I'm up to 4 mxl's, and 2 sx's so I have to like something. Mostly the durability and drag consistency. What I don't understand is that on EVERY one of my reels, I basically I have an "all or nothing" throw range from "live bait" to "strike." At "live" there isn't nearly enough spool tension to fish big baits. When advancing the lever to strike, there is very little incremental increase to "strike", at which point I'm at full drag. Is there a way to increase spool tension at "live" w/o changing the overall drag setting? Does anyone else have this problem? It's not uncommon for me to fish 80' w/ 8-10oz and a big piece of cut bait. The current constantly pulls line until I'm at strike.
Thanks,
if you drag is greased, then the next thing that affects the actual drag pressure is the cam. avet cams are generally pretty smooth. you've greased the drags, right?
Quote from: togntime on January 24, 2012, 06:40:11 PM
I'm up to 4 mxl's, and 2 sx's so I have to like something. Mostly the durability and drag consistency. What I don't understand is that on EVERY one of my reels, I basically I have an "all or nothing" throw range from "live bait" to "strike." At "live" there isn't nearly enough spool tension to fish big baits. When advancing the lever to strike, there is very little incremental increase to "strike", at which point I'm at full drag. Is there a way to increase spool tension at "live" w/o changing the overall drag setting? Does anyone else have this problem? It's not uncommon for me to fish 80' w/ 8-10oz and a big piece of cut bait. The current constantly pulls line until I'm at strike.
Thanks,
Short answer no. The "live bait" setting is pretty much useless for spool tensioning on all non Raptor Avets IMO. To get tension at this setting the drag will to be set way to tight and when you push the lever to strike you will be way over the drag range for their reels. What you need to do is set the reels drag pressure at strike where you want it to be, then when you fish bait increase the lever to the drag pressure from free spool to where you want it. This way you will know that your not going over the drag pressure you want at strike but if you want to increase your drags during a fight you have head room moving the lever past strike. Just forget the reel has that setting and you should be fine because you will never get it to work as a spool tensioning system the way you want it.
I decided to grease one of the drags with "Cals" and left the other one dry. Will see which one works best. On the work bench both reels seem fine, but real life is another thing. I'm surprised that no one else has this issue, as its so consistant on every AVET I own. SoCal said it perfectly in the beginning, but I'm sorry I'm not following his solution. Are you suggesting to adjust the drag tension to the desired freespool bait tension while fishing, allowing for the increase from stike to full?
Basically, as SoCal stated; when I set my drag at strike to where I want, all of my live, and chunks baits rip line while fishing from bait to strike. Then at strike, its like I'm deadsticking, with no freespool.
Am I being to particular? I was playing with a Daiwa that seemed to have a nice ratcheting feature, with an incremental spool tension increase from freespool to strike.
What I was trying to say is set your drag pressure where you want it to be at strike. Most people set the drag pressure at between 1/4 to 1/3 of the weakest line used be it the mono, topshot, leader or the backing. The SX and MXJ and MXL (non Raptor versions) which all have the same drags were not designed to fish spectra lines and max out around 9 lbs of drag pressure before you start to get too much side load on the pinion bearing. So about 30 lb test line is max for those reels unless you use heavier lines for abrasion resistance but you still cant go over around 9 lbs of drag pressure.
What I was trying to say also was, say if your fishing 30 test on your reels you want to set the drag pressure at around 7.5 lbs (1/4) to 10 lbs (1/3) at strike. If you do this you will see that when you set your reel to "live" you will still have no resistance from the drags thus no spool tension. Now if you move the lever of the reel a ways past "live" you will start to get drag pressure and the spool tension your looking for. Now move the lever forward enough to stop the line from paying out then you have the bait where you want it in the water, if thats the way you fish. Ok now you get bit, increase the drag pressure on the reel by moving the lever forward to strike and set the hook (non circle hooks) and fight the fish. Sometimes you may want to apply more drag pressure than the 1/4 to 1/3 of the lines breaking strenght thats when you can move the reels lever past strike. Now if you set the reels spool to have tension at the "live" setting the drags will be way too stiff for their reels and the drag pressure at strike will be way past the 1/4 to 1/3 you should be looking for.
I just took a look at a Raptor SX 6/4 (just fully serviced) Here is what I measure:
'Live Bait' first detente past free spool 4#
'Strike' strike stop about 3/4 way up 17#
Pushing the lever strike bypass button allows drag to be further increased up to MAX drag for the reel.
Drag is incremental in between first detente and strike.
If you reduce the strike drag you will also reduce the 'live bait' drag.
The only issue I can see is if the first detente produces too much drag for your needs.
For myself I use the first detente once my fish is gaffed to prevent backlash and still allow the deck hand pull any needed line.
Hope this helps,
Jim N.
Thanks for the input Jim I don't own any Raptors so I cant play around with one and do tests like that. But, if this guy owns non Raptor SX or MX reels and tries to get 17 lbs at strike out of them he is going to have problems sooner rather than later.
