Muskie guys are hard on their reels. I see all sorts of things that make me shake my head but this is the first time I've seen this.
Sheared the skirt off the bottom of the pinion. Bent and broke a post off the spool shaft and somehow popped the clicker ratchet gear and e-clip off.
This is from an older Shimano TE. Had the spool on the left to show the owner the difference on the spool shaft pin.
I wonder how you do that?
A locked down drag and then .....
I think a hard cast with a heavy lure/sinker, 80lb braid and then the reel accidentally goes into gear after 1 second in to the cast.
I'd love to hear the proper story.
Coool!
Quote from: Cor on December 26, 2019, 06:27:19 PM
I wonder how you do that?
A locked down drag and then .....
I think a hard cast with a heavy lure/sinker, 80lb braid and then the reel accidentally goes into gear after 1 second in to the cast.
I'd love to hear the proper story.
Exactly!
Quote from: Lunker Larry on December 26, 2019, 06:51:10 PM
Quote from: Cor on December 26, 2019, 06:27:19 PM
I wonder how you do that?
A locked down drag and then .....
I think a hard cast with a heavy lure/sinker, 80lb braid and then the reel accidentally goes into gear after 1 second in to the cast.
I'd love to hear the proper story.
Exactly!
hahaha, i've done it a couple of times but not with such serious results. I now immediately remove the automatic engaging mechanism on any such reels I may own, they are lethal and result not only in broken reels but lost lures and broken line.
Thanks for info!
I don't know why the designs don't include a freespool locking mechanism on the bigger levelwinds. I remember seeing a post somewhere for a homemade locking mechanism for Ambassadors. I think it was just a matter of cutting a slot in the sideplate.
The ideal design would have a two stage freespool, so there was an also option for non-locking freespool. I would like to have a locking freespool for distance casting, and a non locking for short lobs and drop jigging. I am curious if there is a way to do this as an aftermarket customization.
I wonder if these muskie guys are turning the handle to stop a cast in progress. The saltwater guys that also cast big lures don't seem to blow up the same models as much. The difference I see is that the muskie guys are casting to cover and don't want to overshoot. The saltwater guys are more often just hucking it out there.
-J
The high ratio reels have a very small pinion, something has to give, that is mostly the pinion, thats why I prefer a ratio of about 4.8, any higher, you will aventually run into throuble, use the rod to do most of the jigging, rather than the reel, cheers Don.
Quote from: Donnyboat on December 27, 2019, 12:56:10 AM
The high ratio reels have a very small pinion, something has to give, that is mostly the pinion, thats why I prefer a ratio of about 4.8, any higher, you will aventually run into throuble, use the rod to do most of the jigging, rather than the reel, cheers Don.
Hi Don,
If the jig gets bit on the drop or hits bottom, it is nice to turn the handle to put the reel in gear. It shortens the time from free spool to winding. This can make a big difference sometimes. I wouldn't expect this to be as big a problem as the reel going into gear on a cast.
With the classic west coast (USA) irons and the new slow pitch style jigs, winding is an important part of working the jig. These jigs are usually not fished with just the short lift and drop.
But I do agree that it is better to be as easy as possible on these types of reels. I think that they could be built to be more robust.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on December 27, 2019, 02:30:45 AM
Quote from: Donnyboat on December 27, 2019, 12:56:10 AM
The high ratio reels have a very small pinion, something has to give, that is mostly the pinion, thats why I prefer a ratio of about 4.8, any higher, you will aventually run into throuble, use the rod to do most of the jigging, rather than the reel, cheers Don.
Hi Don,
.................
But I do agree that it is better to be as easy as possible on these types of reels. I think that they could be built to be more robust.
-J
I cast jigs of 3 - 4 oz for about 100 yds and that generates a lot of momentum and speed in the spool.
I doubt if they could make a reel robust enough not to break from a pinion trying to engage itself under that kind of situation, probably won't happen in one occasion, but a few times will for sure eventually result in serious damage.
I quickly found it unavoidable when I first acquired such a reel. Every now and then my front arm would touch the handle followed by a horrible breaking noise. ( nothing ever broke like the above picture though) The occurrence was much greater when making sudden quick casts at fish that were very close. With deliberate normal casts, this happened seldom, but "seldom" may be 1/500 casts, still too much risk to break a reel, line and loose terminal tackle.
