Recently I won an auction for a pair of Penn 700 and 704 that needed some TLC
For the 700,I had to fix an incorrectly sized screw, replace the bail spring and bumper and clean out the old grease and judiciously re-grease / re-lube as applicable
Reel works 10x better than before . Thanks for all the help.
I also serviced the 704 I bought as part of the same deal. Same cleaning process and more or less the same refurb process (bail springs, bail bumper and also the arm that the roller attaches to)
Comparing both reels post service, the 704 has a stronger bail return system (2 springs vs the single spring on my 700). I wonder if a 704 bail assembly would fit on a 700 allowing installation of an extra spring . I don't have my calipers with me to measure but I figure someone would know . There's always the option of converting the 700 to bail-less.
That apart, my 704 is smoother than my 700 . I'm not sure what could be causing this . They are almost identical apart from the drag , spool and bail assembly. They've both been serviced in the same manner . The gears on the 700 look okay.
Any chances of making the 700 as smooth as the 704. ?
Sometimes when it comes to smoothness, a new bearing will make all the difference. I've had bearing that I cleaned and serviced that felt smooth outside the reel but the reel didn't like them. After swapping my serviced bearing for a new bearing the reel was as new.
The bearings I serviced were quality bearings and they were flushed clean and re-lubed. Sometimes you just can't bring them back. They will function, but most of us here shoot for perfection.
Mike is right on the bearings —-
Anytime I get a 700-704-706-710 on the bench, I figure they have been used in the salt. So a new bearing is a given. Won't leave the bench without one.
Many years ago, I made up these little "tune-up" kits for 700-704 Penn reels. Still have around 20 or 30 of these.
It includes 10-11 of the most common wear parts that would improve one of these reels drastically. Many of the parts are no longer available or obsolete —- and if bought separately, would total out to about $45 today, plus shipping.
I sell them to our members for $10.
Here are also a couple of new Penn bearings. $10 each.
If you want these, just PM me your mailing address, and I will send them out tomorrow.
The 700 & 704 are terrific HD Surf reels. As tough as they come.
Best, Fred
I have both reels with mpu or bailless. 8) Enjoy your reels! ;D
Thanks .
What's in those kits ?. I think I fixed most of what needed fixing in my reels but might have missed a couple of items such as the handle washer. Also, I haven't touched the drag stack yet . I recognize most of the items from the pic but not all.
I got the bearing out , after a bit of "coaxing" , using an adjustable wrench as a stop and a rubber mallet applied on the shaft with the nut screwed on a couple of turns to protect the threads. Nice to see "Made in USA" on a bearing :)
A little bit of roughness / grit spun by hand with spin time of about 1 second - might be old oil in there .
@Foakes, .. are your bearings original parts, or newer ceramic / sealed ones. Trying to figure out what to pick . I guess this reel will never run like a swiss watch but whatever goes into it has to be reliable and tough.
Also, was considering converting the 700 to MPU or bail-less as the bail spring (even new) is a bit weak compared to the 704. Would you have any of those kits in stock ?
If not, where are folks buying them from?. I see a bunch of sources on the web. I trust the bail-less kit has a counter-balance of some sort ?
I just use OEM parts from Penn, until they run out —- then I'll switch to aftermarket, if needed.
The small parts are just the most common small wear parts that are generally needed.
I don't know too much about the bail-less kits —- others on here would have better info. I have done a few, and have some parts —- but not the time to make sure everything is in the Manual Pickup kits.
Yes, the bearings are Penns.
Best, Fred
I recently replaced the bearings in all my PENN 712s it made a night/day difference.It's the same size 3/8x7/8x9/32 for
PENN 700/4/6/10.Salt water-SS or ceramic.If i get a new reel and break it down it gets a new bearing,the old one could be 50+years old and it's like a new reel again.
Well, if it helps you any lol!
I just rebuilt my 704 and it was so smooth, but a little tight, and figured it would break it with usage!
That is until, I took it out in frigid weather, and could barely crank the reel!
Thank God, I took another reel with me!
The green Penn grease, just got so thick with the temperature change, was just horrible!
