I know I have seen this topic before on how to join mono to braid or Dacron, maybe someone remembers the link to save some time?
Not on here, but this is pretty neat as the instructions are animated:
https://www.animatedknots.com
Also:
https://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots
:fish
Hopefully someone smarter can chime in with something better but if I'm joining 2 dissimilar lines I just about always go with a double uni.
I use the RP knot haven't had a failure yet and it's very easy to tie. Another very popular know is the FG, I haven't figured that one out yet
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 10, 2024, 04:59:28 PMHopefully someone smarter can chime in with something better but if I'm joining 2 dissimilar lines I just about always go with a double uni.
Quick, easy and it works.
Double Uni, but double(fold-over)the braid before making it the 2nd part of the uni. It can make the whole knot somewhat uniform. In Nelz's 2nd reference it's called the
"Double-double uni".
I've had very good service from the alberto knot. They're second nature to me now and I can tie them anywhere. I tried the FG knot, which is supposed to be a little stronger and thinner, but don't have the patience to get it right.
You're going to get a lot of (good) answers. Here is one from somebody you may recognize; and I believe quality single malt is critcal to knot integrity.
https://youtu.be/dkZr7hIQbfM?si=M3GHW7t3kk9WK5D-
When "on the water" an RP is usual go to. Uni/Uni also good, and I have even had success with FG (when tying on land taking my time). Regardless, they will probably ALL do the job, probably the most important part is practice and repetition to where you get repeated, consistent results IMO. - john
Any knot where the mono is bent back on itself is old-hat unless you're fishing extremely light lines. The newer "finger trap" style knots like the FG, PR and their relatives are stronger and far more streamlined due to not having the doubled mono.
If you're going to go through the hoops of learning a new knot (practice, repetition etc) you may as well make it a good one........
I'm a big fan of Alan's Modified Tony Pena. It took me a while to learn it because I'm bad at learning new knots. Bill
Quote from: boon on July 12, 2024, 12:35:45 AMAny knot where the mono is bent back on itself is old-hat unless you're fishing extremely light lines. The newer "finger trap" style knots like the FG, PR and their relatives are stronger and far more streamlined due to not having the doubled mono.
If you're going to go through the hoops of learning a new knot (practice, repetition etc) you may as well make it a good one........
There's a lot of value and logic in what you are saying. Under ideal and non rushed conditions I've tied some excellent FG knots (the PR knot is just an FG knot with a lot more wraps and a melted leader end).
But I've also tied some bad ones that shocked me how easily they failed.
So if I'm tying on leaders ahead of time at home, I go with an FG pretty often, especially a long leader whose knot needs to pass thru small guides. But if a leader breaks while fishing and I need to tie on a new one, it's almost always the Alberto (a finger trap style knot with the leader doubled over) that I go for. I can tie it standing on rocks in 30mph winds while getting splashed by waves. I absolutely cannot say that about the FG and def not the PR.
If an Alberto went wrong I can tell by looking before I even finish cinching it down and can probably fix it or know I need to try again. I don't need to lose a fish to know I failed.
I use the double uni if I'm tying to a backing line or if I'm being a cheapskate and joining 2 lengths of braid that on their own aren't long enough, or something else deep in the spool, like it sounds like James is asking about.
All personal opinions here. I am no authority on anything.
Jason is on the money.
Also it is sometimes useful to have a knot with an consistent but less than 100% breaking strength, so you can manage the point of failure in the system. I would break it down like this for our most popular knots:
1. Alan's version of the modified Tony Peña knot.
This is a knot for setting up a bigger non-casting reel intended to push drag limits. Bulky, but Alan is confident in being able to tie this knot with consistent results, and there has been plenty of pulling on big fish with high drag to back this up. Not a great knot for casting, due to its bulk. Not too hard to tie. Alan has posted a video on tying this knot.
