Good morning guys I need your Brains. I upgraded a friend's 113H to SS pro challenger 4:1 gear set, SS yoke and eccentric jack yesterday. Complete service on internals and drag washers. All back together and when cranking it growls a little louder than the brass set that was original. Is this normal for SS gears. Does it break in and quiet down later. Also the worst part is in free spool if I tighten down the drag and hold the spool from spinning and crank it gets louder and I can feel the gears sticking or jumping. Doesn't do it if drag is completely loose though. This is my first time using SS parts. Took it apart again this morning and measured main gear and pinion and are exact same size as the old set I took out. Went over everything again put back together and same problem. I could use your help Oh Knowledgeable Ones !!! Thanks Richy
It's perfectly normal for SS gears. It should quiet down some with use under a load. It will never get as slooth & quiet like a bronze main gear. Rudy
Quote from: RowdyW on March 13, 2020, 04:30:34 PM
It's perfectly normal for SS gears. It should quiet down some with use under a load. It will never get as slooth & quiet like a bronze main gear. Rudy
This is my experience with SS gears as well.
Hey Rudy, I kinda figured they would be a little noisier. I'm sure my friend could live with that since he fishes about everyday he will wear it in quickly. My concern is the problem when it's in free spool. The gears should not get louder, stick or jump when I hold the spool from spinning while cranking and tighten the drag down. There should be no noise at all. I've taken it apart 3 more times this morning. First time put the brass eccentric jack back in same problem. Second time put the brass yoke in too same problem. Third time I put back original main and pinion gear. Works like a charm absolutely no noise in gear or free spool while cranking. This doesn't help me cause he wants the 4:1 gears. I just can't figure out why tightening the drag makes that problem happen. Gonna have a couple of beers and try again. Someone here smarter than me will figure it out in the mean time. Thanks
Richy,
Is the spool centered in the frame?
Maybe the jack is not pushing the pinion far enough away from the spool to completely disengage?
I had to tweak the ramps on the jack once to allow the pinion to travel far enough to clear the spool shaft.
Quote from: xjchad on March 13, 2020, 05:24:59 PM
Richy,
Is the spool centered in the frame?
Maybe the jack is not pushing the pinion far enough away from the spool to completely disengage?
I had to tweak the ramps on the jack once to allow the pinion to travel far enough to clear the spool shaft.
What he said above.
Sal
What you are describing can be normal with these gears. If I crank the drag down on my Fathom 25N's with lower gear set.... Best way to describe it is it feels like the pinion is grinding on the yoke. I spent literally hours trying to figure it out. Another member here, Lee, looked at my reel & we discovered his reel does the same with gear set when you crank the drag into 13 - 15 lb. range. Being that I no longer use this reel every day like in the past I chose to live with it.
EDIT: My apologies. I do need to slow down when reading posts. I did not have the issue in free spool that you describe & the mechanics of these two reels is slightly different. I agree Chad is steering you in the right direction on this... Jeff
Quote from: xjchad on March 13, 2020, 05:24:59 PM
Richy,
Is the spool centered in the frame?
Maybe the jack is not pushing the pinion far enough away from the spool to completely disengage?
I had to tweak the ramps on the jack once to allow the pinion to travel far enough to clear the spool shaft.
Hey Chad, the spool is center as far as I can tell. It doesn't feel like the pinion is rubbing the shaft part it feels like the pinion teeth are rubbing on something maybe the top of the main gear teeth. The spool has great free spool if I spin it by hand, no rubbing or noise. I just put the SS gear set back in but used the brass yoke and eccentric and it got better but not gone. Does tightening the drag push the pinion down at all or pull the main gear up ??? I'm on my 3rd beer now and it's driving me nuts.
Tightening the drag should not move the pinion or main gears.
Sometimes with the SS gears, the groove in the pinion where the yoke rides has pretty sharp edges. Maybe when in freespool, the pinion has a little more play and the edges of the groove and teeth of the pinion are catching the edges of the yoke slightly?
The brass yoke is softer and would be more forgiving, but won't last as long.
Maybe try some emory cloth or a fine file to break the sharp edges of the groove and teeth of the pinion as well as the edges of the yoke.
Custom parts often need some fine tuning despite the high quality and tolerances to which they are made.
Quote from: xjchad on March 13, 2020, 06:13:01 PM
Tightening the drag should not move the pinion or main gears.
Sometimes with the SS gears, the groove in the pinion where the yoke rides has pretty sharp edges. Maybe when in freespool, the pinion has a little more play and the edges of the groove and teeth of the pinion are catching the edges of the yoke slightly?
