While I'm definitely not the first to undertake a modification project on the 710z, I'd like to document the project , and any questions, choices, observations, errors etc I make . There are a ton of descriptions on the web but many of the images have been lost .
I was initially intending to modify my 710 greenie but couldn't bring myself to alter it so I picked up a battered and neglected 710z for this purpose . I've decided to name this reel the "black sheep", even if it ends up another color .
First off, it looks like the oiler nipple on the torpedo handle knob has never seen a drop of oil on its life. I soaked it in vinegar overnight and picked away at any crud. The nipple is still frozen so I've sprayed it with WD-40 for the time being as I'm out of penetrating oil. I will evaluate this periodically.
The roller was frozen onto the bail.
WD40 didn't loosen anything . One of these days, I need to make up some custom penetrating oil for soaking purposes (ATF + acetone as a carrier). Only for metal parts though as acetone can be aggressive on some plastics.
I tried pulling with some heavy monofilament tied around the waist of the roller but that didn't work.
Neither did a moderate application of heat.
I tried wedging a thin utility knife between the roller and the bail arm to create some leverage. No luck.
Finally , I wrapped half a dozen turns of electrical tape and twisted it out with a pair of vice grips . As feared, I have a few superficial marks on the edge of the roller and I've mostly buffed those out since using some fine emery paper . Upon removal, I observed that everything was completely gunked up so I cleaned up that mess too
I need to investigate why the bail trip doesn't fully slot into the bail arm - maybe corrosion / dirt or maybe something is tweaked). I plan to do this while / after servicing the reel.
Question:
I intend to refinish this reel a different color. Do I need to strip it down to bare metal or should I just sand it down smooth and go from there .
I know the greenies were easier to strip but not sure of the black spinfishers .
Is aircraft paint remover still the only choice , or can I use regular citristrip or kleenstrip found at the hardware store ?
Oftentimes, when a line guide is frozen with corrosion to the bail —- I just break it apart and install a new one.
On the paint —- just depends how you want it to look after you complete the job.
Sanding and painting over the old paint is a quick and good way to go —- and the results are more than acceptable.
Glass bead blasting also works to strip it down to metal.
And a shell casing tumbler also works.
Or a quick trip to the powder-coating shop with a case of beer & $20. They will dip the parts in their vat —- and there will be no more paint in about 5 minutes.
Best, Fred
Thanks . I'll try a light sanding and reevaluate from there. While the reel is pretty battered , the paint is mostly still intact ( hardly down to bare metal except in a couple of spots).
The plan is to redo the paint with some Alumahyde II . Ideally, I'd like to finish this reel in bare metal but don't want to deal with the continuous upkeep.
Might go for a grey metallic + gold handle / spool look like this Shimano .
Citristrip works wonders on the paint they used on these. Sand a bit, coat with citri and come back in an hour.
You could also polish it instead of painting. That's very satisfying when youre finished.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 14, 2023, 06:04:38 PMCitristrip works wonders on the paint they used on these. Sand a bit, coat with citri and come back in an hour.
You could also polish it instead of painting. That's very satisfying when youre finished.
Thanks. Bare metal would be ideal but I worry about upkeep and aluminium corrossion. Any solutions , apart from constant wax?
Quote from: circlehook on November 14, 2023, 06:37:33 PMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 14, 2023, 06:04:38 PMCitristrip works wonders on the paint they used on these. Sand a bit, coat with citri and come back in an hour.
You could also polish it instead of painting. That's very satisfying when youre finished.
Thanks. Bare metal would be ideal but I worry about upkeep and aluminium corrossion. Any solutions , apart from constant wax?
I've done 2 of these. Corrosion has been minor, even using it wading, but I'm good about rinsing after. I coated with rem oil after finishing the polish job because I had some on hand. I bought protectaclear and was gonna use it but never did because it seems just fine.
CH,
I got a spare rotor for my 712z at Mystic fer $30 new with new decals installed.I have painted a few reels,liquid mask works good on the hard to tape areas. I usually completely disassemble them.I had a Mitchell 300 powder coated gold at a local offroad store. It was his 1st reel,he only charged $20 it came out ok,nothing like the gold sample. Chrome or Black would have been easier and looked better.He didn't plug some of the screw holes,and I had get some metric taps to clean out the holes.
Thanks for the suggestions .
I cleaned out the reel and repeated with a spare 712 main + pinion gears that I purchased separately . Everything seems to work with an increased retrieve . I guestimate 4 turns of the rotor for every 1 crank of the handle vs 3.5 for the stock gears.
