Alright, so right off the top of the beer mug, I don't know Shinola about the different drag systems of these different reel manufactures. I am learning. Geared/Eared/Keyed and never an even number. While reading the post about the Sealine 30H from Daiwa, I seen this mentioned about Versa Drag Style Setup.
Can anyone tell me what versa drag style is or means ?
....."
Re: Daiwa Sealine 30H
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 04:08:06 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote
gstours,adding one more washer will not give you more drag. Drag setups have to be odd numbers of drags so you would have to add 2 CF washers & 1 keyed washer & 1 eared washer to have the odd number stack. Stacks have to be odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. & the last eared washer must be in the gear to work unless you are using a Versa Drag style setup......"
Thanks you for your contribution to my education
Mic
that was more of a penn thing that never made sense to me. all the time that we were trying to increase the functional amount of drag surface area, penn came along with a system that decreased it. totally made no sense to me. i never heard that daiwa did something similar. i would hope not. :-\
Alan, are you speaking specifically of the Versa drag? Like the Penn Mag 525? If so I completely missed this discussion. Can you explain how the drag decreased with what I think is more surface?
I fix 'em, but lack in theory.
You practically double the working surface area with the 'Versa Drag' system. 'Standard' drag layout means only one side of a drag washer will apply drag - the other side basically sticks to the eared or keyed washer. Keying the cf drag washers to the gear and using only keyed metal washers ensures both sides of the cf will provide friction.
interesting... you're saying that CF+eared metal+CF sticks together & essentially acts as a unit,
providing useful friction mostly on the two "outer" surfaces that come in contact w/ keyed washers
is that gospel or debatable? is it true for all drag materials, or just CF?
is that a high-drag phenomenon, or does it apply to lighter settings on small spinners w/ 6-stacks?
thks
Let me throw some gasoline in the fire , and there is two more articles in the right side bar also . http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html (http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html)
It will take me some time to digest that one, but thank you very much.
I always figured conventional drag washers were just taking the path of least resistance.
Doing without a drag and using your thumb to control the reel is enlightening and lends credence to what he says about speed and heat build-up.
The 113MTL has the "Versa Drag" system. A mostly unknown fact about Versa Drag is the drag stack is made to reconfigure according to your needs. The 113mtl supposedly has 28# of max drag
The fewer the functional drag surfaces, the more clamping force is required per pound of drag. This means that theoretically, with the lighter drag configuration, you can "micro-tune" the drag setting more easily (more star turns per lb of drag).
BUT:
The greater the clamping force, the more irregularities and alignment issues will contribute additional static friction (sometimes incorrectly referred to as drag startup inertia), in other words, less drag surfaces means a more sticky drag for a given lb setting.
The most useful Versa Drag configuration for both high and low drag settings is to maximize the functional drag surfaces. No Versa required, except for marketing purpose :)
Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 03, 2021, 05:46:52 PM
Let me throw some gasoline in the fire , and there is two more articles in the right side bar also . http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html (http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html)
This guy's theories have been discussed in a few other threads. There is some accurate information mixed in with some (IMHO) inaccurate conclusions. For example. while it is true that drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load (only the coefficient of friction matters), the diameter does matter, as the greater the diameter, the more work per revolution (greater distance traveled). Also, it is easier to manufacture a smooth long lasting drag system with a large surface area. Another example, thermal expansion of the metal disks should NOT matter, as it is minimal even at high temps, only equivalent to a light bump of the star (I did the equations in one of the threads).
And so on.
He also had a patent for using Rulon for drag washers in a spinning reel, which might have influenced his theories. It seems like you can get a patent for anything. Mebbe I should apply for a patent for using right hand thread screws in fly reels :)
-J
I attempted to type a few explanations - but wasn't happy with how they read - Tribology is a very weird, and difficult to explain, science :-\
Suffice to say (I hope) that more frictional surfaces (ala Versa Drag), for a given clamping force, will provide a smoother drag for OUR purposes.
It's late (for me).
Let me know J.
Quote from: Maxed Out on February 03, 2021, 09:48:56 PM
The 113MTL has the "Versa Drag" system. A mostly unknown fact about Versa Drag is the drag stack is made to reconfigure according to your needs. The 113mtl supposedly has 28# of max drag
Completely agree Sir,
It's late for me to....
Alright, so the versa drag system is basically a calculated theory that depending on where or how many steel spacers/washers you place between/against said carbon fiber washers, the versatile drag system is only dependent on the amount of carbon fiber surface in contact with steel washer surface at a given time under an adjustable amount (star drag) of pressure.
So, versa/versatile drag is a new configuration to the old rule of thumb of 5 pounds of drag for each fiber washer. The stack only changed what specific surface area was in contact with what other specific surface area but the "thickness" of the drag stack never changed. Just the configuration. Wouldn't one set of steel washer/fiber washer and a large spring spacer have accomplished the same thing ? In theory anyway ?
I did notice that in the attached diagram, there is/was no difference in the steel washers. Meaning eared or keyed are all the same and only the carbon fiber had ears to set in the main gear. But isn't the point of a drag system the resistance on the spool pressure drag versus the keyed washers drag pressure on the main gear/reel handle ?
So, it's not a new system, it's just a new way to stack or configure the drag stack ?
It's getting later for me Fellers.
I'm going to bed.
