A couple (ok, 'several') questions while tearing down a Penn 118 (16/0), if I may. And between just the probable age of the reel and the fact that a couple of the post screwheads are 'buggered-up', I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one in it, so some of this may be a bit like re-building Humpty-Dumpty.
1) I counted 5 thick drag washers, yet Scott's schematic shows a total of 7. I'm not sure what material they are (and I'm not sure which is which in Alto Mare's excellent tutorial).
a. How many should I have?
b. Is the quantity a matter of HT100 vs original, or maybe is it in getting the right drag setting?
c. And I'm reading that HT-100 is now the preferred type. Grease or not?
2) Similarly, I have 5 metal drag washers and not 7 (per schematic & Alto). Same question: how many should I have?
3) This is the only teardown that I've done that has actual spool ball-bearings.
a. Do they get grease, or oil? Alto's tutorial shows grease, but the others I'm doing (a 67LongBeach and 500Jigmaster, so far) have more like a sleeve or bushing instead, and say "oil" on the face.
b. Which does the 67 & 500 (et al) get?
4) I managed to save the #14 Dog Spring (which is more than I can say for the 67LongBeach after I opened it – gotta remember to get LOTS of spares!), but the schematic also shows a little v-shaped piece as well which I didn't see – nor is it in Alto's tutorial. Was it superseded/optional/incorrect?
5) This one may be a bit confusing, but here goes. The washer in #86 position that I removed is a red fiber material, while Scott's & Alto seems to show a metal washer. I had a beveled washer for #8, a flat washer with 2 inside flats for #49, and nothing for #4.
a. If I understand this so far, I need to put an HT-100 washer for #4, get a new tension spring/washer for #8, and put the washer with the flats for #49, right?
b. Alto went too fast for the #86 location, while Scott's seems to indicate 2 different washers at #86. Do I use just the beveled washer for #86? If not, I'm lost...
6) One more question (for now, anyways). I found 3 very thin copper(?) washers on the left side between the bearing and spool itself and 5 more correspondingly on the right side, which don't show up from Alan or the schematic. Should they be there? Are they just shims to align/space everything properly? Comments?
I apologize for the lengthy post, but I want to get these right.
PS: My questions remind me of the time I tried my hand at restoring English Sports Cars for awhile, and for that I now forgive myself for my thoughts at the time. A guy came in with LITERALLY a shoebox of parts, and said he'd tried to rebuild the carburetors himself but couldn't do it. So he'd gathered up everything (new and old parts mixed together, as well as a few extras as I found out later) and brought them to me. He said it shouldn't be that tough for someone with my experience, and therefore wasn't willing to pay an outrageous price. I tried to prove him right, but I ended up eating my shirt on that job.
Thanks, y'all.
Hello dogdad1,
(1)Your reel comes with (5) washers, upgrading to carbon fiber washers will bring you to (7), The carbon and metal washers in the (7) kit are thinner, that is why you'll need two more. The material of the (5) drags is similar to the brake pads on cars, but if you have an older model it could be aspestos. No matter if you use (5) drag stack or (7) you should always end with a metal keyed washer and the metal beveled washer last. By the way, a touch of Cal's grease on the drags is a good thing.
(2)Same as above.
(3)Bearings on a reel of this size should always be greased, as for the smaller reels...it's up to you, either is fine.
(4)Sorry don't know much about the v-shape piece.
(5)Here is how I do it from the bridge plate, hang in there:
carbon-main gear-carbon-keyed-carbon-eared-carbon-keyed-carbon-eared-carbon-keyed-carbon-eared-carbon-keyed-beveled-drag cover-tension spring-star drag-handle spacer-handle. I hope I didn't lose you.
(6)Yes, the copper washers are spacers, used to keep the spool centered and to minimize sideway play...if you have too much play.
I hope that this is helpful, don't apologize for the long post, next time I just won't answer you. Just kidding, that's what we're here for, take care, Sal
Perfect, absolutely perfect, Sal. Thank you so much. It feels like you're right there next to me... pointing out my errors.
Is the carbon-fiber washers the same as HT-100?
Perhaps the little v-piece doesn't actually exist in the reel?
This information will also come in very useful when I get into some of the others I'll be working on. I can already see that Penn reels in general mostly differ only in size of the parts (with obvious exceptions like LevelWinds, etc). I now understand some of the posts asking things like if so-and-so part can be swapped from model to another. Nice.
Thanks again,
Ron
QuoteThis is the only teardown that I've done that has actual spool ball-bearings.
a. Do they get grease, or oil?
Higher speeds require lower viscousity lubrication in order to stay on the part. Since the diameter of the 16/0 is so large, the shaft on the bearing will turn relatively slowly. Additionally, grease generally has the ability to withstand higher pressures than oils, so a larger reels needs a heavier lube like grease. Smaller reels for casting require a lighter lube because of the very high spindle speeds (less drags and "sticks" better to the bearing surfaces). They also don't need to withstand as high pressures so oils are preferred.
Quote
the schematic also shows a little v-shaped piece as well which I didn't see – nor is it in Alto's tutorial
Are you referring to the actual dog? Can you post and image of the part you're referring to?
Ok, your explanation of grease vs oil makes it clearer. Makule. I was going with the idea that grease is a lot less susceptible to wash-out in water than oil and therefore more 'stickier' and the preferred lube for something that sees periodic splashing and immersion. And you're right about the viscosity, I can just see my old 650SS with some 100-wt gear-grease in it, probably break off the handle before it moves.
I'm guessing the little v-piece is a red herring, since no one has one. Attached is a cutaway of part of the schematic (with apologies to Penn, et al), with the piece in question one of the two labeled #14 down in the lower-right. The reason I'm so stuck on this is because I've already launched the dog-spring for a 67 out into space (and barely missing the Space Station from what NASA said), and wasn't sure if I missed seeing this one on the launch-pad before it left.
