Does anyone out there have a stash of replacement end guides for old Garcia Conolon rods?
I created this post to inquire about repairing two Garcia Conolon rods that I own. One is a casting rod and the other is a spinning rod.
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=34699.0
I received great instructions in that post on how to repair and replace the guides but now I thought I'd see if I can acquire replacement guides before removing the old ones.
Does anyone out there have these that they'd be willing to sell to me?
If I could be picky, I'd love to get replacements that are as close as possible to the originals but I've never replaced guides before so I don't know if that's possible since they are older rods. I just love the chrome, especially on the casting rod (first picture)...it's a beautiful rod. I can add the rod model numbers if that would help. Thanks in advance!
Take the tips off and measure the inside diameter of the tube. I might have some but need the size. Those are also available online and don't cost much
Like Sheridan says you need the tube diameter. Can also measure the top of the rod if you lack the means of measuring inside of tube.
I dont see any value in directly matching the original hardware, I'd want the best performing tip in budget personally. But to each their own. Plenty of polished tips out there to be had.
Just an FYI on something that was NOT obvious to me the first time I ordered a tip: ring sizes are listed in millimeters. Tube sizes are listed by 64ths of an inch. So a size 6-6 guide has a 6mm ring and a 6/64" tube. Doesnt make a damn bit of sense. If I find the person to write angry letters to I'll pass the contact info along, til then I'll just try to remember it as I buy tips.
https://mudhole.com/collections/tip-top-guides/products/crb-ssr-light-duty-tip-top-guides-model-xlt (https://mudhole.com/collections/tip-top-guides/products/crb-ssr-light-duty-tip-top-guides-model-xlt)
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 22, 2022, 01:39:58 PMI dont see any value in directly matching the original hardware, I'd want the best performing tip in budget personally. But to each their own. Plenty of polished tips out there to be had.
Some of us are purists at heart, especially when it comes to vintage equipment.
I'll get the guides removed in the next day or so, get measurements with my calipers and report back.
Tom, I can probably put myself in the purist bucket with you. If I can't get original style guides then I might end up using something like what Keta posted but hopefully, fingers crossed, I'll end up with originals or very close to original.
Jason, thanks for the tip on how to measure. I had the same "this makes no sense" reaction about the H speed rating for tires. Whoever decided to put it between U and V should also get an angry letter.
I'll be in touch...
I removed the end guides and took measurements. Dumb question from someone who has never done this before: when measuring the tube size in 1/64ths, is standard practice to measure the OD of the rod tip or the ID of the guide? I assume there is a little clearance built in (i.e. the tube of the guide is slightly oversized). Plus there is probably still a little bit of goo on the rod tip which would throw off the measurement.
Measure the rod tip not the guide
You can gently scrape or sand any residual glue off the tip but do it carefully. The tip-top should easily slip over the rod tip, there should be a tiny bit of play so there is room for the glue. Once you get the new tip-top to fit nicely and decide to install it put a couple of slivers of glue into the hole in the guide (tip-top), heat the tip-top to melt the glue and slide it gently all the way onto the rod. You can visualize that place when you're getting it ready. Clean any glue off that squeezes out. If a little goober hardens it can be scraped or whittled off gently with a sharp knife or razor blade.
Thanks Tom. Another dumb question: am I after the ring/insert ID or OD?
ID. Probably a size 8
I really appreciate all the help so far. Like I said, this is uncharted territory for me. I attached a picture of the guides: the casting rod tip-top is on the left and the spinning tip-top is on the right.
I'm probably going overboard with the measuring, but here are the measurements:
Casting Rod:
The tip diameter is .172" - .174" which equates to 11.07 64ths.
The tip shoulder is .681" long.
The plastic insert ID is .254" - .258" which equates to 6.50 mm.
The plastic insert OD is .481" which equates to 12.22 mm
Conclusion: I need a 12/11 tip-top (12mm & 11/64)
Spinning rod:
The tip diameter is .0915" - .0930" which equates to 5.90 64ths.
The tip shoulder is .621" long.
The ring and insert are both missing but the distance between the "arms" (where the ring used to reside) is .295" which equates to 7.49 mm
Conclusion: I need a 7.5/6 (7.5mm & 6/64)
Does this make sense to the experts?
Does anyone out there have any old NOS tip-tops they'd be willing to sell?
As always, thank-you in advance!
haunting ebay is probably the best bet..
I find for example Fuji Vintage Chrome PHT (https://www.ebay.com/itm/371555956591?hash=item568275f76f:g:jmEAAOSwDuJWw~XR&var=640576212520) which looks exactly like the casting rod tip, unfortunately not in the right size.
Had the same problem trying to replace some light wire guides on an Abu casting rod, never did find a match. I went with some Mudhole guides that look vaguely similar, a bit sad but at least the rod is fishable again.