Important..... If you're trying to picture in your mind how this happens, bear in mind we fish with our reels situated at the rear of the rod, which naturally brings the front forearm in close proximity to handle of the reel! I attach a poor quality photo to illustrate!
Quote from: Lunker Larry on December 26, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
Muskie guys are hard on their reels. I see all sorts of things that make me shake my head but this is the first time I've seen this.
Sheared the skirt off the bottom of the pinion. Bent and broke a post off the spool shaft and somehow popped the clicker ratchet gear and e-clip off.
This is from an older Shimano TE. Had the spool on the left to show the owner the difference on the spool shaft pin.
larry, do you have a part number?
Hi Alan. As you probably suspected the reel is not supported anymore by Shimano and it did not have the part. I found a repair depot that still had 2 pinions on inventory so no issues there. I cut the bent shaft pin and popped it out, replacing it with the one out of the spool on the left. Also had to file and buff the pinion race (proper term?) as it was chewed up. Reel is pretty darn smooth now and should last him a long time if he doesn't do it again. Older TE parts are getting almost impossible to find, especially the drive shafts.
Jerlometer, thanks for you eccement, I use multi colour jigging braid, that give me some idea how much line I have in the water.
sounds good Larry looks like your on top of it, happy fishing man, cheers Don.
If the pinion is not hobbed (i.e., without the ring) then fishing "high" drag on these smaller reels will eventually result in failure...most likely regardless of brand or reel model. Split a 13-155 pinion after one season.
Quote from: Porthos on December 29, 2019, 03:15:13 AM
If the pinion is not hobbed (i.e., without the ring) then fishing "high" drag on these smaller reels will eventually result in failure...most likely regardless of brand or reel model. Split a 13-155 pinion after one season.
Maybe...
But I think it depends on the pinion/shaft junction design. The rings do help a little.
The main problem is the amount of force that a cast generates. If the reel can go into gear accidentally when there is enough force to snap 80 lb braid, the force generated is beyond what most small reels can handle in the yoke system. Something in the reel is going to break. If not the pinon, then something else. With a classic conventional reel, it is highly unlikely that the the reel will accidentally go into gear during a cast. But levelwinds that engage via turning the handles... well that is a different story. As Cor mentioned, all you have to do is bump the handle. I have done this a couple times myself. The reel made a scary grinding noise. I will take it apart this winter and assess the damage.
The new "stronger" levelwind designs have beefed up some of the components- but the yoke system blowing up from an accidentally aborted cast is still a issue. It looks to me like the manufacturers made an effort on making the handle rotation stiffer while in freespool, but I think this was not enough. They should have provided some sort of locking mechanism.
I think this is the problem that Larry is seeing. A pinion ring is not going to solve the problem IMHO. Larry is also seeing broken yokes.
-J
Quote from: Porthos on December 29, 2019, 03:15:13 AM
If the pinion is not hobbed (i.e., without the ring) then fishing "high" drag on these smaller reels will eventually result in failure...most likely regardless of brand or reel model. Split a 13-155 pinion after one season.
I think the same as jurelometer.
In my experience those rings that are supposed to strengthen the pinion do help, but in most situations they just fall off from the pinion after some time and here I am not thinking of "self engaging reels" as under discussion.
Quote from: Porthos on December 29, 2019, 03:15:13 AM
If the pinion is not hobbed (i.e., without the ring) then fishing "high" drag on these smaller reels will eventually result in failure...most likely regardless of brand or reel model. Split a 13-155 pinion after one season.
I agree with Wai!
I've seen it happen myself when testing the Jigmaster's drag washers above 27lb.
The ring does help, but can't ask too much for a reel when going double than recommended settings in some cases.
On the particular reel mentioned, The ProChallenger's pinion is heat treated and could take a little more abuse than stock.
Also keep in mind I have seen milled teeth that don't match to others as positioned to the notch.
Some gave 3 teeth on each side, (slight groves) some have 2.5. This leaves the ones with less teeth a little weaker.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 29, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
...but can't ask too much for a reel when going double than recommended settings in some cases...
Sal
Even after replacing the 13-155 with a 13-200, I am only pushing the host reel to 12 lbs drag max (w/ SS gear sleeve vs. the 8 lb ceiling for the factory brass). Another 4 lbs on top of that is something I'd not even attempt with the 13-200.
From what I've seen, you should be ok with 5 more lbs, but don't blame you if there is no need.
The 13-200 was originally rated at 15lbs, not sure what it is now.
The max drag on the Jigmaster was actually at 17 lbs max from Penn at one time.
