I've been playing a lot with the old Penn spinfishers this year and I've learned a lot. I've learned some things that I have not seen mentioned so hopefully this helps somebody.
I currently own a small handful of reels, a 722, 722z, 712, 712z, 710, and 710z. No I did not intentionally get one green and one z of each, it just worked out that way. I'm sure anyone looking has noticed, but the 716 and 714, people are asking beyond ridiculous prices. I love these reels, but for $200 you can buy a better reel. The 420ss and 430ss are not any cheaper either. I don't have much of an opinion on the 706. As of now, you can still get a good 722, 712, 710, and 704 for under $50. I don't know that I've paid over $40 for any of mine, but there is also shipping cost. They might not be quite as bullet proof, but I feel like most people would be plenty happy with a 722 instead of a 714 or 420ss. Alternatively I would suggest you try the 710, it's bigger, but you might just find you like it. I've never tried a 720, but its the exact same as the 722, but with a 4:1 gear ratio. the 722 has a 5:1 ratio. There's also left hand versions like the 711, which if you are left handed might save some money.
When it comes to line you often hear about how only mono is ok, except Fireline for some reason is ok even though its a fused braid. I don't know about all that, but I have different braids on every one of mine and there's nothing wrong. I have Powerpro 10# on my 722. I don't remember what is on my 722z, but its a braid. My 712 has 20# power pro. My 710 has 30# Spiderwire Durabraid. My 710z has 50# Berkley X9. They lay line in a slight figure 8, but it's not bad. Most pictures online make it looks worse than it is, but still, I can't figure out what problem it causes because I haven't found any. It's not really a spinfisher, but I also have a Penn 550SS which has similar internals, and it is spooled with I think 40# power pro, it too works just fine. These reels work good with mono too of course. These spinfishers still cast farther and have less issues with braid than with monofilament. In my opinion, unless you have a reason to want to use monofilament as a main line, these reels work better with braid.
That might sound like a rant, but it sets up my first tuning tip. This one is no secret, but it's two parts. That is shimming the spool so the line lays level on the spool. If you have a reel that lays line more on the bottom, or more on the top, it's not going to work as good as it can. If you shim your spool so it lays line level, these work just fine with any line. If they lay line more on top, then you add spacers. If they lay line more on bottom, then you remove spacers. I don't remember off the top of my head exactly, but I think my 710, 712z, and 722z all lay line perfectly fine with the original teflon washer they come with under the spool. I know I added a shim to my 722 in the form of a spare drag washer I had laying around. On my 710z it was laying line more on the bottom, so I had to remove spacers. I did not try it with no washer at all, bras on the aluminum spool might be fine. I ended up making a thin shim from .005" thick mylar plastic to replace my teflon spacer, and it lays perfectly that way. This isn't rocket science, they just have to be kind of close. I can fully recommend adding a drag washer if you need a spacer, or making a thin mylar spacer if you need less.
The second part of this is that spacer does effect your drag. To most it probably will not matter, but if you want to get the strongest drag you can which is also smooth, then replace that teflon washer, it is more slick than you would think. I don't care about maximum drag, so most of my reels have carbon fiber drag washers up top, but still have the Teflon spacer under the spool. This produces a very smooth drag. If you replace the teflon with a carbon fiber (or add one on top if you need extra spacers), this increases the maximum drag you get from the reel. I am not using grease on my spacers, but I always grease the drag washers in the spool. I want the smoothest drag I can get. Those trying to maximize drag might want to use no grease at all. I found the mylar shim also increases drag over the teflon, yet produces a smooth drag. One last little tid bit about drags, some reels come with dimpled steel or brass washers for the top, which allow the drag knob to have click adjustments. I really like these, and I would recommend people find those washers if your reel came with smooth ones.
One of the biggest complaints you hear about with these reels is the bails. There's the fact they are automatic only, and there's also the complaint they can flip closed during cast. Both my 722 and 722z I have cut the bail wire so they are manual pickup now. Both my 710 and 710z I have left alone, but they could easily be cut manual pickup. The 712's, I do not think they would perform good as manual pickup. The line roller is set very low on the rotor, the line guide is actually below the top lip of the rotor, the line goes through a cut out in the rotor. Maybe it would work, but I suspect it would be sub par. As for manual pickup on suitable reels such as the 722's, 710's, and 704's, it works fine. I suspect it would be fine on the 714 too, and the 720 is the same as the 722. I'm unsure on the 716. You can easily take the line out, cast with full confidence, and then put the line back on the guide. It doesn't take long to get used to it. I suspect it would not be quite as enjoyable with monofilament, but with braid as limp as it is, it works pretty good.