Mic
The eared CF washers act the same as a combination of an eared metal washers and a round CF washers so there's more friction surface for height of the drag stack of the tradtional eared keyed eared configuration
Lots of great information here! And MIC, the diagram from Ted pretty much explains it if you think about it this way (and this pretty much holds true for the majority conventional star drags that I have ever come across): Ears = Gear. Meaning that whatever something with ears on it (whether it is a metal washer or the CF washers in the diagram) MUST do whatever the gear is doing. Keyed = Sleeve. Anything that is keyed (like the metals in Ted's diagram, or like most CF washers in "traditional" drag setups) MUST do whatever the gear sleeve is doing. Fish taking line while the handle is stationary? That means the gear (and anything that has ears) is moving, and anything that is keyed is not. For the Versa Drag diagram on the "light" setting, you can see that all of the eared washers are clumped together, so when a fish is taking drag they will all spin together, and the only friction surface will be the one where the last eared CF meets the first keyed metal - so very little total surface area. By alternating the positions of the metal and eared CF, basically more moving and stationary surfaces are being brought into play; until you get to the "max drag" scenario on the end where there are alternating keyed metal (locked to the gear sleeve) and eared CF (locked to the gear) to gear the greatest surface area.
With this "Versa Drag", my first thought is that it was a cool marketing ploy to reel geeks like as at that point in time. But I can see a "semi" practical side to it (I say semi because if it was totally practical they would probably still be built this way). Here is my thought: any drag stack (I don't care if it is an Ultimate Upgrades 7 stack or a stock Penn Asbestos 3 stack from the 1970s) has two limits, uncompressed height and max compressed height. Any function of drag strength is gong to be related to this (star reel backed all the way off - No drag! Star reel cinched down to maximum tightness using a cheater pipe - Max Drag!) With the Versa drag system, that uncompressed vs. compressed height would never change (it's always the same amount of material getting compressed) so you would always have about the same amount of turns from "No Drag" to "Cheater Pipe Max Drag". Where the Versa drag "may" have had some engineering value - when in any setting, fully backed off is always "zero drag", but in the light setting, fully cranked down "cheater pipe tight" (I hope everyone knows I am joking about that) your maximum drag is going to be limited by the fact there is only ONE friction surface, that last interface between the eared washers that are spinning with the gear, and the keyed washers that are locked to the sleeve. Let's just say for the sake of illustration that max drag in this case is 5#.
Now let's say we follow Ted's diagram and change the arrangement of one of the washers - we now have more friction surfaces between eared washers (spinning with the gear) and keyed washers (locked to the sleeve). So now we have 3 friction surfaces as opposed to the one earlier (I wish I could diagram that - I am not that good) where eared washers and keyed washers will be sliding against each other when the gear is spinning with line going out but the handle and sleeve are stationary. Your max drag at this point will be much higher (you have 3 times the surface area as opposed to the 5# configuration) so you will have higher friction, more drag potential. And I will diagress here just to insert that just because you have 3 times the area you do NOT necessarily have 3X drag - that is beyond what I am trying to explain here BUT....let's pretend that maxed drag while "cheater pipe cinched down" in this arrangement is 15#.
The thing to keep in mind, is that the thickness of the drag stack (the number of turns of the drag star) from "zero drag" to "max drag cinched down" has not changed in these two different configerations - thus, under that "light" setting it would take a certain amount of turns of the star to go from zero 5#, but under the higher setting you would be using the same amount of turns to cover a much higher drag range (hence much less finesse control). That is the one thing that does seem kind of cool about this setup; but again, I'm not sure of "real world" practicality. For most of us if we need a reel with 5# max drag...we buy a smaller reel. Okay, now line capacity comes into play...I'm gonna stop here...I'm probably banned from the forum at this point :) - john
Quote from: Mic on February 04, 2021, 04:34:47 AM
Quote from: Maxed Out on February 03, 2021, 09:48:56 PM
The 113MTL has the "Versa Drag" system. A mostly unknown fact about Versa Drag is the drag stack is made to reconfigure according to your needs. The 113mtl supposedly has 28# of max drag
Completely agree Sir,
It's late for me to....
Alright, so the versa drag system is basically a calculated theory that depending on where or how many steel spacers/washers you place between/against said carbon fiber washers, the versatile drag system is only dependent on the amount of carbon fiber surface in contact with steel washer surface at a given time under an adjustable amount (star drag) of pressure.
So, versa/versatile drag is a new configuration to the old rule of thumb of 5 pounds of drag for each fiber washer. The stack only changed what specific surface area was in contact with what other specific surface area but the "thickness" of the drag stack never changed. Just the configuration. Wouldn't one set of steel washer/fiber washer and a large spring spacer have accomplished the same thing ? In theory anyway ?
I did notice that in the attached diagram, there is/was no difference in the steel washers. Meaning eared or keyed are all the same and only the carbon fiber had ears to set in the main gear. But isn't the point of a drag system the resistance on the spool pressure drag versus the keyed washers drag pressure on the main gear/reel handle ?
So, it's not a new system, it's just a new way to stack or configure the drag stack ?
It's getting later for me Fellers.
I'm going to bed.
Mic
Pretty darn close!
1. The clamping load (from tightening the drag star) multiplied by the coefficient of friction (a constant that describes the smoothness of two surfaces that slide against each each other) gives you the force it takes to start moving (static friction) or keep moving (kinetic friction). The closer the static COF to the dynamic COF, the smoother the drag (static will be higher). A sticky drag is one that keeps rapidly jumping back and forth from stopping and moving due to the large differences between static and dynamic COF.
