Im in the market for a good slow pitch jigging Blank for use it on North Sea of Cortez, Baja, Gonzaga Bay area and BOLA Bay of los Angeles (similar to fishing Cedros), I need only the blank since I will build the rod myself, I have read good things about the jigging blanks from UC Zeus 3 and Challenger xtreme CXJ-602 but dont know the difference on those blanks, also debating between those two blanks and the BH capecod special 250gr
US Zeus is $122.00
UC CXJ-602 $122.00
BH CapeCod 250gr $160
because of the price Im might go with UC blanks but any one can tell me the difference on the UC zeus line and CXJ?
I have never fished a purist Slowpitch technique but seems attractive to try it, currently using my Trevala 5.8XXH for Flutterfly jigs but I currently on the process to sell my factory rods so, I need a jigging rod to fill that space on my arsenal
as you know my local fisheris dont have large fish or heavy ones but from time to time you can get a nice 35# YT or a 25-35# pink grouper (Baqueta grouper), so, its better to have rod with the hump to get them from the structure from deep zones (normally those big guys are fished with livebait ), regular good fish on the zone are around 10#-20#
Alex, the difference will be in how far down they begin to load. They will have different feels to them. Now Alex I'm not a jig fisherman. I will be working hard this year to change that. I am sorry I cant give you a more definite answer. But jig fishing is at present completely outside my Wheel House.
I can say there are strong feelings about which of these two companies make the best jig blank with most on the east coast seeming to use Black Hole jig sticks & in Cali more UC. If durability is an issue with rods getting knocked about, fishing from a Panga etc. I would gravitate toward the United Composites line. They are sometimes, not always, a bit heaver. The Black Hole Nano Tech material used is a different animal when compared to others. This is not a bad thing.
I wish sometime I could bring 4 fists full of rods down there & you & I could could fish together with all of them testing them & come back here & give our honest thoughts. That would be a most wonderful thing... Jeff
well, to tell the truth I leaning towards UC Zeus just because its bit cheaper and UC have a great reputation, also I consider BH blanks to belong a trully Slowpitch tech rod I dont know it can be use it for another way of fishing maybe cast a lure if you see a feeding freenzy and dont have another setup ready on the boat, we dont have many deep zones here to try a purist Slowpitch rod/reel/lures so, I dont know how many times this specialized rod will see action, but its a technique that really attracts me to try it.
our friend Dr. Johntuttle posted few years ago on BD that UC Zeus 3 has a kind of similar feel of the BH capecod 250gr, so that means a lot and that blank can deal with a 25# drag, thats a lot pretty sure I can deal with any local YT or grouper
https://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/threads/united-composites-zeus-3.462426/
yep, and we can never forget the rod durability when the rod is banging on a panga when there are not enough rod holders, driving a boat on the sea of cortez is different than driving a boat on the Ocean, maybe because is a narrow gulf but 80% of the time its a bumpy ride driving over small waves all the time, at the end of the fishing day you normally have a lowerback ache, that bumpy ride for a rod that is not on a rod holder is killer for the finish, guides and structure, well, currently most of the sport fishing pangas are modified to be more comformable, I started fishing on modified pangas for sportfishing just 5 years ago which are very similar to a nice sporty boat with nice seats and plenty of rodholders but from time to time the nice panga boat you were going to get is not working and the only working boat is a normal commercial fishing panga, you're more worried on your rods than your lowerback LOL, so take that panga, cancel the trip or look for another charter.
for the reason explained above, 10 years ago I had my nice brand fishing gear for when fishing on nice sporty boats and also have my Penn 4/0, senator rod, 320gti, sabre rod for fishing on non-modified pangas when a local friend invite me to fish.
I remember John posting that thread. Alex my dream boat is a modified panga. Most likely with inboard motor. A very useful, utilitarian style boat. I would want the console pushed as far forward as possible. Leaving as much room as possible for fellas to fish... Jeff
My (contrarian) $0.02:
What a makes a slow pitch rod a slow pitch rod is that it is bendy (to help flick the jig at the end of the lifting stroke), and relatively short and light (to make it easier to actively work the rod for an extended time).
Making a blank bendy, light and durable is easier than stiff, light and durable: just cut the cloth so that the weave runs at a greater angle. Since the stiff fibers are not running the length of the blank, this makes the blank less stiff. And since the fibers are now criss-crossing in spirals around the blank, the strain is more evenly distributed, increasing hoop strength. So fewer layers are needed for the same or greater hoop strength, making the blank lighter. When you see the "dual helix", "w-weave", "super magic double spiral nanobuzzword tech" terms bandied about, it is just this diagonal weave. The stiffer a light rod has to be, the less diagonal weave can be used at the expense of hoop strength.
And the more uniform the bend, the less complicated the work of figuring out tapers and layout schedule. A blank maker has to be much more on their game and willing to expirement more to build a lightweight and durable casting blank.
If the rod is built with the reel seat fairly far from the butt, the "swing weight" (mass multiplied by distance from the fulcrum) is usually overwhelmingly influenced by the weight of the reel. How much effort it takes to move a lever depends not only on the total weight. but how that weight is distributed. That is why jigging reels are preferred to be as small and light as possible. That is also why a difference of an ounce or two in blank weight is hard to notice.
This is a long winded way of saying that the functional/technical demands on these type of jigging blanks is not very high, so it seems tougher to me to justify paying a premium. Just go with the cheapest blank with a good reputation for durability. You might want to add Rainshadow to your list of candidates. A lighter reel is a bonus.
