. Ive seen that a few times with the Tiagra.
I've considered that the gears might not be in right and I've tried a few variations. Each gear has circular recesses on both sides. But one recess is deeper than the other, on both gears. How should they go? Deep recess facing the spool or facing the handle?
Also, here's some info provided by Shimano about the Tiagras.
Quote from: josa1 on March 15, 2018, 02:48:08 PM
Also, here's some info provided by Shimano about the Tiagras.
thanks. As far as I can tell the only thing I did wrong, according to that info, is that I took apart the two-speed mechanism. But I've done it on plenty of reels. For some reason, this reel is being a pain.
Hi coores14,
Certainly can be frustrating.
Here's the schematic from Mike's in case you don't have it.
https://www.mikesreelrepair.com/content/schematics/Shimano_Tiagra_TI50WLRSA_Schematic.pdf
As I recall, the assembly goes something like this....
Reassemble the drive shaft with all components, i.e. cross shaft and springs, in place.
After the drive shaft complete, install the high speed (bigger) gear so that the flat side is against the sleeve that the drive shaft is in. The recess in the gear should be pointed towards the low speed gear. The cross shaft should be lined up precisely with the slots in the high speed gear.
Install the nylon? spacer.
Install the low speed gear. The recess in the low speed gear faces towards the high speed gear and accepts and holds in place the the nylon spacer.
Install the plastic? cap with the tabs on the cap touching the left handed thread retaining nut.
I usually assemble of these components along with the shifting mechanism and test it before I put the right side plate onto the frame.
Good luck! If you have any problem, just let me know.
josa1
Quote from: josa1 on March 15, 2018, 04:05:25 PM
Hi coores14,
Certainly can be frustrating.
Here's the schematic from Mike's in case you don't have it.
https://www.mikesreelrepair.com/content/schematics/Shimano_Tiagra_TI50WLRSA_Schematic.pdf
As I recall, the assembly goes something like this....
Reassemble the drive shaft with all components, i.e. cross shaft and springs, in place.
After the drive shaft complete, install the high speed (bigger) gear so that the flat side is against the sleeve that the drive shaft is in. The recess in the gear should be pointed towards the low speed gear. The cross shaft should be lined up precisely with the slots in the high speed gear.
Install the nylon? spacer.
Install the low speed gear. The recess in the low speed gear faces towards the high speed gear and accepts and holds in place the the nylon spacer.
Install the plastic? cap with the tabs on the cap touching the left handed thread retaining nut.
I usually assemble of these components along with the shifting mechanism and test it before I put the right side plate onto the frame.
Good luck! If you have any problem, just let me know.
josa1
Thanks. I've been using the schematic and that's how I know I'm not missing anything.
I didn't take the gear assembly apart to the point of removing that retaining nut and c-clip. I have only removed the gears and nylon spacers from the shaft. But your description helps and I will give that a shot when I get home tonight. There's a chance I've already tried it that way, but I honestly can't remember.
As of right now, I'm happy with how it's spinning and how it all feels, but it's the preset that is bothering me. The drag goes from zero to a LOT before I get to Strike. The cam appears to be equal on both sides, so I don't see how that could be causing any issues.
Seems that the only thing that would cause that would be the cam/preset assembly is not totally seated in the side plate. But, if the drag goes to 0 and has free spool that problem doesn't seem possible.
I think you have the best idea of just looking to see how the gear stack is currently set up.
Maybe, while you've got the reel open, move the lever back and forth and see how much the pinion bearing moves. A lot as you move the lever? Seems it would have to be as the reel almost locks up as you describe. I seem to remember that I would still have very little drag with the pre set back off and the lever in the strike position.
It's too bad that the 50W LRSA post on this site has no pictures. Would probably help you a lot.
josa1
Quote from: josa1 on March 15, 2018, 05:14:00 PM
Seems that the only thing that would cause that would be the cam/preset assembly is not totally seated in the side plate. But, if the drag goes to 0 and has free spool that problem doesn't seem possible.
I think you have the best idea of just looking to see how the gear stack is currently set up.