Hi Douge, you can make them guides out of stainless steel spring wire or SS leed wire.
getting back to the tip, make sure the tip you buy, is good for braid line, good luck, cheers Don.
Quick update: I emailed the Ebay seller from the link that Doug posted. He is currently checking his inventory and is supposed to get back to me. I'll report back...
Unless I am mistaken rings are measured from the outside diameter of the insert. That's why an alconite ring and an alum oxide ring can use the same frame but the inner diameter of the ring will be different.
If it were me I would measure the diameter of the next guide down and match that. If you get a .5 round up.
Yet another question from someone who hasn't done this before: the end guide on the casting rod has an insert but none of the other guides on that rod have inserts (ie they are all metal). Does this mean that the end guide was already replaced or was it common practice back then for none of the guides except the end one to have a plastic insert?
Can you post a photo of the guides & the label? The model makes a big difference. Most Garcia Conolon rods that I have seen with wire guides had a carboloy tip-top, except for their cheapest grades. Some of their highest grade models had all carboloy guides.
Tom, attached are the pictures...they are labeled accordingly for the casting and spinning rods (I have the same question for both rods since I need tip-top guides for each one). The casting rod is a 2159A but unfortunately the model number of the spinning rod is mostly worn off so all I can read is ___5-D. Interestingly, I just noticed the spinning rod has a separate label that says Tungsten Carbide Tip-Top (see last photo). Thanks in advance!
The pics tell a lot. It's clear now that the spinning rod has a carbide, sometimes called carboloy, tip-top.
The current tip on the Custom is ceramic, (hardloy). The other guides are carbide. That tip-top may have been changed at some point. Generally, when Garcia started using the ceramic guides, all the guides were ceramic, not just the tip-top. Also, when all the other guides were carbide, so was the tip-top. The lesser amount of brown thread there leads me to think it may have been changed. Was there any thread under the tip when you removed it?
You should still be able to find matching tips for both rods, though.
Tom,
No, I didn't see any brown thread underneath the Custom casting rod tip top when I removed it. Just so I'm on the same page, it sounds like you are thinking that most likely all the guides on both rods should be carbide (ie no ceramic inserts), yes?
No, just the tip-top on the spinning rod was carbide. The wire guides on it look to be original. I'm thinking all the guides on the casting rod were carbide, though.
Tom, how does one tell the difference between a wire guide and a carbide guide? Again, forgive my ignorance as this is new territory for me.
These guides and tip top are close.
https://mudhole.com/collections/tip-top-guides/products/crb-ssr-light-duty-tip-top-guides-model-xlt?variant=34476528861317 (https://mudhole.com/collections/tip-top-guides/products/crb-ssr-light-duty-tip-top-guides-model-xlt?variant=34476528861317)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0275/1342/1957/products/CRB-SSR-Light-Duty-Tip-Top-Guides-Model-XLT_Polished-1_700x.jpg?v=1595309598)
https://mudhole.com/products/crb-wire-frame-boat-rod-guides-braced?variant=34099339034757 (https://mudhole.com/products/crb-wire-frame-boat-rod-guides-braced?variant=34099339034757)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0275/1342/1957/products/CRB-Wire-Frame-Boat-Rod-Guides-Braced-Frame_Chrome-1_700x.jpg?v=1589384984)
Quote from: Walleye Guy on April 02, 2022, 05:18:39 AMTom, how does one tell the difference between a wire guide and a carbide guide? Again, forgive my ignorance as this is new territory for me.
You should be able to lay your rods side by side and tell the difference. Carbide guides are thicker and have a somewhat flatter appearance than the more rounded appearance of the wire in wire guides. You can also go to Mudhole.com and check out the pics. I can't remember if they actually carry carbide tip-tops, I haven't been there in a couple of years. In any event, you can Google carbide guides and see lots of examples on the image tab.
I ordered one of those CRB tip top gauges to help verify the tip top sizes I need.
The tip top gauge arrived and I used it to measure the rod tips. Here is what I found:
Spinning rod: the rod tip fits into the 6.5 hole nicely, so this one should be a 6.5 for the tip-top tube.
Casting rod: I have to continually rotate the gauge around the rod tip while sliding it up to the shoulder to fit the rod tip into the 11 hole, but it slips onto the 12 with a little bit of slop. Would this be considered an 11 or 12? It looks like there could be some leftover glue on the tip even though I tried to gently scrape it clean, so maybe it's an 11.
Personally I like to go up a half, so there is room for the adhesive to mate, intstead of being pushed out of the tubeand maybe not leaving much inside.
Quote from: thorhammer on April 13, 2022, 03:05:31 PMPersonally I like to go up a half, so there is room for the adhesive to mate, intstead of being pushed out of the tubeand maybe not leaving much inside.