2. Each pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load. The high drag configuration has more surfaces that slide against each other., and vice versa for the low drag configuration. So YES. You can do the same or similar on another reel, providing there are enough washers, and the surfaces sliding against each other are one fiber and one metal.
3. With less sliding surfaces of the light drag configuration, it takes more turns to reach the same load compared to the high drag configuration. so it should be easier to more finely set to an exact drag setting.
4, Since a star drag reel is not a high tolerance device, adding clamping force tends to tweak things to be less flat and aligned, increasing the difference between static and dynamic COF. This means that we should expect the light drag configuration will be stickier than the high drag configuration when they are both set at the same level (e.g. 10 lbs of pull).
5. If you have a decent amount of line out while playing the fish, the amount of pressure against the side of the line from current or fish changing direction will have a huge and often frequently varying effect on the force at the fish, even though you will not feel this on the reel. So micro-tuning the drag does not really buy you much unless you are fishing a short line straight to the fish with no curve in the line.
6. Sticky drags are more likely to break the line, shake the hook free or wear a larger hole in the fishes mouth, wear on the reel, etc. So minimizing stickiness is usually much more important that getting the drag setting just right. Nothing is more important in a drag than smoothness IMHO.
So just about every fisherman ends up being better off going with the configuration that is the smoothest in all situations, which should also be the highest drag configuration on a Versa Drag. A Versa Drag gives you the choice between a more useful (smoother + higher max drag) and less useful (fine tuning + less max drag) configuration, so why not choose more useful?
-J
It's good to know that the traditional drag configuration (keyed, fiber, eared, fiber) is safe and the problems remain the same: the drag is too sticky and the adjustment range from zero to lock down is too small. I wonder if the two problems are related. If there was a larger adjustment range from zero to lock down could you use the fine control over clamping pressure to reduce or avoid the stickiness?
Quote from: jurelometer on February 04, 2021, 06:08:20 AM
so why not choose more useful?
exactly. why not choose more drag surface area?
Which is exactly what versa drag does - more surface area for a given stack height.
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 04, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
Which is exactly what versa drag does - more surface area for a given stack height.
But is it more surface area for a given drag stack height if the two different surface areas are not in contact when suppressed ?
You know, I'm just learning here, but wouldn't it be a better drag system with different grades of CF washers and different thicknesses of eared/keyed washer of a different material ?
Do CF washers come in veering degrees like sand paper ? 80, 100, 200, 600 and so on ?
Steel, SS, copper, aluminum, brass all have a natural negative reaction to moisture and air, and all at different degrees of corrosion or tarnishing. all have different degrees of hardness as well. Has anyone manufacture ever applied an electro magnet drag system ? Be the first reel in history that needed a battery !
But it all boils down to the coefficient of resistance (drag) against said surface areas when force is applied. Is more drag or drag options better when your only options are drag on, drag off ?
This is my version of " versa drag " I can mix and match 4 different frictions material .
I can put as many as 8 steel and 8 frictions or less by changing my drag nut , 3 different hat lengths.
The base friction can be change "under spool" and i can change the diameter of the base friction.
There is a lot of things in that article i disagree with , but i wish i had that test equipment .
Quote:
But is it more surface area for a given drag stack height if the two different surface areas are not in contact when suppressed ?
Not quite sure what you mean but I'll give it a go.
Each cf washer has two friction surfaces (except the first washer at the bottom of the stack - it has only one functional surface). Because the cf is locked to the gear it can't move relative to the gear. The keyed metal washers, either side of the cf, are locked to the gear sleeve. When drag is applied the dog locks the sleeve. The gear is driven by the spool rotating against the drag. So the gear, with cf washers, rotates. The cf washers are now rotating against the keyed metal washers. Both surfaces, of the cf, are brought into play (except for the bottom cf) because they are sandwiched between metal washers keyed to the sleeve.
Adam, of Motive Fab, makes a similar system as an insert for conventional gears. I wonder if he has any diagrams, facts and figures that would help clarify things?
What i wounder is can the carbon fiber washer ears stand a full or near full lock up , without shearing off ?
The stem is the only means of heat displacement -sink ?
IIRC Sal did some experiments with Adam's insert kit. I don't remeber the figures, but i'm sure it was something north of 60lbs drag on a custom 113 :o
How much drag can you handle ;D
??? ???
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 04, 2021, 03:23:21 PM
Quote:
But is it more surface area for a given drag stack height if the two different surface areas are not in contact when suppressed ?
Not quite sure what you mean but I'll give it a go.
Each cf washer has two friction surfaces (except the first washer at the bottom of the stack - it has only one functional surface). Because the cf is locked to the gear it can't move relative to the gear. The keyed metal washers, either side of the cf, are locked to the gear sleeve. When drag is applied the dog locks the sleeve. The gear is driven by the spool rotating against the drag. So the gear, with cf washers, rotates. The cf washers are now rotating against the keyed metal washers. Both surfaces, of the cf, are brought into play (except for the bottom cf) because they are sandwiched between metal washers keyed to the sleeve.
Adam, of Motive Fab, makes a similar system as an insert for conventional gears. I wonder if he has any diagrams, facts and figures that would help clarify things?
Okay,
So things are getting a bit clearing with the understanding, but it appears to lead to more questions.
Surface area and applied pressure for a given stack height. Got it. But in looking at different drag stacks. It would appear that the correct stack always has one more keyed washer than eared washer. If were chasing service area, the keyed washer has less service area than the eared washer.