Plus these blanks are optimized for drop jigging, so they do not cast well at all, leaving you stuck to bringing an extra rod to toss irons at the boils. The last thing that I want to bring on a panga with a couple other fishermen is even more rods.
If you want to think out of the box a bit, find a nice older, lighter fiberglass blank, like a Calstar in the 10 -25 lb range, and build out a 6.5 footer that can actually cast a bit, and is plenty bendy for working jigs. Just print up an Alextech Baja SupreJig decal and start your own line of rods :)
The real benefit on these new jigging systems are the jigs themselves, designed for strong action on both the drop and vertical retrieve, usually at very specific velocities and start/stops. The special rods, reels, gloves, hat, logo shirts, socks, shoes and underwear are much less important, but are driving tons of revenue for the industry. I built exactly one jigging rod, but am still designing vertical jigs one after another. The rods are pretty boring for me. The jigs are a different story.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 09, 2021, 08:42:36 PM
I remember John posting that thread. Alex my dream boat is a modified panga. Most likely with inboard motor. A very useful, utilitarian style boat. I would want the console pushed as far forward as possible. Leaving as much room as possible for fellas to fish... Jeff
You will only want to ride in the front of a panga in steep wind chop once. The smart old pangeros won't even put a center console in one. They ride in the back in comfort with a tiller steer outboard. Passengers are seated forward as a spray guard :)
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on March 09, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 09, 2021, 08:42:36 PM
I remember John posting that thread. Alex my dream boat is a modified panga. Most likely with inboard motor. A very useful, utilitarian style boat. I would want the console pushed as far forward as possible. Leaving as much room as possible for fellas to fish... Jeff
You will only want to ride in the front of a panga in steep wind chop once. The smart old pangeros won't even put a center console in one. They ride in the back in comfort with a tiller steer outboard. Passengers are seated forward as a spray guard :)
-J
J, I understand where your coming from. With hard head ideas being inbred into my head from the start... that being, anything other than an aluminum flat bottom boat being unworthy of fishing the river. I know of teeth rattling rides that can send some looking for a chiropractor.
With that in mind I did say "MODIFIED" panga. To most panga hard heads they are most likely not a panga at all... But the ride is quite soft in all but roughest water... It's All Good ... Jeff
Quote from: jurelometer on March 09, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
...... If you want to think out of the box a bit, find a nice older, lighter fiberglass blank, like a Calstar in the 10 -25 lb range, and build out a 6.5 footer that can actually cast a bit, and is plenty bendy for working jigs. Just print up an Alextech Baja SupreJig decal and start your own line of rods :)
that remained me that I already went that route https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32640.0
built a "slow pitch" rod outta an old glass super bendy Roddy rod, the rod was build on a similar fashion of a Slow pitch high dollar rod, at least in appearance, guides were not an expensive ones and grips were some EVA short ones, but that rod actually lifted 15# weight with no Problema (just like the adds of those premium SP rods again)
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32640.0
(https://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32640.0;attach=96052;image)
(https://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32640.0;attach=96042;image)
I forgot to install the "Alextech Baja SupreJig" decal on it, maybe on next one.
Quote from: jurelometer on March 09, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
..This is a long winded way of saying that the functional/technical demands on these type of jigging blanks is not very high, so it seems tougher to me to justify paying a premium. Just go with the cheapest blank with a good reputation for durability. You might want to add Rainshadow to your list of candidates. A lighter reel is a bonus.
feel the same way (but I can change my mind) about paying premium for a too specialized rod, that mostly why I was eyeballing the UC blank, the rainshadow true slowpitch 100% new tech graphite blank is under the new Revelation line and it cost more than the UC blank, go figure, its $130 while the UC is $122, the knife jig blank is under the rx/glass composite line and it cost around $70, on my mind I might spend those extra $50 more bucks for a trusty USA made blank with a lot of good reputation company for a rod that will hopefully last many years, but expeding extra $50 its not the same that spend $90 more for the BH capecod blank.
by the way, I currently have an extra RCLB70XL 7ft 10-25 composite rainshadow blank, I built one and (you know me), and when I trying an extreme Static test I dead lifted 9# with no problem with it and it had a pronunded bend with 8# drag, so according to "your (contrarian) $0.02" I might just cut that blank from the but to get a 5'8" blank, pretty sure it will bend a lot more since the graphite is on the butt of the blank and put my signature on it ;D ;D
attaching a pic of a guy lifting 5kg (11#) and also 10kg (22#) with the same blank, so, IT is a bendy blank
I have also been debating on spending the dollars for a slow pitch set up. In S. Florida the Temple Reef slow pitch rods are very popular. The Gravitate and the Levitate models are the ones most commonly used. It is a investment that requires a lot of research.
It seems to me that most of the 'real' slow pitch rods are about having the rod put the right action on the jig, not fighting the fish. They pretty much point the rod at the fish and fight it with just the reel. That old Roddy had way more back than the high-end slow pitch rods!
[
Quote from: steelfish on March 10, 2021, 01:02:03 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on March 09, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
...... If you want to think out of the box a bit, find a nice older, lighter fiberglass blank, like a Calstar in the 10 -25 lb range, and build out a 6.5 footer that can actually cast a bit, and is plenty bendy for working jigs. Just print up an Alextech Baja SupreJig decal and start your own line of rods :)
that remained me that I already went that route https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32640.0
built a "slow pitch" rod outta an old glass super bendy Roddy rod, the rod was build on a similar fashion of a Slow pitch high dollar rod, at least in appearance, guides were not an expensive ones and grips were some EVA short ones, but that rod actually lifted 15# weight with no Problema (just like the adds of those premium SP rods again)
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32640.0
I forgot to install the "Alextech Baja SupreJig" decal on it, maybe on next one.