Alternatively I've found some things to make using the bail not just workable, but enjoyable. First it comes with the caveat that your reel doesn't have mechanical issues. If your bail spring, or bail release arm spring are worn out, then it's never going to work right. They also have to be clean of course. Sand doesn't seem to be a big issue, but corrosion and fine dust certainly can. Once you are sure your reel is in good order, the first tuning tip I have is to rotate your bearing retainer plate. You can put it on in three positions, and it does make a big difference. This is easier to show than explain, but the bump which activates the bail release is what you want to adjust. Generally people open the bail with the line roller right at their finger, we will call that 12 o clock looking down on the reel from the top. If you have the bearing plate turned so the bail releases at about 2 o clock, I get a lot of accidental trips. During a cast the spool can rotate from torque, or even just the reel handle and having that release so close is asking for issues. If you turn it 1/3rd (3 screws on the plate), it will now release the bail at about 6 o clock. I find this is the sweet spot for me which I will tell why in the next paragraph. I don't get accidental trips here, at least I haven't yet. You can also turn it 1/3rd more, and the bail will trip at about 10 o clock. The only trick to this position is your line roller has to be all the way at 12 o clock to open. If you try to open the bail any earlier the release is already over the spot so it won't lock open. I'm sure you would get used to that quick. The advantage is you would just about guarantee the bail would not accidentally close. The downside is you now have to turn the reel so much farther to close the bail after a cast.
While these are automatic only bails, I've found ways to close them without the reel handle. On the 710, the bail release is big enough you can just push it with your thumb to manually close it. It actually works pretty good. The 722's is kind of small, it's not easy to do, maybe with small fingers. If you could add a small knob or handle to it that would certainly work. The 712 it's not really an option since their bail release is on the opposite side and it's not easy to push either. So at least for the 710 only, you can manually close them with no modifications. Alternatively what I've been doing is after a cast, take the rotor in the palm of your hand and in quick motion roll that rotor and it will rotate far enough to close the bail. You are essentially doing the same thing you would if you used the reel handle, but you don't have to reach for the handle, turn it, move your hand back, grab the line to pull it tight, and then back to the handle to reel. I suppose there's other ways to do it too. When I cast my hand is right on the rotor and many times I'll thumb the spool to control the cast. Most of the time I fully brake the line before the lure hits the water so the line is already taught. Then just snap the wrist and the bail is closed, really no different than a manual close bail, except you aren't grabbing the bail.
I don't know if this counts as tuning, but going back to braided lines and issues people have. All of my reels, even my bait casters all have monofilament backing on them because I don't need the full line capacity. This works great. If you are somebody who wants the maximum line capacity you can do that too, and I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge. All you need to do is take a small bit of electrical tape and stick it on the bottom of your spool. It really is that easy, just a small tape maybe 1/2" wide by 1" long is all it takes and braid tied directly to the spool will not rotate when you do this. You can use 100% braid on any reel like this.
Hopefully this helps, I'll update with more tuning tricks if I think of any more.
Nice notes! Only comment I would make - yes, back in the day electrical tape was a "go-to" for creating a non-slip arbor before the advent of "braid ready" spools, and I did it many times. Elsewhere on the forum you can see where "The Boss" has posted photos of some of the downsides of electrical tape in a saltwater environment. For me my "goto" now in those situations is a couple wraps of 'flex wrap' finger tape, and a light coating of grease on the deeper parts of the spool, although I suspect if a reel is not regularly maintained it probably doesn't matter what you put on there. Great write up! - john
Enjoy to read your note about Peen spinfisher ,It make me to dig out my 712z that I bought long time ago , never put line on it .What is the different between 712 and 712z ? For the same size spool with Dam 220 , 712z is much more heavier but it's quality reel I may start fish with it .Other Peen that I use more often is 4300ss and 4500ss
I'm not the best person to ask, but I have done some research this year on the Penn reels. I think it explains some things. It seems hard to get exact dates since some sources disagree. I did find this spreadsheet from oc1 which lists a bunch of years. https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,31112.msg385000.html#new
I do question some of the dates. We know the 700 was the first of the spinfishers, the first Penn spinning reel ever in fact. Right on the Penn website it says 1961 is the year it came out, so I have to doubt the spreadsheets date of 1963. Along with that I have found an online copy of the Penn 1963 catalog, and in that, the 710 is listed as new, so I can only assume the 700 came before 1963, and that was the year the 710 came out. So the 710 was right there as one of the originals. It was a full 5 years according to the spreadsheet before another spinfisher came out. I'll just list them below in the order I think they came out. Sorry, I'm going to skip the left hand (right side handle) versions, but the were scattered in the in between years.
700-1961
710-1963
720-1968
722-1969
704-1969
712-1971
706-1975
714-1975
716-1975
750ss-1977
450ss-1978
550ss-1978
650ss-1978
All the original spinfishers (except the 700/702 which was dropped) became the Z series in 1978
I think it's so odd the 720/722's came out before the 714/716's but that's for another day. You will notice the 710 and 712 are 8 years apart. They share the same lower body, it's only the top end that is different. I think that's the reason the 712 is what it is. It was an afterthought. The rotor is kind of goofy, the bail setup is goofy. Plus they are a little chunky since it's a 710 body.
Still, is it really as bad as we perceive? For actual size the 712 is comparable to about a 4000 size reel today. The Line capacity is somewhere between 3000 and 4000 depending on what brand you are looking at. I had a Shimano Sienna 4000 and a Penn Fierce 4000 laying around so I weighted them. The Shimano is all plastic, it's as light as you could get and it's 11.9 ounces. The Fierce is all metal body, but it's pretty light duty. It's 13.5 ounces. The Penn 712 is 15 ounces. So yes, it's heavier, but not by a mile. In terms of size, the 712 should be comparable to a 430SS. The 710 comparable to a 450SS. If anything I might guess the SS series is heavier, but I'd have to check. The only one I have is a 550SS. You do have the 4300SS though, which is a later model with a graphite body, and I assume it's lighter.