The brass yoke is softer and would be more forgiving, but won't last as long.
Maybe try some emory cloth or a fine file to break the sharp edges of the groove and teeth of the pinion as well as the edges of the yoke.
Custom parts often need some fine tuning despite the high quality and tolerances to which they are made.
Hey Chad, that sounds logical. I know the SS parts have a tighter tolerance just didn't think it was that tight. Gonna have to take it apart again and will try to ease all the edges of the pinion and yoke and put back together with all the SS parts and see what happens. Want to thank all you guys for the help. I figured if anyone knows the answer they would be here on Alan's great site. Will keep youz updated on what happens. Richy
I know this situation too...about the drag tightening thing...been here a few times. What happens there is when that main gear starts to "lock on" to the gear sleeve it no longer gives when it passes a tight spot. It can brush something...the pinion...or the side plate...and translate as roughness. The tips the fellows have given will help. I've found that just spooling the reel by hand, under pressure, really smooths out that stainless. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on March 13, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
what happens there is when that main gear starts to "lock on" to the gear sleeve it no longer gives when it passes a tight spot. It can brush something...the pinion...or the side plate...and translate as roughness.
That makes a lot sense Mo, thanks for that tip!!
Make sure the yoke is right side up.
In freespool the yoke can slightly move around, and this is why your noise increases when in freespool. Take yoke and pinion gear together in your hand and make sure it moves freely in the slot
You don't have to use the SS yoke. You will have to change it each year. Try it with the stock yoke just to see.
Keith
Is there any lateral play in the sleeve and handle? What is the under-gear washer like?
-steve
Quote from: mo65 on March 13, 2020, 07:11:52 PM
I know this situation too...about the drag tightening thing...been here a few times. What happens there is when that main gear starts to "lock on" to the gear sleeve it no longer gives when it passes a tight spot. It can brush something...the pinion...or the side plate...and translate as roughness. The tips the fellows have given will help. I've found that just spooling the reel by hand, under pressure, really smooths out that stainless. 8)
Good morning MO that sounds logical. Couldn't get my head around the drag thing but your explanation now I understand. Gonna star over again this morning using all these tips and see what happens. Thanks. Richy
Quote from: Maxed Out on March 13, 2020, 08:34:23 PM
Make sure the yoke is right side up.
In freespool the yoke can slightly move around, and this is why your noise increases when in freespool. Take yoke and pinion gear together in your hand and make sure it moves freely in the slot
Hey Max didn't know there was a right side up on the yoke will check that this morning. Thanks. Richy
Quote from: handi2 on March 13, 2020, 09:52:59 PM
You don't have to use the SS yoke. You will have to change it each year. Try it with the stock yoke just to see.
Keith
Hey Keith have the stock yoke and eccentric in now and the noise and rubbing got slightly better. Don't really want to swap out yoke every year so will see if I can fine tune it this morning again. Thanks. Richy
Quote from: oc1 on March 14, 2020, 06:31:41 AM
Is there any lateral play in the sleeve and handle? What is the under-gear washer like?
-steve
Hey Steve just the normal play on both nothing out of the ordinary. Under gear is new with the HT-100 5 stack. Will start from scratch again this AM. Richy
Hang in there Right, you'll get it!
Okay Guys here's the update. 5th time was a charm, Somewhat. LOL. So I took it apart again and used most of the tips given. I filed down the teeth on the pinion on top and below where the yoke sits then a little emery. took out the digital calipers to check the original and SS yokes. SS one was 0.05 mm thicker, don't know if that mattered. Hit it with a little with emery just in case. While it was apart I swapped out the bridge and gear sleeve with a spare set I had that was already together. The reason was I didn't like the play in the handle on the original sleeve, a little rounded. Put in a new clicker tongue and c-clip. Changed the cup bearing on click side, didn't like it. Replaced 2 inside rings that were cracked. Made sure the yoke was right side up. Re-greased everything and put it back together. Wala ! Flipped lever to lock and cranked the handle and noise reduced to normal in gears. Still a little bit louder than brass but 100 % better. Assuming that will go away a bit with use. Flipped the lever to free spool, tightened the drag down, held the spool from spinning and started cranking. Success ! Not completely gone but 90 % better than before. No sticking or jumping felt. With use assume that will go away too. I've learned a lot about SS upgrades on this 3 day build. Not as simple as what I've been used to with brass and steel parts. Want to thank all you Guys for the help and advice, don't think I would have figured it out on my own. If I did it would have taken a lot more BEERS ! :D Thanks again for all the help. Here's a picture of my nightmare. Richy P.S. Sorry about the pictures being sideways don't know what happened. OK on my to Happy Hour. Later
Good job!
