I have a technical way I created of presetting drag settings consistently on my reels (baitcaster) I would like to share and see what yall think.
I thought of the idea knowing that drag is nothing more than torque. So that gave me the idea of using a torque driver to set my drags the same way and its easy every time I go out.
All my reels are the same, Revo STX, which has a 10mm nut on the handle. I put the socket on the end of the wrench, loosen the drag, thumb on the spool, twist the tool on the handle nut, and tighten the drag before the wrench clicks, or reached its torque setting, move on to the next reel.
I'm sure different reels would require different settings, but the principal is the same. It took me a little while to find the "ideal spot" drag setting for each pound test. Some can use this, some may think it's techno over kill, but I'm always looking for ways to take fishing reels to another level.
Matt
After all the comments and reviews on the topic, I have attached the latest PDF file of the report below:
if you didn't have a scale, i think it would be the next best thing.
I tried line scales in the beginning and did not like the time it took to for the setup, trying to read the average force when the drag slipped, while apply force. To me it was just guessing at the setting. Using the wrench, it takes no time, applies the same setting every time and you don't even need line on the spool to set it.
This will work for the reels drag setting but does not account for the friction from the rod guides. When I'm albacore fishing it does not matter (I set the albacore trolling reels on the charter boat by feel) but for cow YFT I'd still use a scale and reset the drag at the start of the day.
yeah, figure the guides will add 10%.
interesting concept.
There's no doubt that doing the initial calculations to figure the settings is trivial. I'm sure if someone had the time and the knowhow, could figure in all the external variables; friction, water density, angles, etc, etc. (like putting together an excel file)
I thought about all this while setting up this "Torque" method for presetting drags and decided not to get too wrapped up in the physics of this. All I really wanted was to set my drags the same every time I changed out line, cleaned my reels, or right before going on a fishing trip since sometimes I adjust the drag after fishing from the last trip.
However I also know that the numbers will change such as how much line is on the reel. It will take more torque on a full spool (less drag) than a spool half empty (more drag), which means drag settings will change while losing line (I think I have this right?) How much this affects, is the unknown. That's why it takes some adjusting and playing with to find the sweet spot setting for each reel type and line. That gets me close enough knowing my drag is not to lose or too tight quickly and effectively using this "Torque" method.
For your fishing you are running a much higher % of line breaking strength than I do (30% up to 80lb and 30-34 pounds for 130lb and 200lb at strike, some of my reels will ramp up to the mid 40s at full but I can't take that much for long) so being close is more important. I do like the torque idea for shop use.
I used to run at setting of 6 in-lbs (lower %),but my hooksets were peeling drag on the pull back, so i moved it to 10 in-lbs for 15 pound braid and it works just right, while still leaving drag for 5lb bass.
Completely different from my fishing. I quit "setting" hooks years ago but I'm not trying to pull large tuna out of submerged timber and weeds.
No doubt Keta. Its different. I would think you could still set your your reels up to use in saltwater fishing, just with a higher setting. I normally do all my adjustments in the shop, where on the water time is to valuable.
Quote from: BassMatt on December 09, 2011, 11:25:01 PM
However I also know that the numbers will change such as how much line is on the reel. It will take more torque on a full spool (more drag) than a spool half empty (less drag), which means drag settings will change while losing line (I think I have this right?)
BassMatt: you reversed it. More drag on half spool, less drag on full spool. At any rate if you factor in the rest of the drag, just add 10% and you should be right on. Dominick
Your right Pescachaser, I figured I would have mixed that up, thats why I had to question myself. You are right about the 10% add on, based on actual vs caculated, it seems I have to always set the wrench to a slighly higher setting for the desired results.
Quote from: BassMatt on December 11, 2011, 02:05:06 PM
Your right Pescachaser, I figured I would have mixed that up, thats why I had to question myself. You are right about the 10% add on, based on actual vs caculated, it seems I have to always set the wrench to a slighly higher setting for the desired results.
I would think this one through also. I did not mean add 10% on to the drag, I meant in figuring out the drag add 10%. To set the drag and you want to compensate for the 10%, then you would set it for 10% less. I think I'll put the bottle of wine away, I am confusing myself ???. Dominick
It can get confusing real fast if you over think it (actually the wine would probably help). Although you have challenged me to do an experiment and dust off my digital scale and do a comparison. Keep in mind the tool I have (Whia) is calibrated from 7.5 to 20 in/lbs. So trying to read a value similar to what saltwater guys use, I cannot without getting a wrench with higher calibrations or settings. I have not tried this with any other reel or tool.
The reel I used was a Revo STX with 15 pound ultracast braid. My readings were the average pounds with a slow constant pull on the reel.
Here's my results (as tested in order):
Setting on Wrench in/lb-Constant Pull in Pounds
10-2
13-3
16-4
20-5
16-4
13-3.05
10-2.12
8-2
11-3
18-4.15
17-4.02
12-3.04
9-2.07
7.5-2
20-5.03
For me, the best initial setting I use is 10 and go from there. Anything over that (15-20 in/lb) starts to make my line dig in the spool. Plus, I got tired of breaking fish off, so I tend to stay on the safe side and this seems to work the best for me.
Most of these the number are consistent. At the level I'm using, the constant multiplier seems to be about 4 to get the poundage. Whia only makes a wrench that goes up to a 70 in/lb, or I would assume up to 17-18 pounds based on these results. So getting anything higher would take another type of wrench.
Well, I could not stop on my last post, so I did another experiment.
This time I tried a Shimano Tekota 700 with a Craftsman 944593 Torque wrench with a range of 25-250 in/lbs (regular torque wrench).I used a 13mm socket for the handle nut.