I think the 712 is a fine reel, but personally I would take the 714 if they weren't so crazy expensive. Honestly I think a 722 will do pretty much all a 712 needs to do, and if that's not enough, just get the OG, the 710.
As for the difference between a 712 and 712z, not really anything besides paint. Certain models have some changes over the years, not just when they went to the Z series. The 710 for example, almost all of the originals had plastic spools. Most were green, a few were black. I think I've even seen some maroon or tan ones. Once the 710 became the 710z they all had gold anodized aluminum spools and were painted black. I'm not aware of any model having any real mechanical changes internally.
@Brewcrafter, you will have to fill me in as I only fish freshwater. Does the electrical tape turn gummy in salt water? If it makes any difference, I'm sure all I've used is 3M 33+, since that's pretty much the only tape I carry besides colored tape. It might have been super 88, but I never buy that at home. I've taken line off reels I'm sure were on there 10 years and the tape was still good enough I could have left it on there if I wanted. I can understand why the flex wrap works though, it does the same thing without the strong adhesive. Why use grease though?
Thank you Slugmeister
I strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding.
Mono has way too much weather related expansion and contraction. Mono backing is a great way to crack or pop the front off of the spool, even aluminum spools have been known to crack or break when mono goes all the way to the stem.
I only feel the need to have 120 yds of top line for the fishing I do so anything more than that is compensated buy the use of an arbor, or preferably dacron backing, which is relatively cheep and lasts for a decade or two before it needs to be replaced.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on April 26, 2024, 04:30:23 PMI strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding.
Mono has way too much weather related expansion and contraction. Mono backing is a great way to crack or pop the front off of the spool, even aluminum spools have been known to crack or break when mono goes all the way to the stem.
I only feel the need to have 120 yds of top line for the fishing I do so anything more than that is compensated buy the use of an arbor, or preferably dacron backing, which is relatively cheep and lasts for a decade or two before it needs to be replaced.
I always told that you have to use mono backing to prevent line slip ,I also use mono to fill up about half spoon before tight on braid .Mono don't absorb water that may cause rust in spool
Whoever told you that gave you some bad advice. ::)
Quote from: slugmeister on April 26, 2024, 06:44:45 AM@Brewcrafter, you will have to fill me in as I only fish freshwater. Does the electrical tape turn gummy in salt water? If it makes any difference, I'm sure all I've used is 3M 33+, since that's pretty much the only tape I carry besides colored tape. It might have been super 88, but I never buy that at home. I've taken line off reels I'm sure were on there 10 years and the tape was still good enough I could have left it on there if I wanted. I can understand why the flex wrap works though, it does the same thing without the strong adhesive. Why use grease though?
For freshwater, your concerns are NOT the same level as the salty guys! The concern being that electrical tape can trap residue that over time leads to corrosion on aluminum or metal spools (I did a quick search but could not find the post from Alan I was looking for yet). As far as the very mild layer of grease...
In a saltwater environment gives a layer of protection to the underlying metal....
If you do it on the "deep" areas of the reel, this is line that very infrequently gets dumped off the spool - up near the edges line abrasion of putting line off/on likely wipes off any protection (and may also have a downside of leaving residue on your line down toward the "business end" that could be detrimental to fish bites). Over the years folks have used car wax, Chap Stick, you name it to help coat and protect spools. Again, in freshwater your concerns are minimal! Loving your in depth study on these Penn Spinners...thanks for the info- john
Quote from: Midway Tommy on April 26, 2024, 06:17:49 PMWhoever told you that gave you some bad advice. ::)
So I should use a arbor or a spacer ,No body sell them anymore .I have lots of used braid line should I use it
Quote from: Midway Tommy on April 26, 2024, 04:30:23 PMI strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding.
Mono has way too much weather related expansion and contraction. Mono backing is a great way to crack or pop the front off of the spool, even aluminum spools have been known to crack or break when mono goes all the way to the stem.
I only feel the need to have 120 yds of top line for the fishing I do so anything more than that is compensated buy the use of an arbor, or preferably dacron backing, which is relatively cheep and lasts for a decade or two before it needs to be replaced.
I've been thinking how to respond to this, but I can't figure out a good way. People have spooled reels with 100% nylon monofilament for decades. What you have said is pure bologna. I'm not sure if you missed april fools day, or if this is some kind of running joke or what.
Now if we can ignore that ridiculousness, a 650 yard spool of Berkley Big game monofilament is under $10. Dacron is fine for backing too, but it's not cheap like it used to be. I swear even 10 years ago the stuff was the same price as mono. Now it's the same price as super braids. It looks like Spiderwire Durabraid is actually cheaper than Woodstock dacron!