Nice! Did you ever get any feedback on how that Roddy fished, or have a chance to try it yourself? Would like to see how my theories panned out.
Quote from: conchydong on March 10, 2021, 01:07:19 AM
I have also been debating on spending the dollars for a slow pitch set up. In S. Florida the Temple Reef slow pitch rods are very popular. The Gravitate and the Levitate models are the ones most commonly used. It is a investment that requires a lot of research.
They sure are popular, but I am skeptical. Looks like the Jeweled 5th Anniversary (5th, - really ?) Temple Reef rods are available now for a mere half a grand :o if you want to go whole hog :)
For just about any industry, the Chinese factories that are pumping out product for big-name vendor A, are willing to pump out some more product for newcomer vendor B. Vendor A has a valuable reputation to protect, and experience and investment in offshore production and quality management across a bunch of products. Vendor B will not be operating at the same level of scale or experience, making offshore management that more difficult. Just because it comes out of the same factory with the same materials does not mean that product B s the same quality. For example, if some of the prepreg carbon fiber cloth is getting past the use-by date, whose rods do you think it is going to go into? Which production line gets the rookie employees? Which rods are built by the graveyard shift?
Don't know if Temple Reef is the real deal or just another Vendor B with a slick marketing campaign.
Warranty is also consideration. Most jigging rods have a a short enough warranty period that whether the company will still be in business is a not too much of a worry. Temple Reef is a bit funky with the terms: https://templereef.com/rod-warranty/ (https://templereef.com/rod-warranty/) They only warranty the bottom third of the rod on the models that you mentioned and will replace for free only for six months from date of purchase.
Which leaves us with the actual functional characteristics off a rod that will not be cast, just dropping a jig, shaking and winding.
Once a reasonably heavy jig drops down very far in the water, minor variations in the action of the rod will have virtually no effect on the action of the jig. Especially if there is much current or wind drift. The friction of the water along and across the line is too great. You are mostly pulling against the line. There was one line of rods advertised as designed to work at up to 1000 feet (don't know if it was Temple Reef). I had to laugh. Lifting the tip on any rod will lift the jig at 1000 feet (or 300 for that matter) exactly zero inches.
I'm with Mark- I'm kind of lusting after that Roddy a bit. Especially if Alex makes a jeweled 1st anniversary edition :)
-J
Well you know how much I like black hole rods,,,, ;) and the 450g rods,,,,,,, ;D
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.
It's not just about being a bendy noodle - in fact, that misses the point entirely. The recovery of the blank is vital in imparting a good action to the jig. A noodle that doesn't recover won't flick the jig; just lift it, so the jig will never go into the falling state and have any action.
Can you catch fish by dangling a slow-pitch jig off any old rod? Sure. Will you enjoy it more and catch more fish with a dedicated slow pitch blank? I'd take that wager.
EDIT: For reference, my PE1-2 slowpitch rod has a butt diameter of 0.39" and takes a size 4 tip.
The other giveaway is the weight. CXJ602 blank is 6.2oz - that's more than a completely built slow-jig rod.
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 05:54:01 AM
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.
It's not just about being a bendy noodle - in fact, that misses the point entirely. The recovery of the blank is vital in imparting a good action to the jig. A noodle that doesn't recover won't flick the jig; just lift it, so the jig will never go into the falling state and have any action.
Can you catch fish by dangling a slow-pitch jig off any old rod? Sure. Will you enjoy it more and catch more fish with a dedicated slow pitch blank? I'd take that wager.
EDIT: For reference, my PE1-2 slowpitch rod has a butt diameter of 0.39" and takes a size 4 tip.
The other giveaway is the weight. CXJ602 blank is 6.2oz - that's more than a completely built slow-jig rod.
I think I had thinking care of the problem,,,,,, ;) go big or go home that what I say and the fish,,,,,, ;D
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 05:54:01 AM
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks.
EDIT: For reference, my PE1-2 slowpitch rod has a butt diameter of 0.39" and takes a size 4 tip.
no even the BH capecod?
btw whats the brand dnd model of your pe1-2 rod ?
Unless you mean the Cape Cod Special Slow Pitch, no, they are all fast jig rods.
My PE1-2 is a Jig Star Tai Kabura.
Quote from: jurelometer on March 09, 2021, 11:31:58 PM
That is also why a difference of an ounce or two in blank weight is hard to notice.
This is a long winded way of saying that the functional/technical demands on these type of jigging blanks is not very high, so it seems tougher to me to justify paying a premium.
I don't even know if we're talking about the same kind of jigging at this point ??? ??? ??? I know techniques and styles vary hugely around the world... so I suspect we may be talking about two different things.
EDIT: Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_TWA5z2zRI - three very similar rods, and yet each imparts noticeably different action on the fall, due to variations in how the blank responds. Each of these rods is better suited to a different jigging action and style of jig.
Double edit: I know this is just in a pool so the effect will be exaggerated due to minimal effects of water depth. But that's also why it's vital to use the lightest line you can get away with. At 200ft it matters a lot.
Aha, it is another of these threads, where someone asks about slow-pitch and J says "it's all humbug, use whatever rod you want" and I come along and say "are you mad, use the correct tool for the job, blah blah blah"
Which I guess just goes to illustrate that everyone has their own opinion about "ideal".... or even "worthwhile".
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 05:54:01 AM
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.
can you explain me or point me where to find the main difference on those two techniques or what makes a SP rod?
I know I can google it but sometimes is easier to understand when someone explain it with simple normal words.
