I have a reel that Keith gave me that is basically only penn screws and springs, the rest aftermarket. Freespool has always been abysmal, like 5 seconds tops. Last night I decided to go in and try to work on it. As it arrived it had a dura-drag setup. Never seen that for a jigmaster, but I digress. I swapped it for the PC 5:1 gear set. Figured maybe it would be better with a different pinion, but frankly i just wanted it faster either way. No improvement. So i tried the routine I learned from user Pacrat and removed the bridge and put the reel together with just spool and frame, to see what freespool should be like with zero pinion rub. Got a good 25 second free spool. Not crazy but given the magnet i got in there that's pretty acceptable, and now I know my target range.
Reel has an aftermarket double dog bridge, and what looks like an aftermarket stainless yoke.
So where do I start?
I think pro challenger made the gear set. Pretty common to have something that needs a tweak or two to get everything working right with all those upgrades. Sometimes the ears on the yoke don't line up and you need to bend them a little. Try a stock yoke and see if that's it before you start bending.
Can be pretty frustrating, if it gets that way put it aside for a day and come back to it.
I think this is really common with highly modified Jigmasters...sort of what I call 'pinion tilt'. With a stock JM, you don't have this issue because that little collar at the tip of the bushing rides inside the counter-bore at the end of the pinion gear. This keep everything lined up pretty good for what it was designed to do...chucking jigs.
Sal and I discussed this a lot and his best advice was to polish both the shaft and the inside of the pinion gear, then run just a tiny drop of oil to prevent rust and possibly reduce a little friction.
We also discussed messing around with the springs, yoke, and especially the eccentric jack in an attempt to keep the pinion gear parallel to the shaft when in freespool. It's not as easy as it sounds. I broke the tab off a stainless jack trying to tweak the tabs. I mostly went back to brass after that.
You can get everything dialed in without the drive train and you will have a baseline of the possibilities. Then put your guts back in and tweak away for maximum freespool.
Your needs will vary depending on what your casting and how far you need to cast. Out here on the West Coast, I use my Jigmasters for tossing jigs or lead. But when fly-lining pin-head anchovies, I grab a Newell with light line.
I know it's fun to watch those 'long freespool' videos but it's mostly for bragging rights and may not make that much difference on the water. Are you timing your freespool with a full spool? Mass makes a difference. A trick I use to time is to spin consistently. If I'm just using my thumb to spin the spool, I'm likely somewhere in the middle of the road and it can vary from spin to spin. So I like to max out the spin by winding a cord around the spool and giving it a spin like a toy top. This always gives you a longer spin time and it's more consistent from spin to spin.
Jason - There are other threads on this; but I will revisit. The minute you said the only original parts are the screws and springs, that sort of dictated the rest. So, first and foremost:
Many of the aftermarket parts available today to modify old reels, and many produced by members of this community, are first rate, high quality improvements on vintage reels. There, I need to get that out up front.
Keep also in mind the production tolerances for "back in the day" when these reels were originally designed and built. We are not talking aerospace levels of tolerances. A typical "+/-" dimension that may mean nothing on a production reel, over a HUGE production run with many parts runs, over decades of production, can actually be significant.
Tolerance stackup. Hit the max dimension on one thing, and the min on another, then add a third, forth, fifth aftermarket component - now they may not like to play nice together.
Hence blueprinting. In the engine world it is not enough to bolt together components, the person that bolts together/measures/verifies is going to be the one that gets the results, even with the same components as the next guy.
Alan, Fred and Tommy to name just a few are masters at Blueprinting. I will say that with my "custom" builds, every one of them would have "worked" had I simply thrown the parts together. I will also say, that while they were all very high quality parts from reputable manufacturers, these things were going into 50 year old reels, and after some attention my custom builds now operate flawlessly (and it was enjoyable to get it there).
Never having been exposed to his work I am NOT slamming on Keith - a lot of folks I respect have nothing but great things to say so that is not where I am going. What I am suggesting is that as you are swapping/introducing components that is a good time to break out the calipers, micrometer, and magnifier and look at what is going on. Take notes on everything (this gear was 3.XXX, and the replacement was 3.XXY type stuff).
You have been doing this awhile so I am confident that you will quickly find/solve this and get that Jiggy running smooth. - john
One of the issues that come up often when upgrading these Penns —-
Like John said —- the tolerances are tight when mixing old parts, new parts, partially new parts, etc.
Not all of the parts like to play well together.
When I did a lot of Penn upgrades many years ago —- I was taught some things by a guy we all know of, and another local guy who just did mostly Salt-Water reels — and a lot of upgrades.
One guy was Carl Newell, who made upgraded parts for Penn reels.