I know the custom gears can easily take 25lbs max, but other components will need to be replaced to make those work.
Sal
I think I see it now. With a modern baitcaster, when casting you keep your thumb on the freespool lever as well as on the spool/line, stopping the line just before the lure/bait touches down. Hit the handle on somethin and it won't go back into gear during the cast, cause the kick lever won't move with your thumb pressing down the freespool lever.
So, I'm good with the 2015 Abu Revo, but gotta watch the old '73 Abu 5000.
Good stuff here thanks for posting L.L., et.al.
Quote from: Gfish on December 29, 2019, 09:17:11 PM
I think I see it now. With a modern baitcaster, when casting you keep your thumb on the freespool lever as well as on the spool/line, stopping the line just before the lure/bait touches down. Hit the handle on somethin and it won't go back into gear during the cast, cause the kick lever won't move with your thumb pressing down the freespool lever.
So, I'm good with the 2015 Abu Revo, but gotta watch the old '73 Abu 5000.
Good stuff here thanks for posting L.L., et.al.
Don't know about the Revo, but it is sort of hard to thumb the spool and hold down the thumb bar at the same time.
Thanks for the good information, and trying to keep this post alive there is a possibility that the larger reel grips can cause the reelhandle to rotate during casting as its certainly an inertia thing ..... Im some of my reels just rolling the reel over with oversize handles allows unseen gravity to engage the reel when jigging. The autoengage is both good and bad, take your pick? Everybody fishes different in and around the globe. We all learn stuff here. :-X
As for another good question? Why dont most if not all reels have a floating levelwind like some of the old Ambassadors? The line automatically engages the levelwing when winding in line and floats when casting or freespooling out line? This is my nickels worth.
Just wondering. :(
Quote from: jurelometer on December 30, 2019, 01:04:36 AM
Quote from: Gfish on December 29, 2019, 09:17:11 PM
I think I see it now. With a modern baitcaster, when casting you keep your thumb on the freespool lever as well as on the spool/line, stopping the line just before the lure/bait touches down. Hit the handle on somethin and it won't go back into gear during the cast, cause the kick lever won't move with your thumb pressing down the freespool lever.
So, I'm good with the 2015 Abu Revo, but gotta watch the old '73 Abu 5000.
Good stuff here thanks for posting L.L., et.al.
Don't know about the Revo, but it is sort of hard to thumb the spool and hold down the thumb bar at the same time.
Right. The Abu 5000 would be pert near impossible to hold down the f.s. button while casting and thumbing the spool. The Revo has a free spool "bar" that your thumb rests on. Just move your thumb up 1/4" and you're thumbin the spool as well as holdin down the bar.
Quote from: gstours on December 30, 2019, 04:04:53 PM
................
As for another good question? Why dont most if not all reels have a floating levelwind like some of the old Ambassadors? The line automatically engages the levelwing when winding in line and floats when casting or freespooling out line? This is my nickels worth.
Just wondering. :(
I think you mean what I understand to be a engaged level winding mechanism, IOW it moves during a cast?
I've always believed that moving the levelwinder from left to right during casting uses a fair bit of energy and will limit freespool and therefore casting distance. For some casting fanatics this may be very important.
However, I can possibly argue the other side of that myself.
* Most casters these days use various cast control mechanisms to slow the spool down during cast to avoid the dreaded "birds nest",
perhaps these would not be necessary, with that type of level wind, or to a lesser extent?
* Some of the Daiwa levelwinders and I am thinking of the Saltist range, cast just as well with moving levelwinder as other reels without,
perhaps nullifying my own reason for preferring a disengaging system.
Quote
Right. The Abu 5000 would be pert near impossible to hold down the f.s. button while casting and thumbing the spool. The Revo has a free spool "bar" that your thumb rests on. Just move your thumb up 1/4" and you're thumbin the spool as well as holdin down the bar.
Nope. At least for my thumb and the Komodo, which has a bar like the Revo. Thumbling the spool requires a very light touch. I cannot hold the thumb bar down with enough force to stop the reel from going into gear still have a light enough touch to thumb the spool. Not sure if it is good for the reel to force it to stay in free spool either.
Quote from: Cor on December 30, 2019, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: gstours on December 30, 2019, 04:04:53 PM
................
As for another good question? Why dont most if not all reels have a floating levelwind like some of the old Ambassadors? The line automatically engages the levelwing when winding in line and floats when casting or freespooling out line? This is my nickels worth.