Would we not want one more eared washer vs. one more keyed and still keep the odd number ? 3 Eared washers w/ 2 Keyed washers opposite of the current HT-100 Kit ?
Now I'm really scratching my bald #### head !!!!!!!!!
Mic
Just to reiterate jurelometer's ever-illuminating words re: surface area, lest we head back down that rabbit hole again:
Quote"...drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load."
and
QuoteEach pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.
So it's the 'multiple' of surfaces, rather than the 'singular' surface area per se.
I love this stuff - it's absolutely fascinating and utterly confounding in equal measure! ;) :D
Great thread lads.
Cheers, Justin
Quote from: redsetta on February 04, 2021, 08:07:03 PM
Just to reiterate jurelometer's ever-illuminating words re: surface area, lest we head back down that rabbit hole again:
Quote"...drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load."
and QuoteEach pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.
So it's the 'multiple' of surfaces, rather than the 'singular' surface area per se.
I love this stuff - it's absolutely fascinating and utterly confounding in equal measure! ;) :D
Great thread lads.
Cheers, Justin
Point or points taken Sir,
Two surface area(s) per washer face
Thank you Justin
Mic
Quote from: alantani on February 04, 2021, 07:04:29 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 04, 2021, 06:08:20 AM
so why not choose more useful?
exactly. why not choose more drag surface area?
Yep, nobody says you have to crank it down as far as you can. Even the Versa Drag in the heavy configuration (stock) can be fished light if you wanted to.
Quote from: oc1 on February 04, 2021, 06:54:18 AM
It's good to know that the traditional drag configuration (keyed, fiber, eared, fiber) is safe and the problems remain the same: the drag is too sticky and the adjustment range from zero to lock down is too small. I wonder if the two problems are related. If there was a larger adjustment range from zero to lock down could you use the fine control over clamping pressure to reduce or avoid the stickiness?
No. Increasing clamping pressure leads to stickiness. If you need more clamping pressure for the same amount of drag it probably will be stickier.
If you want fine tuning, the better design is finer drag knob threads without reducing the number of sliding surfaces. For reasons mentioned in my previous post, I think we generally overvalue the usefulness of fine tuning.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 04, 2021, 03:41:56 PM
What i wounder is can the carbon fiber washer ears stand a full or near full lock up , without shearing off ?
The stem is the only means of heat displacement -sink ?
It depends on now thick the drag washers are. The washer have a resin impregnated solid core, only the surfaces are dry. Stock eared fiber washers are pretty thick. The aftermarket custom stacks do use thinner eared fiber washers in order to get more sliding surfaces in the stack, but this is offset by each washer bearing less of the total load.
The posts that show testing of these custom stacks until the point of failure do show ear damage, But most reels ar not designed to handle this much drag anyways. The folks that make these stacks have told us that as long as you fish these reels with a reasonably sane drag setting, you will get smoother drags from the reduced clamping force, meaning that the reel should have a higher maximum reliable useful (non sticky) drag than the stock setup.
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 04, 2021, 11:32:49 AM
Which is exactly what versa drag does - more surface area for a given stack height.
I think we are talking about two different things here. There are other reels with eared drag washers/keyed metal washers - agree that this provides the maximum amount of sliding surfaces for a set of washers. Penn's claim on the Versa Drag is that there is benefit by simply rearranging the washers to change the number of sliding surfaces. Several of us don't see much benefit in reducing the number of sliding surfaces for the reasons listed in this thread.
Quote from: redsetta on February 04, 2021, 08:07:03 PM
Just to reiterate jurelometer's ever-illuminating words re: surface area, lest we head back down that rabbit hole again:
Quote"...drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load."
and QuoteEach pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.
So it's the 'multiple' of surfaces, rather than the 'singular' surface area per se.
I love this stuff - it's absolutely fascinating and utterly confounding in equal measure! ;) :D
Great thread lads.
Cheers, Justin
Backtracking a tiny bit, with some swollen head reduction: :)
If you make the hole in the center of the washer larger, the surface area decreases, but the average braking distance per revolution of the drag surfaces increase, meaning that more motion is converted to heat per revolution. In this case a smaller surface area actual leads to more stopping work per revolution. So messing with diameter will affect max drag, but not because of the change in surface area.
As you and Tiddlebasher noted, tribology is weird stuff :)
-J
I think you are all overthinking this. There are situations, such as fishing for king mackerel, where a low amount of maximum drag is desirable. With the Versa drag, you can limit the maximum drag available without buying a special reel such as an Accurate Lite Line Special. This makes the reel more versatile.
Quote from: day0ne on February 04, 2021, 10:27:05 PM
I think you are all overthinking this. There are situations, such as fishing for king mackerel, where a low amount of maximum drag is desirable. With the Versa drag, you can limit the maximum drag available without buying a special reel such as an Accurate Lite Line Special. This makes the reel more versatile.
Overthinking is why we come here :)
With a lever drag, you need to choose reel with a cam that has a specific drag range. But the Versa Drag is a star drag system. Just use the max configuration. If you want a lower drag, just don't turn the star as many times. If you want to use the same reel for another purpose requiring higher drag, you don't have to take it apart to rearrange the washers. And the drag will be smoother, even at lower settings. This makes the reel more versatile without a screwdriver and a wrench :)
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on February 05, 2021, 12:53:02 AM
Quote from: day0ne on February 04, 2021, 10:27:05 PM
I think you are all overthinking this. There are situations, such as fishing for king mackerel, where a low amount of maximum drag is desirable. With the Versa drag, you can limit the maximum drag available without buying a special reel such as an Accurate Lite Line Special. This makes the reel more versatile.
