Hi Guys,
I recently began having problems with the drags slipping on several of my Daiwa SV103 freshwater baitcasting reels while fishing during freezing temperatures. This is the first time I'm using these reels under freezing temperatures.
The drags are slipping as though the drag star is completely backed off. Adjusting the drag star makes no difference in drag tension. The reels have never been serviced as they are relatively new and factory stock. The reels come factory equipped with carbon fiber washers.
Just a few notes: the A/R bearings are functioning correctly and the line is not slipping on the spool, so those are not the issue. I should also note that ALL the drags functioned correctly later in the day as air temperatures warmed up above freezing.
I initially assumed the factory grease was the culprit, so as an experiment I removed and cleaned the grease from the drag stack on only one reel. I reassembled the drag stack (DRY) and on my following trip I had the same issue, so apparently the factory grease was not the issue (or so I don't think).
I could be wrong, but I'm thinking moisture is somehow getting trapped inside the drag stack and freezing under extremely cold conditions. This issue has me baffled, so I look forward to any suggestions in helping me resolve it.
Thanks,
Sal
I had quantum spinning reels do this and it was the antireverse bearing
this one has me baffled. conceivably, hot weather might make the grease more slippery, cold weather less so. that's just the opposite of what you are seeing. i dunno...... :-\
a) tolerance :( issue: parts from different "wrong" materials shrink from cold, at drastically different rates
b) "routine" :) issue: something about your winter storing/transporting routine (moving reels between cold/dry & warm/moist) is condensing water somewhere unwanted
c) something else ???
Try flushing the ar bearing with solvent to completely de-grease - then just a single drop of CorrosionX oil. Let us know how it goes. A lot of ar bearings don't like too much lube particularly grease. Oil in cold weather gets thicker (more like grease) it could be a problem :-\
It'd be interesting to experiment to find out if it fails in just cold, or does it have to be cold + wet.
Are you sure stock is carbon fiber, or the hard slick carbon?
Dawn
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on December 12, 2018, 10:19:45 PM
Try flushing the ar bearing with solvent to completely de-grease - then just a single drop of CorrosionX oil. Let us know how it goes. A lot of ar bearings don't like too much lube particularly grease. Oil in cold weather gets thicker (more like grease) it could be a problem :-\
Quote from: sharkman on December 12, 2018, 04:44:50 PM
I had quantum spinning reels do this and it was the antireverse bearing
Guys, thanks for your suggestions, but as I already mentioned the A/R bearings are functioning properly.... the issue is the drag stacks.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 12, 2018, 11:05:35 PM
It'd be interesting to experiment to find out if it fails in just cold, or does it have to be cold + wet.
On two consecutive trips (before and after I cleaned the drag stack) the reel failed under
just cold conditions.... not cold + wet.
Quote from: Dawn on December 12, 2018, 11:47:11 PM
Are you sure stock is carbon fiber, or the hard slick carbon?
Dawn, I'm not sure what the difference is. How do you tell them apart? Is one more susceptible than the other under freezing temps?
Please take it apart and take closeup photos and post here. Dominick
Just a thought, but is there any chance the pinion isn't reengaging with the shaft pin properly, eg some frozen moisture on the spool shaft?
Cheers, Justin
Something similar was discussed a while ago, but don't remember who it was.
He mentioned grease carbon fiber washers didn't do for him in cold climate, but Dawn's Smoothies did great, he used those dry.
Dawn, might still have those in stock.
Sal
Cal's purplr is designed for cold temps amd may be a good optiom here as well.
John
I've used Cals purple/normal under hot and cold conditions - didn't see any real difference :-\ More importantly I've never had a cf drag stack behave radically differently hot to cold or vice versa. Now if it gets wet - as in a dunking - that's different.
When you say the ar bearing is operating normaly - how do you know?
??? I am lost , what does the ar bearing got to do with slipping drags ? Would the handle go into knuckle busting mode if the ar is slipping ?
Just trying understand how this works. Joe
Carbon fiber has a weave, like a fabric. Hard carbon looks like pencil lead, no texture.