The other guy was Joel Popejoy, a retired Police Detective who did a lot of upgrades on Penns for himself and his clients who did dozens of long-range trips on the American Angler.
Both Carl & Joel told me that all that was needed on these Penns —- such as "99ing" a Jigmaster —- was a solid frame such as an Accurate (I used lots of those), a power handle properly tightened, upgraded drags, Newell Bearings, SS sleeve, and an aluminum one-piece spool.
The original sideplates stayed in place.
If going further, with full sideplates and frames and super drag stacks —- there would be "adjustments" required.
It seems we have 3 choices —-
Do a basic upgrade with a solid frame, aluminum spool, upgraded drags, SS sleeve, power crank, and better bearings.
Or, do a full kit with matching sideplates, frame, spool, and components manufactured by someone like Tom at Cortez.
Or, just upgrade the drags, spool, sleeve, and crank.
Nothing wrong with tweaking these reels until we get the bugs out of our builds —- but each one becomes a different challenge.
The more experience we get both on the bench and on the water with these upgrades —- the easier it is to understand and recognize the little tweaks that are relatively simple and quick.
That is one reason why Alan Chui, owner of Pro-Challenger — would send many prototypes to Sal for testing and tweaking. Sal knew how to make the minor adjustments necessary — because he knew exactly how each part should interact with other parts.
Carl & Joel & Sal are gone now —- but they had good advice for me.
Best, Fred
25 sec. Free spool with no guts is ok. I'd start with the pinion being spun on the spool shaft, does it spin well? Next try(if ya got spare parts or a reel you can dissemble) substituting in a different yolk and then a different Eccentric jack. These can cause Pacrat's "pinion tilt" if tweaked.
So I put it in gear, dial the drag back to zero, and give it a spin. I get about 15 seconds. This is getting interesting. I'm going back in tonight.
Try this: put shift lever in gear and slowly move the lever towards Freespool, checking at which point is the pinion disengaged. If it happens near the halfway point, then the jack tabs are bent too far out. Hold your lever at that very point and check Freespool. Try a stock jack
Quote from: foakes on October 04, 2023, 07:46:49 PMBoth Carl & Joel told me that all that was needed on these Penns —- such as "99ing" a Jigmaster —- was a solid frame such as an Accurate (I used lots of those), a power handle properly tightened, upgraded drags, Newell Bearings, SS sleeve, and an aluminum one-piece spool.
Fred,
Is there a torque to properly secure a power handle?
Thanks,
Steve
Quote from: Crab Pot on October 05, 2023, 02:05:23 AMQuote from: foakes on October 04, 2023, 07:46:49 PMBoth Carl & Joel told me that all that was needed on these Penns —- such as "99ing" a Jigmaster —- was a solid frame such as an Accurate (I used lots of those), a power handle properly tightened, upgraded drags, Newell Bearings, SS sleeve, and an aluminum one-piece spool.
Fred,
Is there a torque to properly secure a power handle?
Thanks,
Steve
Probably is, Steve —-
I just really snug them up about 1/8th turn past tight.
Best, Fred
Swapped in factory brass yoke and Jack and now it's way better.
https://youtu.be/XWtcmUMKdd0
Nice job brother!
Another pretty blue reel, huh?
That had plenty of free spool spin time!
Having line on the spool, makes a huge difference!
What do you have a static mag in there?
Quote from: ExcessiveAngler on October 05, 2023, 04:23:00 AMNice job brother!
Another pretty blue reel, huh?
That had plenty of free spool spin time!
Having line on the spool, makes a huge difference!
What do you have a static mag in there?
Yeah i wont hesitate to blast a hole in an abu sideplate because i have like 10+ spares. There's not a snowballs chance in hell I'm taking a drill to this thing. I still plan to get this thing engraved in Keith's memory. This reel is never for sale. But i did 5min epoxy a fat rare earth magnet in there. I can cast just fine without a magnet but I don't wanna be the goofy looking dude with a ratnest on a fancy reel.
nice job Jason, there is a special feeling for personal victories like this
Jason, glad you figured it out all on your own.
Also, Penn specs says tighten the handle nut snug and then go to the next slot for the set screw. If you over-tighten, you could bend the gear sleeve pin and that can cause major issues internally
:) A inquiring mind wants to know what was the problem . I don`t think it was the yoke , I can see a jack cam need tweaking .... With all that free spool , I see birds nests . :d
Jason, if I'm high-jacking your thread let me know and I'll move it over to a new post. I think???? it's relevant though.
Ok, my head is hurting.
Tell me if I got this straight:
Converting 40-50-60 year old Penn side plates with any modern internals (double dog bridge for example AT, Cortez Conversions, Pro Challenger, ect.) expect to do some customizing to fine tune it.