All mine are non-raptor. Time to get a spring scale and see where I'm actually at. I took the reels apart, and upon reconstruction the "live' to "strike" throw seems to be more incremental. I'll post my results.
Cool site!
Togntime: I do not want to quote SoCalAngler's two posts here. Everything he is saying in the posts above is correct. He is right on the money with his advice. Dominick
Yup, the way SoCalAn prescribed is exactly how I fished them. I just check the drags last night. 7#s at strike, 2#s at live. Very linear increase from live to stike along the bail throw. So either last year was an entire aberration; or when I took the reels apart the general servicing help the problem. Cant wait for the stripes!
Thanks,
i too have this problem. when fishing bait on anchor in current there isnt nearly enough drag at bait, but as soon as i move passed the bait detent the drag is way to tight. my drag is set at 7 lbs. at strike. am i to understand that greasing the drag will remedy this?
Nope it only make the drag smoother while fighting a fish. If the drag ramp up is to severe from nothing to too much Avet now makes the Kodiak cam which may help this issue. When I was at the Ferd Hall show, the largest fishing on the west coast, I went to the Avet booth to talk about this cam and ask if it may help with a issue I have similar to yours. Well the one guy at their booth looked at me like I was talking about a camshaft for a car even after I explained to him that this was something their company makes. He told me he knew nothing about it and asked another guy working the booth and he also knew nothing about it. I like some of their reels but you would think at one of the largest fishing shows in the states their reps would be better schooled on the products they sell.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on March 18, 2012, 11:06:13 PM
you would think at one of the largest fishing shows in the states their reps would be better schooled on the products they sell.
Roger that SoCal. That goes for any product. Dominick
Roger that SoCal. That goes for any product. Dominick
[/quote]
It sure does, check this out. At the show I walk up to Okuma's booth to check out the Makaira SE line. As I was looking at them this guy walks up and is talking to the rep about the standard Makair's. This guy picks up a MK 10 and is asking a few basic questions about the reel. He asks about what kind of drag pressure this reel can get and the rep starts to talk about how the reel looks, how it feels and some other stuff. Again the guy asks about the drag pressure the rep says "well I will have to check" as he is looking through a stack of papers looking for the brochure I look at the guy and tell him it gets 27 lbs at strike and 34 lbs at full while still maintaining free spool. The rep kinda gives me the stink eye and says that he better make sure. He finally finds the info and says yep that is what the reel can get. Now I'm about done looking at the SE models when the customer picks up a MK 15 and asks about the drag pressure of this reel. Well the rep starts looking around for where he set down the brochure, at that point I had to walk away I thought my head was going to explode. I did not have the hart to tell them it has the same drag pressure as the other reel. This rep was clueless about their top of the line reels, the ones their trying to win back the harts of saltwater anglers with. Oh, and it only has been on the market for what, one or two years now?
well, in all fairness, okuma has ALOT of reels and rods to learn. the toughest would be the shimano line. they have the most. with sales going up, okuma is probably hiring more staff, and it might take a while to get everyone up to speed.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on March 18, 2012, 11:06:13 PM
Nope it only make the drag smoother while fighting a fish. If the drag ramp up is to severe from nothing to too much Avet now makes the Kodiak cam which may help this issue.
The guys are right about this. Just last week I picked up the South Florida cam-Kodiak. Live bait is useless & this should put me where I want to be. I'm not sure when avet started this new order part or it has been always there but with 3 orders of parts in 2 weeks.... everything came in. 1+
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3699/img9279z.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/img9279z.jpg/)
Quote from: alantani on March 20, 2012, 05:35:00 AM
well, in all fairness, okuma has ALOT of reels and rods to learn. the toughest would be the shimano line. they have the most. with sales going up, okuma is probably hiring more staff, and it might take a while to get everyone up to speed.
Alan I do agree with you and I also think Okuma has made great strides in their saltwater gear. I feel their purchase of Tiburon paid off big time and the Makaira reels are top shelf gear for sure. My point was more about the reps not knowing what their selling. I mean this the biggest fishing show on the west coast and the second biggest in America, I would think that with times as tough as they are in the fishing industry manufactures would want to have the best people representing their gear. I was not the only person at the booth that saw this and it did not leave the best taste in my mouth so to speak. Would I not buy a reel because some rep at a show did not know the gear their selling? No, but others not knowing the Makaira line of reels may have been steered toward another manufacture.
well, i am certain he will be prepared for the next show!
I've noticed this issue on my MXL MC as well. I have a Kodiak cam on order.
I have this issue also
Have posted in the General forum but the thread has stopped being answered. No issue there. It bores even me now.
What about the Kingfish drag mod where the pusher bush is replaced with 3 sets of bellevilles?
http://bluemarlinchronicles.wordpress.com/bmc-drag-update/
I am chasing this as an alternative to the cam swap currently
Alan suggested I file down my sock CAM but I am leery of screwing that up.
I wonder however what benefits the replacement of the bush with 3 sets of washers would give
Or
to modify that further
have three sets and one extra washer like this
()()()(|
Where the last washer was separated from the LH bearing with spool spring spacer washer
So at low to med compression the outer edge of the Belleville was sitting against the outer race of the LH bearing and at high compression the spring washer stopped it from interfering with the inner race to reduce axial pressure?