Overthinking is why we come here :)
With a lever drag, you need to choose reel with a cam that has a specific drag range. But the Versa Drag is a star drag system. Just use the max configuration. If you want a lower drag, just don't turn the star as many times. If you want to use the same reel for another purpose requiring higher drag, you don't have to take it apart to rearrange the washers. And the drag will be smoother, even at lower settings. This makes the reel more versatile without a screwdriver and a wrench :)
-J
If want to eliminate any chance of applying too much drag in a lite line situation, the Versa drag makes sense. It stops you from making a mistake in the heat of battle. You don't see this as much on the West Coast but it is more common on the East and Gulf coasts. Lite drag is very common in tournament king fishing. No room for mistakes.
And while Jurelometer brought up the subject of drag cam profiles in lever drags (which is a dark art unto itself) there is also the option on many lever drag reels of one (or more!) adjustable stop points on the drag quadrant that require depressing a button to shift beyond wherever the stop is set. You still have max drag potential, you just have a couple of check points to pass before you get there. - john
It has not been that long ago that there was a discussion of Adam's Motive Fabrication eared carbon fiber washers and modified main gears. I was not paying much attention but think there were two instances of carbon fiber ears being broken off under pressure. Adam has not made them available for a while now so we will probably never know any more than that. Sal was a fan of Adam and his products. I wish both of them were here to comment.
Quote from: jurelometer on February 04, 2021, 08:41:53 PM
Quote from: oc1 on February 04, 2021, 06:54:18 AM
If there was a larger adjustment range from zero to lock down could you use the fine control over clamping pressure to reduce or avoid the stickiness?
No. Increasing clamping pressure leads to stickiness. If you need more clamping pressure for the same amount of drag it probably will be stickier.
-J
Yes, but my point was that being able to fine tune the clamping pressure by increasing the adjustment range in the star may let you get closer to stickiness without it actually becoming too sticky.
OK, we cannot dance around this other question any longer. Dry drag or greased drag? :) :)
-steve
Greased drag, it reduces stickiness at start up. But is for CF drags. Rudy
I see the benefits in having a greased drag system. Water damage prevention being one reason for.
You know, I've been looking at as many drag stack pictures as I can find. One thing I noticed that most fiber washers being replaced from reels are as smooth as the metal washers. Almost glazed but a flat smooth surface across the entire surface.
Now, I've never opened a brand new reel to look at it's drag stack. Do manufactures send them out with flat surface fiber washers ?
What I'm getting at is that CF Washers are not a flat smooth surface across the entire surface. Just guessing, but it would appear that about only 60-65% of the CF washer is actually making contact with the steel washer when compressed. Can you imaging your trucks break pads having that design ?
Is there a CF washer that is polished smooth across the entire surface to give you 95 - 100% contact ?
Maybe if a washer stack had a mixture of smooth CF washers and Rough CF washers in the same stack ? Maybe the pressure differential would be more VERSAtile ?
When I read Alan's pectoral on the Calcutta 400, damn nice pectoral Alan, he pointed out because of the thickness of the CF washers that you need to bend the eared washer ears down in order to keep them in the grove of the main gear. But the washers that are being replaced are glass smooth. Alan also mentioned reusing the old metal washers and being careful cleaning them because they will break easy. But the CF washers going back in are rough or abrasive looking. But again, I don't see how 100% contact is made between the CF washer and the steel washer ?
Would the new CF washers break the existing metal washers if too much drag was applied ?
Just an observation
Mic
CF drag washers may look slightly "flat" or "shiny" but they still have a coefficient of friction - ie they will still work. A quick rub with 'your solvent of choice' (not really necessary but whatever ::)) and a re-grease and you are good to go. It works, and has worked for years, don't over think it.
Quote:
When I read Alan's pectoral on the Calcutta 400, damn nice pectoral Alan, he pointed out because of the thickness of the CF washers that you need to bend the eared washer ears down in order to keep them in the grove of the main gear. But the washers that are being replaced are glass smooth. Alan also mentioned reusing the old metal washers and being careful cleaning them because they will break easy. But the CF washers going back in are rough or abrasive looking. But again, I don't see how 100% contact is made between the CF washer and the steel washer ?
Would the new CF washers break the existing metal washers if too much drag was applied ?
Where is Alan's 'pectoral on the Calcutta 400' - I know where my pectorals are :D
Oh and CF washers will never break the existing metal washers.
I don't open a reel until I have to. But, I can't remember removing used CF washers that were not slick or glazed from wear and embedded grease. Maybe it's embedded grease mixed with debris? The only reason to remove them is to scrub, and clean, and raise the grain a little.
Since the CF is flexible but squashed between to metal washers, I don't see how it could be made any flatter. There has been discussion here (Mo65 I think) about making the metal washers flatter by lapping them. Because of the way the metal washers are stamped, there may be a slight raised lip on one side and rounded edges on the other side.
Quote from: oc1 on February 06, 2021, 06:15:18 AM
I don't open a reel until I have to. But, I can't remember removing used CF washers that were not slick or glazed from wear and embedded grease. Maybe it's embedded grease mixed with debris? The only reason to remove them is to scrub, and clean, and raise the grain a little.