Next , I'll break down the reel completely in preparation for mods
These reels are simple but tough is why I like them.
I broke the reel down and after a cursory degrease using simple-green, decided to soak the housing and rotor in a 50/50 water/ vinegar solution . Not sure if this will help get rid of any superficial corrosion before I start stripping but we'll see. If this is taboo, please let me know :)
Vinegar can be pretty rough on brass and bronze components. I have seen numerous cracks in brass gearing, etc., caused by vinegar soaks so it's best to be tentative with vinegar around brass.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on November 16, 2023, 11:47:33 PMVinegar can be pretty rough on brass and bronze components. I have seen numerous cracks in brass gearing, etc., caused by vinegar soaks so it's best to be tentative with vinegar around brass.
Yeah. I only soaked the housing and rotor. Not the gears.
In any case, after an hour, I rinsed the parts off and went to town with an old tooth brush . I got rid of a lot of the superficial rust on the trip lever and bail arm . I'd like to eventually replace them if this project turns out well but these should do for now, once I dry and coat them with a bit of WD40
Parts of the housing look pretty rough.
If I scuff this down, I feel I'm bound to miss parts of the compromised paint so I'd rather proceed directly to the paint stripping stage.
I guess we'll see how Walmarts finest (or rather their only ) paint remover works. It was the cheapest I could find , and worst case it doesn't work and we all learn something . I guess I could try and find someone to dip & strip these parts but I wanted to see how far I could get on my own using off the shelf products
I guess we'll know in a few minutes
How would I best approach the removal of the 704z emblem from the housing cover. It's kind of beat up , and not in a good way . Would a hair dryer help soften up whatever adhesive was used ? Or should I scour the auction site for a cover (perhaps from a greenie with the metallic emblem intact)
Heat should soften the glue enough to pry it out.
Circlehook - We are all on this journey together; thanks for sharing. I am going to take a moment to "state the obvious" so if you are already on top of this I apologize - but if it helps someone else it may be beneficial. Once you are done with the stripping stage (I hope the local stripper worked for you, looking forward to a report) it is imperative, no, really important :D to absolutely clean, rinse, neutralize, lather, rinse, repeat and clean again getting ALL traces of the stripper removed from the components. And sometimes with all those nooks and crannys it is easier said than done. part of what makes those chemicals work is that they are very tenacious and like to "stick" to what they are applied to, so removing them is most likely not just going to be a simple rinse, it will take some work and some neutralizing chemical rinse. That will insure that your future coatings get full and good adhesion for maximum longevity (and no bubbles!). It is surprising how miniscule residue can remains that can barely be seen but will come back to ruin the paint, and without high tech cleaning (ultrasonic) it can be easy to miss small spots.
I let the 2 minute stripper work for an hour this morning . It loosened up some of the paint enough that I could scrape it off with a teaspoon and a putty scraper. I've reapplied and will repeat the process . After that, I'll work with sandpaper and / or a rotary tool + wire wheel
I tend to use the sandpaper while the stripper is still present. (With gloves, and i use citristrip)
I hope it ends up turning out really well because it sure seems to be more work than it might end up being worth. ::)
Quote from: Midway Tommy on November 17, 2023, 05:27:22 PMI hope it ends up turning out really well because it sure seems to be more work than it might end up being worth. ::)
I'm just gonna try and get some enjoyment out of the process , for better or worse .
Initial stripping done. Wet sanded a bit with 220 grit lubricated by some stripper .
I guess if I were going for a distressed look, I could stop here :)
Sanded & scrubbed a bit more using thumb grease and a small rotary tool . I got the pieces looking semi decent but the aluminium surface isn't perfect (pores and other imperfections ).
I could commit to more work to prep this for either a brushed or polished finished but either approach is still going to result in a "grungy" aesthetic unless I put in some real effort into the finish work.
I'm going to research VHT wheel paints and engine epoxies
Looks like you need to do more sanding with finer sand paper, maybe 320-600, those scratches look pretty deep. Then you should probably give it a couple of coats of filler primer with sanding in between and a fine sand afterwards prior to your first finish coat.
They're not too bad, the pics make them look worse than they are .
Reel manufacturers only paint reels for (2) reasons —-
To look more attractive and sell more reels.
And, to hide imperfections in the castings.
While shiny, chromey, bling reels may look sharp on a shelf —- without a tremendous amount of labor, expense, and ongoing maintenance —- they are seldom practical.
Been there, done that, got the shirt...