Quote from: Dawn on December 13, 2018, 02:40:56 PM
Carbon fiber has a weave, like a fabric. Hard carbon looks like pencil lead, no texture.
hey, shouldn't you be packing for someplace exotic like hawaii, or tahiti, or bora bora? you work too hard, young lady! you've earned yourself a nice vacation!!!!!!
Quote from: Dominick on December 13, 2018, 12:17:38 AM
Please take it apart and take closeup photos and post here. Dominick
The drive shaft washer is the only
non-carbon fiber washer from the set of (4) four washers.
(https://i.imgur.com/BTARscu.jpg)
The other (3) three washers which appear to be carbon fiber (to me) look like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/D7lAuaa.jpg)
Aqua 71. Are you 100% sure that the reel is tripping back into gear when its got cold ? There is normally a slight click or clunk as you go to wind in.
Just noticed on the stripdown of a similar reel that the owner had to modify part of the trip mechanism to make it work properly. Could the cold be freezing this mechanism temporally .I reserve the right to be completly wrong 😊
Quote from: richard on December 13, 2018, 06:53:04 PM
Aqua 71. Are you 100% sure that the reel is tripping back into gear when its got cold ? There is normally a slight click or clunk as you go to wind in.
Just noticed on the stripdown of a similar reel that the owner had to modify part of the trip mechanism to make it work properly. Could the cold be freezing this mechanism temporally .I reserve the right to be completly wrong 😊
Yes, the reel is absolutely positively 100% tripping back into gear!
After seeing the photos I am absolutely stumped. There is no obvious reason for the slippage. Keep working on getting to the bottom of the problem. Maybe someone will come up with an answer. Dominick
This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?
If this (http://www.daiwa.com/us/service/manuals/image/baitcasting/SV103HL-103XSL.pdf) is the right schematic one of your carbon fiber washers should be different from the other two. Did you mix them up? Not sure how this would affect function. The drive shaft washer functions as a thrust bearing.
Quote from: Gfish on December 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?
Gfish, you might have the answer. If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags. The drags look dry in the photos. Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice. I to find this interesting. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on December 13, 2018, 07:42:45 PM
Quote from: Gfish on December 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?
Gfish, you might have the answer. If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags. The drags look dry in the photos. Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice. I to find this interesting. Dominick
That's why I asked if it happened when the reel was cold + wet, but was told that it did the same when dry so I dropped that line of questioning.
Assuming the handle is not going backwards, the anti-reverse slipping cannot be the issue. And the schematic for the SV103HL-103XSL shows a clutch dog as well. If the drag is not tightened until the reel is exposed to the cold, it is possible that the AR bearing or adjacent part is frozen to the shaft and the clamping load is not transferred until the reel warms up. Easy enough to test by setting the drag before exposure to cold. If it now holds the drag after froze- this is the problem.
Drag disks seem to be an unlikely culprit- if the drag pressure is lost or resumes gradually, than this is a strong indication that the drag disks are the culprit. Again by setting the drag in advance and testing as the reel gets colder and then warmer, if the slipping comes and goes all at once, it makes the drag stack a much less likely candidate. Greased drag surface failures due to temp changes should be gradual and not 100%. BTW, removing visible grease still leaves a coating that will affect friction. I would expect that greaseless has a better chance of locking up vs slipping, as any water can get deeper into all the little crevices before freezing.
Line slipping on the the spool- weirdly enough, gel spun actually expands as it gets cold, increasing the chance of a line slip. But if you are experiencing zero drag, you would see that the spool is not turning at all (a little piece of tape on the spool side wil help as a visual aid) while the line turns. It is easy to get visually fooled when all the line is turning in a chunk- it really looks like the spool is turning. Probably (not definitely), the slipping should come and go gradually with temp changes.
Which leaves us with something not going fully into gear when you flip the lever. Lots of parts involved here, but something that would allow it to flex, but not break when frozen is the best guess. If the slipping goes directly between zero and 100% all at once, this one gets my vote.