Im not totally set on getting a purist slowpitch blank this time, heck Im only looking for a blank to replace my Trevala rod which is a knife jigging rod (fast pitch?) but I might get one slow pitch sooner or later just to try it, my normal fishing grounds are not that deep so, North Sea of Cortez I really dont know how much much depth you need to really make those slowpitch lures to shine or if the SP technique can be use it as the also "new" light and UL micro jigging technique.
I have seen videos of UL micro jigging (I dont know if those videos are for light Slowpitch rods or fast pitch rods) and its really appealing too, specially when my average size fish in my local zones are around 2#- 6# with the good ones been around 10-15# but you can find a 40# if you happen to find an adult gulf grouper, two and 4hrs south the fisheries get a lot better in size.
I dont recall many threads on at.com talking about slowpitch rods so, I dont know how many times our guy "J" had said to use whattever glass rod and your set hahaha, but feel free to add all the input on the topic in this thread as you want.
Im also trying to use lighter rods than my normal Glass heavy and thick wall rods that we normally use (froma decades) in Baja, I have already a custom composite 130# trolling rod and 100# livebait rod, those are my Heavy rods and currently building a 7.6ft swimbait rod for casting lures at the rocky shores of the islands, still need a short jigging rod, a spinning popping rod and a 40# livebait/casting rod to replace my factory rods
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 08:31:14 AM
Unless you mean the Cape Cod Special Slow Pitch, no, they are all fast jig rods.
My PE1-2 is a Jig Star Tai Kabura.
thanks that seems like a really cool rod.
another fellow in Bd.com said that Zeus 1 blank can act as slowpitch rod just using heavier SP lures (because they are underated so, you have to use the lures recommended for 300gr SP blanks ) to get the proper movements of the lures, but I find the zeus1 with 15# capable drag still on the low side to stop YT and groupers on shallow/medium deep water looking for structure, so, maybe because of my regular zone for fishing SP rods are not what I need, normally I cannot use low drag because to fish will rock me in 3 seconds.
Quote from: MarkT on March 10, 2021, 02:21:18 AM
....They pretty much point the rod at the fish and fight it with just the reel. That old Roddy had way more back than the high-end slow pitch rods!
Mark is correct. Slow pitch originally came about in Asia. It was a technique used in over fished waters. Rod was entirely used to impart action to the jig. Again, I'm no jig fisherman. I'm going to be working to change this. Simply because I believe most any fish can be caught with some sort or fashion of a jig... Jeff
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 05:54:01 AM
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.
EDIT: For reference, my PE1-2 slowpitch rod has a butt diameter of 0.39" and takes a size 4 tip.
The other giveaway is the weight. CXJ602 blank is 6.2oz - that's more than a completely built slow-jig rod.
Amigo Boon, reading here and there found out that UC is actually making a blank for UL micro jigging and some guys are using it as Slow pitch rods is UC 60H double helix, etc, etc
SKU: Action: Butt: Length: Line Weight: Lure Weight: Tip: Blank Weight:
UC60H FAST 0.35 6'0" 8-25 1/4 - 1 5.5 2.14
Quote from: steelfish on March 10, 2021, 06:42:03 PM
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 05:54:01 AM
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.
can you explain me or point me where to find the main difference on those two techniques or what makes a SP rod?
I know I can google it but sometimes is easier to understand when someone explain it with simple normal words.
Fast pitch, mechanical jigging, maybe even butterfly jigging.... the typical technique for this is to do one pitch (turn of the handle) for each jerk (lift of the rod). Rod raised, reel handle at the top, rod tip to the water, reel handle at the bottom. But the difference is the cadence; with fast pitch/MJ there isn't really a pause or much of a falling phase, unless you, say deliberately pause after 4 or 5 lifts - the jig is more or less darting upwards. The jigs used tend to be tail-weighted and relatively light compared to a SP jig for the same line rating. I often jig a 300g knife jig on my PE8 MJ setup, whereas that would be more like a PE4 SP setup. Fast pitch rods tend to be shorter (under 6' usually) and much stiffer, to deal with the load the jig imparts with the rapid lifting of the rod tip. Because of the speed you work the jig, this technique is more suitable for fast swimming predators... you can use this technique for slow bottom fish but you usually slow the action right down to a poor imitation of SP.
With slow pitch, you can still do the one-lift-one-turn thing, or you can mix it up with half/quarter/third/whatever. The rod is deliberately worked in a way that you allow the jig to fall, while following it down with the rod. Most of the action of a SP jig comes from the fall, whereas with MJ you almost always get hit on the lift.
Fast pitch/Mechanical Jigging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x2JiJRRAcs
Slow pitch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU59Kb4P5v4
got it
thanks
Let's not make it personal, it just discourages folks from contributing.
Thanks for the descriptions and videos, Boon. Here in the USA, all vertical jigging rods are often tossed into the "slow pitch" category.
Regarding the Shimano video: The host is comparing gradually lifting and lowering the rod vs suddenly stopping and dropping the rod tip while the jig is still ascending. Not a very compelling case for why different rods are needed for short vs long pitch. A sudden hard stop allows the jig to continue to ascend, giving the angler time to drop the tip and introduce slack, allowing the jig to drop unimpeded (which is critical for the action). So far, a broom stick would work just fine for either. The missing part that could have proven the host's claims would be to show how the rod snap actually affected the movement of the jig, perhaps by causing a bit of acceleration before the stall. The jig is only affected by the pull it is getting from the line. it has no idea how much the rod is bending.
My guess is that the rod snap does not provide a lot of magic. The loading and unloading smooth out the lift action at shallower depths compared to a broomstick, which could be beneficial. I could see this sort of spring action on a lift looking more like a baitfish taking off from a stop.