Best, Fred
The surface quality of those old cast aluminum Penns was not that great. You can see the artifacts from the mold, and those pits are sub-surface voids that get exposed from corrosion and/or prepping. I think that was probably one of the reasons that Penn used such a thick coat of paint. Tommy's advice about primer is good if you are going to go the rattle can route.
If you are going to do any baking of the paint to finish it, you will need to out-gas the parts first. The porous cast aluminum absorbs oils though the years, and it will come out back to the surface when heated. The trick is to bake the reel around 275F or so for a half hour, clean and repeat, until the oil leaching stops. Might need to relube the oilite handle bushing after painting is completed.
Powder coating works real well on these reels. I did a couple threads on powder coating old Penns when I first joined. You can see a spinner with a hot-roll /charcoal finish in the first thread, and a more gaudy candy finish Senator in the second. I was (am) still learning, but think that the info is still useful.
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,9257.msg83482.html#msg83482 (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,9257.msg83482.html#msg83482)
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,9622.msg88315.html#msg88315 (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,9622.msg88315.html#msg88315)
-J
What would be the consequences, if any, if I decided to do nothing more apart from maybe periodically apply some marine sealant or ceramic or similar snake oil product - ie let the reel wear it's battle scars and patina ?
Would the housing and rotor corrode if occasionally exposed to salt spray ( I don't abuse my gear but don't baby them either)?
It won't corrode —- it will just dull and oxidize if left as is.
You might find a protectant that works.
There are a few hundred out there.
Best, Fred
Work kept me busy for the past few weeks but last night I decided to get back to this project .
For what it's worth, I picked up a cheap battered 710 housing off the auction site and decided to use it instead of the 710z housing (mostly because I dig the metal cover + brass spinfisher emblem ). Also, the covers were slightly different in dimensions and not cross compatable between the 710 / 710z chassis.
Slowly getting there .. most of the effort was to sand out imperfections / putting in the casting and the associated paint or debris buried in them .
Tried a bunch of tools from my garage but these are what worked for me.
1. Micro sanding block with an assortment of sandpaper for first pass sanding
2. Battery powered Dremel type tool with wire wheel to get into the crevices (this actually burnishes to a shine)
3. 1000 / 2000 wet dry sandpaper with a micro sanding paper
a. lubricated with water / dish washing soap
b. second pass lubricated with a slurry of water and some random turtle wax polishing (not wax) compound . This actually worked better than (a) at removing fine defects
Still some ways to go but most of the grunt work is done.
They look better in "reel life" than the pic.
After 0000 steel wool and some mag wheel polish. As before, pics don't do this justice and seem to highlight almost invisible( to me, at least) flaws.
I think I'm done with the polishing work . I could go for a mirror finish but I prefer a duller finish . It will look better with the eventual dings and scratches .
Now to consider if I want to drill the rotor or not
Ask yourself two questions:
can you get your drilled holes spaced absolutely perfectly evenly?
AND
Would it bother you if the holes are not perfectly spaced?
The answer to those will help you decide whether or not to drill. I wouldnt personally do it, because i know I couldn't get them perfectly spaced, and it would definitely bother me. But that's just me.
Great work so far.
I will totally endorse Jason's suggestions. And now will give you my unsolicited thoughts. Which should NEVER guide you in your direction - hey Man, you be you.
Those machined/slotted reels look VERY COOL. Not gonna say otherwise, and I know the level of work involved when you go down that road. Lot of work - beautiful results.
BUT - I am old enough to remember when "skirted spool" spinners first came out, and they came out for a couple of reasons:
A - They also looked different and cool at that time.
B - They helped alleviate line suck under the spool.
I have seen so many great works by folks on this forum and elsewhere, but a part of me keeps wanting to say that the skirted spool spinner evolved to help keep Line and "stuff" out from behind the spool. So now if I do a bunch of really cool metalwork on the rotor of a standard reel - well, those are all slots for dust, dirt, etc to get in behind the spool and eventually down into the works.
Listen, polishing old reels is cool, and a lot of work. But once you get into "skeletonizing" old reels, that is also cool, and also a LOT of work. BUT - you are now exacerbating the conditions (line, dust, etc) getting under the spool and into the works that the original skirted spools were developed to avoid....Depending on how you are going to use your reels this may not be a problem - again, you know you - but I must say I am totally looking forward to seeing your finished piece!!! - john
Kind of agree with Jason and John.
I have heard claims that porting these type of rotors allows for ease of turning and/or improved water drainage, but I don't buy it. I think most folk that do this to make the reels look modern (which is fine), and are reaching for a functional reason to justify it.