I actually had to disassemble the reel, take all the new grease back out, then cut it with penn precision reel oil, what a difference!
Now, it feels like a new reel, just got to figure out, how to get rid of some of the extra play they're known for!
Anybody figured out a hack, for the excessive gear/handle play?
Looks like I could be missing a shim for the handle, not 100% sure!
I don't remember it feeling quite so sloppy?
I degreased the old bearing with a cocktail of naptha, WD-40 and some ether , .. got a lot of the oil and gunk out . The dry bearing now spins for a few seconds and I can occasionally feel a bit of grit . So, I guess that was part of the problem .
Quote from: jgp12000 on October 27, 2023, 04:58:53 PMI recently replaced the bearings in all my PENN 712s it made a night/day difference.It's the same size 3/8x7/8x9/32 for
PENN 700/4/6/10.Salt water-SS or ceramic.If i get a new reel and break it down it gets a new bearing,the old one could be 50+years old and it's like a new reel again.
Yupper lol!
The bearing you sent me, made my reel, feel brand new again! thanks again, James!
The only thing,I would do differently!
Would be to degrease the new bearings, then repack them with something, just a little thinner for the really cold weather!
My 704 got so stiff, in that cold weather, I really could not enjoy using it!
Plus, it was loaded with 65 Power Power Pro that was stiff as could be lol!
Also, figured out there's something wrong with my manual pick up line roller bushing!
I think, I'm just going to mix a little batch up, for the cold winter months!
I do believe, I read some thing about possibly using transmission fluid?
Then mixing that, with some type of automotive grease? Not sure, hopefully somebody will chime in!
I have noticed especially with Mitchell 300s the Yamaha blue grease gets thicker when cold, made me wanna grab a different reel. I haven't noticed it with Superlube or Ardent reel butter though.
I'm rocking Lucas marine grease from Walmart - needed some in a pinch and thats all.they had. Seems.to work so far but it doesn't get that cold here in Texas so I can't vouch for cold weather performance .
JasonGotaProblem may have the bail-less kit for a 700/704. The kit does not have a counterweight it has a disk that replaces the notched flat piece (rotor brake actuator) on the end of the bailwire. The disk in the kit disengages the rotor brake permanently. The kit also has a new mount for the line roller. Once you remove the bailwire and install the bail-less kit the rotor is badly out of balance. You'll feel it when you crank. Some say you won't feel it when it's on the rod but that will depend on the rod weight I'm sure. I didn't like it, figured no good would come of it so I balanced the rotor using split shot and JB Weld.
Another thing I did was cut that notched flat piece off the bailwire, cut another notch in it, tweaked the spring beneath it a little and now I can engage the rotor brake for casting by turning it CCW 1/4 turn. The brake releases automatically when I start cranking.
My 704Z may be a well used (but poorly maintained) early model, black, gold handle, black, cast aluminum spool. Once it was all cleaned and lubed, new bearing it's extremely smooth.
My understanding is there should be a washer(s) under the handle. The thickness determines where the handle will be clocked when the spool is fully extended from the rotor with 6 o'clock (perpendicular to the rod) being the desired position for casting. The washer on my reel goes all the way down the main gear shaft to the bushing in the body. If the washer catches on the shaft after the threads it can tilt and cause binding when cranking.
The slop in these reels is probably to be expected due to the design and their age. They may have been designed with loose tolerances so they could be packed with grease and still function. I only have experience with my own reel, it's kinda loose but nothing I'm concerned about because it's so smooth. There are a lot of areas that can contribute - gear lash, main gear shaft bushing, pinion bushing, crosswind arm, crosswind arm roller, crosswind arm to spool shaft connection, spool shaft to pinion gear fit, pinion gear to pinion bearing fit, pinion bearing to body fit. I think you'll find each and every area to be a little loosey-goosey. If you hold the rotor, rock the handle back and forth, the crosswind arm rises up off the main gear on the backstroke. At least mine does. I think as long as nothing is worn badly enough in mine to cause binding under load it's good to go.