Here are the results:
Torque setting in/lb- slow constant drag pull weight
70-19
85-22
100-25
As predicted from the last post the multiplier is around 4 and yielding the predicted results on the saltwater reels. It seems like though anything over 25 pounds of drag would be hard to set. Trying to hold the spool and twisting the wrench at 100 in/lbs was tuff. I will have to think of a way to restrain it for higher settings, although the reel appeared to be maxing out on drag at that setting.
Their seems to be a pattern here, I think my next thing to do is create a chart with more results with a range of 10 to a 100 in/lbs.
Fast and easy system once you have the settings down.
Interesting stuff.
Can you go heavier on the braid to avoid breaking it? The lightest Spectra I like to use is 20lb with 6-12lb mono or Fluro topshots for kokanee and steelhead and prefer 40lb.
My smallest torque wrench is much too big at 50 foot pounds and I have one that will do 250lbs.
Keta
I like to use the lightest line I can get away with a lower drag setting. I do a lot of casting. The lighter the line, the less chance I will backlash or get line tangles, which takes time out of the day, plus it's frustrating. I have tried heavier braids before, but out of all the lines I have used, they get too spongy after getting wet and get heavy on the larger sizes.
I think most of my past line failures I had were from both too much drag and knot strengths. I like to tie on Fluro leaders and I think now I have found a knot combination that's easiest to tie and consistent (Uni-to Uni) and a Palomar at the lure. A knot not tied right can greatly reduce the line %.
In the past on my drag setting, I just use to guess at it based on feel and using the line scale a few times, but that was too much hassle. Plus, reading the scale from 4 to 7 feet away and trying to average the number was a tossup or guess. I knew there had to be a better way to set the drag the same every time. It's a piece of the system that's just as important as the line weights and knots you tie that you should not have to guess at.
50 ft/ lb is pretty big. That's 600 in/lbs for drag weight of about 150 pounds. :o
Quote from: BassMatt on December 12, 2011, 03:02:40 PM
50 ft/ lb is pretty big. That's 600 in/lbs for drag weight of about 150 pounds. :o
I cast constantly when steelhead fishing and don't notice problems. Probably differences in the braid, I use uncoated white JB Line One.
I have enough trouble staying in the boat using 28-35 pounds, I'd be water skying with 150lbs of drag. ;D
My smallest and largest reels
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/IGFA19Keta/DSCN1131.jpg)
That's what you call a diversified angler (those two reels must be really old 20's or 30's?)
After thinking this more (too obsessive at this point) I found some interesting equipment that reads the line pull a little differently than a fish scale for my next comparison. I should get it soon and will test and report some other mind boggling ideas about drag if I predict. More details to come latter.
Now if I can just figure out how to set a spinning reel and preset spool tension knobs like above. If I do that though I think it might take all the fun out of fishing.....naaa never
I really like this site and have been looking at it for over two years. A lot of good info with regards to optimizing fishing reels. This is my first post ever and cannot believe the interest. I have some other things and methods on reel repair I have come up with or discovered that I would like to share on future posts. Right now my focus is the torque method. I would like to finish this topic with information we can all use and at the same time introduce comments and ideas from others.
I went ahead and made a procedure write up on to do this torque method with more detail and illustration. I'm still working on the drag weight table conversion and should have that out next week. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for all the input and posts that has made me take a closer look at this process.
Matt Marquis
Matt: Way cool PDF file and illustrations. I have a torque wrench somewhere. I want to try it. You have a unique concept. Dominick
Quote from: BassMatt on December 09, 2011, 11:58:16 AM
I tried line scales in the beginning and did not like the time it took to for the setup, trying to read the average force when the drag slipped, while apply force. To me it was just guessing at the setting. Using the wrench, it takes no time, applies the same setting every time and you don't even need line on the spool to set it.
Use a scale with a "tell-tale" on it. It makes it simple. It will tell you right where the drag slipped. In other words, use a drag scale
Thanks Dominick for the compliment. I appreciate your comments. I wish you or someone else would test it out to see. I figure if I can super tune my reels and shim out all the loose tolerances (0.002 to 0.005 inches) on a prime tool that separates me from the fish,....... I can fine tune my drag settings.
This concept is not for everybody and quite a new idea that will have to gain acceptance. I thought that at first this idea was a long shot of success, but after using it for over a year it has changed my fishing performance with quick tugging fish. I know and am confident that my reels are set the same way every time I go fishing and that un-foreseen line abrasion and weakened knots don't scare me (to a certain level) from landing fish. You have to try it a few times and then you're "hooked".
Still working on those tables..........I have two methods I'm working on; mathematical and by test results. Then I can compare the two. The original post I did is only part of the math puzzle (it was my initial logic of calculating the setting when I was trying to figure this all out), but sense then I figured out the other pieces I was missing to make any "reel" sense out of this. I'm getting closer though.
Some other thoughts, ideas, and intial findings on low profile casters for comment.
Here is another way of looking at this
The drag is nothing more than a slipping clutch. The drag screw adjustment is like a spring in the clutch and keeps a constant pressure (when you tighten or loosen the setting) on the Drag washers. You have two sides to the clutch:
1. The side that the fish runs with
2. The other side is you reeling him in.
The drag is design to slip with either of the two cases when drag force setting is not enough to keep the washers from slipping.
Let's say a fish takes your line and pulls 10 pound (measured from your line scale) and the drag slips. After you do the entire math(which i'm still working on), you will have "x" torque at the big gear on the drag stack.
Then the clutch or drag slips, but on the other side of the drag washers your handle does not move.
Using the Torque Method you Reverse The Whole Process
Spool is kept still while you make adjustments on the handle side shaft.