The trickiest problems for me come when I make an observation that is mostly correct, but keeps me from following the evidence. If you haven't done so yet, it might be worthwhile to throw out any conclusions and walk through the symptoms.
For example, when you see that the AR bearing is working fine, how do you know it is working fine when the reel is frozen and not working properly? And when the reel is going in and out of gear when frozen, just because there is a "thunk" and the the bar pops up, it does not mean that the reel is completely in gear. How certain should we be that the gears are actually fully engaged inside a frozen reel without an x-ray?
I think that you might be able to narrow down by using your freezer and observing if the symptoms come and go all at once, and if the problem shows up during freezing while in gear, but before you put the reel in free spool. Each possible mechanical problem should have slightly different symptoms.
Hope this helps,
-J
Quote from: Gfish on December 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?
Absolutely not. The drags are slipping before I even take my first cast. I took one of the reels apart and removed the grease from the drag stack (pictured) and reassembled the drag stack DRY (because I assumed the factory grease was the culprit). I also made sure there was no moisture anywhere inside the reel before putting it back together. On my following trip the drag on that reel slipped (just like initially) before I even took a cast, so there's zero water getting in there.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 13, 2018, 07:39:10 PM
If http://www.daiwa.com/us/service/manuals/image/baitcasting/SV103HL-103XSL.pdf (http://this) is the right schematic one of your carbon fiber washers should be different from the other two. Did you mix them up? Not sure how this would affect function. The drive shaft washer functions as a thrust bearing.
That's correct, one of the washers is different than the other two, and no, I didn't mix them up although I doubt that would make a difference.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 13, 2018, 07:39:10 PM
If http://www.daiwa.com/us/service/manuals/image/baitcasting/SV103HL-103XSL.pdf (http://this) is the right schematic one of your carbon fiber washers should be different from the other two. Did you mix them up? Not sure how this would affect function. The drive shaft washer functions as a thrust bearing.
I would double check , Have ran into this with not thick enough drag washer and a keyed washer bottom out with a gap between the two.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 13, 2018, 07:45:28 PM
Quote from: Dominick on December 13, 2018, 07:42:45 PM
Quote from: Gfish on December 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?
Gfish, you might have the answer. If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags. The drags look dry in the photos. Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice. I to find this interesting. Dominick
That's why I asked if it happened when the reel was cold + wet, but was told that it did the same when dry so I dropped that line of questioning.
Yeah, my idea was stolen outta your and philaroman's posts, Sid.
Kinda sounds like the low temps. are condensing somethin on the drag stack and not allowing it to compress, even though feels like it is...?
Quote from: Gfish on December 13, 2018, 09:53:51 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on December 13, 2018, 07:45:28 PM
Quote from: Dominick on December 13, 2018, 07:42:45 PM
Quote from: Gfish on December 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM
This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?
Gfish, you might have the answer. If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags. The drags look dry in the photos. Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice. I to find this interesting. Dominick
That's why I asked if it happened when the reel was cold + wet, but was told that it did the same when dry so I dropped that line of questioning.
Yeah, my idea was stolen outta your and philaroman's posts, Sid.
Kinda sounds like the low temps. are condensing somethin on the drag stack and not allowing it to compress, even though feels like it is...?
I bet it turns out to be some mechanical error, this isn't the first fishing reel to be used in below freezing temperatures.....
Quote from: sdlehr on December 13, 2018, 10:07:56 PMI bet it turns out to be some mechanical error, this isn't the first fishing reel to be used in below freezing temperatures.....
I think you're 100% correct. I've fished under freezing conditions for decades and I have NEVER experienced this type of an issue. At this point I'm very confident I've eliminated all the possible causes with the obvious exception of ONE. Unfortunately that ONE cause has me baffled. In any event, please keep the suggestions coming. Thanks.
Sal
Sorry to be a pest, but are you absolutely positive the line is not slipping on the spool? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on December 14, 2018, 04:41:05 AM
Sorry to be a pest, but are you absolutely positive the line is not slipping on the spool? Sometimes it is hard to tell.