Quote from: OhReely on October 27, 2023, 08:11:41 PMThe slop in these reels is probably to be expected due to the design and their age. They may have been designed with loose tolerances so they could be packed with grease and still, function. I only have experience with my own reel, it's kinda loose but nothing I'm concerned about because it's so smooth. There are a lot of areas that can contribute - gear lash, main gear bushing, pinion bushing, crosswind arm, crosswind arm roller, crosswind arm to spool shaft connection, spool shaft to pinion gear fit, pinion gear to pinion bearing fit, pinion bearing to body fit. I think you'll find each and every area to be a little loosey-goosey. If you hold the rotor, rock the handle back and forth, the crosswind arm rises up off the main gear on the backstroke. At least mine does. I think as long as nothing is worn badly enough in mine to cause binding under load it's good to go.
Thanks . That's pretty much how both of mine feel. I'm assuming even new gear sets won't make much of a difference in this regard ie. the loose tolerances are semi-intentional
:) I would have a good look at # 2 bushing and possibly make a shim if needed .
There's no surf here that mine will get dunked in so I'm not worried about water intrusion. If it does happen it's simple enough to open and clean. If on the other hand I do fish heavy surf I would just pack the gearbox with grease as I heard the old timers talk about. That would probably tighten things up a bit. Right?
I'm trying to track down a handle washer (17-700). No longer available at some of the parts stores. Is there a substitute I could pick up, or something I could search for locally .. at a hardware store ?
If no one here has it
Mystic Reel Parts
Berinson
Ebay
I would think you can use more than one washer if you find one in SS, copper, brass with the right inner and outer dimensions. Stack 'em, it's only a spacer.
There's a seller on eBay right now that has 8 @ $5 each. I made one out of a SS washer but it takes a lot of filing and tweeking to get it to work properly and not bind.
Thanks , mystic is out of stock . I'll check the other sources and pony up for the eBay part if necessary .
Quote from: circlehook on October 28, 2023, 01:19:13 PMI'm trying to track down a handle washer (17-700). No longer available at some of the parts stores. Is there a substitute I could pick up, or something I could search for locally .. at a hardware store ?
If you still need one of these 17-700 SS washers —-
PM me your complete mailing information —- and I'll drop one in the mail.
N/C.
Best, Fred
Quote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 07:49:09 PMQuote from: circlehook on October 28, 2023, 01:19:13 PMI'm trying to track down a handle washer (17-700). No longer available at some of the parts stores. Is there a substitute I could pick up, or something I could search for locally .. at a hardware store ?
If you still need one of these 17-700 SS washers —-
PM me your complete mailing information —- and I'll drop one in the mail.
N/C.
Best, Fred
Where does that washer go Fred?
Or is that only specific to the 700 model?
Only found one washer when I took apart my 704? That's the one, that goes on top of the rotor. This might explain why there's so much play in my reel, or maybe I'm wrong?
Quote from: ExcessiveAngler on October 28, 2023, 08:16:50 PMQuote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 07:49:09 PMQuote from: circlehook on October 28, 2023, 01:19:13 PMI'm trying to track down a handle washer (17-700). No longer available at some of the parts stores. Is there a substitute I could pick up, or something I could search for locally .. at a hardware store ?
If you still need one of these 17-700 SS washers —-
PM me your complete mailing information —- and I'll drop one in the mail.
N/C.
Best, Fred
Where does that washer go Fred?
Or is that only specific to the 700 model?
Only found one washer when I took apart my 704? That's the one, that goes on top of the rotor. This might explain why there's so much play in my reel, or maybe I'm wrong?
It is a handle spacer washer that allows the crank to turn freely.
Rotor washers are different.
Best, Fred
Quote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 08:38:27 PMQuote from: ExcessiveAngler on October 28, 2023, 08:16:50 PMQuote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 07:49:09 PMQuote from: circlehook on October 28, 2023, 01:19:13 PMI'm trying to track down a handle washer (17-700). No longer available at some of the parts stores. Is there a substitute I could pick up, or something I could search for locally .. at a hardware store ?
If you still need one of these 17-700 SS washers —-
PM me your complete mailing information —- and I'll drop one in the mail.