Actually, Tommy is spot on. Yes - mono has been used for decades (I should know, I have been around for quite a few of them) and has been used with no issues. And elsewhere in this forum (and Jurlometer has a great breakdown of the physics) mono line can cause problems, especially with plastic or composite spools. Reason being it has stretch, and with that comes contraction. Metal spools are pretty much immune to this, but the best materials for backing are inert ones like Dacron, Spectra, or even spool arbors made of wood or cork like what many old spinners came with. You can reproduce this effect yourself fairly easy; take some quality mono of a given strength, and it is fairly easy to stretch it under minimal tension. Mark two lines on a pencil, dowel, etc about 1" apart, and tightly wrap 1 layer of mono around this (heavier mono will make it even more apparent). When you do that the line becomes thinner (basically you have the same amount of material, but now stretched over a longer distance). When the tension that causes that is relaxed, the line contracts to its original state and the diameter increases. When you release the tension on that mono that you just wrapped around the pencil/dowel etc. over that inch or so - you will now see that it increases in length by a fraction over those marks that you wound it under tension to (assuming that it is still 1 layer) Multiply that effect by many hundreds of wraps on a spool, and that expansion of layer upon layer can contain a LOT of energy. Plastic spools historically cannot hold the tension, and will fail - this is a real thing. - john
I am certain lines stretch and contract, I don't doubt you there. There may be some absolute trash reels over the years that MIGHT have broken from being spooled with monofilament, although personally if my reel was that flimsy, I sure wouldn't be putting $20 of braid onto it. I would just use it until it broke. That was the case for plenty of reels I had as a kid, although I never once had a spool break. It's to the point I can't even call what you are saying a myth, because over my lifetime I'm sure I've talked to thousands and thousands of fisherman and women, and never once have I ever heard of a broken spool that didn't involve dropping it.
So again, to quote Midway Tommy "I strongly disagree with the use of monofilament as a backing if one doesn't need all the line a spool is capable of holding." That is a completely baseless claim that nobody else will make. Maybe it's different in California as is most things, but around here if you ask 500 people what they use for line backing, you will find some that don't use backing at all, many of those will be using 100% mono, but of the ones that do use backing, every single one of them will be using monofilament. Not a single one of them will have ever had their spools broken from monofilament. If you asked that same exact question in 1995 you would probably get 490 of them using 100% monofilament, and 10 running 100% dacron. You might have found a few guys using 100% straight fluorocarbon too. None of them would have had a broken spool from the line. I'm just pulling these numbers out of thin air of course, but your claims are beyond ridiculous.
Unless either of you two can provide any real evidence that any real numbers of broken spools can be blamed from monofilament, meaning more than 1 in 100 chance, please just stop.
Quote from: quang tran on April 26, 2024, 06:28:27 PMQuote from: Midway Tommy on April 26, 2024, 06:17:49 PMWhoever told you that gave you some bad advice. ::)
So I should use a arbor or a spacer ,No body sell them anymore .I have lots of used braid line should I use it
You could use your used braid if you want. Or you can use monofilament. Around here Berkley Big Game is generally the cheapest, and it's still quality line. 10# is usually what I use for backing, but it's not super important. Just don't use something huge like 40# as that doesn't lay right unless you have a really big reel.
Quote from: Brewcrafter on April 26, 2024, 06:21:58 PMQuote from: slugmeister on April 26, 2024, 06:44:45 AM@Brewcrafter, you will have to fill me in as I only fish freshwater. Does the electrical tape turn gummy in salt water? If it makes any difference, I'm sure all I've used is 3M 33+, since that's pretty much the only tape I carry besides colored tape. It might have been super 88, but I never buy that at home. I've taken line off reels I'm sure were on there 10 years and the tape was still good enough I could have left it on there if I wanted. I can understand why the flex wrap works though, it does the same thing without the strong adhesive. Why use grease though?
For freshwater, your concerns are NOT the same level as the salty guys! The concern being that electrical tape can trap residue that over time leads to corrosion on aluminum or metal spools (I did a quick search but could not find the post from Alan I was looking for yet). As far as the very mild layer of grease...
In a saltwater environment gives a layer of protection to the underlying metal....
If you do it on the "deep" areas of the reel, this is line that very infrequently gets dumped off the spool - up near the edges line abrasion of putting line off/on likely wipes off any protection (and may also have a downside of leaving residue on your line down toward the "business end" that could be detrimental to fish bites). Over the years folks have used car wax, Chap Stick, you name it to help coat and protect spools. Again, in freshwater your concerns are minimal! Loving your in depth study on these Penn Spinners...thanks for the info- john
I didn't even think about the corrosion aspect of it. No, that's not something we worry about in fresh water. Doesn't that flex wrap soak up water? Or maybe it dries quick too? Do you have to rinse off your reels when you get home?
Let's play nice here.
I also disagree (respectfully) with Tommy, but not as strongly. I do know that he knows more about vintage spinning reels (including fishing them, not just collecting) than pretty much the rest of us combined. If he has concerns about nylon busting plastic spools it is worth listening to, even if the exact mechanism for failure might be debatable.
Knowing Tommy a little. I would guess that he probably doesn't mind you challenging him (respectfully) about not using mono, but he is probably not happy with the implication that he is a Californian :)
I'll put my comments on the subject itself in a separate post.