-steve
No worries, you're not being a pest. I'm absolutely positively 100% sure the line is not slipping.
I can't believe the drag would slip when it got cold like the drag was backed all the way off. When it's freezing have you tried cranking the drag down then pull some line out to warm up the drag a few times? Does that solve the issue? Do you store them out of gear? Is the pinion frozen open so that it won't engage when you turn the handle until it warms up?
I would like to see photos of how your drag stack is put together, good luck, cheers Don.
Aqua 71
Could the spool spindle be slipping inside the spool?
I assume steel spindle and aluminium spool have different expansion rates and that the spindle is a tight interference fit when manufactured.
The rest of the reel may be fine ,just that the spindle turns without gripping the spool when cold and expands a fraction when warm?
Quote from: richard on December 14, 2018, 10:12:16 PM
Could the spool spindle be slipping inside the spool?
yeah, maybe........ :-\
aqua71,
I've encountered your issue with several customers' reels over the years. Providing everything else is functioning properly, the issue you're experiencing is likely due to contaminated drag washers.
The quick and easy solution is to start by replacing one reel with a set of c-tex washers to see if it resolves the problem, but if you feel like tinkering and want to confirm the washers are contaminated I suggest the following:
1) Take a small shallow pan and spread all the drag washers throughout. Spray them liberally with brake cleaner and let them soak for 15 minutes or more.
2) Use a stiff brush to remove any residues from both sides of the washers while they're still submerged in the brake fluid and let them soak for another 15 minutes.
3) Remove the washers from the pan and discard the dirty brake fluid.
4) Clean and dry the pan then repeat the steps above.
5) After completing the second treatment place all the washers on a lint free towel and let them thoroughly air dry.
6) Apply a very light coat of Cal's or Shimano drag grease and reassemble the reel.
You may need to adjust the length of time the washers soak or the number of cleaning cycles depending on how badly the washers are contaminated. The key as always is to experiment, but that formula is what has worked for me in the past.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Quote from: richard on December 14, 2018, 10:12:16 PM
Aqua 71
Could the spool spindle be slipping inside the spool?
I assume steel spindle and aluminium spool have different expansion rates and that the spindle is a tight interference fit when manufactured.
The rest of the reel may be fine ,just that the spindle turns without gripping the spool when cold and expands a fraction when warm?
This is an excellent suggestion. I've serviced thousands of reels and have only run into this issue twice, so although it's rare, it's possibility that should not be overlooked.
Quote from: Jighead61 on December 14, 2018, 11:39:49 PM
aqua71,
I've encountered your issue with several customers' reels over the years. Providing everything else is functioning properly, the issue you're experiencing is likely due to contaminated drag washers.
The quick and easy solution is to start by replacing one reel with a set of c-tex washers to see if it resolves the problem, but if you feel like tinkering and want to confirm the washers are contaminated I suggest the following:
1) Take a small shallow pan and spread all the drag washers throughout. Spray them liberally with brake cleaner and let them soak for 15 minutes or more.
2) Use a stiff brush to remove any residues from both sides of the washers while they're still submerged in the brake fluid and let them soak for another 15 minutes.
3) Remove the washers from the pan and discard the dirty brake fluid.
4) Clean and dry the pan then repeat the steps above.
5) After completing the second treatment place all the washers on a lint free towel and let them thoroughly air dry.
6) Apply a very light coat of Cal's or Shimano drag grease and reassemble the reel.
You may need to adjust the length of time the washers soak or the number of cleaning cycles depending on how badly the washers are contaminated. The key as always is to experiment, but that formula is what has worked for me in the past.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Thanks for the suggestion and the tutorial. I'll pick up some brake cleaner today and give the drag washers a thorough cleaning.
Quote from: aqua71 on December 15, 2018, 05:06:46 PM
Quote from: Jighead61 on December 14, 2018, 11:39:49 PM
aqua71,
I've encountered your issue with several customers' reels over the years. Providing everything else is functioning properly, the issue you're experiencing is likely due to contaminated drag washers.