Regarding which blank, I think you might have missed my point: This style of blank is one of the less challenging to get right, so I personally would find it hard to pay a premium for this week's hot brand.
In terms of repurposing a classic vs a special built jigging blank: The amount of rebound available is a function of load and rod power (resistance). How light or lively the blank is will not affect the amount of energy stored/released. A blank that feels more lively has a higher resonant frequency, which means that the tip oscillates faster when load is released suddenly. This is what is giving you the faster snap on a modern carbon fiber blank. A stiffer blank would actually further increase the resonant frequency. This means that vertical jigging rods (to varying degree) are actually designed to be less lively than they could have been, are are not taking full advantage of the carbon fiber beyond weight reduction. The length of time that the rod is loading/unloading must have been important, unless they simply thought that a bendy rod was a gimmick that could sell.
Damping (the physics term for force countering oscillation) is also at play. In this case, damping comes in the form of the frictional force along and across the line and the resistance from lifting the jig. If you have ever towed a section of line behind a moving boat to untwist it, you know how strong these forces can get. Throw a tight turn while pulling on the rod. The forces are quite surprising.
With enough damping, the original unimpeded resonant frequency becomes irrelevant. My belief is that the depth and current/drift window where the difference in rods has an effect on lure action is much smaller than people think it is. The shallower and calmer the waters you fish, the better the chance that fine tuning a quiver of vertical jigging setups might have a benefit. If there is not much benefit for how you fish, better off going with a more all-around rod that you can throw at boils too.
I end up being wrong (it happens :) ) if the window is actually bigger than I think it is, and sending a paycheck or two to Shimano turns out to be money well spent.
I think that we both agree that the thinner the braid the better for any kind of drop jigging action, including traditional drop and shake. A thinner braid increases the operating window, whatever size it is.
-J.
Quote from: steelfish on March 10, 2021, 06:42:03 PM
Quote from: boon on March 10, 2021, 05:54:01 AM
None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.
can you explain me or point me where to find the main difference on those two techniques or what makes a SP rod?
https://www.anglers-secrets.com/rods-and-reels/
This is the main article on SPJ rods from the foremost website on the subject, it's out of Japan where it originated and all the rods are from overseas, but it reveals what US mfgs are attempting to replicate, and what China produces right now.
As someone who's been at this technique almost exclusively for the last 3 seasons I can say what Boon explains is pretty accurate, reading up on it should confirm this, and the skeptics ... ::) ... that suggest things like morphing an old fiberglass rod into this technique probably haven't had much experience with slow pitch.
Yes you can jig with any rod, and you can use these innovative new jigs with any rod, how effective it might be is up for debate until somebody shows some results, but most people that attempt it will most likely invest in a legit SPJ rod, sooner than later.
As for the rods you mention, BlackHole is more of one than what UC will put out, I've never even heard of them doing SPJ and most US mfgs have a lot of catching up to do.
For the US market Shimano is ahead of the pack with roots in this game for years, other mfgs that make slow pitch rods that are available here and are time and field tested are:
Phenix
Accurate
Nomad
Daiwa
Temple Reef
Penn ........yes Penn
As some say there is a lot of hype involved with this slow movement, and some of that is true, but much of it isn't, and getting first hand experience is the best tutor.
You don't have to spend the big bucks for overpriced models with titatium guides, Penn's rod is on sale at some places at $119.00, a meager price to get started, and Shimano Grappler, a much better unit is a reasonably priced option.
I would just steer away from mfgs that have little experience with it.
thanks Boon and rockfishing ninja for your valuable input on the subjet of SPJ
part of this misunderstanding and questioning is my fault because my lack of knowleage on the SPJ technique and gear use it, as Jurometer said, we (people that dont know much on the topic) like to talk about jigging, knife jiggin, slowpitch, etc as if they were the same, NOW I know they are very different styles and require very different gear, its like having similar clubs in a gulf bag, "jigging rods" look similar but depending what you WANT to do with your lure you chose SPJ or Knife jigging with a light and thin rod or with a more robust rod.
also, when I was looking for UC or BH or Rainshadow or any other blank Mfgs for slowpitch or mechanical jigging the only reason was because Im only looking for a blank, actually before asking and making this thread I found out there are many SPJ rods on the market for a very reasonable price as goofish, Ecooda and few more, but Im on the "mode" of not buying more factory rods even at a good price and even when building one SPJ rod will cost me 2x the price of those economical brands.
with said, seems that a true SPJ blank is hard to get, so far only BH charter special 6.8 slowpitch but no blank is available from Penn, daiwa, accurate, etc and other available blanks are in the expensive side for me, now thats the reason I ended up with those 3 options in my opening post of a regular (no SPJ) fast jigging rod.
I am the number one skeptic. I believe that one needs a stiff rod with maybe a soft tip. Those bendy rods take too much energy to play a fish. You want to get the fish to the gaff and not have a problem controlling the fish at the side of the boat. My opinion only. Also I think Dave was saying the same thing in a whole bunch of words. :D Dominick
Quote from: steelfish on March 11, 2021, 05:59:29 PM
so far only BH charter special 6.8 slowpitch
The nail on the head, that is the exact conclusion I came to when I did the research on building my own. The total with SIC guides and an upgraded grip came to about $230 if I recall, they seem pretty straightforward to build with very few components, I just chickened out and picked up a factory Shimano & went fishing.
If I ever build up the courage (not really a rod builder ;)) I'd go with that model.
Quote from: jurelometer on March 11, 2021, 04:06:34 AM
Let's not make it personal, it just discourages folks from contributing.