First of all, if you are removing significant amounts of metal, everything has to be matched so that the rotor is still balanced as it turns. Next, there should already be a counterweight of some kind semi-permanently attached to the rotor. It is probably not going to be the right size after porting.
If you don't port the rotor so much as to compromise the durability, you will not be lightening it enough to affect performance.
There is also some advantage for greater rotor weight, as the momentum keeps the rotor turning consistently, sort of powering through the change of oscillation direction. This could make the turning feel less herky-jerky. Same reason that they put fly wheels on piston engines.
The old style rotors keep larger debris from getting trapped inside a turning mechanism, but the spool gap still readily allows water and finer debris to pass in both directions (for better and worse).
I wouldn't do it, but then I wouldn't do all the work to have a polished finish.
Kind of up to whoever is doing the customization.
-J
Points well received . Now that I think about it, the beaches here in Texas can be very windy with a lot of dusty blowing around and drilling a rotor might be asking for trouble .
Might be time to start ordering misc parts ( bail springs etc ) and then start putting this back together .
On a side note, I also have the stripped 704z and it's (unfortunately, now mismatched) black cover plate. I'll think up an alternate finishing scheme for that .. which will probably involve paint .
You can do plan B and get another spare rotor to cut up . There is several pages of pictures and "How to make jigs for machining slots or holes .
https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/topic/846891-penn-staal-templates-710z-and-704/#comments
https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/search/?q=drilled%20or%20slotted%20rotors%20&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=52
See if this works it`s a search page to work with .
I love what you have done this far. I'm just here to see and learn, and just to be amazed. Cool stuff!!!
I'm waiting on an eccentric liner before I put this back together . I suspect I'll have to replace some of the bail / trip) hardware (it felt pretty weak and gritty even after the initial cleaning) but I'll have to re-evaluate now that I've taken the reel completely apart and degreased everything . Might have to polish off any rust spots . If I need to replace bail related hardware, I'll consider bail-less options .
I'm thinking of dressing up the rotor cup recesses ( the line capacity stickers were all scratched up from age but I saved them to use as templates) with some holographic lure tape or even matte gold vinyl.
I have some old but fresh Z spool stickers. I'll see if a 710 is among them.
I put the reel together (with 712 gearing / pinion) . The one big change is I decided to try bail-less by sacrificing a new-style 712 bail (24-712). I cut off the bail wire as close as I could to the roller guide assembly with a Dremel and finished off with a bit of light grinding / sanding . To counter-balance, I used a nother pen nut (33a-722) although on further research, I think I should have used part 23-116 from a senator (or possibly 23-114 without the oiler port that is unnecessary here .. have not verified)
References: https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/topic/263338-penn-710-made-into-bailess/#comments
https://youtu.be/9LOXpQuiFlo (I left the bail trip / bearing retainer cover plate in, not sure why this guy removed it. It doesn't hurt and makes it easier to go back to bailed mode if needed).
Spooled with 15 lb mono. - trilene big game with 30 lb shock leader . Line lay seemed ok (as "ok" as possible for a vintage spinfisher , that is) with more or less even lay and not conical like my 704.
For what it's worth, this toor feels more balanced (less wobble) when cranking (though not perfect) than a stock 710. When mounted on a rod, the wobble is insignificant.
Will test when the weather outside is better .
Some more bling to come when I figure out what do about the line capacity stickers recess. I tried sticking some holographic tape but it looked horrible. I might try some black or gold vinyl sheet in there. Might polish up this reel again after that.
In hindsight, I'm kind of glad I didn't drill the rotor cup. I might do that sometime to a greenie rotor if I find one cheap on the auction site.
Gold pin stripe tape . Maybe hole punch the tape some , try the positive and the negative !
Quote from: circlehook on January 09, 2024, 04:38:29 PMSome more bling to come when I figure out what do about the line capacity stickers recess. I tried sticking some holographic tape but it looked horrible. I might try some black or gold vinyl sheet in there. Might polish up this reel again after that.
Reel looks great!
As for trim "bling" to replace line capacity label on sideplates or rotors —- automotive pin-striping tape is what I use.
Easy, inexpensive, dozens of colors, cut to fit, stays in place, does not fade.
Since it is good for vehicles in the rain, snow, sun, dust, and mud —- I figured it would work on reels.
Looks better than the original "factory line capacity adhesive stickers" —- that nobody ever looks at anyway.
Best, Fred
Great info, thanks