Since the CF is flexible but squashed between to metal washers, I don't see how it could be made any flatter. There has been discussion here (Mo65 I think) about making the metal washers flatter by lapping them. Because of the way the metal washers are stamped, there may be a slight raised lip on one side and rounded edges on the other side.
Not to mention a slight cupping deformation from the stamping process. You can sometimes see this on the washer from where the drag washer rubs more on the inner diameter. When I see this, I mark the washer with a sharpie, put 800 grit wet/dry on a mirror and lightly take off the high spots. I follow that with 1500 grit wet/dry and 3000 grit trizact.
The washers don't need to be flat, but the high spot should be a flat band near the outer diameter, never the inner diameter.
What if the washers are cupped ,but have a enough spring to flatten out under clamping force .
Variable surfaces ?
Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 06, 2021, 02:17:11 PM
What if the washers are cupped ,but have a enough spring to flatten out under clamping force .
Variable surfaces ?
If the clamping pressure flattens the cupped washers, more pressure would be applied to the CF drag washer by the high spots, less by the flattened spots, and that would be undesirable.
If the metal washers are cupped I just arrange them to all be in the same direction when assembling them. If they are heavily cupped I discard them & install new ones. If you want to take the time to lap them flat that's fine to get a tiny bit more out of the drags. If you are in the repair/service of reels I am sure your customer will not want an extra hour or two added to their bill unless it's a custom job. If you want to do it for yourself, your time is your own. Rudy
x2 Rudy. Stack 'em all in the same direction it works fine.
I use to lap the metals flat - Not anymore - life's too short. The difference is sometimes measurable but minimal.
If you want ultra flat washers pay a visit to one of the online suppliers like Bryan or Dawn - and have beer while waiting 'til they are delivered.
Yeah,
I do tend to over think things sometimes. That's just me
So, I've learned what the Penn Versa Drag system is. I understand the concept, just don't understand why. If any reel is capable of up to X pounds of drag pressure, said same reel is capable of 0 pounds of drag pressure. Doesn't matter 0 - 30, it's still capable of the minimum or the maximum. Don't think I'll be using an ABU 5000 to hunt yellow fin tuna or yellow cat flatheads. I'll be choosing a different reel/different drag for different species. Pretty sure you all do to.
I've never given any thought to lapping/polishing metal drag washers when rebuilding/replacing drag washers. I certainly will now. The concept of high spots coming in contact with the CF washer first doesn't give complete surface contact. If it's concaved on the front, it's convex on the back. Condition would determine if it goes in the reel or in the trash.
I tend to sharpen a lot of knives for myself and others. I like using Arkansas oil stones. Less scratches in the blade. Soft stone can take metal down pretty quick. Hard stone polishes the edge. Bull hide leather and some aluminum oxide powder will make a razor edge. I have a couple of old stones used for straight razors and scalpels. Rarely used really.
Just wonder if a glass smooth surface of a metal drag washer is preferable to a metal drag washer with a little grit and bite to it against a greased CF washer? Yep, over thinking it again....
Mic
Mic
Quote from: Mic on February 06, 2021, 06:35:14 PM
Just wonder if a glass smooth surface of a metal drag washer is preferable to a metal drag washer with a little grit and bite to it against a greased CF washer? Yep, over thinking it again....
Mic
I was wondering the same thing. But, instead of an Arkansas stone I was thinking a belt sander.
Quote from: SteveL on February 06, 2021, 02:42:41 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 06, 2021, 02:17:11 PM
What if the washers are cupped ,but have a enough spring to flatten out under clamping force .
Variable surfaces ?
If the clamping pressure flattens the cupped washers, more pressure would be applied to the CF drag washer by the high spots, less by the flattened spots, and that would be undesirable.
Yes Sir
Agree completely
I would think the amount of pressure needed to flatten out a metal washer would be counter intuitive to the desired drag force. The weakest link in your fishing reel would be found pretty quick
:o If you ever did a brake job on a car and the rotors were turned , they are some what rough , but 3 days later they glass smooth .
Some drag stacks have cup washers on top to act as springs , the ones that people want to know which way to install them . < > > <.
What if they were in the middle of the stack with friction in between them ?
There is a more simple (cheaper) way to increase the drag in star drag reels.
Glue cf washers under the metal washers with square hole. Its the same effect with washers with ears. They can not rotate between the metal washers.
My test with a 114H was as foll: original ex works cofiguration max drag 5kg from full spool. With three glued on cf washers resulted in 17kg. More than required....
The avantage is no need to buy a new main and pinion gear and cf washers with ears. Test it and let us know your results.
Quote from: Wolli on February 07, 2021, 03:51:38 PM
There is a more simple (cheaper) way to increase the drag in star drag reels.
Glue cf washers under the metal washers with square hole. Its the same effect with washers with ears. They can not rotate between the metal washers.
My test with a 114H was as foll: original ex works cofiguration max drag 5kg from full spool. With three glued on cf washers resulted in 17kg. More than required....
The avantage is no need to buy a new main and pinion gear and cf washers with ears. Test it and let us know your results.
You just made my "over thinking" go into overdrive !
With one metal washer having a glued CF washer on it, interesting thought to say the least. Would having same said metal washer with a CF glued on both sides of it provide better friction with less jerking in the drag ?
Mic
Quote from: Wolli on February 07, 2021, 03:51:38 PM
There is a more simple (cheaper) way to increase the drag in star drag reels.
Glue cf washers under the metal washers with square hole. Its the same effect with washers with ears. They can not rotate between the metal washers.