Thanks for the descriptions and videos, Boon. Here in the USA, all vertical jigging rods are often tossed into the "slow pitch" category.
Regarding the Shimano video: The host is comparing gradually lifting and lowering the rod vs suddenly stopping and dropping the rod tip while the jig is still ascending. Not a very compelling case for why different rods are needed for short vs long pitch. A sudden hard stop allows the jig to continue to ascend, giving the angler time to drop the tip and introduce slack, allowing the jig to drop unimpeded (which is critical for the action). So far, a broom stick would work just fine for either. The missing part that could have proven the host's claims would be to show how the rod snap actually affected the movement of the jig, perhaps by causing a bit of acceleration before the stall. The jig is only affected by the pull it is getting from the line. it has no idea how much the rod is bending.
My guess is that the rod snap does not provide a lot of magic. The loading and unloading smooth out the lift action at shallower depths compared to a broomstick, which could be beneficial. I could see this sort of spring action on a lift looking more like a baitfish taking off from a stop.
Regarding which blank, I think you might have missed my point: This style of blank is one of the less challenging to get right, so I personally would find it hard to pay a premium for this week's hot brand.
In terms of repurposing a classic vs a special built jigging blank: The amount of rebound available is a function of load and rod power (resistance). How light or lively the blank is will not affect the amount of energy stored/released. A blank that feels more lively has a higher resonant frequency, which means that the tip oscillates faster when load is released suddenly. This is what is giving you the faster snap on a modern carbon fiber blank. A stiffer blank would actually further increase the resonant frequency. This means that vertical jigging rods (to varying degree) are actually designed to be less lively than they could have been, are are not taking full advantage of the carbon fiber beyond weight reduction. The length of time that the rod is loading/unloading must have been important, unless they simply thought that a bendy rod was a gimmick that could sell.
Damping (the physics term for force countering oscillation) is also at play. In this case, damping comes in the form of the frictional force along and across the line and the resistance from lifting the jig. If you have ever towed a section of line behind a moving boat to untwist it, you know how strong these forces can get. Throw a tight turn while pulling on the rod. The forces are quite surprising.
With enough damping, the original unimpeded resonant frequency becomes irrelevant. My belief is that the depth and current/drift window where the difference in rods has an effect on lure action is much smaller than people think it is. The shallower and calmer the waters you fish, the better the chance that fine tuning a quiver of vertical jigging setups might have a benefit. If there is not much benefit for how you fish, better off going with a more all-around rod that you can throw at boils too.
I end up being wrong (it happens :) ) if the window is actually bigger than I think it is, and sending a paycheck or two to Shimano turns out to be money well spent.
I think that we both agree that the thinner the braid the better for any kind of drop jigging action, including traditional drop and shake. A thinner braid increases the operating window, whatever size it is.
-J.
Can I just say that I love how we can disagree as gentlemen, and the discourse is fantastic and does genuinely cause me to think in more depth (no pun intended) about my fishing.
Next time we're heading out a bit deeper I'll take a SPJ setup with me and some big jigs and do some experimenting. For what it's worth, I have mechanical jigged in 750ft with an 18oz jig and I was definitely imparting an action to the jig... you do have to alter the way you jig though, with an exaggerated rod lift resulting in a generally slower action.
Dominick - these rods, techniques, jigs... were developed in a fishery that has been under huge pressure for many years. The absolute emphasis is on getting the bite, requiring extremely good presentation, with fish-fighting being a secondary consideration (although some of the more modern rods are capable of leaning on a fish pretty hard). I'd much rather be hooked up on a noodle than holding a broomstick at the rail and staring out to sea.
Quote from: steelfish on March 11, 2021, 05:59:29 PM
its like having similar clubs in a gulf bag
This is my approach entirely. Could you play an entire round of golf with a 5 iron? Probably, but I'd rather do it with a bag of clubs.
Or maybe you're the kind of golfer who just enjoys smashing balls out on the driving range, so all you need is a gigantic driver. Maybe you're more of a pitch/putt kinda guy, so you're quite happy with two clubs.
At the same time... I play golf (poorly) with maybe 5 or 6 clubs that I enjoy using and can hit fairly consistently with - just like I'm not heading out to sea with 20 fishing rods. I have 2 SPJ sets - a light one and a heavy one. I'm not quite in the category of going "hmm the tide has picked up 25%, better change from a Power 3 to Power 4 rod". I'll just put on a heavier jig and hope I can stay vertical...........
I like to use the analogy of the "clubs in a golf bag" because I use it to convince my wife that I need one more rod for another special techique I want to try, but Im running out of excuses using it, I havent seen a golf player with 45 clubs in his house (it could be possible but I havent seen that).
maybe is the same way all over the world, but talking in my own experience fishing from a panga boats 95% of the time and with 4 more guys with their rods in the same small boat, you cannot bring 5-8 rods for every single style you want to try or possible need, so, when you are a rocky old captains " recommend us" to bring rods that could be use it for 1 or 2 or even 3 different styles/scenarios, so, you only bring 3 rods with you, live bait, casting and trolling and with luck you can bring your jigging rod, with the experience you learn to pick your rods for the day depending the zone you are going to fish, so you select your rods and reels "hoping" you dont need a stronger one or a ligther one, etc.
on my trevala rod for knife jigging lures I could cast 2oz spoons to the moon or even the same jigging lure if I see a boiling in the surface and of course use it for the intended use of buttlerfly jigs, not saying its better, just more a"multy task rod" and of course its a totally different animal than a true SPJ rod, I like this trevala rod and I was thinking to modify it adding a longer butt, make it acid,etc.. but naah I better sell it and build me something that suit my needs better.