It's not "plug and play"?
I ask because "I'm not that guy" when it comes to figuring out how to trouble shoot and diagnose internal issues.
Would I (notice I didn't say my wallet) be better off buying custom frames and plates to get performance over original side plates?
Thanks,
Steve
If the jack tabs do not disengage fully from the yoke, those ramps on the tab will put angular load on the the yoke, which will put angular load on the pinion which might wedge it a bit on the spool shaft. That bit of misalignment would cause some rubbing.
I would compare the stock to aftermarket jack and yoke and see if there is any differences (part thickness, tab angles, etc.)
I've had some where they worked perfectly right out of the gate, others not so much. The yoke and jack we're normally the culprit
Quote from: oldmanjoe on October 05, 2023, 10:57:48 PMI see birds nests . :d
I don't need a minute of freespool to get birdnests. And i think the problem was the jack. I'll get out the caliper and find out which dimension is different but it was getting late I just wanted to put it together. There's some axial play in the handle, and it seems to bind just a bit, so im going back in anyway, it ain't done yet. Dave described the original problem very succinctly.
Steve, perfectly on topic. I think the issue is its a Cortez one piece body with a PC gear set and spool, no idea who made the bridge, or the yoke and jack. We could be talking 3-5 different part makers in here, not including the penn bits. I bet any of them would probably work just fine with penn parts or installed into an otherwise stock penn reel, because that's what they were all quite independently designed to fit with. They aren't necessarily designed to fit with each other.
The easiest thing to check is the yokes . put one on top of the other ,and look for shadows . Hole spread ,the hole diameters and pinion cut out . No shift in the cut out . The jack is going to need caliper checking !!!
I have been reading along and Jason's post, problems, and solutions, has been an interesting topic.
I use OEM Penn reels so much of this does not concern me, but as a retired toolmaker/machinist (amongst other things) I have had experience fitting moving parts precisely. That being said, if you coat your parts with Dykem Layout Fluid (or even a permanent Sharpie marker) and when dry carefully reassemble the reel lubricant free, and work the reel through its different processes, then disassemble the reel, the odd, uneven, or misaligned wear marks will be quite evident. That is the easiest starting point to determine a misaligned or worn part problem and works especially well with gear sets...showing wear, misalignment of gear teeth etc, or mating parts that need to precisely work in conjunction with one another.
Over the years I have jumped through hoops, going so far as lapping and polishing OEM Penn reel gear sets and internals and it does make a difference in the smoothness of operation, but it is not a necessity...for the general purpose of catching fish, the OEM Penn reels work just fine for me. I liken the OEM Penn reels to the old 45 ACP pistol or the Kalashnikov rifle. The lack of precise tolerances is actually an attribute (they work no matter the conditions). Are they "target" quality, no, but they will stop the enemy. The OEM Penn reels exhibit that same trait.
I would like to own a custom Penn reel for the experience alone...maybe some day.
I intended to get back into that reel last night. I was at work til 10:30 and just plain didn't have the energy. But this is high on my list.
Flat Top
That is Genius!
Thanks FT—-
That is a great procedure to narrow down the culprit on problem reels!
Dykem Layout Fluid or a Perm Sharpie.
Best, Fred
Yeah, I liked your point F-T, about loose tolerances. Something you can abuse and get dirty might continue to function when you really need it to.
My Dad showed me his Arasaka 6.5 mm from the war. He pointed-out that the engineering was purposefully loose so sand and dirt wouldn't affect the action so much. Also, it was easy to take apart and reassemble. A very long rifle(maybe to function as a spear with the bayonet attached), heavy, and it had a metal end piece on the butt(maybe for hammering). I had to buy ammo for it and try it out. Kinda gutless, maybe comparable to a 30-30.
Maybe think of the "easy take apart" Penn's such as the Jig Master.
Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple. -Mikhail Kalashnikov
Quote from: PacRat on October 07, 2023, 02:27:26 AMThings that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple. -Mikhail Kalashnikov
Precisely! When wrist watches were the norm (before cell phones) I owned some very expensive time pieces.....Swiss movements...top of the line. I had a Timex Camper (American made, manual wind) that I wore when hunting and fishing...it was cheap and I thought if I destroyed it, no loss! All my expensive watches have since bit the dust, but the old Timex Camper is still in working order...."takes a lickin', and keeps on tickin'....kind of like a Penn reel!
Quote from: PacRat on October 07, 2023, 02:27:26 AMThings that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple. -Mikhail Kalashnikov
Weeellll Some people think a reel is complex , so does that mean that they should keep wrapping string around a stick . Nothing is complex , when you fully understand it . It`s just a learning curve .
Let me make a spark .
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