A friend has told me of issues with the Chinese made Special Senator 3/0(112H2 models.) Apparently the Star Drags are made from stainless steel and are thinner than the old chromed brass star drags. When a high drag is applied they shear the threads off the brass sleeve and hey presto no drag and bad luck if you are into a good fish. I am trying to get my hands on one to check it out. Anyone else aware of this problem? Why they ever fitted ball bearings to these reels baffles me. Side plates and spools are now different from the older models.
A problem I have seen is with the "stainless" steel itself: It is such low quality that it rusts very easily.
my first guess would be that they are using a 302 or 304 stainless, but even that would be better than the chrome over brass that penn had used for all these years. :-\
Stainless steel parts aren't the only issues with those reels.
Jigger, you think that's bad..try cranking down on one of those aluminum star wheel ;)
Quote from: alantani on September 29, 2011, 09:44:10 PM
my first guess would be that they are using a 302 or 304 stainless, but even that would be better than the chrome over brass that penn had used for all these years. :-\
Strange that Penn (USA) changed many reel parts (reel stand,outer and inner beauty rings etc) from brass to stainless steel with the exception of the star drags. If the stainless steel star drag is thinner than the original brass one it must be acting like a die on the brass sleeve when the drag tightened.
I would not have an aluminium star drag on a salt water reel Alto unless it had a non ferrous screwed centre.
Their aluminium reel handles were a failure due to corrosion with the brass sleeve.
I wonder how many China made Penn Senators you'll see make it to their 30th birthdays... let alone there 60th :'(. Come on Penn bring it back to the good ole' USA!
Dom
316 stainless, even 308 stainless, could have meant that 90% of the penn reels ever made might still be in service. such a waste.
Quote from: Irish Jigger on September 29, 2011, 10:53:12 PM
Strange that Penn (USA) changed many reel parts (reel stand,outer and inner beauty rings etc) from brass to stainless steel with the exception of the star drags. If the stainless steel star drag is thinner than the original brass one it must be acting like a die on the brass sleeve when the drag tightened.
I would not have an aluminium star drag on a salt water reel Alto unless it had a non ferrous screwed centre.
Their aluminium reel handles were a failure due to corrosion with the brass sleeve.
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That's what you get when you're trying to fix something that ain't broke :-\
Jigger, I have a few custom Senators that I use and a couple of them have the aluminum handle, I have never never experienced a problem with the handle, the aluminum star drag yes. The threads on those aluminum drag wheels will shred right off under pressure, I was actually able to pull one off without unscrewing it ( guys if you customize Senators, do yourself a favor and use the older star wheel that came with the reel... forget about trying to match the color). About the newer Senators, after using them for a season, open them up and you will notice that the ss parts are not the only issues with the reel.
Part of the problem with sourcing stuff to China is you spec your parts and you spec "xyz" metal. They build your prototype and everything is good. You sign the contract and production starts. Somebody, somewhere replaces the "xyz" metal you speced with with something that's cheaper and pockets the difference in cost. (remember the melamine in the milk thing that's now happened several times, melamine makes low grade milk powder test as high grade milk powder).
IMHO, I don't see any reason to buy any new Penn products at all. Their reels that were once made in the USA are still easily found on Ebay in great condition. All my new stuff will be Avet or Accurate.
In some ways, the Chinese Penns are actually better than the US models they replaced. **Any** stainless steel is probably better than brass, and the 209s, for example, now have a few stainless internals. However, I am still leery of most Chinese Penns. As I mentioned before, the quality of the stainless is very low, so there is far too much rust in far too many places; witness the 220s and 230s that come into my shop. I am also bothered by the tolerance between the gear sleeve and bridge. There is far too much slop. It's irritating to fish and, I suspect, will wear much more quickly. Another example: If you examine the foot on a US made Penn 330 and a Chinese made 330, you'll see that the Chinese foot is made of thinner metal. Both are stainless, but the Chinese model is obviously weaker. I understand why Penn started producing in China. They did it to save money and compete with other low cost producers. They did not go there to increase quality.
Quote from: ccalls on September 30, 2011, 02:27:52 PM
IMHO, I don't see any reason to buy any new Penn products at all. Their reels that were once made in the USA are still easily found on Ebay in great condition. All my new stuff will be Avet or Accurate.
I agree 100% but unfortunately there are many people out there buying Penn because of its great reputation and dependability(Made with pride in the USA). Little do they know they are now made in China.
Not all Penn reels are made in China. To me , you just won't find a better reel for the money. Just check the statistics here on Alan site and you will notice that Penn is at the top for tuturials and questions. Gee there must be more Penn guys than I thought here :-\
All Penn reels selling for under $250 are made in China. The US made (expensive) reels are great. And the Chinese reels are OK too, but not what they used to be. And I suspect if you are to compare the inexpensive Penn reels to comparable reels made by other manufacturers, Penn would be on the losing end much of the time. And Penn isn't quite a US company anymore either. They are owned by the international conglomerate Pure Fishing, the same company that owns Berkley, Abu Garcia, Pflueger, and several other well known names in fishing. It's sad.