Successful outcome would be a gradual increase in drag from bait to strike and not an attempt to overdrive the reel and gain more drag than factory suggests is inside tolerance.
I understand that this mod reduces the max drag by a %age but not sure if that is not insurmountable
In the link the guy is talking about the LX reels and not SX or MX reels. You can play around with the belleville washers and get more or less drag or change the ramp up but with a ()()()(| as shown I think you may loose freespool. To me the stack looks to long and when the washes and everything is put back together you will get drag at freespool. In my SX if I place around 6 pounds of drag at strike I will get a pound or two of drag at bait, the more drag at strike the more at the bait setting. The ramp up is gradual and smooth from bait on up. Its been a little while since I had my SX open but I think the stock setup was (())(). I placed my SX back to the stock setup and if you want I will open it and post what I find, just let me know.
You could try the Kodiak cam from Avet. It gets rid of the live bait setting and uses a gentler ramp up. Just a thought. From the Avet webpage:
"The South Florida and Kodiak cam is a replacement drag adjustment cam with a less aggressive ramp profile to allow a finer lever adjustment range for extremely light drag settings. Very popular for light line sailfish and tournament kingfish with LX and JX models, and salmon and other light line species for the SX - MX models. Choose the cam insert for a permanent retrofit to your reel, or choose the arm with the cam already installed for quick "no tools" changeability back to the original aggressive cam when needed. Specify color when ordering the arm. We suggest ordering a different color arm to easily distinguish from the original arm with the standard cam. These cams do not have the "Bait Setting" detent, for ultra fine lever adjustment immediately from the free-spool position forward."
Whoops, I see this has already been mentioned
Quote from: SoCalAngler on February 10, 2014, 04:49:13 AM
In the link the guy is talking about the LX reels and not SX or MX reels. You can play around with the belleville washers and get more or less drag or change the ramp up but with a ()()()(| as shown I think you may loose freespool. To me the stack looks to long and when the washes and everything is put back together you will get drag at freespool. In my SX if I place around 6 pounds of drag at strike I will get a pound or two of drag at bait, the more drag at strike the more at the bait setting. The ramp up is gradual and smooth from bait on up. Its been a little while since I had my SX open but I think the stock setup was (())(). I placed my SX back to the stock setup and if you want I will open it and post what I find, just let me know.
I played around with the stack the other night and noted that there may be too many washers in my drawing.
The bush replacement was suggested to me rather than the SFL cam
I have asked the person who suggested this for a little more info which I will post if OK with him.
I figured that if I rocked them like this initially ()()()(| and lost free spool then I would remove internal washers until I regained it but retain the trailing (| arrangement.
I would keep this trailing arrangement unless it is a poor idea that will grant no benefit to the LH spool bearing
I emphasize that this is to increase the gradualness of the drag and not to increase the max drag. In fact as I understand it, It will reduce overall max drag.
If you have the specs of your SX bellevilles that would be good (ID X OD X Width deflection)
I have asked a couple people who both say that the LX washers should be thicker than the MXL as well as having different ID and OD but on mine the MXL washers are definitely thicker than the LX and the ID and OD are the same so further clarification will be helpful.
Intuitively having more thinner washers would provide a better (finer) drag increase range
Fewer thicker washers a more abrupt drag increase
Does that translate to real world experience?
If I get new washers to replace the Avet washers (None in the country at the NZ dealers and I don't wish to bother the dealer with such a paltry purchase if I can get them myself. I also assume Avet USA wont ship to a country with an existing dealer)
and I go to here
http://www.mcmaster.com/?orderview=new#belleville-disc-springs/=qmzzn3
I see my ID is .1875 and there are several that are close @ .190"
0.190" 0.375" 0.015" 0.027" 0.006" 34 55 12 9712K58 4.26 12 9713K58 5.78
0.190" 0.375" 0.018" 0.028" 0.005" 46 81 12 9712K15 6.40 __ ______ __
0.190" 0.375" 0.020" 0.030" 0.005" 60 110 12 9712K59 3.88 12 9713K59 4.80
0.190" 0.375" 0.030" 0.036" 0.003" 125 233 3 9712K112 5.40 3 9713K12 6.52
0.190" 0.562" 0.019" 0.037" 0.009" 45 67 6 9712K18 7.72 __ ______ __
0.190" 0.562" 0.028" 0.042" 0.007" 87 163 6 9712K19 7.81 __ ______ __
Does a larger or smaller OD have relative merits outside of load? More or less inherent failure etc?
I assume that going conservative in respect to working load is better?
If the OD of the bearing these will but up against is .500" then is a smaller OD or slightly larger OD on the washer preferable?
Lastly, If a better source exists or one with the exact sizings, then please let me know.
Marketing guys are all the same. Have the gift of gab to get the job, but when it's time to talk about the product and any technical specs, they call an engineer. Probably decent at golf; terrible at fishing and working on his car/home.