2. FG, PR, etc. family of "knots". Not really a knot in the classic sense, more of a crisscross wrap digging into a straight section of mono, almost like simulating a splice into hollow braid, but requiring much more tension to keep from slipping. These knots can be very strong, and the low profile is great for passing through guides for casting. Most folk find these knots a bit difficult to tie well and/or quickly, at least at first. If you are new to using them, you need to keep an eye on the end unraveling from guide wear during casting. When a coil manages to slip off the end of the mono, these knots can go from near 100% to near zero in a heartbeat. Many folk use tools to facilitate tying these knots. Prepare to spend some time to master these. Probably more frequently used as a leader knot than a backing to mono knot.
3. The Alberto/RP/John Collins (all the same knot) Although this requires a doubled mono, the mono tag can be trimmed flush, making this a slim knot, good for casting, but not as slim or strong as the FG style. Easy to learn and fast to tie. I get about 70% of the braid breaking strength from this knot, making it perfect for me for casting lures with braid and a mono leader around 6 feet or so. I know that any breakoff is not going to leave a bunch of braid in the water. I am uncomfortable casting this through a levelwind with a ceramic insert, so if you want a couple wraps of leader around the spool on some levelwinds, something to consider. I also use this for a braid to mono backing knot, but I am not chasing cow tuna.
4. Double Uni. Not that slim, not that strong, but a Uni is a knot that many folk already use, so one less knot to remember. It does a good enough job that plenty of folk use it without complaint. Not a great knot to cast through the guides. If memory serves me correctly, it doesn't work as well with very large diameter mono and very small diameter braid.
-J
Lately I've been fishing mostly the Channel Islands using either a short 20lb floro leader or about 30yds of 20lb mono joined with a RP knot. For what it's worth the RP held up fine, the leader broke at the hook using a San Diego jam knot. Snags are plentiful there and I'm good at finding them. Not scientific at all but just my experience
The "not a knot" has not not been mentioned here. I have the tools to build L2L topshots and use them from 30# and up. For "light gear", 30# and under, I use several knots.
I have landed a few 200# plus tuna (like over 8 with the largest a BFT at 338#) using the L2L with zero attachment failures.
To the OP - is that heavy dacron on top of mono in the pic you attached? What's it intended for?
I can tie a knot just as good as Joe Biden, and remember them just as long.
Every year I have to review my knot animations to get some rigs tied up. I have been using the uni to uni over the years but feel it hit my guides. I wish rod builders would get away from the smaller eyelets some use.
When adding mono topshots to dacron (50lb and up) (or the heavier strength PE braid such as 150-200lb), I splice the mono into the hollow braided line and whip the juntion with fine, waxed floss. The details are important to prevent any chance of the mono sliding out but, properly done, it is 100% reliable and pretty much 100% in strength too as well as being slim and smooth for passing through the guides.
I would use the same system with finer PE braids but they are usually too thin to be able to splice (even with wearing extra-strong reading glasses!)
Downside it that it takes some time.
I have the time to build L2L topshots.
double uni, if very dissimilar diameter, double the braid with surgeon or bimini. I have broken equipment before this breaks.
Quote from: Bill B on July 12, 2024, 02:58:37 PMI'm a big fan of Alan's Modified Tony Pena. It took me a while to learn it because I'm bad at learning new knots. Bill
Quote from: Bill B on July 12, 2024, 02:58:37 PMI'm a big fan of Alan's Modified Tony Pena. It took me a while to learn it because I'm bad at learning new knots. Bill
That's what is called a Bob Sands knot. Same as the Tony Peña but with a uni rather than an overhead in the mono.
The best knot to tie is the knot you tie best. A theoretically better knot that you can't tie well isn't a better knot. I usually go with an Alberto/RP/Improved Albright... it has many names but it's easy, and good, to tie... works for me!
It pays to learn the best knot (or at least a good knot) for your particular application though. Loop to loop connections may be fine for trolling but would be a disadvantage for casting.