My test with a 114H was as foll: original ex works cofiguration max drag 5kg from full spool. With three glued on cf washers resulted in 17kg. More than required....
The avantage is no need to buy a new main and pinion gear and cf washers with ears. Test it and let us know your results.
Gluing the washers to the metal washers makes no difference in the resulting drag. Your drag stack has the same number of metal and carbon washers with or without glue, and each carbon washer still has only one sliding surface. Carbon fiber washers do not rotate or slide freely between two metal washers. One side will stick and the other will slide. The glue simply determines in advance which side will stick and which side will slide.
The goal of the versa drag is to use thicker eared carbon fiber washers to replace the eared metal washers. All but the first cf washer (sitting in the bottom of the gear) will have two active friction surfaces. The first cf washer sitting in the gear need not be eared since it will have only one active friction surface. For the rest, you only have slotted metal washers and eared carbon fiber washers, which should allow for a little space savings to allow for an extra cf washer or two.
With versa drag, 1 standard cf washer + 2 eared cf washers = 5 standard cf washers in a drag stack. If space allows for 1 or 2 more eared washers, you could have the equivalent of 7 or 9 standard cf washers in a stack. More friction surfaces is what provides the extra drag. And for any equivalent drag setting, versa drag will have less clamping pressure than the standard drag stack, which results in smoother drag.
By Jove I think he's got it ;D
i always strive to increase drag surface area. maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it. :-\
Quote from: alantani on February 07, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
i always strive to increase drag surface area. maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it. :-\
As I stated earlier, it's for lite line fishing. It's so you can't add too much drag. It's not a West Coast thing.
Quote from: alantani on February 07, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
i always strive to increase drag surface area. maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it. :-\
It is best to increase the mean effective radius of the drag surface and to increase the number of drag surfaces. Increasing/Decreasing the drag surface area affects primarily the rate of wear of the drag surface without affecting the resulting drag.
You can look at a standard cf drag washer in a gear -- typically nearly tight on the ID and about 1-2 mm short on the OD (loose in the gear, but nearly tight on the gear sleeve). If you replace that washer with one that is nearly tight on gear (the OD) but the ID only goes to about half way between the gear and the driveshaft, you have reduced the drag surface area significantly while increasing the drag noticeably (by increasing the mean effective radius). The wear rate of the drag washer will increase somewhat.
The versa drag washers work not by changing the mean effective radius of the drag surface but by increasing (doubling) the number of drag surfaces in play. You can do both, by increasing the inner diameter on the versa drag washers. By doubling the drag surfaces with versa drag, you also double the drag surface area, but area is not really a variable that affects the resulting drag (rate of wear, yes, but not the resulting drag.)
I just had a low profile baitcaster open. It had carbon fiber washers about 1.25" diameter, but the inner diameter was about 1.06" diameter. A little thin 3/16" wide ring of drag surface that minimizes surface area, maximizes drag, and maximizes the rate of wear. Not the best design, but it works well until it doesn't and the worn out drag washers have to be replaced.
This is a pic of a Shimano 400 Tranx and a Curado 300. Minimal CF or Dartanium II, not sure, on the Curado yet only 4lbs drag difference 22 listed for Tranx and 18 for the Curado.
I'm not into all this stuff like you guys but I thought the drag in the 3 stack would be significantly more considering the drag washer surface area?
The versa drag setup in the 113mtl eliminates friction from one side of the bottom drag washer. Now I understand why Alan said versa drag was a step in the wrong direction
Quote from: Lunker Larry on February 07, 2021, 07:05:39 PM
This is a pic of a Shimano 400 Tranx and a Curado 300. Minimal CF or Dartanium II, not sure, on the Curado yet only 4lbs drag difference 22 listed for Tranx and 18 for the Curado.
I'm not into all this stuff like you guys but I thought the drag in the 3 stack would be significantly more considering the drag washer surface area?
The drag washers appear to be carbon fiber about the same OD and ID. (I like that ratio of OD to ID, much better for drag than taking the ID all the way down to the drive shaft).
I don't know what is going on with the Tranx. Three drag washers should have nearly the 3 times the drag of a single washer. I suspect that they had a max drag in mind to prevent damage to the reel and set up the star drag compression and spring washers to not exceed that max drag. That said, there should be less compression on the 3 stack resulting in only slightly more max drag but much smoother drag compared to the single washer.
Quote from: Maxed Out on February 07, 2021, 07:29:59 PM
The versa drag setup in the 113mtl eliminates friction from one side of the bottom drag washer. Now I understand why Alan said versa drag was a step in the wrong direction
That is not entirely accurate. If you compare with a standard drag stack, each carbon fiber drag washer has only one side that contributes to drag. In the versa drag setup all but the first contribute both sides as drag surfaces. The first one can not contribute two sides, it just functions as a standard drag washer with one drag surface. Stating it eliminates friction from one side really should be restated as eliminating one side as a friction surface (i.e. drag surface). You can't eliminate something that never existed and could not exist.
If you want to play with the drag stack to lighten the drag, you can. But if you messed with a standard drag stack like that you'd have metal sliding on metal if you weren't careful how you stacked it. But no mater how you stack the versa drag, you can't break it.
Quote from: day0ne on February 07, 2021, 06:48:39 PM
Quote from: alantani on February 07, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
i always strive to increase drag surface area. maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it. :-\
As I stated earlier, it's for lite line fishing. It's so you can't add too much drag. It's not a West Coast thing.