When you use the torque wrench, all your doing is measuring "x" torque, and making adjustments to the drag to match what a fish taking 10 pounds on the other side of the system.
Gear ratios on low profile baitcasters does affect the drag settings, but not much. See the initial information and real tests results on 3 different reels. See below attached.
The overall initial results yielded some general conclusions(some are obvious)
1. Ratios do effect the setting, generally 0.5 lbs of drag weight for each step up or down on the ratio (ex increase from 5:1 to 6:1-add 0.5 pounds total)
2. Drag adjustment is easier to fine tune with higher ratio than lower ratio. Multiple drag washers are also easier to adjust than single washer reels.
3. Multiple drag washers yielded more variations of weight when the drag slipped vs Single washer applications.
4. Generally you can use the same torque setting for all classes (ratios to complex to basic designs) of low profile reels that would yield about 0.5 pounds of variation.
5. Drag washer type (drag grease carbon fiber vs drag grease-cotton fiber) did not affect weights or settings. Under certain situations and conditions, the drag material type might handle differently over the other. Have not tested any of this yet.
I think after all this, the method will get you real close or more when you start the day. As the day drags on, other conditions will affect these numbers that may or not be controlled such as:
• Excessive line fray
• Line overlapping (braid, not as bad on mono, floro) itself inside the spool that will cause greater resistance (++ pounds added to your total weight)
• And the list can go on. Basically ANYTHING can happen where line breakage is not foreseen or controlled between the end of your lure (or fish) to the first surface of the drag washer. The one that got away.
Generally (based on these intial results) any variations in reel design, materials, drag greased, no drag grease, or water will not create a greater variation than doing the same test the same way, same setting, same reel with a line scale. There are too many uncontrollable factors that can create a higher percent of error. Plus the "System" has too many friction and resistive conditions that are not feasible to calculate. The idea here is to set them closer and easier to the drag weight you are after so you can fine tune your fishing experience. Sorry for the length.
Matt
I usually like to set my drag to 1/3 of its max and let the fish tell me what to do. Your statistics are good but I don't see on how you could get them accurate. There are too many things to take into account: FISH, water condition, line and so on. I've also noticed lately that some reel manufacturers are showing gear ratio and how much line a reel retrieves in per crank. I'm still trying to figure that one out :-\. If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? Gear ratio goes hand and hand with line retrieve, it gives us a general idea, but that's about it. My 10/0 Senator has a 2:1 gear ratio and my 4/0 custom Senator has a 4:1 gear ratio, they both retrieve the same amount of line per crank, at full spool :-\. Just my comment.
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 24, 2011, 06:41:27 PM
If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? ............ My 10/0 Senator has a 2:1 gear ratio and my 4/0 custom Senator has a 4:1 gear ratio, they both retrieve the same amount of line per crank, at full spool.
Just rough without knowing anything specific about these two reels since I don't have one:
10/0
2:1 Ratio
36" Line at full spool
The spool OD is 146 mm
The spool ID (empty) is a wild guess at 65 mm without putting a Caliper on it, just using it as an example:
100%=36" Line
50% (thickness of spool-not the amount of total line)=25"
33%=23"
The 4/0 reel is the same line retrieve; half ratio, half the spool OD, the 50% and 33% are the same retrieve for both reels.
Send me the spool ID empty and I can tell you for sure.
MM
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 24, 2011, 06:41:27 PM
I usually like to set my drag to 1/3 of its max and let the fish tell me what to do. Your statistics are good but I don't see on how you could get them accurate. There are too many things to take into account: FISH, water condition, line and so on. I've also noticed lately that some reel manufacturers are showing gear ratio and how much line a reel retrieves in per crank. I'm still trying to figure that one out :-\. If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? Gear ratio goes hand and hand with line retrieve, it gives us a general idea, but that's about it. My 10/0 Senator has a 2:1 gear ratio and my 4/0 custom Senator has a 4:1 gear ratio, they both retrieve the same amount of line per crank, at full spool :-\. Just my comment.
Sal: I think you are missing Matt's point. He too sets the drag to 1/3 the breaking strength of the line just like anyone else including me. But instead of setting the drag and mounting it on a rod and getting out the drag scale to get to the 1/3 breaking strength, Matt is figuring out how to set the drag on the bench by using a torque wrench. If Matt perfects this procedure we can set the drag right on the bench and pack the reel away for travel and know it is just about right on. Of course all the other variables enter the picture, but Matt's idea might streamline the manner in which we initially set our drags. Right now I pack my reels for travel with the drags loose. When I set everything up I get out the drag scale to set the drags for the type of fishing I'll be doing. Doing this is a drag (pun intended) so being able to do it easily is worth trying. Dominick
OK, I see what you're trying to do MM. Thanks for the explenation Dominick. About the line retrieve though, how can a manufacturers specify how much line a reel retrieves per crank when it changes constantly,that's the reason i compared the 10/0 with the 4/0. It all comes down to spool diameter ratio and where the line is sitting on the spool. It might just be me that doesn't get it.
Back to your topic MM, sorry for bringing it off track. Keep your ideas coming, I'm sure we will all benefit by them. Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 24, 2011, 06:41:27 PM
I've also noticed lately that some reel manufacturers are showing gear ratio and how much line a reel retrieves in per crank. I'm still trying to figure that one out :-\. If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? Gear ratio goes hand and hand with line retrieve, it gives us a general idea, but that's about it. Just my comment.
Fully agree Alto Mare. Shimano quote line recovery for the Trinidad TN16 as 46" per crank. This would be impossible to achieve even if the line was wound round the outside flanges of the spool. In practice the actual recovery rate is anywhere from 15" to 43" per crank. depending on how much line is on the spool.