Y'all have been so terrific so far (not to mention patient) as I take these baby-steps. I only hope that I can return the favors some day. Many thanks to all.
You're right dogdad1,it's the Dog Spring. Easily made by cutting a strip off a s/steel razor blade using scissors. Great reel. ;D
Ron,
HT-100s are carbon fiber washers. It's Penn's designation for their carbon fiber washers.
Bryan
Ron, may I ask where you got that picture from? A 16/0 does not come with that type of dog that you're showing, also the dog spring on a 16/0 is coiled not flat. Other parts on that picture are also mismatched. If that reel does exist I want it, It's probably worth some money ;).
Looks like some changes have been made since the schematics were printed. ;)
http://schematics.planetseafishing.com/downloads/penn/multiplier/senator-series/118.pdf
As much as it is hard for me to believe, I think that Scott's has made a little boo-boo on this one.
That schematic is no right.
Ok, now where's that little head-smacking icon when you need it? Guess I'll go with the 'confused' one ??? for now.
My schematic came from Scott's website (I hope that's ok to mention, and I haven't performed some sort of terrible gaff?) and I never compared it to anything else, assuming that since it said "Penn" it was golden. I think I'll get up from crawling around on the floor and stop looking for that piece for now, sounds like it may not exist.
Again, thanks for everyone's help so far. I'm finding that this reel-fixing business is kinda frustrating but awful addicting, gotta say that!!
Ron, everything that I mentioned earlier is right, you should be ok. The dog spring should be coiled not flat.
QuoteI'm finding that this reel-fixing business is kinda frustrating but awful addicting...
Good call Ron - the challenge is half the fun.
Step by step... ;)
Good luck, Justin
Sal is correct: The 14/0 and 16/0 came with coiled dog springs and the dog was not the same as on the smaller Senators (had a little lip to hold the spring if I recall correctly).
Ah-ha! And here I thought I was going mad. Thanks to everyone for confirming my configuration. I feel a bit more confident now, and will proceed with caution.
In studying the 113 Tutorial again in preparation for dissecting my 113, I came across a discussion about the same little v-piece spring that shows in the Penn 118 schematic but really isn't there. I think I may have run across that thread before and somehow got it imprinted in my head that I had one of those too but it had taken flight during my teardown. Hence my confusion.
I guess too much knowledge CAN be a dangerous thing! I'll try to set my bar lower next time.
Hey guys,
I have a ton of projects on my list for Penn corrections, changes and flat out goofs on their schematics.
Since someone actually took the time to email me about the differences, I just bumped this one up to the front of the list.
I've updated Penn's drawing a little bit and added notations to the schematics about older style dog spring and the old style of thicker drag washers, hoping to make things a little more clear.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn117L.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn117L.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn117L_LH.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn117L_LH.aspx)
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn118.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn118.aspx)
~Mo
Thanks, Mo...You're the best. Sal
By the way, welcome Miz Mo. It's nice to have you with us.
Sal
Thanks, Sal
:D I need to start checking in here more often. Not enough hours in the day, lol
Thanks Mo.
Good to see Scotts checking in once and a while to keep us on track.
Bryan
Mo, you just made my day! Thanks so much for bringing things back in perspective.
You'd be amazed at the stuff I found on the floor and under furniture while looking for that 'stooopid' little (now non-existent) bent-copper spring. I was sure I'd seen it initially but managed to lose it and was never going to get the reel back together correctly. Among the mundane, I found a tinted contact lens but I don't wear them and wife's are clear (I'm having a hard time explaining that, I might add), several fish-hooks (they sure stay sharp a long time), and a big dust-bunny that I swear started moving (so I called the dog over to sniff it and give the OK first).
Well, I'm just about ready for my big parts-order, wish me luck.
Oh, and I AM going to get several extras of the spring-type dog-springs for the other reels, just in case (HA! Who am I kidding? Of course, I'll need extras!). I'm not too keen on tangling with that dust-bunny again.
Dogdad1: A good part for me is the humor (humour for you Antipodes) on this site. You gave me a good laugh. I had a picture in my mind of you rolling around on the floor with the dust bunny going for the throat. ;D Good stuff. Dominick
Dust bunny?! Had to look that one up.
Something new everyday... ;)
Cheers for enriching my word-power, Justin
PS The best phrase I've picked up on Alan's site is still 'hydrodynamic wedge' though. ;)
PPS And no, Dominick, it's not wedgie - I looked that up, too. ;) ;D
How did we get from a 16/0 to a dust bunny and wedges ??? ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 27, 2012, 02:52:10 AM
How did we get from a 16/0 to a dust bunny and wedges ??? ;D
Only here on this site and only if we insert humor. ;D
Stay focused guys, but not on the dust bunnies! ::)
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 27, 2012, 02:52:10 AM
How did we get from a 16/0 to a dust bunny and wedges ??? ;D
Dominick...need I say more?
focus........ ;D
Welcome to the site mizmo67 your help is much appreciated.
The 118 Schematics still show the flat spring and two #14's although the coil spring (#14) is listed on the parts list.
Quote from: Pescachaser on February 27, 2012, 02:10:55 AM
Dogdad1: A good part for me is the humor (humour for you Antiodes) on this site. You gave me a food laugh. I had a picture in my mind of you rolling around on the floor with the dust bunny going for the throat. ;D Good stuff. Dominick
The definition of "antiode" from greengonzo.com:
A region of maximum amplitude situated between adjacent nodes of a vibrating body, such as a string.
WHAT ??? ;D
You slay me, Dominick. ;D ;D
I meant Antipodes. I'll go back and edit. Dominick