So on the advice of folks on here more experienced than myself I decided to try out building up a reel seat arbor with mesh drywall tape. Well I must have done something wrong because the whole dang thing slid off the blank like nothing. And I really globbed on That epoxy. That woulda been a sight to see, breaking free on a fully built rod.
I think I need a new reel seat.
What kind of epoxy did you use? Did you scuff the blank before applying the tape and epoxy?
I have only used drywall tape a time or two, I just use masking tape to build up the arbor. Something really must have gone wrong for the whole thing to come off like that - if you are using U-40 or something similar I don't think there is any way that is even possible.
Been using drywall tape for years, might have been one of the earliest to suggest it on here. Never had that happen in literally 100's of rods. I don't actually scuff the blank, but usually the inside of the reel seat fitting to make a good key for the resin to bond.
Cannot imagine what you have done there, I just use 2 or 3 narrow strips and then a 5 minute resin, simple and no fuss.
I used "Fibatape" brand drywall tape. I didn't exactly follow directions since I built up the whole arbor not just strips. But it appeared the glue didnt soak past the tape, and the adhesive of the tape seemed to also interfere. A lot, in fact, because even though I had sanded and acetoned the inside of the seat before installation (and used half a tube of 5min) in the span of about 20 minutes I managed to pull the tape/glue conglomeration out of the reel seat and reuse the seat, with a tape I'm more familiar with.
I think I had the wrong drywall tape. Are you using one with an adhesive in it?
The question that needs answering is how did you manage to reuse a reel seat with 1/2 tube of 5 minute ,20 minutes later ? Mixing problem ?
No I had "attached" it the day before, glue was cured. Tried to pull off the unglued but kinda jammed foam grip and the seat moved instead.
It then took 20 min to pull the cylinder of glue and tape out of the inside of the seat. My suspicion is the adhesive and the epoxy enthusiastically do not play nice, and the adhesive that had rubbed off on the inside of the reel seat prevented it from sticking well. But I had to get it started with a blade and pry it off. So it definitely stuck to the seat just not well enough. It certainly wasn't easy and may have been more than 20 minutes.
Well than I would retry the glue and tape on a dowel and see if it was the tape glue that was the problem so we all can learn something .
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 03, 2022, 07:24:29 PMWell than I would retry the glue and tape on a dowel and see if it was the tape glue that was the problem so we all can learn something .
Great idea. Will do. I still have a lot of potentially useless tape.
I use butcher string layed and wrap to the thickness you need. Take it off, lay epoxy, lay a layer, lay epoxy, etc until its back on and wet with epoxy. Slide reel seat on and done. A monolithic epoxy bushing. Never failed.
Eugene
A compatibility test between the tape and your chosen resin, prior to use might have been a smart move, as with all non-specific materials used in rod building. A worse case might have been a flash set between the drywall tape and the resin, where a huge unfinished mess might have ensued.
There are lots of materials that are not compatible with typical rod building materials - like seamstress cotton/nylon threads - most are impregnated with silicone or similar which will react with the thread resin and nearly never set.
All part of the 'school fees', that need to be paid for learning a new craft.
You need to epoxy as you wrap the tape, not after. If the viscosity of the epoxy is thin enough to work through the offset voids in multiple layers of tape, it is also going to flow to the bottom and drip out. Use paste epoxy. It stays where you put it. I like PC-7 and PC-11 - better stuff and cheaper than the rod making products IMHO.
Smear a bit on the blank, then a couple wraps of tape, spatula in some more epoxy to fill the voids, repeat until desired diameter is achieved. you need to limit the voids, which is hard to do if you do all the wraps first and spread epoxy over the top. The paste will also fill the voids between the ribs on the inside of the seat, providing a full fit with greater mechanical bonding.
The PC paste products do not need a perfect mix ratio to set properly. I think that this is a feature of many paste epoxies. Good paste is actually very useful. It can be built up and shaped, surface smoothed with alcohol when wet, and sanded when dry. I use it to repair and patch all kinds of projects.
I have used liquid epoxy (Not 5 minute!) over mesh drywall tape in a pinch, but it is messy and not much fun - too runny.