Just another exaggerated and misleading quotation from the manufacturers of fishing tackle.
Sal, all of your comment are all part of the whole concept and needs to be considered.
I think the reel manufactures try to have a benchmark to compare to and they use the max spool as that mark. What they should do is give the min also, or "Range" Max to Min. That would be a whole lot more useful.
Or
iIf they are going to report their "max" drag at full spool, it should be at empty spool, because if you max the drag at full spool and drag slips, might as well throw your reel in the drink and give it up, because the reel is useless at that point and drag weights only get worse as the monster is taking line. They should do a better job of reporting that information.
On my reels, and would image most others, I fill the line up to about 80% of the calculated spool OD. The thing is, when you work down to the end of the line, the drag starts to increase more than most realize, over 50%. You do not know what that is unless you do the math and measure the spool.
Another great reason to start your drag off light in the beginning.
If I'm correct here would you not have to change the numbers you plug into this equation depending on the spools diameter? So if you take reels with varying spool diameters you need to measure or know the spools diameter and keep this handy when using this technique so you can set your drags right, right? What if you plug in a number incorrectly should you double check your math? IMO a spring scale makes the process much faster and easier.
Pesca you said "instead of setting the drag and mounting it on a rod and getting out the drag scale to get to the 1/3 breaking strength, Matt is figuring out how to set the drag on the bench" and " Right now I pack my reels for travel with the drags loose. When I set everything up I get out the drag scale to set the drags for the type of fishing I'll be doing. Doing this is a drag (pun intended) so being able to do it easily is worth trying". If you want to set your drags before hand on a bench you could still use a spring scale, I do this all the time.
This set it and forget it thing may work for some types of fishing, but on other types it is not really realistic. Like if your reels are subject to water from pouring rain, a lot of spray while in the rocket launchers or just a lot of pounding or vibration while on a boat. Also if you target large hard charging fish you may need to re calibrate every couple of fish or so.
This may be the best thing since sliced bread for some but for me I believe in KISS. If you can show me a easier, faster way without having to breakout the calculator and trying to remember where I put the list of my reels spools diameters I'm all ears.
Don't get me wrong I do like it when people think outside of the box because this is when most innovation happens. Good luck BassMatt and keep letting us know how this works for you.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 26, 2011, 06:37:52 AM
This set it and forget it thing may work for some types of fishing, but on other types it is not really realistic. Like if your reels are subject to water from pouring rain, a lot of spray while in the rocket launchers or just a lot of pounding or vibration while on a boat. Also if you target large hard charging fish you may need to re calibrate every couple of fish or so.
This may be the best thing since sliced bread for some but for me I believe in KISS. If you can show me a easier, faster way without having to breakout the calculator and trying to remember where I put the list of my reels spools diameters I'm all ears.
Don't get me wrong I do like it when people think outside of the box because this is when most innovation happens. Good luck BassMatt and keep letting us know how this works for you.
SoCal: There is no argument here. What Matt is bringing to the table is as KISS as you can get. Take all the variables out of your mind. No matter what you do the variables are going to be there. Now think about what he is proposing. Grab a wrench tighten a nut with the wrench until you reach the torque limit and you are done. How's that for KISS :-* ? Dominick
Well after looking and reviewing the math on all this I finally have come up with the method to do this the KISS way. Although this post might be long and lengthily, I have a lot to share. If you have been interested so far in this topic, keep reading. It may take some time for this to soak in.
I have this all summed up in a nice simple form that's very nice that will work with anyone and really help you adjust drags settings to a level that no one could do before without thinking about the other options available to set the drag, this Torque Method concept.
See the attached results for the math way vs. the test way. I used the reels I own and once I figured all the details out, I found some other specs of other reels to compare with (all thanks to Alan Tani for the info on the 20# reels post) The numbers all are very close to each other to use an "Avg" setting factor (16 in/lb in the example chart) for certain reel classes. I still plan to do a much simpler chart for those that might be interested in an avg number without knowing anything about the reel.
It seems so far, in my review, that most of the reel manufactures try to achieve a certain balance between what happens at the handle to what happens at the spool. For those that like to know all the specifics for one type or each reel, you only need to know 3 things max.
I still have some more testing like rod guides and angles to see if that affects anything, but it's time to get into the meat and potatoes of this.
Only TWO pieces of info are needed to do this:
1. REEL GEAR RATIO
2. LINE RETRIEVE OR SPOOL OD (mm)
If you want to go real technical and really know the max drag at a setting, get:
3. SPOOL ID (mm)- when empty to fine tune the results.
I can explain latter in another post.
Take the example from Sal in reply 25:
Using the Torque Method and setting his reel with 16 lb/in at the handle:
Senator 10/0
1. 2:1
2. 36"
His slipping drag weight (or line pull scale weight) at full spool is 2.79 lbs
If he can't fill his spool to 100% and only 80% it would be 3.49 lbs
If his spools empty and assuming his spool ID is 50% OD (I don't know that factor for sure) it would be 5.58 lbs
These values are probably not practical for his use, but I used 16 as an example to compare from the attached.
But
If he set it to say 100 lb/in on the handle, the results would be:
80% full spool=21.81 lbs
50% full spool= 34.89 lbs-Big jump at the end of the line.
His 4/0 will get the same exact results with the same settings, same method.
Irish Jigger on reply 29........Shimano TN 16 with 6.2 ratio is set with 100 lbs/in at handle:
Spool that retrieves 46".......13.65 lbs.
But at what he recommends at 43" of line per crank will yield 14.60 lbs drag weight
And at the bottom of the spool at 15" of line..........41.87 lbs
Are we getting the idea????