-J
If you put enough nylon backing on an old plastic spool, and pack it tight enough, you run the risk of busting the spool. The risk varies by spool model, the thickness of the line and how much tension that you load it under. Us saltwater guys that packed 40 lb mono onto plastic conventional reel spools and pulled harder on bigger fish broke them regularly. I agree with the OP's point about spools not blowing up left and right despite the near universal use of nylon line. I suspect that this failure is less common for the average trout, bass or musky fisherman that don't put much load on the spool, and spinning reel spool shapes are generally vulnerable to this type of failure than conventional spools. But specific models might be more of a risk, especially as they age.
As to moisture: Nylon is capable of absorbing a significant amount of moisture. If the moisture goes in, the line gets bigger. But if the line is already packed tight, it won't absorb as much moisture. Sort of like a sponge that is squeezed absorbing less water. And wet nylon becomes more malleable and elastic. I don't see moisture as a major contributor to the risk, but this is sort of a moot point. The risk is nylon expansion, regardless of the exact mechanism.
Now let's get back to using nylon backing. Assuming that you want to minimize the risk:
The farther from the arbor, the more leverage on the spool walls, so if you are using a modest amount of nylon, not much risk to a vulnerable spool. So the nylon question comes into play if you are using it for a significant amount of filler.
As to the arbor and tape/wrap/short section of nylon:
Many of us here believe that tape or a short section of nylon to prevent braid slipping is not really necessary. You just need a couple extra wraps before the arbor knot and a slightly longer tag. There is debate on this exact topic on this site, and I would invite you to read up on it a bit and decide for yourself.
Applying tape can unbalance a smaller conventional spool, and in saltwater, tape, and to a lesser extent stretch wrap, can keep saltwater from fully evaporating, and wet and salty (an electrolyte solution) corrodes metals much more quickly than dry and salty. But this is primarily a concern with metal spools in saltwater.
Quote from: slugmeister on April 26, 2024, 10:33:38 PMDo you have to rinse off your reels when you get home?
You freshwater guys have it too easy! Fighting corrosion is a losing battle, but it is the primary concern in saltwater reel maintanence. I usually soak myreels in a bucket of warm fresh water one a week, but most folk here prefer a gentle wash and more frequent breakdown/clean/reasembly. Many recommend unspooling braid and trying to desalt it at the end of the season. spools are coated with grease or wax as well.
-J
Maybe I was too harsh, but I still find the idea that monofilament, the #1 most popular fishing line in the world for longer than any other type of fishing line ever, is somehow going to damage a spool that wasn't already trash is ridiculous. I am sorry I said Tommy was from California, it looks like I saw Brewcrafters location by accident. It is kind of odd now that I see Tommy is from Nebraska, me from South Dakota, we are practically neighbors. I'm quite confident nobody around here is running giant conventional reels with plastic spools and 40 pound mono backing. The biggest fish we have is blue catfish, and I've never seen a catfish guy running a setup like that.
So while maybe there may be a small special circumstances where mono may not be the idea backing, I am fully confident it is the best choice for the other 98% of the time, and pretty much 100% of the time around here in South Dakota and Nebraska. Since this is a Penn spinfisher thread, I really, really doubt the 710 plastic spool is going to be harmed by anything, there's nothing thin or frail about it. Plastic spools are pretty rare on the other spinfishers from what I've seen. All of the Z series have aluminum spools.
I too have got away with running braid straight on an aluminum spool, but I think it depends on what line you are using. It really comes down to how waxy it is. Something like Berkley x9 I don't think would hold onto a spool well at all. Since we don't have corrosion issues, I don't see any reason to not use electrical tape, or flex tape, or whatever other rubbery type stuff you have. Since I always choose reels a little bigger than needed, and only like to put 150 yards or meters of line on, I almost exclusively use mono backing on my reels.
Yes we have it pretty easy for gear care in fresh water it seems. There's a lot of things I would never have thought about. I have fished in Florida and Texas in salt water, but it doesn't seem any harm comes from a single trip. You might be surprised how hard musky guys can be on reels. A lot of the most popular lures are over 10 ounces. There's some over a full pound. That's not what I call easy on the spool. Before super braid, a lot of those guys ran dacron braid, not because it saved the spool, but because it has the same advantages as super braid such as low stretch. Muskies are not particularly line shy or deep water fish, so it worked really well. Nowadays most guys are running super heavy braids like 80 pound, more just to handle the lures. The fish fight itself is nothing by comparison.
Gentlemen, I strongly urge everyone to keep this discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks. One thing that makes this forum so good is the HEALTHY dialog between accomplished fishermen and reel mechanics.
One thing to keep in mind is the varied circumstances each of us fish in. Whether lake, pond, stream, river, surf, offshore, etc. Each brings its own pitfalls.
After reading through this thread I see four different fishing types.
What works for the stream fisherman does not necessarily cross over to off shore tuna, and visaversa.
Personally I have seen a Penn 85 with a plastic spool, Penn Jigmaster with plastic spool, and a second generation J.A.Coxe with a three piece metal spool, all suffer breakage from mono contraction. All three are conventional (multiplier) reels.
However I have never seen a spinning reel suffer damage from mono.
The end result here, is you may disagree with someone else's opinion and they may disagree with yours. So be it, but keep it civil.