Just wondering. :(
I think you mean what I understand to be a engaged level winding mechanism, IOW it moves during a cast?
I've always believed that moving the levelwinder from left to right during casting uses a fair bit of energy and will limit freespool and therefore casting distance. For some casting fanatics this may be very important.
However, I can possibly argue the other side of that myself.
* Most casters these days use various cast control mechanisms to slow the spool down during cast to avoid the dreaded "birds nest",
perhaps these would not be necessary, with that type of level wind, or to a lesser extent?
* Some of the Daiwa levelwinders and I am thinking of the Saltist range, cast just as well with moving levelwinder as other reels without,
perhaps nullifying my own reason for preferring a disengaging system.
To elaborate a bit on Cor's excellent post:
Levelwinds that stay engaged during freespool track the location of the line leaving the spool, so there is less force on the levelwind when pulling against a heavy load, and slightly less friction against the levelwind guide on the cast. But moving the levelwind back and forth steals energy from the cast. You can cast far with the right always-engaged levelwind reel (but not quite as far as a disengaging levelwind) as long as the levelwind mechanism is kept cleaned, properly lubed, and is not worn out. This requires much more frequent maintenance than I expected. Once things get a bit sticky or dry, casting distance can degrade pretty badly.
But... Disengaging levelwind reels should have a narrower spool to decrease the maximum out-of-alignment angle from the levelwind to the line on the spool. Within reasonable limits, a wider spool will outcast a narrower spool of the same line capacity. So some of the advantage of a always-engaged levelwind can end up being lost by narrowing the spool.
While I don't have firsthand experience with all the different brands, by looking at the schematics and the experiences posted here, each brand seems to have made some reasonable and some dubious design choices, so it is hard to directly compare only disengaging vs always-engaged levelwind as a design choice. It would seem that the lighter the lure, and the lighter the drag, the better the chances are that a disengaging levelwind will be a good choice. And always-engaged makes sense for bigger jigging and trolling reels. As to the point where the tradeoff crosses over? Dunno.
Oh, I just thought of something else: Modern braided line is much softer and smaller diameter than mono. So the friction penalty during the cast for a disengaging levelwind is much lower nowadays. A cast that jammed coils of stiff mono through a levelwind that was not synchronized with the line on the spool could have been a big deal back when some of the original designs were made.
-J
Quote from: gstours on December 30, 2019, 04:04:53 PM
Thanks for the good information, and trying to keep this post alive there is a possibility that the larger reel grips can cause the reelhandle to rotate during casting as its certainly an inertia thing ..... Im some of my reels just rolling the reel over with oversize handles allows unseen gravity to engage the reel when jigging. The autoengage is both good and bad, take your pick? Everybody fishes different in and around the globe. We all learn stuff here. :-X
Wasn't this a known problem on certain models of the Abu (NaCl?) with a factory power handle? If the knob is in a location that encourages it to rotate during the cast, it can pop the reel into gear. Presumably this was fixed in later models, and as mentioned in this thread, the newer big levelwinds of various brands have beefed up the mechanism that holds the handle in place during the cast. If I was adding an aftermarket power handle to any levelwind, I would tread carefully, and use as light a knob as possible, preferably with a counterbalance.
-J
Yup. The Revo has 3 adjustable cast control systems: spool/bearing cap for friction; magnetic; and centrifical. So I don't needa thumb-control the cast until I kinda jab it to stop the spool as the lure/bait hits the water at the end of the cast. Havin your thumb right there at that time works great.
How might constant pressure damage the thumb bar, i.e. "forcing it to stay in freespool"?
Without a counterbalanced handle you're asking for trouble. Just don't cast it.
However, you can find reels that have a counterbalance weight on the handle but it is still not really balanced. Try to balance it on a blade right at the center of the screw hole to see. Also, there is a passive balance and a dynamic balance. Things like the length of the arm and profile of the knob can make it want to move during the cast. Probably without enough force to trip the clutch though.
On an ABU, you cut a notch about 3/32" into the 'L' shaped clutch button/lever. That bent piece of metal (the button/lever) can rock forward and backward a little and it's movement is normally constrained by the slot in the head plate. When taking the reel out of gear, you depress the button/lever and then rock it backward so the notch that you cut catches on the slit in the head plate. That's enough extra tension to prevent it from accidentally engaging the clutch. It will still engage automatically when the handle is purposely turned.
-steve