I know you got be asking how can this all be so simple.....Believe me I asked myself the same question, and after hours of getting too deep into the details, it clicked.
Let me say this though. After reviewing all the variables (washer material coefficients, drag washers wet or dry or lubed, drag washer pressures, torque forces on the drag, drag washer OD and ID, drag washer qty, etc, etc, etc)................Throw all those variables out of the mind because they are not affected in any way that you would normally want to achieve with a line scale.
The torque method is doing the EXACT same method as a line scale, with more options and detail, on the handle side vs. the line side.
With a line scale, you adjust your drag to slip for so many pounds of force.
With the Torque Method, you adjust your drag to slip for so many pounds of force
The only difference between the two is they all happen on the opposite sides of the drag washer that slips.
Actually the one thing that the reel has the greatest impact to flexing drag weights is the amount of line you have on the spool when empty. If you are like many, you normally check your drag weights with full spool of line. When you do this, you are setting your drag weight to the lowest level of drag resistance that the reel will offer for that drag setting. Actually for every inch of line you have coming off your reel; the drag force begins to multiply itself more and more the closer you get to the bottom of the reel.
After reviewing all this and let's say you want to set your reels to a drag weight that will slip say after the reel is 75% empty of line, how do you do that without taking all your line off and checking the weights (I guess you could, but what a pain and mess) That's how you can adjust it with the torque method on the other side of the reel.
Plus when you set drag weights with a line scale, you set it on the side of the reel gear that is the least efficient, possibly with more error in your setting. Set it on the handle side where the gear is more efficient and closer to the end results. Plus......that's the same side and system (of the reel) of the drag setting you adjust, which will be closer to the results you want.
I will get this worksheet cleaned up soon and attempt to get it posted. Also looking at some more details and thoughts.
Comments, complaints, questions, and anything else are welcome.....Matt Marquis
Matt is using the same reel, setting the drag at 75% of line breaking strength, and doing so to 4-16 rods. Rod # is based on an assumption. He is also Bass fishing which means no three hour pause at the bait barge to set up all of those rods for the five+ day trip. I think its great he is establishing SOP for his day on the water. I prefer going through guides of the rod I am going to fish with and a scale for fishing exotics but when I fish for Bass I do not use a scale. Twelve pound and under I have it loose enough to pull some line off and 15 and over I pretty much lock it up. The fish I break off usually break off just from turning their head in a rock. If I let them run around the structure they will break off anyway.
As far as all of the other variables like spool diameter, line angle, line diameter, ect. ect. I'm not smart enough to account for all of those factors. I think that's why 33% of breaking strength is typical, kind of takes those factors into consideration.
I'm sure we have not heard the end of this topic.
Brendan.
Well, if I could post an excel file, I would but I can't.
But, see the attached what it looks like.
Send me a message if you want an electronic copy to review:
Matt
Matt, took my first look at the spreadsheet. Very impressed, don't think I wont be trying it and testing it against a scale just to see if it works. I completely understand being ready for a one hour to one day trip in advance. It's just part of the ritual on multiple day trips to have a couple of beers and set up all of the gear. Then double check once you get close to the fishing grounds just in case you focused more on the beer. Good job, tight lines.
Brendan.
Matt: I looked at the PDF. Good job of gathering the information. While I support your unique idea as a Penn fan I cannot see cranking on a Penn screw on the handle with a torque wrench because of the shape of the screw. On the other hand those persons with a nut holding on the handle should have no problems with the lower drag settings. The problem that I see is cranking on a nut with 100lbs of torque, in order to get drags in the upper ranges one would risk stripping the threads on the nut. Dominick
Thanks Guys
And funny you mention the max torque, because I was thinking that as the tables were being populated, but had not had a chance to look at it closely yet. I never really thought about maxing the threads on brass in the past because I typically use a nut driver type torque wrench and not a lever wrench, never have had a problem in the past. Looking at the max specs for fine thread brass hardware, an 8mm thread (sm reels) is about 116 lb/in and the bigger reels are at 10mm at max 212 lb/in. But does not figure in that most reel shafts are cut down, which makes max torque drop. Plus some handle nuts I have seen are not average in size, and do stress crack. (Did this once while tightening a nut on a reel after putting it back together long time ago before I did any of this)
On shaft handle adjusted torque knobs, I wonder if the star knob itself ever is torqued to higher rating that what we are trying to get to????, Still probably not a good comparison, plus it's also working on a shaft with full threads and diameter. Good point Dominick.
The worksheet I did can be used by reel specific or general use. It will automatically populate the table at the bottom according to the reel specs entered in the shaded boxes. MM
Don't know about being able to use a table to preset a drag for an unknown reel, but I think this torque method would be an easy way to reset a particular reel back to a known drag setting that had been set on a scale when a scale is not available. Hope I said that right and it makes sense - Jimmer
For those all interested, everything is summed up in one form and report on the Torque Method (Refer to the orginal post for the PDF file with details and the report.) Thanks for the input and would have not done it without all your help!
Matt
Matt: great job. I downloaded the report and it is very informative. Dominick
Thanks Dominick!
Sort of off the topic, I found that digital bow scales (for archery) work real good for checking weight with the line scale method (OMP M100 Digital Bow Scale). They can tell you peak load (tale tell) and constant load too. Just two more of my cents in the topic!
Quote from: Alto Mare on December 25, 2011, 02:29:34 AM
OK, I see what you're trying to do MM. Thanks for the explenation Dominick. About the line retrieve though, how can a manufacturers specify how much line a reel retrieves per crank when it changes constantly,that's the reason i compared the 10/0 with the 4/0. It all comes down to spool diameter ratio and where the line is sitting on the spool. It might just be me that doesn't get it.