Years ago, Ed Asner was the guest host on SNL, and they did a skit where he was the chief engineer at a nuclear power plant, but about to retire. His parting words were simply "Just remember, you can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor" and then he left. His underlings separated into factions. One argued that putting too much water in was bad so you have to limit the water. The other argued that can't put too much in so any amount of water was not too much. As this went on, they cut to Ed Asner reclined on a beach sipping a drink, while the woman next to him points and asks what's that. He replies "A nuclear fireball. Just remember you can't stare at a nuclear fireball too long" as he was leaving. Puzzled, the woman continues staring at the the nuclear fireball.
I think the phrase "you can't add too much drag" neatly sums up fishermen, but as with the SNL sketch there are two opposing factions.
Quote from: alantani on February 07, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
i always strive to increase drag surface area. maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it. :-\
Alan,
I think I see now. I believe your chief complaint with versa drag is that people can swap around the washers in odd configurations, effectively dropping from the equivalent of a 7 stack to a 5 stack, 3 stack or 1 stack. This may be the reduction of drag surface area you mention, while for me it is a reduction of drag surfaces (area not being a factor here).
Within limits I don't have a big problem with some people wanting lighter drag, but this would probably be best handled by adjusting the star drag, changing the spring washers or at most removing (not rearranging) one drag washer so that the star drag gives less compressive force.
Quote from: SteveL on February 07, 2021, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Maxed Out on February 07, 2021, 07:29:59 PM
The versa drag setup in the 113mtl eliminates friction from one side of the bottom drag washer. Now I understand why Alan said versa drag was a step in the wrong direction
That is not entirely accurate. If you compare with a standard drag stack, each carbon fiber drag washer has only one side that contributes to drag. In the versa drag setup all but the first contribute both sides as drag surfaces. The first one can not contribute two sides, it just functions as a standard drag washer with one drag surface. Stating it eliminates friction from one side really should be restated as eliminating one side as a friction surface (i.e. drag surface). You can't eliminate something that never existed and could not exist.
If you want to play with the drag stack to lighten the drag, you can. But if you messed with a standard drag stack like that you'd have metal sliding on metal if you weren't careful how you stacked it. But no mater how you stack the versa drag, you can't break it.
A stock 5 stack 113h does have friction on both sides of each drag washer, especially when reeling on dead hanging weight. Versa drag eliminates the bottom washer from friction on one side by having it keyed to the gear. That's all i was saying
yup!!! ;D
Quote from: Maxed Out on February 07, 2021, 08:57:10 PM
A stock 5 stack 113h does have friction on both sides of each drag washer, especially when reeling on dead hanging weight. Versa drag eliminates the bottom washer from friction on one side by having it keyed to the gear. That's all i was saying
I think the issue is semantics. The carbon fiber washers all have friction on both sides whether they contribute to the drag or not. We are concerned with surfaces that slide and can contribute to the drag. All cf washers in a standard drag stack that is turning have static friction on one side and sliding friction on the other. Sliding friction is less that static friction so once one side starts moving, the other side will stay stuck. So only one side contributes to drag as a friction surface.
All five cf washers in a standard drag stack contribute one friction surface each. In versa drag, the bottom washer still contributes one friction surface, and all the others contribute two (unless you rearrange the stack so they can't slide). There is no way for the bottom washer to contribute more than one friction surface, regardless of whether its round, eared, greased, dry or glued to the bottom of the gear
It is the same as in the example of the round cf washers glued to the slotted washers. One side of the the cf washer was going to stick and the other slide anyway, so gluing one side to a washer (or keying it to a gear) is simply deciding which side is going to slide.
.
Quote from: alantani on February 07, 2021, 09:10:00 PM
yup!!! ;D
I see. I don't really approve of weird drag stacks, but I've seen a few where people put the metal washers in the wrong order by mistake, and either they got little or no drag or the star can loosen under drag. With only two kinds of washers, if a versa drag is stacked funny, someone must have done it on purpose, and it at least still functions to some degree.
But if Barney only puts one bullet in his six shooter, I'm not sure I have a problem with that.
(Edit: Since this is an international forum, I should provide some background on the Barney reference above. Barney Fife (a fictional character) was an inept deputy sheriff on the Andy Griffith Show from the 1960s. Due to a habit of misfiring his gun, he was only permitted one bullet to be carried in his pocket. If you want to turn the equivalent of a 7 stack drag to the equivalent of a single drag washer (like barney's six shooter with one bullet), well that's OK )
I'm sorry Alan - I don't have a clue what you are talking about :-\
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 08, 2021, 01:34:24 AM
I'm sorry Alan - I don't have a clue what you are talking about :-\
I think just above he was agreeing with my previous message regarding his chief complaint with versa drag:
Quote from: SteveL on February 07, 2021, 08:33:31 PM
Quote from: alantani on February 07, 2021, 05:37:42 PM
i always strive to increase drag surface area. maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it. :-\
Alan,
I think I see now. I believe your chief complaint with versa drag is that people can swap around the washers in odd configurations, effectively dropping from the equivalent of a 7 stack to a 5 stack, 3 stack or 1 stack. This may be the reduction of drag surface area you mention, while for me it is a reduction of drag surfaces (area not being a factor here).
Within limits I don't have a big problem with some people wanting lighter drag, but this would probably be best handled by adjusting the star drag, changing the spring washers or at most removing (not rearranging) one drag washer so that the star drag gives less compressive force.