How many rods do you need? One more!
Quote from: steelfish on March 11, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
I like to use the analogy of the "clubs in a golf bag" because I use it to convince my wife that I need one more rod for another special techique I want to try, but Im running out of excuses using it, I havent seen a golf player with 45 clubs in his house (it could be possible but I havent seen that).
Ha! My brother in law (an avid golfer) probably has that many clubs. And is still refining his collection all the time. As Mark T said, the correct number is usually 1 more than whatever the current number is.
The context of how you fish is important. In our case, for example, we might look at the forecast, tides, water temperature etc. and say "let's go for a jigging trip" and nothing else comes on the boat except jigging rods. The lack of versatility means you commit to a technique; otherwise you go jig for half an hour and if you're not catching you go "oh well" and go anchor up in one of your favourite spots and bottom-fish with dead bait because you know it will catch a few fish. Restricting yourself to a small range of techniques forces you to improve. At the same time, I appreciate that this is a privileged viewpoint: I get to fish a lot, from a small boat with just 2 or 3 of us on it, and if we get skunked trying something it's not a big deal as fish for the table are a bonus rather than an objective on those trips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJArYXZ-wM
Not all Slow pitch rods are created equal.
now you have my attention !!
WOW !! not bad for $500 USD ;D ;D
Then you need the shirt too to look like a pro-staffer so people will know that you're fishing a $500 rod and that you think you know how to use it.
Quote from: MarkT on March 12, 2021, 02:52:26 PM
Then you need the shirt too to look like a pro-staffer so people will know that you're fishing a $500 rod and that you think you know how to use it.
"Hearty Rise" logo jig: check
"Hearty Rise" logo hat: check
"Hearty Rise" logo gloves: check
"Hearty Rise" logo pro shirt: check
"Hearty Rise" logo shorts: check
But I am drawing the line on the "Hearty Rise" logo knickers.
Actually, you know the first thing you are going to hear when you get on the long range boat with that logo shirt is "Look who's sporting the Hearty Rise". Just sayin...
See the gaff being waved around? I wonder if they gaffed that poor little thresher, then tossed it back in the water, so they could drag it in by the tail for the camera once it was beat down enough.
Is it just me? I found the behavior of the "actors" throughout the video to be kind of repulsive.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on March 12, 2021, 08:37:41 PM
Quote from: MarkT on March 12, 2021, 02:52:26 PM
Then you need the shirt too to look like a pro-staffer so people will know that you're fishing a $500 rod and that you think you know how to use it.
"Hearty Rise" logo jig: check
"Hearty Rise" logo hat: check
"Hearty Rise" logo gloves: check
"Hearty Rise" logo pro shirt: check
"Hearty Rise" logo shorts: check
But I am drawing the line on the "Hearty Rise" logo knickers.
Actually, you know the first thing you are going to hear when you get on the long range boat with that logo shirt is "Look who's sporting the Hearty Rise". Just sayin...
-J
c'mon compadre, they are making a promoting video on a small sporty boat, shimano, penn, okuma, daiwa videos are doing the the same in the by the pro staff, maybe different cultures but same way of advertisement a new product, if a rod gets broken on a fish that day they just cut it from the final video, you only get the best 10 minutes from 5 days of fishing on the same spot, nothing wrong with that.
anyway.. on side note.
after seeing some videos of Light jigging (with show extremely thin mechanical jigging rods and of course the use of SPJ rods), I remembered having a short 5ft blank pretty thin maybe for Freshwater rod that came along a bunch of broken rods I bought at a flea market 4years ago, 80% of that were trash, I didnt even saved the guides or anything, they went directly to the trash can, but rescued around 10 rods, 3 totally new with tags just 2-3 guides broken and the rest with 3" or so broken at the tip.
Purist SPJ guys will kill me for this but yesterday just for the kicks and using parts from the broken rods I have, I made a Franken SPJ rod LOL (not really but it can pass as UL/L jigging rod), I used the handle/reeseat part from an okuma citrix rod, then extended the butt to another 8" from another broken graphite rod to make it 20" from butt to the reelseat and the same blank pass it through the handle-reelseat section for a tight fit and secured the 5ft blank, now the rod is around 5.8ft or so, well, put some guides with masking tape to test it on my lab room, the tip have some recoil but its has a smooth bounce with a 3oz weight even if I try a quick stop of the weight (similar to what the shimano guy was doing on the video on the pool), this rod might make a SPJ lure to dance under the water ::) ::).
well after having all the guides secured with masking tape I did my "regular" extreme lifting test to check how it will fight an angry triggerfish or 6# Sierra spanish mack, the Frankerod could lift 3# easily, then it lifted 5# with no sweat, tried 7# also with no problem but I stopped there, I dont want to have another blank break on my finder or smacking on my face because the extreme bend, but I think if I use the same way of fighting the fish with the rod/reel pointing to the water like the SPJ pro guys do it I can fight a 10# fish or bigger easy peasy. I know this kind of lifting test mean nothing for SPJ or regular fishing for the matter (but wondering why then, jigging brands always promote their rods with pictures lifting weight, anyway) considering you are not casting 3oz jigs with the rod only dropping it to the bottom I might finish this fraken rod JUST for the fun of it specially because I can finisi it with left over guides and some cheap eva grips on the extended reargrip for "free" with the only extra cost of printing the "Alextech Baja SupreJig" decal for it.
seems like solid glass tip blank maybe for a Heavy Duty ice rod because I could lift that 7# toolbox and bounced it with no problema, maybe its from the same "makers" of the ugly stick LOL or the Dock Demon mini rod.