Maybe, while you've got the reel open, move the lever back and forth and see how much the pinion bearing moves. A lot as you move the lever? Seems it would have to be as the reel almost locks up as you describe. I seem to remember that I would still have very little drag with the pre set back off and the lever in the strike position.
It's too bad that the 50W LRSA post on this site has no pictures. Would probably help you a lot.
josa1
from what I can recall, I don't think the bearing moves all that much when adjusting the drag lever. When dialing in the preset, yes, I definitely see it getting pushed out. But, I'll double check it again when I take it apart tonight....for the 73rd time. >:(
Just saw this now.
All good advice. As far as the 2-speed mech goes, make sure the deeper recesses on the gears are aligned towards one another/the nylon spacer.
Make sure your Bellevilles are arranged (())(())|, and make sure there is a Teflon washer under the cam parts, and that Tue cam pins align/full seat into the indents in the cam, and it's fully seated in the side plate, before I stalling the lever (which should be in freespool position), and the preset knob. I think you just need to turn the cam 180deg, and reinstall to fix your problem. Yes, the ramp is the same on each side, but the lever does not have 180 degrees of travel, so it must be lined up correctly. Being 180deg off will mean the lever travel rotates the cam pins along the cam ramp differently causing a steep curve, then a bump to freespool.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 15, 2018, 06:24:53 PM
Just saw this now.
All good advice. As far as the 2-speed mech goes, make sure the deeper recesses on the gears are aligned towards one another/the nylon spacer.
Make sure your Bellevilles are arranged (())(())|, and make sure there is a Teflon washer under the cam parts, and that Tue cam pins align/full seat into the indents in the cam, and it's fully seated in the side plate, before I stalling the lever (which should be in freespool position), and the preset knob. I think you just need to turn the cam 180deg, and reinstall to fix your problem. Yes, the ramp is the same on each side, but the lever does not have 180 degrees of travel, so it must be lined up correctly. Being 180deg off will mean the lever travel rotates the cam pins along the cam ramp differently causing a steep curve, then a bump to freespool.
John
awesome. thank you. I'm definitely going to recheck the recesses in the gears. I do have the teflon washer in place. I'll make extra sure everything is seated well in the cam and side plate. I did rotate the cam 180 degrees at one point last night, but there were other variables at play that trumped that one at the time. I'll give all of it a shot and see what happens! thanks for the help. I'll report back.
here's an interesting thought -- what about the spool "spreading" due to heavy loads of braid being piled on over and over? Somebody mentioned to me that they've seen spools crack and what not due to this and they suspect that's my issue.
I had never heard of that, but it also got me thinking -- when taking this reel apart, I had a stuck spool bearing. As I often do with stuck metal parts, I put the whole thing in the freezer for a while. Worked like a charm and the bearing came right out. BUT, is it possible that the temp change caused the metal to move enough that it only exacerbated this spool "spread" issue?
I used the same reel that you're working on, Shimano Tiagra 50W LRSA, for a kite reel for maybe 6 years. It was loaded with 200 pound spectra, under high tension, right to the brim. I had a 50' section of 200 pound mono attached to the spectra.
Caught several fish weighing over 200 pounds on this reel. Put it in low gear and just ground away when the fish were close to the boat.
When not in use, the reel with the line under high tension sat in the rod racks with the sun beating on it. Temperature was always above 80 degrees in the day time.
There was never indication that the spool was over stressed in any way. Always worked perfectly.
Only reason I changed, wanted a reel that would hold more line. I now fish an AVET 80 with 900+ yards of 200 pound spectra on it.
josa1
Another thought came to mind,,,,Is it possible that the little "tang" on the preset program dial is not seated properly in the preset adjustment screw. If not that would push the spool to the left side of the reel frame. Just another thing to take a look at.
josa1
so, just my luck and the customer called yesterday afternoon and was inquiring about the reel because the next few days are looking perfect for swordfishing and he has some charters booked.
As soon as I got home from work I dove in. Took it apart again, oriented the gear recesses the way y'all described, went through the bellevilles twice, removed the two little shims that I installed, flipped the cam 180 degrees, made sure everything was seated correctly, and put it all back together.
I'd say the issue improved, but isn't gone. In freespool and zero preset, I still get some internal contact as the spool spins, but at least it spins. Add some preset and everything seems to be right. I feel like I may have improved the drag "ramp" a bit, so that's good.