Bill
;D Here is proof that mono line can jack apart a spool. :fish You may need to catch bigger fighting fish to experience this phenomenon . When mono relaxes on the spool after hard drag , it subject to pop. One of the reasons why I build aluminium spools . Just saying it does happen !
Wow! Thanks Joe, never seen a spinning reel pop. Bill
Well I'll be. I shot an offer on a 714z, and they actually accepted it. $60 plus shipping is more than I wanted to pay, but it's way cheaper than any others listed online. I'll get to play with that soon and hopefully have some more notes on spinfisher's soon. Chances are I'm going to sell both my 712's, I just don't like them much.
Cool beans. Bill
First off let me say that most people here are well aware that I know very little and could care less regarding conventional reels. Over 50 years ago I took a 5 gallon bucket full of level winds and dumped them in the middle of Woman Lake in north central MN. The few I now have left are hand-me-down heirlooms from my granddad and father. ;D
Quote from: jurelometer on April 26, 2024, 11:10:32 PMI also disagree (respectfully) with Tommy, but not as strongly......... If he has concerns about nylon busting plastic spools it is worth listening to, even if the exact mechanism for failure might be debatable.
Knowing Tommy a little. I would guess that he probably doesn't mind you challenging him (respectfully) about not using mono, but he is probably not happy with the implication that he is a Californian :)
-J
It doesn't really bother me that much, Dave. Some Left Coast & Central Plains ideology may differ a little but I have an awful lot of CA friends and acquaintances that are really nice people, and overall, we all have a lot in common. ;) ;D
QuoteBill B
April 26, 2024, 07:35:01 PM
Wow! Thanks Joe, never seen a spinning reel pop.
Bill
Here's a few I saved that came with some of the reels I have purchased over the years. I kept them because I thought at some point when I get all my other projects completed I might put them back together using nylon or aluminum binder posts and Chicago screws. At that point they would be stronger than original. I've probably also thrown twice that many away.
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Most people that have extensively serviced, repaired and/or collected older/vintage open faced spinning reels over the years are well aware that monofilament line can play havoc on certain types of plastic and graphite spools. Some can with withstand the stress and some won't. The main problem is you never know which spool has been overly stressed or has had a little too much UV degradation until it breaks while in use under the stress & pressure. The main culprit is the expansion and contraction of the mono, especially a full spool of it. For those that live in climates that see hot and cold extremes the contraction is exacerbated when the person goes fishing in late fall and the mono soaks up a bunch of water. If he/she lives where it gets extremely cold and then stores their rod/reel in the garage or leaves it in their unconditioned boat over the winter the exposure to extreme freezing temperatures makes the mono contract even more. I've known a few people who have done this that went to use their outfit in the spring only to find the front flange of the spool had popped off with line unraveled out the front of the reel/spool. The best way to combat this problem is, if the fishing you do doesn't require a full spool of line and you use mono, is to use a cork or plastic filler/arbor or use Dacron backing. I don't use the newer type braids but I suppose that would work as backing, too.
Quite honestly, I could care less if someone wants to use my advise to their advantage, or not. If they don't it sure won't be any skin off my back or cost me any frustration or money. ;) :D
Quote from: Midway Tommy on April 29, 2024, 02:42:11 AMFirst off let me say that most people here are well aware that I know very little and could care less regarding conventional reels. Over 50 years ago I took a 5 gallon bucket full of level winds and dumped them in the middle of Woman Lake in north central MN. The few I now have left are hand-me-down heirlooms from my granddad and father. ;D
Quote from: jurelometer on April 26, 2024, 11:10:32 PMI also disagree (respectfully) with Tommy, but not as strongly......... If he has concerns about nylon busting plastic spools it is worth listening to, even if the exact mechanism for failure might be debatable.
Knowing Tommy a little. I would guess that he probably doesn't mind you challenging him (respectfully) about not using mono, but he is probably not happy with the implication that he is a Californian :)
-J
It doesn't really bother me that much, Dave. Some Left Coast & Central Plains ideology may differ a little but I have an awful lot of CA friends and acquaintances that are really nice people, and overall, we all have a lot in common. ;) ;D
It bothers me a bit. I like that a bunch of folk from all over the world with all kinds of life experiences get along well here!
Just trying to keep it light regarding the California stuff. I'd be honored to take you out for a tofu dog the next time you are out on the West coast :)
QuoteMost people that have extensively serviced, repaired and/or collected older/vintage open faced spinning reels over the years are well aware that monofilament line can play havoc on certain types of plastic and graphite spools. Some can with withstand the stress and some won't. The main problem is you never know which spool has been overly stressed or has had a little too much UV degradation until it breaks while in use under the stress & pressure. The main culprit is the expansion and contraction of the mono, especially a full spool of it. For those that live in climates that see hot and cold extremes the contraction is exacerbated when the person goes fishing in late fall and the mono soaks up a bunch of water. If he/she lives where it gets extremely cold and then stores their rod/reel in the garage or leaves it in their unconditioned boat over the winter the exposure to extreme freezing temperatures makes the mono contract even more. I've known a few people who have done this that went to use their outfit in the spring only to find the front flange of the spool had popped off with line unraveled out the front of the reel/spool. The best way to combat this problem is, if the fishing you do doesn't require a full spool of line and you use mono, is to use a cork or plastic filler/arbor or use Dacron backing. I don't use the newer type braids but I suppose that would work as backing, too.