Back to your topic MM, sorry for bringing it off track. Keep your ideas coming, I'm sure we will all benefit by them. Sal
The way I do it, is it is on the average spool diameter
example reel specs:
2.8:1 ratio
20 inches per turn
Formula:
[Pi = 3.14]
Line per crank / (Gear Ratio x 3.14) = Average spool diameter (Inches)
So in this example
20 / (2.8 x 3.14) = Average spool diameter (Inches)
20 / 8.792 = 2.2748" Average spool diameter
So it will vary, but it's the average
______________________________
For spool capacities I'm trying a TCF (total capacity factor)
To try & know capacities for different diameters on a given spool & figure backing or top shots
example spool capacity specs:
spool capacity (0.55mm/320m) converted to inches/yards = 0.021653543307/349.95625547
1st Formula:
Line capacity (Yards) x Line diameter (Inches) = TCF (Yard-Inches)
So this example
0.021653543307 x 349.95625547 = 7.577792933 TCF
So by using rounded TCF of 7.5778 for capacity of spool
Different line diameter example = 0.018"
2nd Formula:
TCF (7.5778) / New line diameter (0.018") = New capacity
7.5778 / 0.018 = 421 Yards of different line
...................
Say you want 30# mono backing (but don't know how much) with 100 yard 50# braid topshot
example, 30# is 0.022" & 50# is 0.014"
First figure the braid TCF
100 yd x 0.014 diameter = 1.4 TCF
Remember the TCF of spool was 7.5778
So subtract the braid TCF from the Spool TCF
7.5778 - 1.4 = 6.1778 mono TCF
So using 2nd Formula, plugging in mono TCF....
Mono TCF (6.1778) / 30# mono diameter (0.022") = mono needed
6.1778 / 0.022 = 280.81 yd
Now load 281 yd of your 30# mono & then you will have the room for your 100 yd 50# braid topshot?
....Reid
edit grammar/spelling
welcome treidm
Thank you wallacewt! (Corrected, my sincere apologies)
Glad I found this site, will learn much
....Reid
wallaceWC no no
wallaceWT
Welcome as well treidm
I think your line estimating logic will hold true if the radius of line on the spool never changed, but it's more complex than that to figure it with a mathematical approach. It's more of a parabolic rate than equal proportions.
The spool will fill faster with line when you start to fill the spool than when it gets closer to being full, it will fill slower.
Generally, using a proportion or ratio method will get you in the "area" if you're working with a relatively full spool of line already (80%-100% total capacity.)
I have found that the manufacturer reports relatively accurate ratios and line retrieves (at top of spool), because these can be calculated easily with a few design figures. I have yet to believe the truth in the capacity fill, max drag weight, and MSRP.
no worries treidm
ive been got at,shot at,pot at and slung sh!!!!!! at all my life mate.
enjoy your stay.
Quote from: BassMatt on January 04, 2012, 02:02:29 PM
Welcome as well treidm
I think your line estimating logic will hold true if the radius of line on the spool never changed, but it's more complex than that to figure it with a mathematical approach. It's more of a parabolic rate than equal proportions.
The spool will fill faster with line when you start to fill the spool than when it gets closer to being full, it will fill slower.
Generally, using a proportion or ratio method will get you in the "area" if you're working with a relatively full spool of line already (80%-100% total capacity.)
I have found that the manufacturer reports relatively accurate ratios and line retrieves (at top of spool), because these can be calculated easily with a few design figures. I have yet to believe the truth in the capacity fill, max drag weight, and MSRP.
Thanks for welcome....
If you are referring to the line retrieve, the whole reason I try to do a mean calculation is due to exactly that.
You could never know inches per crank on a diameter that constantly changes.
Same goes for drag, it increases as the spool diameter decreases. I can't remember but seems like with 1/3 line left, drag almost doubles, would have to look it up in my notes.
Note: With offshore fishing, you can have less than half or more line off of spool, so not sure if 80% of line on spool would cover it?
What I tried to use was average spool diameter
Probably the more useful way would link up to what yardage is out when fishing, what yardage ave is out on longest run, then find most used retrieve rate for how you fish
I have enjoyed looking at your pdf file, nice work!
....Reid
Edit grammar/spelling
Reid,
One thing to keep in mind is that all reels are not created equal.
Based on my spools, the pattern will generally do the following and for other similar spool types:
Full Spool Midpoint Spool 1/3 Spool Near Empty Spool
Line Retrieve 100% Reduced 75% Reduced 66% Reduced 50% (Half)
Drag Weight 100% Increase 50% Increase 66% Increase 100% (Double)
For the mathematical approach to solve for line capacity, see image below:
All this logic is great and fun to use as a guide and to think about and talk about, but nothing replaces the experience gained from practical use over time.
Thanks for the compliment on the Torque Method Drag Study. It consumed nearly all my holiday season with a challenge that would not leave me alone. But it's finally done (for now)! Let us know on any of your findings, its great information to compare too.
Quote from: wallacewt on January 04, 2012, 10:56:42 PM
no worries treidm
ive been got at,shot at,pot at and slung sh!!!!!! at all my life mate.
enjoy your stay.
Hey Wallace: I know we have a common language but I don't know what "pot at" means. The rest of that sentence is easy. Dominick
BassMatt
For a different approach with dimensions used:
Removed formula, because I posted it all bass-ackwards and left out a part
I should have taken more time to post correctly.....
Yes, it is fun thinking about all this, but none of it can be exact
Never takes into account how tight or spread you use for laying line on, lines won't be consistent in diameters etc.... But it's fun
They are just approximations, but close enough
Have you done anymore testing with drag setting?