N/C.
Best, Fred
Where does that washer go Fred?
Or is that only specific to the 700 model?
Only found one washer when I took apart my 704? That's the one, that goes on top of the rotor. This might explain why there's so much play in my reel, or maybe I'm wrong?
It is a handle spacer washer that allows the crank to turn freely.
Rotor washers are different.
Best, Fred
I understand, the rotor washer is different!
I just went and checked the schematic, which I didn't do before! Seems, the 704/Z's do have a handle spacer/washer! Did not know this, I was just asking in my thread about shimming mine!
My shims, are just not thick enough, where I just tried adding them, inside the handle!
This would explain, why there is/was extra play in my handle, and why the reel is sloppy and binds up against the handle housing sometimes!
Always learn something new/good here, just about every day lol!
Quote from: ExcessiveAngler on October 28, 2023, 09:10:25 PMQuote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 08:38:27 PMQuote from: ExcessiveAngler on October 28, 2023, 08:16:50 PMQuote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 07:49:09 PMQuote from: circlehook on October 28, 2023, 01:19:13 PMI'm trying to track down a handle washer (17-700). No longer available at some of the parts stores. Is there a substitute I could pick up, or something I could search for locally .. at a hardware store ?
If you still need one of these 17-700 SS washers —-
PM me your complete mailing information —- and I'll drop one in the mail.
N/C.
Best, Fred
Where does that washer go Fred?
Or is that only specific to the 700 model?
Only found one washer when I took apart my 704? That's the one, that goes on top of the rotor. This might explain why there's so much play in my reel, or maybe I'm wrong?
It is a handle spacer washer that allows the crank to turn freely.
Rotor washers are different.
Best, Fred
I understand, the rotor washer is different!
I just went and checked the schematic, which I didn't do before! Seems, the 704/Z's do have a handle spacer/washer! Did not know this, I was just asking in my thread about shimming mine!
My shims, are just not thick enough, where I just tried adding them, inside the handle!
This would explain, why there is/was extra play in my handle, and why the reel is sloppy and binds up against the handle housing sometimes!
Always learn something new/good here, just about every day lol!
If you need a couple just let me know. Glad to help.
Haven't heard back from CH yet —- so he probably already has what he needs.
I don't want to be in competition with those making a living selling parts who are valued members of our site —- like Mystic, Penn, or others.
However, I am fortunate enough to have lots of parts for Penn, Mitchell, ABU, & DAM Quick —- which have been discontinued many years ago by the manufacturers —- or they are no longer under the same business model.
Best, Fred
One, would be just great! Thank you kindly, sir!
I'm just happy to figure out, that I was missing an important part, that's going to help with some of the gear play!
Was quite disappointed, after I got it all cleaned up, working good and then, have all that extra gear lash!
I had a feeling something was missing, that's why I was asking in my other thread!
I did grab some very thin shims from some other junk, spinning reels out of bags lol!
But they just aren't thick enough!
Their the tensioning shims/washers that are slightly curved to exert light pressure!
One on the way, Sir!
Best, Fred
Quote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 10:27:50 PMOne on the way, Sir!
Best, Fred
Thanks again Fred, just add it to my total lol!
Maybe I will, get to land a beast of a striper on this reel, this season lol!
Quote from: ExcessiveAngler on October 28, 2023, 11:07:32 PMQuote from: foakes on October 28, 2023, 10:27:50 PMOne on the way, Sir!
Best, Fred
Thanks again Fred, just add it to my total lol!
Maybe I will, get to land a beast of a striper on this reel, this season lol!
Nah, N/C.
Best, Fred
PM sent , Fred
Already packed and sealed —-
2 Teflon washers, 1 tune up kit, 1 bearing, I handle spacer.
Will ship tomorrow.
Best, Fred
Most of us penn 700 or 704(z) owners cut the bail wire close to the roller and smooth the end with sandpaper/file. Don't take your wife's emery file. :o This modification will save many lures. ;D One thing is learn how to pick up the line after your cast and tape your index finger.