-J
X2 on PC7. It's all I use for reel seats. I tried drywall tape a couple times and didn't care for it. I use garden variety masking tape to build up arbors and then PC7 paste. Never had a failure
Quote from: Swami805 on April 04, 2022, 03:59:25 AMX2 on PC7. It's all I use for reel seats. I tried drywall tape a couple times and didn't care for it. I use garden variety masking tape to build up arbors and then PC7 paste. Never had a failure
Jason, hear this guy. ;) thank me later
I tried once drywall tape and I didnt like it at all, you cant go wrong with the masking tape arbors, I also use epoxy paste to glue the reelseat, the arbors are only there to center the reelseat, what bonds the reelseat to the blank is the epoxy paste between the arbors.
Yeah I ended up using 5 min epoxy with masking tape arbors. I basically coated the arbors, slid the seat down over the top arbor and almost all the way to the bottom arbor, then dumped in the rest of the other half the tube (already mixed) into the opening then slid the rest of the way into place. So there's roughly half a tube of epoxy almost filling that previously empty space. It feels very secure.
But i will certainly look into the paste epoxy. There's always room for improvement.
5 minute epoxy is not very strong, sets too fast to penetrate well, not enough time to properly hand mix larger batches, and does not have long enough working time to apply and clean up any smears, at least for somebody who works a slow as me :). I only like using it for attaching tip guides, since it will usually come right off with a flick of heat from a lighter if the tip needs replacement.
I like to give my rods a good freshwater soak before long storage to get all the salt out of the nooks and crannies, so I do not like to use anything water soluble and capable of getting moldy, like paper masking tape. And just as matter of principle, I don't like using materials that can't get wet around water, even if they are not providing structural support...
I am not the most skilled craftsman when it comes to rod building, so I am a bit perplexed as to the difficulty some folks report using mesh tape and paste epoxy. I was happy when I stumbled across this method as it was faster, easier, less messy and stronger than anything else that I had tried.
But if paper tape dams works for other folk, I am not going to argue. I just don't want it myself.
-J
Quote from: jigmaster501 on April 03, 2022, 09:32:34 PMI use butcher string layed and wrap to the thickness you need. Take it off, lay epoxy, lay a layer, lay epoxy, etc until its back on and wet with epoxy. Slide reel seat on and done. A monolithic epoxy bushing. Never failed.
Eugene
Exactly the way I do it. The glue must penetrate all the way to the blank for it to be effective. It can be a little messy until you get the hang of it, but it works. I also use the Propaste, it stays put and it is made for rod building. I started with the five minute stuff and so far, I haven't had a failure but the paste epoxy is so much easier. I also Scotchbrite the blank and the inside of the reelseat.
Dave, I ended up doing the 5min and tape because that's what I had available and it's a known workable solution, not because I thought it a better option. And certainly not because I'm disregarding the value of the time you and others have put into educating me.
I am ordering some pc7 for next time. I'm gonna file it under "very highly recommended."
Devils advocate time though, if I may be so indulged. Say one is prepping both blank and inside of seat surfaces. And also very thoroughly covering the top and both sides of the masking tape dam and also filling in both the inner gap between the dams and the (very small) gap between the outside of the dams and the grips with more epoxy. how is water getting in?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 07, 2022, 01:13:59 PMDave, I ended up doing the 5min and tape because that's what I had available and it's a known workable solution, not because I thought it a better option. And certainly not because I'm disregarding the value of the time you and others have put into educating me.
I am ordering some pc7 for next time. I'm gonna file it under "very highly recommended."
Devils advocate time though, if I may be so indulged. Say one is prepping both blank and inside of seat surfaces. And also very thoroughly covering the top and both sides of the masking tape dam and also filling in both the inner gap between the dams and the (very small) gap between the outside of the dams and the grips with more epoxy. how is water getting in?
If you're not using a paste type epoxy, your five minute epoxy is just sagging, creating gaps for water intrusion unless you turn it. The beauty of the paste is it stays put where you put it and sags very little unless you really gobb it on. I do use the paste and I do try to seal everything off but it does not always work out like that. The fall back is you are dependent on a good bond first and foremost and a little water will not hurt. Keeping water out of anything is difficult at best. I also put my rod on a "dryer" and turn it so everything stays put. This would be beneficial if you use the five minute stuff. Before I had a dryer, I'd just rotate by hand for a few minutes.
I prefer these, they are lighter and transmit vibration better.
https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors (https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0275/1342/1957/products/Polyurethane-Arbors_0-1_700x.jpg?v=1628258462)
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 07, 2022, 01:13:59 PMDave, I ended up doing the 5min and tape because that's what I had available and it's a known workable solution, not because I thought it a better option. And certainly not because I'm disregarding the value of the time you and others have put into educating me.