I'm interested in any findings you have....
....Reid
Reid,
How accurate or close does your equation get?
Your original equation gets about with 25 yards to what I'm used to seeing on my reel.
The new equation you posted yields something totally different????
Maybe it's the combination of different units, not sure??? But I'm having a hard time following the logic and units.
Here is what I have and maybe you can help explain it better:
Spool specs:
OD=35mm
ID=16mm
W=20mm
I know I can fill my spool with 0.008 in thick line with one box at 125yds. The spools OD when filled is 28mm, what would the capacity be if another line thickness is used using your logic?
I have not done anything else with the drag study other than the latest report (1.4 on Jan 1) attached in the original post of this topic and some of the other notes posted throughout this whole discussion. The only thing else to compare is what happens on the pole and how that is affected. I have two scenarios: A rod with ceramic micro guides to a saltwater rod with regular and roller bearing guides. Might get a chance to look at it this weekend.
Dominick.......... nice way to keep the humor still alive through all this other language going on.
Quote from: Pescachaser on January 05, 2012, 03:51:04 AM
Quote from: wallacewt on January 04, 2012, 10:56:42 PM
no worries treidm
ive been got at,shot at,pot at and slung sh!!!!!! at all my life mate.
enjoy your stay.
Hey Wallace: I know we have a common language but I don't know what "pot at" means. The rest of that sentence is easy. Dominick
Matt
Hey Matt: yes it is humorous, but it was a serious question. I really don't know what it means and Google was no help ???. The references to "pot" in Australian slang was to Marijuana, size of a beer glass or the classic referral as in "get off the pot." So I need Wallace to chime in. Dominick
to take a"pot at" is to take a "pot shot"
eg;normally a punch when your not looking.it doesnt have to land,and doesnt matter if it does,its still a pot shot.it can also be verbal,object thrown,or a challenge.a bit similar to "forget about it" in usa but nothing like it.
Hi,
Thanks Matt, for the drag study, you are a true nerd!.
I think your method would find use for lab testing drags, but a better connection between the torque wrench and the reels are needed. But with little effort this can be easily be made I guess.
Quote from: wallacewt on January 06, 2012, 01:01:04 AM
to take a"pot at" is to take a "pot shot"
eg;normally a punch when your not looking.it doesnt have to land,and doesnt matter if it does,its still a pot shot.it can also be verbal,object thrown,or a challenge.a bit similar to "forget about it" in usa but nothing like it.
Wallace. A punch when not looking is call a "sucker punch." George Bernard Shaw said: England and America are two countries separated by a common language. The same can be said for Australia and America. Keep it up. I really enjoy the colorful slang. Ta. Dominick
Matt:
LOL, I'm still trying to figure out your equation and figure a way to enter it into an excel document, so I can compare results
Could you also tell me the line retrieve in inches & gear ratio for reel in question, thanks
When you say average spool width in formula, that would be half of spool width, correct?
Reid
This is fun, only wish I had more time to fiddle with.....
Oh yeah, it's not you, I was tired and screwed up with my example, I'm not extremely computer savvy, I'll have to redo...
Reid,
Try the following and see if it works in excel:
The blue is your cell spot. Result in yards.
=((spool width inches/((COS(RADIANS(30)))*2*line thickness inches))*((3.14* line thickness inches *((POWER(spool od inches,2))-(POWER(spool id inches,2)))/(4*(POWER(line thickness inches,2)))))/12)/3
Line retrieve= Spool Diameter (in) x Reel Ratio x 3.14
Or
27.7=1.38 x 6.4 x 3.14
Ratio is 6.4 or 7.1
The manufacture states the line retrieve at 27.5 inches, which is for simple reel comparison
The average spool width is this if you're using calipers on the spool. Most spools will not be the same from top (full line) to bottom (empty line):
Measure width of top of spool=21
Measure width of bottom spool=19
The average width of spool would be =20
Don't sweat what happen on your example, I have made some errors on this topic (I'm sure I might have a few more lingering), but caught them and corrected them. Since then I have tried to really look at what I'm trying to explain and make sure I'm as correct the best I can present. MM
Matt, it's great to see you being so involved into this, your hard work is appreciated. I believe that the most accurate way of determinig line retrieve per crank is on a DRY full spool. As soon as that line hits the water, all of the statistics go with it. Just my opinion. Different story if a reel was made like a belt pulley :-\. Sal
Sal, I hear you, and it's just like I have said before.
Quote"All this logic is great and fun to use as a guide and to think about and talk about, but nothing replaces the experience gained from practical use over time"
The main thing I'm interested in all this is to develop a pattern. I think all of us are serious enough about finding the pattern when fishing in general. The only thing that matters more beyond that is to duplicate on another spot what you did ounce you think you have found a pattern. Thats why I created the Torque Method. I have found a way to adjust my drag to the right setting or benchmark that works with my type of fishing, so it's easier for me to predict what to expect out of my reels.
Trying to understand what fish will do is a lot like understanding what women will do...its complicated. But if you develop a pattern, then you can predict how to handle the situation better.
All this stuff doesn't mean that it will yield the perfect results, and that's not what I'm after. I'm after the trend and to understand and predict better what happens when fish bite. And they will not be their long most of the time, so you have to be prepared.
You have to start somewhere. I would rather not do it by trial and error not knowing anything in particular and lose 10 world trophy fish. Instead, I try to use everything I know to work towards being a better angler and being better prepared, and maybe I'll only lose 2 trophy fish instead in the process.
Killerbug
QuoteI think your method would find use for lab testing drags, but a better connection between the torque wrench and the reels are needed. But with little effort this can be easily be made I guess.
