I've been itching to build a better ultralight baitcast rod. I wanted something to throw small (1/8oz-ish) lures.
This started as a $35 factory rod. 5' long 2-6# line 1/32-1/4oz lure rating. It seems about as fast taper as a rod this light can get. I strongly suspect these started life as factory seconds of a much fancier blank.
I used 1 Fuji LC12M 1 LYAG8SL 1 LAG7 1 LAG6 and 3 LAG5
Dark gray size A wraps. Nothing decorative. That may change but I'm going for performance.
No butt cap yet. Working on deciding if i want a more normal cap or another champagne cork.
Jason, IMO a 12LC doesnt look good on a UL rod, it surely add unneeded weight to a pretty light blank.
if you want to keep the line from touching the blank there are other than might work better on your rod, BTW, I have just few of discontinued Fuji Alconite BNMVAG high Stand guides the main use for them was as striper guide (only were made in 3 sizes) that guide will work better with that blank, these guides are pretty light the wire is pretty thin.
I dont recall where I got them but they are not available anymore.
I will check how many I have and which sizes (I just bought 4-6 guides), I think I got two different sizes,
I'll send you few
in the picture they look like the LC guide with higher frame but the wire is pretty thin, its like a fuji LN guide with super high frame
Those are interesting. It annoys me that fuji really doesn't have much for a light tall option.
It casts pretty well. I was throwing a sub. 0.25oz lure a good 60' or more and I definitely see room for technique improvement.
Did you have a specific guide sizing & spacing "plan" in mind?
Frank
Quote from: happyhooker on February 08, 2024, 12:51:13 AMDid you have a specific guide sizing & spacing "plan" in mind?
Frank
God I changed my guide layout about 78 times during this process. Including removing some already wrapped guides as I changed my mind mid build. But I'm glad because I really did explore a lot of options before settling here.
checking them again I see their wire is not that "thin" as I recalled but I will send them out to you anyway, pretty sure you will know what to do with them ;D
they dont look to be saltwater worthy guides, read somewhere the big market for them was on the feeder rods in UK
Quote from: steelfish on February 08, 2024, 06:04:19 PMchecking them again I see their wire is not that "thin" as I recalled but I will send them out to you anyway, pretty sure you will know what to do with them ;D
they dont look to be saltwater worthy guides, read somewhere the big market for them was on the feeder rods in UK
Those are cool looking. I feel like they got released before their time. I'd absolutely use that on a light surf rod.
I asked about your proposed guide selection/pattern, because the stripper guides depicted look so much taller than I am use to seeing. Yes, the old time casting rods kept the guides close to the blank, but even the newer setups have only raised the butt guide a little. For example, looking at Mudhole's CRB guide kits, I didn't see anything with a stripper guide quite so tall as seen above. Just curious, and I realize there are many ways to "skin a cat".
Frank
Quote from: happyhooker on February 08, 2024, 07:39:54 PMI asked about your proposed guide selection/pattern, because the stripper guides depicted look so much taller than I am use to seeing. Yes, the old time casting rods kept the guides close to the blank, but even the newer setups have only raised the butt guide a little. For example, looking at Mudhole's CRB guide kits, I didn't see anything with a stripper guide quite so tall as seen above. Just curious, and I realize there are many ways to "skin a cat".
Frank
Admittedly I don't think many others are doing it this way. Doesn't mean I'm right. But also doesn't mean I'm wrong.
This is just my opinion I have no empirical data to back me up.
I think baitcasters benefit from a reduction train though it need not be nearly as dramatic as the ones we use for spinners. This is my first time playing with a tall stripper. But if you look from the reel seat you'll see the first 4 guides are in a line similar to the cone of flight used on fancy spinners using pre-Kseries fuji guides.
Yeah itll still cast ok with a size 7 stripper close to the blank. Especially with a decently heavy lure. And a car built for drag racing doesn't need a turbo to eventually get across the finish line. But getting across the finish line eventually isnt the goal of a drag racer, any more than "still able to cast" is the goal of the rod builder. Both are going for optimization.
If I'm putting in the effort to build a rod for casting, it needs to cast very well. If I'm building it to cast really light lures, then I need to optimize for casting. Merely good enough isnt good enough.