I am ordering some pc7 for next time. I'm gonna file it under "very highly recommended."
Devils advocate time though, if I may be so indulged. Say one is prepping both blank and inside of seat surfaces. And also very thoroughly covering the top and both sides of the masking tape dam and also filling in both the inner gap between the dams and the (very small) gap between the outside of the dams and the grips with more epoxy. how is water getting in?
Good question. Since the liquid epoxy is liquid, it will always be trying to sink to the lowest point and seep out. In addition to potentially leaking out, there is the possibility of voids.
Commercial product used to be glued up this way, and had a pretty high degree of failure (search the web for reel seats spinning). As you point out, a diligent custom builder will do a careful enough job to get both good adhesion and a good seal. And the seal doesn't have to be perfect, as few folks go to the extreme of soaking rods like I do. And even if the tape gets wet, the seat isn't coming off. It is just an extra step/risk to put something water soluble in a rod and then try to seal it fully.
I asked a respected custom builder why he used tape arbors, and the answer was that was how he was taught, and he didn't want to experiment on his customers when he didn't have any problems. Which is a valid point. Tape arbors bother me more than they should :)
We are all learning from each other here. It could easily turn out that 5 minute works better than I think it would for reel seats. I just build a couple rods a year for myself and friends, so I am no expert. And the best questions are usually the impertinent ones...
-J
I'll confess that I have never wrapped a rod but I have a lot of experience with a wide variety of adhesives. I'm going to share a YouTube link of some stuff called RocketPoxy. This is a very strong epoxy that has two properties that I believe would make it ideal for reel seats. 1) It is very thick so it doesn't drip much. It's thicker than a paste and you can control its viscosity by cooling or warming it. 2) The working time is about an hour but the cure time is much slower. The benefits are that the 'wetting' properties are very good and the cure time is slow enough that it is self-leveling. Gravity will help move it to where you want it to cure. One additional benefit is that it will readily accept pigment. The base color is an opaque beige. Some users will mix it and let it set for 20 minutes or so before applying it. This lets bubbles out and shortens the working time, also makes it a little stiffer. These guys are building high-power amateur rockets with it so you can bet it is very strong.
I don't have a vendor to recommend but you can google it and shop around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTPKaR5abc4
Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 03:07:22 PM..
And even if the tape gets wet, the seat isn't coming off. It is just an extra step/risk to put something water soluble in a rod and then try to seal it fully.
I asked a respected custom builder why he used tape arbors, and the answer was that was how he was taught, and he didn't want to experiment on his customers when he didn't have any problems. Which is a valid point. Tape arbors bother me more than they should :)
same.. don't care for the idea of tape arbors and having that potential vulnerability.. I'd lie awake at night worrying ;-)
always used the butcher string in an open diamond weave, then saturate with slow cure epoxy. The open weave lets the epoxy glue to the blank, the saturated string is now very permanently waterproof. Still fishing rods I built in the 70s this way..
Quote from: Keta on April 07, 2022, 02:19:11 PMI prefer these, they are lighter and transmit vibration better.
https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors (https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0275/1342/1957/products/Polyurethane-Arbors_0-1_700x.jpg?v=1628258462)
Key words transmit vibration :d
Quote from: oldmanjoe on April 09, 2022, 01:36:14 AMQuote from: Keta on April 07, 2022, 02:19:11 PMI prefer these, they are lighter and transmit vibration better.
https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors (https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0275/1342/1957/products/Polyurethane-Arbors_0-1_700x.jpg?v=1628258462)
Key words transmit vibration :d
What, so the fish hears my loud #### clicker?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 09, 2022, 01:49:09 AMQuote from: oldmanjoe on April 09, 2022, 01:36:14 AMQuote from: Keta on April 07, 2022, 02:19:11 PMI prefer these, they are lighter and transmit vibration better.
https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors (https://mudhole.com/collections/arbors/products/polyurethane-arbors)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0275/1342/1957/products/Polyurethane-Arbors_0-1_700x.jpg?v=1628258462)
Key words transmit vibration :d
What, so the fish hears my loud #### clicker?
You can turn the clicker off !!! :d :ct
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on April 09, 2022, 01:49:09 AMWhat, so the fish hears my loud #### clicker?
No, so you can feel light bites and the make up of the bottom better when drift fishing for steelhead. Epoxy is heavy and you can cut the finished weight of your rods using these. They also eliminate voids.