PS: another cheapo rod freshwater rod "Renegade" Tuff max IM7 6ft 8-17lb did the same thing it lifted 5# weight and no sweat and still with a nice smooth curve on the blank pretty sure I could've lifted the 7# easy too but it was late, 2am so, I stopped my Lab tests for another day, I still wondering why the other swimbait blank broke on with me with 7# weight, pretty soon I will know if it came damaged from the factory/handling or if both have a mfng problem because Im building another rod with the same blank again (yep, I bought two at the same time) and I will test it again for "learning purposes" but now with all the guide train installed not just the tip, again with 7# weight before wraping the guides but this time using my 3 step ladder to avoid a sharp angle from highsticking
5 lbs eh.......... try over 4x that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwA6TCsJh14
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on March 13, 2021, 12:15:01 AM
5 lbs eh.......... try over 4x that.
20# hu!! I might do it .. just for the science.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/3592_13_03_21_12_48_12_34636729.jpeg)
well, to tell the true I did tried with 10# but when I started to try to lift it all the taped guides got "broken free" from the blank and tape along with a guitar string sound "ping" "tiing" one after another, I just hear 7 sounds and my kid who was taking the pictures asked me, what was that sound?, then I saw the fishing line going from the reel to the tip of the blank and all the running guides trapped on the braid line resting at the tip, maybe because they were taped on a acid wrapped way and they were "pulling" down the blank instead of pushing it down also guides used were a microwave single foot set, pretty tiny so, no much meat to secure them with the tape, Lab test ended right there until trying with bigger guides with larger single foot (as fuji LN) or double foot or just having the rod built.
thanks Boon and rockfish ninja, Im learning a lot of what a true SPJ rod is, since I also fish as hobby and to have a fun day at the water not really to fill the ice cooler with everyfish I catch (I love fish but always fishing the limits or less) It doesnt hurt to have one of those dedicated SPJ rods (custom made by me of course) and try that style on a calm day here at the Californian Gulf.
Are you going to spiral wrap it?
I know the benefits of it but oddly enough the most expensive SPJ rods out of Japan and Asia aren't spiral, not sure why.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on March 13, 2021, 02:03:18 AM
Are you going to spiral wrap it?
for this test purposes it was better that way because with the blank so bendy with just a small force the guides always escaped from the tape and twisted to sides, so I needed to double tape them but same result so, I taped them acid wrap and they kept steady, but in general I was with the idea to install the guides acid wrapped.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on March 13, 2021, 02:03:18 AM
I know the benefits of them but oddly enough the most expensive SPJ rods out of Japan and Asia don't, not sure why.
I have seen that too, on regular jigging rods some Swear by the benefits of the acid wrapped rods and came wrapped like that from the factory while some guys still like the casting guides the regular way, wrapped at the top of the blank, but on the really thin aka spaguetti SPJ rods (the real ones) I have seen so far that non of them is acid wrapped, maybe because they are so bendy that 80% of the guides are pointing down most of the time so you dont feel that twist of the blank in your hands as with the stiffer blanks.
so, not really set on how to wrap it yet.
I dont know if Temple reef SPJ rods qualify as expensive or just the japanese ones, but this model Innovative is Acid wraped in the Aussie way, perdon me if its wrong to say it like that (aussie way) but is the only place I have seen they wrap the spiral with a Striper guide, a bumper guide off-setting contrary angle and the spiral down to the contrary side of the bumper, its do it that way to avoid the line to always try to push the reel to the same side of the spiral, I will try that style on my next swimbait rod to check if it feels different than the "regular" spiral wrap.
https://templereef.com/elevate/
Wow, that's a weird acid wrap! Starts at 90, next is to the right, then a slow transition to the left? I'm right handed so I prefer a fast transition to the left. Get to the bottom as quick as possible. When vertical jigging with a conventional, you might as well treat it as a spinner and just get down!
From what I've read, that newer style of spiral wrap was developed to prevent twisting of the blank under pressure. Don't have a link to the info but worth some research if you're undecided.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on March 13, 2021, 01:33:23 PM
From what I've read, that newer style of spiral wrap was developed to prevent twisting of the blank under pressure. Don't have a link to the info but worth some research if you're undecided.
maybe because those blanks are so thin and bendy that suffer more with the acid wrap than benefit from it.
as said before knife jigging rods spiral wrap is a common use, some even used clever names for their models as the Twisted Sista from Jigstar ;D ;D
https://www.jigstarrods.com/twisted-sista
This rod is actually what I have in mind to use it as model for my build, didnt knew SPJ rods where a totally different animal
@Mark, that rod has the same way to make the spiral downwards, the aussie way, looks crazy but its normal downunder, so, they cant be wrong just different way, I say it worth to try it.
I prefer the first guide to be slightly to the left. That way when I'm cranking I only have to press the line to the right with my thumb and it'll come back to the left on its own. I don't need to really pay attention to the line lay at all.
Quote from: MarkT on March 13, 2021, 06:54:57 PM
I prefer the first guide to be slightly to the left. That way when I'm cranking I only have to press the line to the right with my thumb and it'll come back to the left on its own. I don't need to really pay attention to the line lay at all.
My 3 acid wrapped rods are that same way, well actually on the musky rod the 1st guide is offset around 5* to the right to try to keep the line truly centered because I normally use a levelwind reel on it (calcutta 400TE and now abu Beast 60) so the levelwind mechanism will lay down the line effortless, on the stronger rods the stripper guide is centered at 0* but the fishing line act the same way you described, it always tending to lay at the left of the reel so I just push it at the right as you do it and it will come back again to the left, it works really good.