I have nothing negative to say about mudhole. I'm a frequent customer. But their "kits" aren't aimed at the wallet of an experienced rod builder. They are targeting the new rod builder who is used to looking at factory rods. And we all know that factory rods are built with the knowledge that a rod tuned for outstanding performance on the shelf next to a rod that "looks fancy" will stay on the shelf while the fancy looking rod goes home to disappoint the new owner. And really small guides definitely make a baitcaster look fancy.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 08, 2024, 09:10:06 PMThose are cool looking. I feel like they got released before their time. I'd absolutely use that on a light surf rod.
my plan was to use them as well on a long and light salmon rod 3/4oz max lure, change the current 1st two guides for these ones and use the rod for dual purpose and equally being used with an spinning reel or casting reel, but my lack/small time for fishing I try to spend it fishing from a Panga boat not much on the surf :-\
Some thoughts from a guy who has thought a bit about BFS rods, but hasn't built one- so FWIIW:
Regarding a tall first guide - I am also not so sure. Tall first guides make the most sense on spinners or some spiral wrapped conventionals (albeit for different reasons),
1. The line is not pulled off in coils like on a spinner, just a very slight amount of wave as the line unwinds as it is pulled off the spool. Nothing at all like a spinner with its decreasing "cone" of coils that gets wrestled into large waves, and then small waves.
2. The top of the spool is not far away from the blank, like on a spinner.
3. Your first guide is actually the levelwind.
4. The line path that matters is after the line is released and the tip has finished oscillating. Ideally, the line does not touch the top or bottom of the levelwind (including any waves)- this should be the most important. From there it should travel through to the tip without having to change direction. Considering the minimal loading performance requirements for this type of rod, you probably have some latitude in first guide placement.
---------------------------
Some other unrelated thoughts:
5. The reel seat should be light and in proportion to the reel, and the reel seat should be relatively close to the butt. You don't need the extra handle length for fighting or casting, and you need less counterweight for casting.
6. A BFS guy could tell you, but I suspect that you want a blank that flexes all the way to the reel. I wouldn't be surprised if you have to cut a bit off the butt of a standard blank to get more of a BFS style action.
7. Finally, these rods are intended to fish in tight quarters, so you don't want the rod any longer than necessary, and you want the guides small and close to the blank (as long as it does not negatively impact performance). The first time I went bushwhacking with a fly rod, I noticed how much less the small guides would catch in the brush compared to a spinner. This part may not matter as much if you re not using the rod for stream fishing.
8. I think that looking at the fancier Japanese BFS rods there will be something to glean. These are very performance sensitive at lighter lure weights, so I doubt that they will do something sub-optimal to sell the rods. They just make them extra purdy so they can still charge too much.
Your experiments are always interesting. Looking forward to the results!
-J
Interesting points as always. The tall guide is definitely an experiment. I can't really speak in its defense with any authority til I use it a bit more and make up my mind.
Regarding length of the butt, I dont disagree with anything you say. I likely won't ever throw a 2 hand cast on this. But i likely will put it in the rod holder of my kayak to fish inshore saltwater. I doubt that will be the primary use but it will definitely also be used for that. And those extra few inches take it out of the guaranteed splash zone. That's a big deal.
And agreed about foliage. Thats why i was so excited about a short rod like this. A 5' rod is 10x easier to walk thru the woods with than a 7' rod.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 09, 2024, 04:23:04 AMA 5' rod is 10x easier to walk thru the woods with than a 7' rod.
We always walk with the tip in front of us- it is sort of the default position, like we are about to make a cast. But if you hold the rod backwards it is easier to walk through brush with the tip behind you, and if you slip and fall, you re much less likely to break the rod. Learned this while bushwhacking with a 9 foot fly rod from a steelhead guide who didn't want me breaking his fancy gear :)
A short rod is a blessing if you are trying to take a shot in one of those brushy streams with a tree branch over your head.
-J
Just curious what reel are you matching to this rod,the Abu 4600?
Kastking has one now at a whopping 4.4oz fer $200 though...too much IMO.I rather have an Abu 1500 but they are crazy $$$ big money
KastKing Kestrel Elite Baitcasting Fishing Reel, Magnesium Frame BFS Finesse Baitcaster Fishing Reel, Lightest on Market at only 4.4 Ounces, Easily Cast Lures Down to 1/16 oz, 11+1 Double Shielded BB, 8.4:1 High Speed Gear Ratio https://a.co/d/cS559aU
I have never built a rod,but it seems to me if the 1st guide was higher than the levelwind you might get some backlash?