I agree. Make sure you have enough play to allow for some glue.
Thank-you, that's helpful. Based on those two responses, I'll need a 7 for the spinning rod and could probably get by with an 11 for the casting rod since there is some slop when inserted into the #11 hole. Question about the guide eye/ring size (see attached picture of the CRB tip-top gauge I purchased): am I supposed to fit the ring OVER the plastic boss (which will be measuring the ID of the ring) or am I supposed to line up the OD with the plastic boss to match the ring OD? Again, I'm a newbie at this so please forgive my ignorance.
Man, just use a caliper. Ring size isn't in 64ths of an inch it's mm so its easier. You measure the outer diameter of the insert to get the ring size. (Fuji alconite and aluminum oxide rings share the same frame but the ring is different)
never had one of those plastic thangs, but pretty sure the holes & pegs match up
you stick the old tip-top onto the peg OR stick the rod tip into the corresponding hole,
to get the tube ID in 64ths, for the new tip-top... (though, like Jason mentioned,
it's more precise to measure the actual blank tip w/ calipers, after whatever surface prep and/or under-wrap)
Now that I have the tube size pretty much figured out, how do I determine the correct ring size for both of these rods? If you recall from the beginning of this post, the casting rod tip-top is probably not original and the spinning rod tip-top is missing the ring portion.
Generally, in my experience, the tip-top ring is the same size as the first ring below it or one size smaller. I prefer the tip-top to be a size smaller if I can get one, but some prefer them to be the same size.
Tom, when you do this are you comparing the ring ID or the ring OD?
I concentrate on the inside diameter. I know ceramic rings are sized according to the outside diameter but I think it is stupid to size wire rings by the inside and ceramic by the outside, the line goes through inside of the circle so, to me, that's what matters. The ring thicknesses don't vary a whole lot when you get down to the smallest sizes. I take that into consideration.
I found this auction on Ebay and I think the size is correct for my casting rod, however it's labeled for spinning rods. Are spinning rod tip-tops different than casting rod tip-tops? The guides on my casting rod all have a rectangular cross section whereas the spinning rod guides all have a round cross section. Maybe that's the difference?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154454426661?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=71a0ecba0d0d44b9964cf773dd76643b&bu=43197130091&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20220419204818&segname=11051&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid
For the tip, a spinning rod tip generally has the eye at 90 degrees to the blank, where casting tips are slightly angled.
Well, I'm pretty sure I know what I need now but am unable to find it on Ebay or at Mudhole. I sent a few emails to different sellers but no one has my particular size. Does anyone out there have any old vintage guides they'd be willing to sell? For the casting rod I need a tungsten carbide with a #12 tube size and either a 10mm or 11mm ring. Looks like Mildrum brand would be a good candidate although there are probably other manufacturers from back in the day. If someone has an assortment, then I'd probably buy a few different ring sizes all with the #12 tube just so I can figure out which one seems like the best candidate. Regarding the spinning rod, I think I was able to acquire an acceptable tip top. The gentleman who I ordered the plastic CRB gauge from was kind enough to throw in an 8-6 (8mm Ring - 6/64 Tube Diameter) for free. Unfortunately he didn't have any with a #12 tube size, though.
I did some more searching but unfortunately keep striking out. I called Mudhole and they do carry carbide tip-tops but they look much different than the original style so I'm hoping to locate an original looking one for this particular rod. Does anyone out there have a Secret Stash and want to make a little $? I would be very grateful. :al
You may need to consider a tip that doesn't match original. And if that is the case you can certainly say you tried.
Sorry for my delayed update. I acquired the new tip-tops and meanwhile life took over and the rods sat in the corner of the dining room unrepaired until last weekend when I got the bug to install them. Unfortunately I had a lot on my mind at the time so in my haste I goofed and ended up installing the wrong tip-top but after giving it some thought I think it looks more original. For those of you who are more purists with old gear, would you mind taking a look at the pictures below and letting me know your opinion on which one would be more correct? The installed tip-top is a vintage carbide part that, to me, looks more like what I've seen on other Garcia Conolon rods as I've poked around online looking for reference pictures. The shinier tip-top on the top is the one I purchased and it is also a carbide ring. It's more of a 90-degree shape and the center-to-center distance from the tube to the ring might be a little greater than the one currently installed. If I stick with the one already installed (I'll refer to it as the vintage tip-top) I'm going to see if I can polish it to bring some of the shine back. The second picture is the last guide so you can see what the rest of the guides look like...they are all polished and I think are also carbide rings (correct me if I'm wrong). Thanks in advance, I couldn't have gotten this far without help from all of you.