:-[
Having received Fred's goodies yesterday morning , I installed the new bearing (added a few drops of oil) and handle washer on the 700.. and made sure to re lube / re grease when during re assembly
A bit better but still not as buttery smooth as the 704 .
Interesting fact, I also received a 710 greenie that I had won on "the" auction site on a while back. I cleaned it up and it took performs like the 700 ie. smooth but not whisper quiet / buttery smooth like my 704 .
I checked for main gear / pinion tolerance on all 3 reels by holding the rotor stationary and trying to move the handle back and forth . They're all about the same ( the 700 might even be the best in that regard !)
More curious than anything , what would cause 1 of these reels to operate better than the others ? They're all good but 1 is better .
I uninstalled the cross wind on the 712 as an experiment and it didn't make a.diffrence.
So my naive assumption is that it must be something in the crank / handle shaft or bearing . Do I have to pack these with grease ?
Quote from: circlehook on November 05, 2023, 02:15:58 PMHaving received Fred's goodies yesterday morning .Installed a new bearing (added a few drops of oil) and handle washer on the 700.. and made sure to re lube / re grease when re assemble
A bit better but still not as buttery smooth as the 704 .
Interesting fact, I also received a 710 greenie that I had won on "the" auction site on a while back. I cleaned it up and it took performs like the 700 ie. smooth but not whisper quiet / buttery smooth like my 704 .
I checked for main gear / pinion tolerance on all 3 reels by holding the rotor stationary and trying to move the handle back and forth . They're all about the same ( the 700 might even be the best in that regard !)
More curious than anything , what would cause 1 of these reels to operate better than the others ? They're all good but 1 is better .
I uninstalled the cross wind on the 712 as an experiment and it didn't make a.diffrence.
So my naive assumption is that it must be something in the crank / handle shaft or bearing . Do I have to pack these with grease ?
Well, after I completely cleaned and regreased my 704! It felt different and now was super tight, could barely crank it in the cold weather!
So I opened it back up, took all the grease out that I could, and cut/mixed it, with penn precision reel oil! Completely smoothed things right out and back to feeling great again!
Quote from: circlehook on November 05, 2023, 02:15:58 PMHaving received Fred's goodies yesterday morning .Installed a new bearing (added a few drops of oil) and handle washer on the 700.. and made sure to re lube / re grease when re assemble
A bit better but still not as buttery smooth as the 704 .
Interesting fact, I also received a 710 greenie that I had won on "the" auction site on a while back. I cleaned it up and it took performs like the 700 ie. smooth but not whisper quiet / buttery smooth like my 704 .
I checked for main gear / pinion tolerance on all 3 reels by holding the rotor stationary and trying to move the handle back and forth . They're all about the same ( the 700 might even be the best in that regard !)
More curious than anything , what would cause 1 of these reels to operate better than the others ? They're all good but 1 is better .
I uninstalled the cross wind on the 712 as an experiment and it didn't make a.diffrence.
So my naive assumption is that it must be something in the crank / handle shaft or bearing . Do I have to pack these with grease ?
Without it on my bench —- it is just 20 questions without a lot of accurate solutions.
Any place there is friction is a possibility.
My method on all spinners involves a full and complete disassemble —- ultrasonic cleaning of all parts —- inspection for any wear spots —- replacement of any questionable parts with new —- burnishing and polishing of all parts inside and outside —- reassembly —- test —- adjust and fine tune —- check all functions to operate as new.
Yes, providing you have cleaned it fully —- it could be the crank axle. The remedy would commonly be to burnish the axle with a fine wire wheel —- rinse, dry, and lubricate with synthetic oil.
Another common issue is the oilite brass bushing either need burnishing on the INSIDES with "0000" steel wool at high speed —- or to replace the bushing also. This is common when spinners have been used hard and not lubricated on a regular basis. Particularly salt spinners. But even a brand new bushing will need burnishing because of a built up "storage tarnish" —- then some oil.
The reel should be smooth and freely operational.
Best, Fred
Fred
I think you're right. The insides of some of the bushings might benefit from polishing / burnishing. I'll work on that when I get the itch to tinker .
Thanks for everything