I hear what you're saying Bill, unfortunately nothing stays the same. Now about the older Penns (those are the only reels I own), try dunking the older Senator and the older spinners a few times in the ocean, then try the same with the newer reels of today from other manufacturers and see which reels makes it to fight another day :-\
Good call Sal - the proof's in the pudding... ;)
Quote from: akfish on September 30, 2011, 10:57:31 PM
All Penn reels selling for under $250 are made in China. The US made (expensive) reels are great. And the Chinese reels are OK too, but not what they used to be. And I suspect if you are to compare the inexpensive Penn reels to comparable reels made by other manufacturers, Penn would be on the losing end much of the time. And Penn isn't quite a US company anymore either. They are owned by the international conglomerate Pure Fishing, the same company that owns Berkley, Abu Garcia, Pflueger, and several other well known names in fishing. It's sad.
It sure is sad you're right there sad with a capital S anything pure fishing i will no longer buy over here in Britain you hear nothing but people complaining about the quality of rods & reels.Shakespeare Penn abu all gone down the Chinese route.End result pure junk a lot of people are moving away from these names now as rods snap & reels fail & corrode i get sick of hearing unhappy people moaning about the quality of their latest purchase if i need a new reel now its gonna have to be avet accurate or daiwa i reckon
Quote from: tatch on October 22, 2011, 05:30:28 PM
Quote from: akfish on September 30, 2011, 10:57:31 PM
All Penn reels selling for under $250 are made in China. The US made (expensive) reels are great. And the Chinese reels are OK too, but not what they used to be. And I suspect if you are to compare the inexpensive Penn reels to comparable reels made by other manufacturers, Penn would be on the losing end much of the time. And Penn isn't quite a US company anymore either. They are owned by the international conglomerate Pure Fishing, the same company that owns Berkley, Abu Garcia, Pflueger, and several other well known names in fishing. It's sad.
It sure is sad you're right there sad with a capital S anything pure fishing i will no longer buy over here in Britain you hear nothing but people complaining about the quality of rods & reels.Shakespeare Penn abu all gone down the Chinese route.End result pure junk a lot of people are moving away from these names now as rods snap & reels fail & corrode i get sick of hearing unhappy people moaning about the quality of their latest purchase if i need a new reel now its gonna have to be avet accurate or daiwa i reckon
I agree with Tatch for 100%. I buyed a new penn 525 mag 2 in the United Kingdom. What a crab reel it was. Sold the reel within two weeks. The original penn 525 mag was much better in my opinion. The change to the avet sx en mxl was a good job for me so far. Time will tell I was right about my choice. Btw the Penn Torque conventional star drag is made in the US or in China?
Quote from: seaeagle2 on September 30, 2011, 01:58:09 PM
Part of the problem with sourcing stuff to China is you spec your parts and you spec "xyz" metal. They build your prototype and everything is good. You sign the contract and production starts. Somebody, somewhere replaces the "xyz" metal you speced with with something that's cheaper and pockets the difference in cost. (remember the melamine in the milk thing that's now happened several times, melamine makes low grade milk powder test as high grade milk powder).
Exactly, I worked for the largest Marine Engine company in the world for some years. They have been outsourcing their engines to Japan then Korea, and latest China. In China I have seen everything from security exits welded on, to various expansion bolts replaced with pirate parts, that later caused the life of Philippine seamen. It seems as communism and liberalism goes hand in hand these days, at the costs of democracy and the quality of our products. Personally Id rather pay 50% more for a US made reel that lasts a little longer.
Quote from: tatch on October 22, 2011, 05:30:28 PM
It sure is sad you're right there sad with a capital S anything pure fishing i will no longer buy over here in Britain you hear nothing but people complaining about the quality of rods & reels.Shakespeare Penn abu all gone down the Chinese route.End result pure junk a lot of people are moving away from these names now as rods snap & reels fail & corrode i get sick of hearing unhappy people moaning about the quality of their latest purchase if i need a new reel now its gonna have to be avet accurate or daiwa i reckon
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Agree 100% tatch. Its not only Pure Fishing but Svendsen who distribute Okuma reels in the UK. I recently repaired six Okuma Classic XT Multipliers that FAILED ON THEIR FIRST MACKEREL TRIP. The guy fishing next me was showing off his new Okuma reel when some wit remarked that "Chinese reels are like their boats,junk!" Well,how true. The reel failed on the first mackerel when the anti reverse pawl slipped off the anti reverse sprocket. He returned the reel to the local tackle shop for a replacement which also failed the following week under similar circumstances. The tackle shop owner asked me to have a look at six of these reels which had all failed after little use.I was able to effect a temporary repair on some of these reels but not on the ones where the moulded spigot (supporting the anti reverse pawl) had sheared off the end plate.
I contacted Svendsen re these Okuma reels and to be honest it was a total waste of time as they became silent when I explained the design faults inherent in these reels.
I don't know how good/bad their high end reels are but having examined this low end Okuma product first hand I would advise against ever buying an Okuma reel.
Incidentally two previous owners of these reels are now happily fishing with 20 year old s/h Penn 209's "Made in the USA" and not China where they are now produced.