The way that nylon works is that it fairly quickly adjust to ambient humidity. I 3D print the stuff, and you have to pre-dry it so that it is not spewing off steam as you melt it to lay down the layers of plastic. If you are doing a 3D print that takes several hours, the spool of nylon filament has to be to encased in a humidity controlled container so that it does not reabsorb moisture in the air to equalize with ambient humidity and screw up the print.
While I am 100% on board in terms of spools getting blown out by nylon line, I suspect that it is more a factor of time (and maybe temperature). To much pressure for too long and kablooey. Nylon just equalizes to ambient humidity too fast, and I also don't see a way that getting wet actually causes the stretched nylon to store more energy than dry.
When you say "contraction", not sure whether you are referring to expansion or compression.
The problem is going to be expansion, and not compression as mentioned in the recent threads on this topic. As the stretched nylon tries to return to its original length, the diameter is trying to expand. This puts load on the spool walls, pushing them apart from each other. Your photos of failed spools are consistent with this type of failure. If the failure was based on compression, the arbor portion of the spool would have collapsed.
BTW, graphite reel parts are plastic too. Nylon to be exact- Nylon filled with ground or chopped carbon fibers (up to 20%, I think) is marketed as "graphite". The fibers make the nylon stiffer and more dimensionally accurate. But instead of stretching under load like pure nylon, it is more prone to fracture. No free lunch. I also 3D print this stuff. Pretty interesting material.
-J
When I was growing up, if you had a plastic spool and were lucky enough to catch a large fish, then you would wind the line off and back on after you got home. Otherwise, you could have a popped spool by the next time you went fishing. A pleasant ritual given the circumstances.
The Penn 85 I saw blow up was used by me on a sunny 68* day for trolling on the Sacramento River. Overnight it dipped to frost level. When we go into the boat in the morning to fish again the spool was toast. The Jigmaster and J.A. Coxe were in for a service because the reel wouldn't crank. Bill
I got the Penn 714z all cleaned up and played with that one some. There isn't a whole lot you can do with these. The bearing retainer only goes on one way, so no tuning for the bail closing, but it's in the 6 o clock position like I prefer. You could probably shim the spool just like the others. The most surprising thing I found was the spool has a quick change feature where you push the button on top and the whole assembly comes off. I can't possibly imagine where this is an advantage over taking 3 seconds to unscrew a drag knob, but who am I to judge?
My biggest fear was the drag setup. After experiencing the horrendous, and that's being nice, drag on an old ambassador with 2 drag washers, I was really worried the single drag washer 714z would be bad. I am happy to say the 714z drag is very good, every bit as good as any other spinfisher, and I guess technically it's 2 drag washers since the one under the spool does effect drag. That top drag washer is huge, it has plenty of surface area. I even tried a carbon fiber washer under the spool, and greased it, and it did the same thing as all the other spin fishers I tried. It's really smooth, but it increases the effective drag. So I went back to the teflon washer and it's very smooth, and I feel I have a wider effective range of drag. It's not like I'm going to put 30 pound line on this reel. The bail setup is a mini 712 bail, and it is pretty low. It is a little higher than the 712's, and you might be able to make it a manual pickup, but I would try leaving some bail wire, and kind of swoop it up. I know I've seen pictures of setups like that, but I can't remember what models.
I don't know if this is typical or not, but the drag clicker on the bottom of the spool was not working. It's a frail metal flat spring, and mine needed to be bent. It's a surprisingly long spring, I'm not sure if it's supposed to be clicking on two spots or what. I bent mine so only one end is clicking on the ratchet. Mine has a really faint clicking, it might be loud enough, but it's nowhere close to the other reels I've worked on. I'll have to look into this farther.
Internally the 714 is a near identical match to all the other spinfishers except the 720/722. Externally there is no oil hole for the main gear, so you would presumably have to disassemble the reel to oil that. The gear cover is plastic, which is the first one I've seen. Maybe it was just luck, but the others I've worked on are metal. The thing that stands out to me is how small this reel is. I knew it would be small, but I figured the spool would be bigger. Supposedly the 714 has the exact same line capacity as a 722. Looking at them side by side its hard to believe that. My 722 does have line on it, so maybe the spool is way deeper on the 714z, but the spool height is way different. As far as weight, the 714z weights 9.1 ounces empty. The 722 has line on it, which I have no idea how much that weighs. It is 10.8 ounces full of braid line. I think the 722 must be a full ounce more than the 714, if not slightly more than an ounce.
Unfortunately the line roller is locked up solid on this one. I'm still soaking it, so I can't fish with it yet. Just my initial impressions that are hard to get from only looking at the line capacities. Even though the line capacity may be the same as the 722, I think in actual use the 714 is effectively a smaller reel. You aren't going to be able to use the line deeper in the spool unless a fish pulls that off. A 722 is going to outcast a 714 in distance all else equal. I'm definitely going to try some light line on the 714z, 8lb if not 6lb braid.