I currently have it paired with an abu black max with an aftermarket BFS spool, it'll probably stay with that til I can talk someone sitting on a pile of 2500C into a trade.
If it were cheaper that would be the kastking reel that rises to the level of enough interest to gamble on one. But for $200 I dunno.
The first guide isn't higher than the levelwind. Its about the same height.
I have almost bought one of these several times and never bit the bullet.Kinda slow, but looks
Fun !
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/bass-pro-shops-crappie-maxx-tightline-special-crappie-reel-100015551-1
Ok. I want one now. With a bit of tuning that probably doesnt suck at all. All Brass gears too (according to them). The worst thing about it is the name and the ultra slow retrieve. But the sideplates are aluminum so I could just mirror polish it.
Dang it now I need one.
Jason, I honor you for being willing to try something a bit new. Most people who know me would say I am old-fashioned and a traditionalist, and they would probably be right. But, I ain't afraid of change, if it is well founded. I hate change just for its own sake. The only way well founded change happens if somebody is willing to experiment a little. Keep on truckin' & doin' what you feel might lead to something good, and don't deny yourself the pleasure of avoiding the feeling that you missed the chance to do something positive.
Frank
Those high frame guides were meant for spinners. I built several ultralite and lite rods with those guides and with the proper selection could cast almost 50 yards. I used double footed for the first guide then single footed for the remainder. Line only touched the tip coming off of the reel when suspending the lightest weight to keep the line straight with minimal deflection of the rod. Lots of trial with guide height and sizes along with guide placement that I could spend a whole day just doing guide selection and placement. I would only do this for my rods as customers would never pay for such service especially for a lite or ultralite rod. They got the good enough versions.
If you're conscious of the total weight and swing weight then I'd use these very light weight guides:
https://www.jannsnetcraft.com/280542
On a short rod you may feel the stiffening from double-foot guides.
I'd pick the smallest Ming Yang conventional over the Bass Pro crappie reel for ten bucks more.
https://www.amazon.com/Ming-Yang-Fishing-Baitcast-Walleye/dp/B00PNYEY3W/ref=sr_1_2?adgrpid=1330409633924528&hvadid=83150841261990&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=113333&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83150945952743%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=9684_13530748&keywords=ming+yang+fishing+reel&qid=1707545414&sr=8-2
The spool doesn't weigh much and you can always drill the flanges. The levelwind can be removed. There is room under the hood for magnets. Pictures here:
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30207.15
Steve,I remember that Ming Yang post now,it looks to be of higher quality,some of the BPS crappie reel's reviews state line gets under the spool? I never heard of that on a baitcaster,but wouldn't wanna find out while I had a fish on.I can't hear most bait clickers anyhow and you are casting lures mostly you don't need one.I would get the smallest Ming Yang and I think I will too.
I found the CL25 with the levelwind(140g or 5oz)on Temu,with free shipping,cheaper than Amazon if you can wait.
https://www.temu.com/goods.html?_bg_fs=1&goods_id=601099512288649&parent_order_sn=PO-211-20474363086711114&add_order=1&_x_sessn_id=xtt5gselsa&refer_page_name=bgt_order_detail&refer_page_id=10045_1707586503008_oo0u9ezqet&refer_page_sn=10045
Quote from: jgp12000 on February 10, 2024, 05:42:58 PMI found the CL25 with the levelwind(140g or 5oz)on Temu,with free shipping,cheaper than Amazon if you can wait.
https://www.temu.com/goods.html?_bg_fs=1&goods_id=601099512288649&parent_order_sn=PO-211-20474363086711114&add_order=1&_x_sessn_id=xtt5gselsa&refer_page_name=bgt_order_detail&refer_page_id=10045_1707586503008_oo0u9ezqet&refer_page_sn=10045
Not to interrupt Jason's thread!
Buuut, have you ever purchased anything from Temu?
I heard that it's a Bait and switch site.
Sometimes you get the item in the picture and other times you don't. Was looking at Rod guides/blanks there.
This is the 2nd time, 1st was a free gift with my 1st order which was something under $10.I wouldn't spend much there until I see their service that's for sure.I will update when I receive the reel.
It's a slow boat from china.
I have used them but not often. Their ads are a pain. Shipping was actually quite fast in my case. If I remember right, I paid with PayPal as a bit of added insurance. Satisfied as to quality of what I got.