Looks quite good, if it were mine I would now, place some two pack epoxy, or clear nice paint hardener, around it once it sets, it will give it that little bit of exstra strength, also see the guide below the tip, were the thread finnishes, at the but of the guide, if you can full that area to stop the salt water from geting in there, it will last a lot longer, just dip a tooth pick into some two pack or what ever your using, as it drips of the tooth pick, it should run down inside, your doing a very good job of placing pictures on the forum, so maybe some pics of fish you catch with with it, would be great, just remember to leave some fish for us, cheers Don.
I think the vintage tip-top looks more period correct even though the tungsten is natural, not plated. I doubt you'll be able to shine it up, though. The new one has the wrong angle, IMO. If you want to keep all the wraps looking original and the same be careful about coating with epoxy. It doesn't look like that's epoxy on the next guide wrap, it looks more like multiple coats of rod varnish.
Don, thanks for the tip on adding some two-part epoxy to the slight gap between the old wrap and the end of the tip-top. This rod most likely won't see any salt water but I'm guessing your point is valid for fresh or salt water. I will definitely post pics of any fish that I catch. Hopefully a nice big toothy muskie will be in my future. ;D
Tom, thanks for your opinion on which one looks more correct. The 90-degree angle of the purchased part didn't look right to me either. When I mentioned polishing it I meant the tip-top body since like you said the ring isn't plated. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. And, duly noted on coating with epoxy.
While I have you guys on the phone, let me sneak in another question. I read online and saw videos online of two methods to install tip-tops. The first method is to cut slivers of the glue, insert the slivers into the tip-top, then heat the tip-top and once the glue is bubbling insert the rod tip while rotating the tip-top. The second method is to heat the glue stick with a lighter, roll the rod into the liquid glue and then insert the tip-top onto the rod tip while rotating. Is there a benefit to one versus the other? Just asking because we glued my brother's tip-top on last weekend using the second method (heating the glue stick with a lighter) and when he fished on Sunday the glue bond broke. I wasn't sure if our method was wrong or maybe the tolerance between the rod tip OD and ID of the tip-top was too tight so not enough volume for glue.
1) leave old carbide on per Tom. Looks great.
2) never heard of the strip method. You oversize your tip by a bit to have room for glue and use method 2 as described. 3) It's hot glue. I'd NEVER just trust hot glue. Overwrap bottom of tip tube with thread and use an epoxy overcoat, making sure you get epoxy both below the wrap on the blank and above the wrap on the tip to seal it into one unit. I start wraps at the bottom of tip tube, wrap down half an inch or so, then overwrap back up to have a smoother transition up onto the tip. May have a small bulge there after epoxy but no more so or better than commercial rods, and I have NEVER had a tip break free- even on AFTCO's fighting 8 foot sharks, using this method. I would only use on just tip glue in an emergency catching panfish. But I wouldnt like it.
To those who are familiar with the old rods like this Garcia Conolon example, are the other guides also carbide or is just the tip top carbide? The cross section of the other rings are more oval like a wedding ring (ie not round) so they "look" carbide. I'm just curious but obviously don't want to verify with a file from my toolbox. ;D See picture below for an example of one of the other guides...
Well, lookey what I found online.
My rod says 2159-A (the catalog says 2159...not sure why the A is missing) but it appears to be the same thing.
According to the ad, the other guides are hard-chromed (not tungsten carbide).
For future reference, here is the link for anyone else looking to do more reading about Garcia Conolon rods:
http://realsreels.com/RodsGarcia.html
Good for you! Too bad you didn't find that early on. :D
The tungsten carbide will have a different finish/patina. They are a darker color and notoriously brittle.
I bought a handful of Conolon rods at the same time, this rod was included, for a great price because it was winter and I thought it would be fun to dabble in rod repair. The rods are in great shape but somehow about half the guides are smashed or broken. I dunno what happened to them. I just assumed that this rod had a tungsten tip because some of the others did and the previous owner (I bought them from his son) did some saltwater fishing for a brief time. However, according to the ad, it has a "ceramic Conoglide tip top".
So, now that I know that I wonder if the tip-top that was on the rod when I bought it is the original. It's broken and needs replacing (it can't be seen in the pictures but the solder joint on the bottom of the tube is broken so the support "wires" aren't anchored).
Comparing that one to the shiny tungsten tip-top I purchased shows that they both have the 90-degree bend.
See pics below.
Hmmm, maybe I'll swap the vintage tip for the polished tip-top after all...
Someone good and neat at soldering can easily reattach that bracing to the tube such that you will barely be able to tell it was resoldered. The main thing is to do it before it's reinstalled on the rod.
Should it be silver solder? I'm very good at soldering electrical connections but I've never used silver solder.
Silver solder is stronger but you have to get things hotter with it. I think I would go with regular solder first. You can always use silver solder later if it isn't strong enough.