So now I've seen the majority of the spinfisher range. I've owned from smallest to largest, the 714, 722, 712, and 710. I also have from the SS series the 550ss. The only one's I haven't worked on is a 706 or 704. I guess I haven't seen an 850ss either, I bet that's a real beast. If it weren't for the oddball 420ss and 430ss, I'd say the SS series numbers line up good to todays sizes. I will try to compare them to todays current model reels in terms of overall size, purpose, and line capacity for anyone looking at buying them.
716 (never owned)- 500 or 1000
714- 1000 or 1500
720/722- 2000 or 2500
712- 3000
710- 4000
550ss- 5000 or 5500 (no surprise)
Some good information in your observations, SM —-
Thanks!
I, too, use primarily Berkley Trilene mono. Get it in 3 & 5 pound supply spools. 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 17, 20, 25, 30, & 40 pound.
Here is my take, after working on tens of thousands of quality brand spinning reels over the past 40+ years —- from all parts of the world —- but mostly North America.
Issues & Observations —-
Hard plastic spools do break when Mono is improperly installed or stored on reels —- heat, cold, storage, it is common.
Penn 710/711 plastic spools never break. They are a different type of plastic that has a little "give", and do not break.
The spools that most often break are the hard plastic ones on Cardinal 4's, DQ 220/221's, some 330/331's, some 110's and 110N's, rarely on some Cardinal 3's —- but I have a few examples.
Metal aluminum spools nearly never, ever break with mono —- at least I have never seen it in over 40 years.
Use a spacer or flex wrap.
Change and discard your line every year or two. Line is cheap compared to your other equipment, the possibility of a large fish, your fishing license, fuel, and your opportunity to have a successful fishing trip.
I know for a fact, that most mono is applied to a plastic spool way too tightly. The guy at the store where the reel was purchased used a powered line metering machine —- and was proud of how quickly and tightly he could install 200 yards of line on a plastic spinning reel spool. Recipe for disaster down the road (3-6 years). Because the average angler never completely "spools" his spinning reel line. So it stays too much on the bottom half —- and way too tight.
Remedies —-
Use some sort of spacer or flex backer on the bottom 1/3 when spooling your spinning reel.
Always spool a spinning reel spool by hand —- not a machine. I have (4) line metering machines —- but they are never used on spinning reels —- even though (2) of them are specifically for spinning reels. Use a loose rod bottom half with just slight finger back pressure.
Use metal aluminum spools when possible.
Treat yourself to fresh line every couple of years.
I have maybe 2500 to 3000 loose spinning spools. Only the used ones with mono on them crack. So without line —- they do not crack.
As said, aluminum spools do not crack. Also, skirted graphite or aluminum spools do not crack. A graphite spool will crack, if dropped on its top.
Thanks again, good info, SM.
Best, Fred
When I was growing up, Spiderwire and Fireline was already around, and fairly well known. Even still, when people said "fishing line", you could with relative certainty be sure they were talking about a nylon monofilament. This is nothing against you Foakes, but when I see pictures of spools that apparently were broken by regular old fishing line, I don't think fishing line on a fishing reel is the problem. I think those spools are junk. Call me a heretic if you will, plastic is plastic. It's cost cutting junk today, and it was space age junk back then. At least they made the 710 spool beefy enough to handle fishing line. So do whatever you want for your collections, but I maintain that any reel damaged by fishing line is not something you should be fishing with unless you are a collector. Nylon monofilament is the best backing you can use for a fishing reel today, and I'm not messing with spacers or wraps, or anything else to bandaid a poor design.
P.S. I have never used any kind of machine to spool my reels. I stick a spring and washer on a screwdriver, stick that through a spool of line followed by another washer, then stick that in a bench vice. I adjust that spring tension as I see fit. I don't use a ton of pressure, just what feel like reeling in a lure.
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Sounds like you have it all figured out, SM —-
Best, Fred
Quote from: foakes on May 05, 2024, 07:44:24 PM😄😄😄
Sounds like you have it all figured out, SM —-
Best, Fred
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FYI, Fred, I am, and have, living proof that skirted graphite spools will also crack and break from full spooled mono pressure. I have 3 that came with ABU Cardinal 50 & 150 and Zebco Cardinal 550 series reels I purchased online a few years back.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on May 05, 2024, 09:02:59 PM🤣🤣🤣
FYI, Fred, I am, and have, living proof that skirted graphite spools will also crack and break from full spooled mono pressure. I have 3 that came with ABU Cardinal 50 & 150 and Zebco Cardinal 550 series reels I purchased online a few years back.
If you aren't going to accept my apology, then move along.
I fish quite often with DQ220 and 221 with mono and later use mono as backing but never have any plastic spool broke because mono line .I do use drill to load line to spool .Also never have line slip if using mono backing, I do have line slip when not using mono backing
I got to work on the 714z some more. The drag clicker is kind of funky on these reels. Bending it just a little brings it from barely audible to extremely loud. I kept playing with it until I got that nice ringing click I like. So there's a tuning tip for the 714 drag clicker. Just bend it until it works. Also a tip, that removable spool assembly can make is nice to see that drag clicker spring so you can see how it needs to bend.
This reel was another that needed a spacer under the spool to make the line lay level. I tried a carbontex washer, but it increases the drag. I used a second teflon drag washer which works great, and the line lays level. Now all that's left to do is spool it up with some nice thin braid.