The quick and easy solution is to start by replacing one reel with a set of c-tex washers to see if it resolves the problem, but if you feel like tinkering and want to confirm the washers are contaminated I suggest the following:
1) Take a small shallow pan and spread all the drag washers throughout. Spray them liberally with brake cleaner and let them soak for 15 minutes or more.
2) Use a stiff brush to remove any residues from both sides of the washers while they're still submerged in the brake fluid and let them soak for another 15 minutes.
3) Remove the washers from the pan and discard the dirty brake fluid.
4) Clean and dry the pan then repeat the steps above.
5) After completing the second treatment place all the washers on a lint free towel and let them thoroughly air dry.
6) Apply a very light coat of Cal's or Shimano drag grease and reassemble the reel.
You may need to adjust the length of time the washers soak or the number of cleaning cycles depending on how badly the washers are contaminated. The key as always is to experiment, but that formula is what has worked for me in the past.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Thanks for the suggestion and the tutorial. I'll pick up some brake cleaner today and give the drag washers a thorough cleaning.
Please take and post before and after pictures of your drag washers, especially if this works - up close like above.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 15, 2018, 05:13:42 PMPlease take and post before and after pictures of your drag washers, especially if this works - up close like above.
Sorry, but I cleaned all the drag stacks before I saw this post, so I have no (after) pictures.
The drag stacks have now been thoroughly cleaned, so I'm curious to get out and see what happens.
Try the reels functions at home then put the reel in the freezer for a set time. Try it for function. Repeat until it fails. Then take it apart to check drags.
Quote from: handi2 on December 16, 2018, 02:58:41 PM
Try the reels functions at home then put the reel in the freezer for a set time. Try it for function. Repeat until it fails. Then take it apart to check drags.
I placed the reels in the freezer for 1-hour and they all functioned properly afterwards. I'm not sure if that's a true test, but it's a positive sign.
I finally got on the water today as I was eager to try my reels. It was a balmy 19 degrees at 7:00 am and I'm very happy to report that all the reels passed the test as not a single drag slipped!
Quote from: aqua71 on December 20, 2018, 02:01:12 AM
I finally got on the water today as I was eager to try my reels. It was a balmy 19 degrees at 7:00 am and I'm very happy to report that all the reels passed the test as not a single drag slipped!
Good for you. While I know you drags did not slip at 19 degrees are you sure your marbles did not slip being out in that temperature? :D ;D Dominick
Quote from: aqua71 on December 20, 2018, 02:01:12 AM
I finally got on the water today as I was eager to try my reels. It was a balmy 19 degrees at 7:00 am and I'm very happy to report that all the reels passed the test as not a single drag slipped!
Good for you for persevering and finding a solution that works! We all learned something at the same time. Happy endings are nice.
So just out of curiosity what did the drag washers become contaminated with?? I clean reels indoors so usually I can't use a strong solvent like break clean, do you think simple green would work?
Quote from: lifeofRiley on December 27, 2018, 06:48:33 AM
So just out of curiosity what did the drag washers become contaminated with?? I clean reels indoors so usually I can't use a strong solvent like break clean, do you think simple green would work?
Whatever it was, it was soluble in an organic solvent (brake cleaner). I'm going to guess it was something from the old grease that degraded with time, but it's just a guess.
The reels were only 1 year old and were never opened/serviced, so I don't think old grease was the culprit(?). When I opened them up I noticed the A/R bearings were over lubed, so perhaps that grease mitigated into the drag stack and contaminated it(?). FWIW I initially cleaned the drag stack with alcohol which didn't work, so obviously a stronger solvent was necessary as was suggested.
Quote from: aqua71 on December 30, 2018, 03:39:17 AMFWIW I initially cleaned the drag stack with alcohol which didn't work, so obviously a stronger solvent was necessary as was suggested.
Yeah, alcohols are pretty poor for dissolving grease and other non-polar stuff. I use naptha when I need a strong degreaser like this. Mineral spirits are too impure for this and will leave a film on the surface. I would also think that Sal's "Paslode" would work well for this application.