The pic in the OP looks like heavy dacron or braid on top of mono - is this some kind of casting leader? This seems like a somewhat unusual setup and I'd like to know what exactly is being used and what its intended purpose is. (I did ask in my post #14 but got no reply.)
https://youtu.be/dkZr7hIQbfM?feature=shared
Backing to main line, I go with a double uni, number of turns on each side depending on relative line size. Main line to shock leader, FG is very slightly less bulky but I use a single uni, plenty of turns, of the main line around the shocker, make a slight knob in the shocker with a hot lighter or cigar or soldering iron or stove grate, and with the uni almost cinched down all the way tight, I slide it down right down to the knob and then pull the uni dead tight. Then I take a piece of light line and make a free standing uni around the main line and slide it down to the join, so it sort of streamlines the knot from that side, too. I have never had this pull out. Braid to mono, or braid to braid. 20lb to 200 lb shock leader, or 40 to 80, whatever. Equal diameter, I use a normal double uni. I refresh that knot every fishing day because the last turn or two get beat up pretty good by the guides. I don't like to uni the shock leader around the main line because of the bulk.
So you're basically tying a uni knot like it's an FG? I'm gonna call it the FU knot.
Quote from: GrowleyMonster on July 29, 2024, 06:29:09 PMBacking to main line, I go with a double uni, number of turns on each side depending on relative line size. Main line to shock leader, FG is very slightly less bulky but I use a single uni, plenty of turns, of the main line around the shocker, make a slight knob in the shocker with a hot lighter or cigar or soldering iron or stove grate, and with the uni almost cinched down all the way tight, I slide it down right down to the knob and then pull the uni dead tight. Then I take a piece of light line and make a free standing uni around the main line and slide it down to the join, so it sort of streamlines the knot from that side, too. I have never had this pull out. Braid to mono, or braid to braid. 20lb to 200 lb shock leader, or 40 to 80, whatever. Equal diameter, I use a normal double uni. I refresh that knot every fishing day because the last turn or two get beat up pretty good by the guides. I don't like to uni the shock leader around the main line because of the bulk.
So the entire strength of your connection is the melted knob on the end of the leader?
I use the PR bobbin knot exclusively when setting up topshots prior to a trip. It's the strongest and slimmest going thru the guides of my jigging rods, plus I've mastered use of the bobbin by now.
But if I break off while out on the water I revert to the double Uni because I have not mastered using the bobbin on a rocking boat in the swells. Hopefully someday I can change that.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on July 30, 2024, 06:21:28 PMI use the PR bobbin knot exclusively when setting up topshots prior to a trip. It's the strongest and slimmest going thru the guides of my jigging rods, plus I've mastered use of the bobbin by now.
But if I break off while out on the water I revert to the double Uni because I have not mastered using the bobbin on a rocking boat in the swells. Hopefully someday I can change that.
Worth learning the FG. It's like 95% as good as a PR and much easier to tie on a boat. Either hold the braid in your teeth or put a loop around your reels handle. I'm the same as you, I'll tie a PR at home but I'm not good enough to tie them on the water.
I can't hold 20# PowerPro in my teeth and have to scrunch up a foot of line into a big knot to have something to bite down on. Then, I sit on the rod butt/handle and crank the reel to get the right amount of tension on the braid and start FG wrapping the fluorocarbon.
After the knot is pulled tight, I trim the fluoro to about 3-4 mm, hold the knot between two fingers and melt 1 mm into a glob on the end. If I don't burn my fingers then I know the heat did not affect the braid in the knot. After that, the tail end with the glob is whipped to the mainline using half-hitches. The glob keeps the half hitches from slipping off the end of the fluoro when pulled through the guides. Then more half-hitches are tied directly on the main to create sort of a bumper and smooth the transition.
For me, it is repetitive cast-and-retrieve over a gnarly bottom. The weak link is usually a spot of abrasion on the last foot of the 20# fluoro. The leader is 10 feet long to begin with. I keep cutting off the abraded end and retying as needed and replace the leader when it gets down to about five feet long. No way I could tie an FG on the boat.
Quote from: boon on July 12, 2024, 12:35:45 AMAny knot where the mono is bent back on itself is old-hat unless you're fishing extremely light lines. The newer "finger trap" style knots like the FG, PR and their relatives are stronger and far more streamlined due to not having the doubled mono.
If you're going to go through the hoops of learning a new knot (practice, repetition etc) you may as well make it a good one........