Your next one will be much easier and the one after that you could do in darkness🙂.
I'm glad you got it worked out.
Sal
Good work Richy, you now know 6/0s inside out, and because of your post, many new members have learnt a lot as well, that reel, will last a life time & more, well done, now we want to see some photos, that you catch with it, good luck cheers Don.
Awesome Richy!
Glad you got it ironed out!
Great job Richie. However I would recommend you need to take it back apart once more and remove all that grease from the spool shaft and inside the pinion. That grease gets inside the pinion and messes with freespool, and can also prevent pinion from sliding freely up and down the shaft. The grease should only go on the keyed part where pinion locks onto the spool shaft. The shaft itself should be lubed with very light thin oil. This will make a huge difference in amount of freespool. The grease on the spool shaft is what's causing the spool to turn when cranking handle while in freespool. Remove that grease and you'll totally eliminate that issue
My apologies for not mentioning this earlier, but I had just noticed lots of grease on the spool shaft in your last post
Always good to see some one stick around long enough that they get the reel right... Jeff
Quote from: Maxed Out on March 14, 2020, 11:33:44 PM
Great job Richie. However I would recommend you need to take it back apart once more and remove all that grease from the spool shaft and inside the pinion. That grease gets inside the pinion and messes with freespool, and can also prevent pinion from sliding freely up and down the shaft. The grease should only go on the keyed part where pinion locks onto the spool shaft. The shaft itself should be lubed with very light thin oil. This will make a huge difference in amount of freespool. The grease on the spool shaft is what's causing the spool to turn when cranking handle while in freespool. Remove that grease and you'll totally eliminate that issue
My apologies for not mentioning this earlier, but I had just noticed lots of grease on the spool shaft in your last post
Good call Ted! I didn't notice that, but grease on the spool shaft will create a lot of drag and hurt the free spool.
Better to use a good light oil there.
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 14, 2020, 08:58:16 PM
Good job!
Your next one will be much easier and the one after that you could do in darkness🙂.
I’m glad you got it worked out.
Sal
Thanks Sal. Couldn't have done it without all the help from this great site.
Quote from: Donnyboat on March 14, 2020, 11:16:53 PM
Good work Richy, you now know 6/0s inside out, and because of your post, many new members have learnt a lot as well, that reel, will last a life time & more, well done, now we want to see some photos, that you catch with it, good luck cheers Don.
Thanks Don. I know the reel looks big in picture but it's a 4/0 113H. All the same inside though. That's how I learned by reading other people's posts. Hope it helps someone else too. Cheers.
Quote from: xjchad on March 14, 2020, 11:24:09 PM
Awesome Richy!
Glad you got it ironed out!
Hey Chad me too. Thanks to this site anything is possible. ;D
Quote from: Maxed Out on March 14, 2020, 11:33:44 PM
Great job Richie. However I would recommend you need to take it back apart once more and remove all that grease from the spool shaft and inside the pinion. That grease gets inside the pinion and messes with freespool, and can also prevent pinion from sliding freely up and down the shaft. The grease should only go on the keyed part where pinion locks onto the spool shaft. The shaft itself should be lubed with very light thin oil. This will make a huge difference in amount of freespool. The grease on the spool shaft is what's causing the spool to turn when cranking handle while in freespool. Remove that grease and you'll totally eliminate that issue
My apologies for not mentioning this earlier, but I had just noticed lots of grease on the spool shaft in your last post
Hey Ted that was an earlier picture. I did clean it up a little more before putting it back together. Up here in Raritan Bay, NJ we mostly use the grease instead of just oil because mostly worry about Saltwater intrusion rather than 90 seconds of free spool. These 4/0's and 6/0's are mainly for trolling Striped Bass and Bluefish purposes. Not a lot of casting or free spooling bait with these reels. I do understand what you're saying about the spool turning while cranking though. Also want to thank you for the heads up about the yoke. I actually did have it upside down with the sharp edge up. Might have been one of those Beers I had Cornfused me ! ;)
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 15, 2020, 01:04:59 AM
Always good to see some one stick around long enough that they get the reel right... Jeff
Hey Jeff it's just the way I am. Once I start a project I can't quit till it's done and done right especially when it's someone elses reel. Could be my OCD kicking in. ;D Also this site will not let you quit until it's finished correctly, that's why I love this site.