The main thing I noticed about this spool clearance issue is this -- it very much does it if the reel is tilted one way but not the other. Also, there's the tiniest bit of play in the entire handle/gear assembly once everything is put together and if I pull on the whole thing (away from the reel) all is good. If I push the on the whole assembly (to the left, towards the right side plate) the interference starts again.
Bottom line, I gave it to the customer and told him to fish it and give me some feedback. He may never experience the issue because nobody fishes with zero preset, especially for swordfish, so as long as he's got some dialed in he should be fine.
Overall quite frustrating and it'll keep me up at night trying to figure out where the problem is. Would well worn/flattened bellevilles cause anything like this?
Yes, flattened Bellevilles could cause spool clearance issues.
I always keep a stock of new Bellevilles avail for to Tiagras, and Internationals 50-130size. If you have a new set you can measure new vs. Old stack height. This latest description sounds like something from your headplate assembly (2 speed assembly, or clicker retainer?) was contacting the spool. Examining freshly displaced grease on the ratchet will tell you which. The little shaft play on drive shaft is nirmal, but you could shim to remove it (either on under gear stack, or under handle), but when I shim here I always check gear mesh by examining fresh grease displacement when preset is set to appropriate range, and lever moves throughout ranhe in low and high speed.
You can also note if spool rubbing changes when shifting gears.
Really it's just a matter of getting the shimming, spacing, Belleville arrangment/stack height correct to achieve good freespool, correct range, proper gear mesh, clearance, and proper clicker function.
If the reel comes back to you, order new shims, and Bellevilles and play around with spacing until it is functioning perfect.
Some of this stuff is difficult for me to diagnose based on your descriptions, or photos, having the reel in hand or actual measurements of this reel's stack verses new would help greatly.
Don't get too discouraged, once you go through the final adjustment process in a lever drag reel, it gets alot easier to adjust.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 16, 2018, 07:47:08 PM
Yes, flattened Bellevilles could cause spool clearance issues.
I always keep a stock of new Bellevilles avail for to Tiagras, and Internationals 50-130size. If you have a new set you can measure new vs. Old stack height. This latest description sounds like something from your headplate assembly (2 speed assembly, or clicker retainer?) was contacting the spool. Examining freshly displaced grease on the ratchet will tell you which. The little shaft play on drive shaft is nirmal, but you could shim to remove it (either on under gear stack, or under handle), but when I shim here I always check gear mesh by examining fresh grease displacement when preset is set to appropriate range, and lever moves throughout ranhe in low and high speed.
You can also note if spool rubbing changes when shifting gears.
Really it's just a matter of getting the shimming, spacing, Belleville arrangment/stack height correct to achieve good freespool, correct range, proper gear mesh, clearance, and proper clicker function.
If the reel comes back to you, order new shims, and Bellevilles and play around with spacing until it is functioning perfect.
Some of this stuff is difficult for me to diagnose based on your descriptions, or photos, having the reel in hand or actual measurements of this reel's stack verses new would help greatly.
Don't get too discouraged, once you go through the final adjustment process in a lever drag reel, it gets alot easier to adjust.
John
thanks.
I did the grease thing early in my diagnosis and it was coming from the gear stack. It was being scraped off the click plate by the bolt head at the end of the stack.
No issues changing gears. The issue I had with shimming the entire gear assembly was that it needed to be shimmed away from the spool and adding a shim under the gear stack would only have pushed it closer to the spool. Same at the handle. The play would've disappeared, but it would've only made the clearance worse inside.
To me, the bellevilles didn't appear to have the gap that I expect when I put them opposing each other. These ones seemed too flat.
Sadly, this ain't my first rodeo on repairing reels. I do it "on the side" for friends/captains quite often. But every once in a while there's always that one reel that just wants to be a royal pain in the behind. This one was one of them. I can usually count on it being a Penn Conquer spinner or some Accurate lever drags, rarely a Tiagra.
again, thanks for all of the tips. I told him that I eventually want to change the bellevilles and he needs a new drag disc. So hopefully I'll get it back and be able to make it right.