For many years i've used an albright knot and dont think it has ever broken. I use FG on my braid to leader, (min diameter0.8mm) but never considered using FG on thinner mono like my main line which is 0.55 mm
I don't know why the RP (AKA, Alberto, John Collins) knot is not getting more love here, especially for a quick tie. It is very easy and fast to tie. It is a very slim knot that when trimmed properly passes through guides well enough for casting. So well, that I never bother with an FG. Fine for drop jigging too. It is plenty reliable- it is a popular top shot to backing knot with the long range crowd chasing jumbo tuna.
Another key point with knot selection is that you want to manage the points of failure in your system. There are better and worse places to break off, and there is an ideal breaking load that may be less than the line capacity. If I am fishing fairly light tackle with heavier braid and leader for abrasion purposes, the last thing that I want is a 100% knot that makes it hard to break off when necessary, and when it does break, will be some random location on the braid, since GSP braid does not usually have uniform breaking strength like mono.
I definitely don't want my braid to mono leader/topshot connection to be as strong or stronger than the braid. The RP knot comes in about 70% of the braid very consistently for me which is perfect. I want to sacrifice the mono, and leave the braid on the reel and not on the bottom.
There are still places for 100% knots. For example, I prefer the strongest knot available to attach a $120 fly line to backing. But I think we get too caught up in trying to get as close as we can to 100% knots in way too many situations.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on July 31, 2024, 06:34:47 PMI don't know why the RP (AKA, Alberto, John Collins) knot is not getting more love here, especially for a quick tie. It is very easy and fast to tie. It is a very slim knot that when trimmed properly passes through guides well enough for casting. So well, that I never bother with an FG. Fine for drop jigging too. It is plenty reliable- it is a popular top shot to backing knot with the long range crowd chasing jumbo tuna.
Another key point with knot selection is that you want to manage the points of failure in your system. There are better and worse places to break off, and there is an ideal breaking load that may be less than the line capacity. If I am fishing fairly light tackle with heavier braid and leader for abrasion purposes, the last thing that I want is a 100% knot that makes it hard to break off when necessary, and when it does break, will be some random location on the braid, since GSP braid does not usually have uniform breaking strength like mono.
I definitely don't want my braid to mono leader/topshot connection to be as strong or stronger than the braid. The RP knot comes in about 70% of the braid very consistently for me which is perfect. I want to sacrifice the mono, and leave the braid on the reel and not on the bottom.
There are still places for 100% knots. For example, I prefer the strongest knot available to attach a $120 fly line to backing. But I think we get too caught up in trying to get as close as we can to 100% knots in way too many situations.
-J
No need for a 100% knot when fishing with 30% drag.
Quote from: boon on July 30, 2024, 12:36:07 AMQuote from: GrowleyMonster on July 29, 2024, 06:29:09 PMBacking to main line, I go with a double uni, number of turns on each side depending on relative line size. Main line to shock leader, FG is very slightly less bulky but I use a single uni, plenty of turns, of the main line around the shocker, make a slight knob in the shocker with a hot lighter or cigar or soldering iron or stove grate, and with the uni almost cinched down all the way tight, I slide it down right down to the knob and then pull the uni dead tight. Then I take a piece of light line and make a free standing uni around the main line and slide it down to the join, so it sort of streamlines the knot from that side, too. I have never had this pull out. Braid to mono, or braid to braid. 20lb to 200 lb shock leader, or 40 to 80, whatever. Equal diameter, I use a normal double uni. I refresh that knot every fishing day because the last turn or two get beat up pretty good by the guides. I don't like to uni the shock leader around the main line because of the bulk.
So the entire strength of your connection is the melted knob on the end of the leader?
No. The melt is just to help place it right at the end. Without the knob, it still holds though it could creep down a couple thousandths from plastic deformation, particularly if mono is involved. Try it for yourself. Tie on to a tree or something and see if you can make it slip before you trust it on a fish. That's what I did. If you snug down the single uni and use enough turns, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I have never had one pull out.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 31, 2024, 06:34:47 PMI don't know why the RP (AKA, Alberto, John Collins) knot is not getting more love here, especially for a quick tie.