No doubt all reels are not set up or designed the same, nor have a regular nut on the end. Some have covers; some have a nut retaining rings that is bolted on the handle, (which helps with my method). Care should be considered when using or selecting your weights. When the manufacture mills the handle shaft for the handle slot, the industry torque guidelines are lost by the modification.
With my reels it's very easy because the nut is exposed like many others. On some of my older reels that had covers, I bought just a regular acorn reel handle nut that fit the threads, omitted the cover, and used that as my connection point, and it still looks good. I have also experienced that using a regular torque wrench is not ideal, but would work. The torque driver that looks like a hand held nut driver is the best; it's easy to handle, small, and fits my small reel toolbox (pelican case) or tackle bag.
MM
Matt:
I think the in-depth method you have for measuring spool to calculate line capacity has been well thought out.
I have given it much thought and tried a very simple method and tested it against yours as you asked.
I realized my mistakes were being made in differing types of measurements, so I spent two nights thinking and working on this.
I wanted to have a method where all the measurements were not necessary, and you would just need to know one time a line diameter & spool capacity, and that's all. Here's the comparison....
YOUR METHOD
Your Given Parameters
Full Spool Diameter Metric = 28mm
Empty Spool Diameter Metric = 16mm
Average Spool Width Metric = 20mm
CONVERTED TO STANDARD
Full Spool Diameter Inches = 1.1023622047
Empty Spool Diameter Inches = 0.6299212598
Average Spool Width Inches = 0.7874015748
YOUR EXCEL FORMULA GIVEN
=(( Average Spool Width Inches/((COS(RADIANS(30)))*2* Line Diameter Inches))*((3.14* Line Diameter Inches *((POWER(Full Spool Diameter Inches,2))-(POWER(Empty Spool Diameter Inches,2)))/(4*(POWER(Line Diameter Inches,2)))))/12)/3
Plugged in various line diameters:
0.006 = 225.355
0.008 = 126.762 (This was the one you said was known @ 125yd) Your pretty close
0.010 = 81.128
0.011 = 67.048
0.012 = 56.339
0.014 = 41.392
0.018 = 25.039
0.022 = 16.762
__________________________________________________
NEW SIMPLIFIED METHOD (NO MEASURING OF SPOOLS)
Using your 0.008 & 126.762 as known capacity
Results
0.006 = 225.3547
0.008 = 126.762
0.010 = 81.1277
0.011 = 67.0477
0.012 = 56.3387
0.014 = 41.3917
0.018 = 25.0394
0.022 = 16.7619
The formula needs all parameters to be the same type to work, so if you are using standard, all must be in inches, if using metric, all must be in millimeters.
I've made an EXCEL sheet that has both Standard & Metric Calculators, along with included mini-calculators for inch to mm, yard to meter, mm to inch & meter to yard conversions.
So once you have a known capacity for a known line diameter, this should work without measuring the spool
It's been fun to think on this.....
If anyone wants a copy, shoot a pm, I'll email you one to try
Think I'll try and make one for backing & topshots next
Reid
Wow, great thread lads.
My head hurts. ;)
All this for a Revo STX drag????? You guys are nuts.
yo ;D ;D
well after reading each and every page my head is about to blow up over in England we are miles behind you lads as regards checking our reel drags most of the lads i fish with just pull on the line and if it feels good you ready to go i tryed to explane to them about using to 1/3 of your main line IE 30lbs set your drag @ 10lbs then i started to play with the scales and greased drag washers well ive fitted most of the lads reels with carbon X washers & Cal`s and set there drags up and boy what a differance im now at the stage where i need to upgrade my scales from not having a tell tail to a set of scales that does so i can set my drags up on my own i was watching some big game fishing in aussie on you tube and i noticed a chap call peter kulma using drag scale wow that looks the business so a got in touch with him through email his reply was it was a BOUZ Drag Checker that you can check your drag just in front of the reel or you can check after threading through the guides /rollers now what a great idea only thing is thare are not available over hear in England so check them out on google now who would like to buy me a scale and send it over to England other wise i have to pay import tax and vat and postage and that would make the drag checker way over price round about £120 sterling there is two models in the range im after the DC -1015 the red one i can pay by pay-pal regards & tight-lines Alain
i can look into it for you willy if you like.
Hi Wallacewt that would be great i do know you can buy them in aus have you herd of peter Kuluma (Kuluma tackle) big game charter skipper ill check on google see what shops come up speak soon tight-lines Alain
price on their site is $225aud without postage to uk.i sent them an email and will let you know soon
do you mean peter pakula,(peter kuluma?)
good fisherman and very smart
Hi Wallacewt thats him he as some good clips on you tube
got the email back from drag checker.
$225aud and firm
free shipping in aust;
international is xtra
Hi wallacewt just checked the price from aud $ to £ sterling works out at £140 + post ? the F. P. O = fishing. Permision . Officer = the wife would go nuts if i bought one best to leave it of the shops shelf thanks anyway for your help tight-lines Alain
Try this out. It is the link to Plate in Japan. The Bouz runs around $55 USD there.
http://www.plat.co.jp/shop/catalog/product_info/language/en/manufacturers_id/54/products_id/2320/bouz/drag-checker-1005.html
Also they have the Seagaur Kuhrea 130 Flouro on sale. Great prices on this line. Tested it out on the bench and diameter and strength equal to Blackwate Shock and Seagaur Premier.
http://www.plat.co.jp/shop/catalog/default/language/en/cPath/30_415_1078/fishing-line/shock-leader-leader-etc/kureha-fluorocarbon/
JimN.
I am getting = $84.42 US dollar at the above Site link????