Frank
Quote from: jgp12000 on February 10, 2024, 11:28:40 AMSteve,I remember that Ming Yang post now,it looks to be of higher quality,some of the BPS crappie reel's reviews state line gets under the spool? I never heard of that on a baitcaster,but wouldn't wanna find out while I had a fish on.I can't hear most bait clickers anyhow and you are casting lures mostly you don't need one.I would get the smallest Ming Yang and I think I will too.
Most primative baitcasters can get light spectra line caught behind the spool. It is just the tolerances they could achieve and they were designed around monofilament.
It's been years since it has happened to me. That's not because the reels are any better but because I have adapted to it and avoid loose wraps and backlash at all costs.
It works! Throwing a free line shrimp into the breeze worked better than it has on any baitcaster combo I've tried thus far.
Definitely the biggest fish this reel has fought so far. Not sure if the same fish came back 5 minutes later or if I caught 2 similar looking redfish back to back. But in order to avoid any further confusion I brought him home the second time.
Tons of fun and super sporty both times.
Looks like a perfectly matched combo,reds fight good bet it was a battle on that BFS.I have caught redfish flat fishing years ago never seen a 2 dot.I just read some have 3?
Quote from: jgp12000 on February 23, 2024, 07:16:56 AMLooks like a perfectly matched combo,reds fight good bet it was a battle on that BFS.I have caught redfish flat fishing years ago never seen a 2 dot.I just read some have 3?
apparently they start out with a few and lose them as they age. I've seen 3 I've also seen zero.
And I've seen pictures of a subspecies that's covered in them. But I can't find it now.
The Ming Yang CL25 came yesterday.I mounted it on a 5' Fin commander rod IM6.10lb Yozuri super braid with a 1/8 oz jig I can only get it out about 10 yards?I have some 6lb Kastking braid I may try? The combo feels good for being what it is a $20 reel(5oz).I haven't caught anything with it yet.I was hoping to be able to cast it farther, maybe the line, or cheap hardware dunno,or me.
Is it a synchronized level wind, and if so did you give it a good polish job? If not 10 yds isn't bad out of the box. I bet after a tune it'll do better.
I'm surprised you can get 30 feet. Try removing the levelwind and filling the spool.
But, you can't expect too much from that rod. Try to find something longer and a rod rated for 1/8 oz lure. A 4 wt fly rod would work too; and you can probably find a used one for cheap.
Yep I know the rod length has to be a factor,I have to sling it windmill style to get that distance.Certainly not for dock shooting or going under a limb,it may be good for trolling or live bait bottom fishing but fun nonetheless because it's so light.Yep Steve,once again not enough line I had a little of the yo zuri left I figured practice with it then try the 6lb braid.I imagine a 1lb
Crappie will feel like Jaws 4 on this rig.
I may try swapping the LC for a more traditional guide and see if it makes a difference. If anything it's the weight of that guide making me consider second guessing myself again.
I turn 61 next week,been fishing as long as I can remember 50+years,but still I learn something everyday.When Steve mentioned a wt 4 fly rod I took the bait & googled it.I have never heard of a Tenkara rod until today. In layman/redneck terms, it's a bream buster with a cork handle. Like Patina=Rust.It gave me an idea take a bream buster with some wet flies next time I find a bream bed :fish
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,38128.0.html
I have noticed I'm getting a lot more backlashes on this rod than I can explain thru poor technique. There may be something about my nonstandard layout that's driving this effect.
So I went ahead and swapped the first 2 guides, starting with an MN size 12. I'll go throw a few casts today and see if there's any improvement.
So far this rod has only caught redfish. This one is #4 (and at 23" was one heck of a fight)
looks a really good fish for that light rod.
Oh it was a good 3-5 min long fight and at a few points I was certain I wasn't gonna win. So needless to say it was exhilarating to bring him in.
So I never updated re: casting. Granted these shrimp are closer to the upper end of this rod's lure weight range, I did notice improved casting from moving to the MN guides. Really no difference in distance but less overruns.
This is the after pic. My wife didn't wanna eat blackened redfish twice in one week so I made gumbo instead. Redfish gumbo is the BEST gumbo. Very meaty fish. I swore it smelled like crab meat. Maybe that tells me a bit about his diet.
I can taste it !!!