It definitely got love on the first page. The shortcoming of an Alberto is if you want a long leader whose attachment may end up in the spool. They cast like crap. They cast much better when well tied and trimmed. But they still cast like crap.
There was a time when a spool of flouro was very expensive in my eyes. I was fishing way more on a budget then. And I would tie my weakest knot (a 7-turn "fisherman's knot") at the leader/hook connection. That way when I snagged a rock i would only lose the hook. And frankly I feel I should do that when using an FG knot. Last weekend I hooked the bottom with a very long FG knot and a crimped on hook to my 80# leader on 40# braid. Well thankfully the hook bent before the braid broke. But had it been an Alberto that would definitely have been the failure point.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 31, 2024, 06:34:47 PMI don't know why the RP (AKA, Alberto, John Collins) knot is not getting more love here, especially for a quick tie.
-J
for me, the issue is casting. with the RP/collins/alberto knots, the tag end of the mono will cut your fingers with 10 yards of fluoro on a cast. for bass guys, the tag under a load can pop out the ceramic insert of the line leveler. with the topy pena, the mono or fluoro tag causes problems on the return. less trouble tearing up my fingers.
I Don
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on August 01, 2024, 02:37:47 PMQuote from: jurelometer on July 31, 2024, 06:34:47 PMI don't know why the RP (AKA, Alberto, John Collins) knot is not getting more love here, especially for a quick tie.
It definitely got love on the first page. The shortcoming of an Alberto is if you want a long leader whose attachment may end up in the spool. They cast like crap. They cast much better when well tied and trimmed. But they still cast like crap.
There was a time when a spool of flouro was very expensive in my eyes. I was fishing way more on a budget then. And I would tie my weakest knot (a 7-turn "fisherman's knot") at the leader/hook connection. That way when I snagged a rock i would only lose the hook. And frankly I feel I should do that when using an FG knot. Last weekend I hooked the bottom with a very long FG knot and a crimped on hook to my 80# leader on 40# braid. Well thankfully the hook bent before the braid broke. But had it been an Alberto that would definitely have been the failure point.
Agree. Don't need to crimp 80 to make a loop. Knot choice will allow you to select a breaking strength. A perfection loop will give you 60% or a bit more, and if you want to get into the 90s, a Kreh Nonslip loop or a San Diego that is not cinched all the way to the hook (thanks to Mark T for this tip). I quit on crimping mono awhile back. I don't go over 80 on leader nowadays, and feel pretty comfortable knotting mono even at 120.
Back to the braid/mono: The Alberto/RP mono tag needs to be trimmed closer than most folk seem to be willing to go. If this knot does slip, more tag gets exposed, so there is no point in leaving a little extra for safety. Also snug it with a sudden snap/ jerk, so that it does not finish seating while you are fishing it, exposing more tag. Casts fine for me off the spool, but I am not thumbing the spool when the knot is going out.
Quote from: alantani on August 01, 2024, 03:02:19 PMQuote from: jurelometer on July 31, 2024, 06:34:47 PMI don't know why the RP (AKA, Alberto, John Collins) knot is not getting more love here, especially for a quick tie.
-J
for me, the issue is casting. with the RP/collins/alberto knots, the tag end of the mono will cut your fingers with 10 yards of fluoro on a cast. for bass guys, the tag under a load can pop out the ceramic insert of the line leveler. with the topy pena, the mono or fluoro tag causes problems on the return. less trouble tearing up my fingers.
Here is 65 lb braid to 60 lb mono RP knot after a bunch of fish. I just tried to cut myself with it but couldn't get a scratch. And it runs right through size 6 tip and size 7 runners under load in both directions. But I will concede that I would be less enthused casting this knot past my thumb on the spool or through one of those bass style ceramic levelwind inserts, especially with thicker leader. At that point, maybe wished I had spent more time getting comfortable with the FG style.
The modified Peña is so knobby that it is unsuitable for casting with smaller guides, although I found it possible but a bit unpleasant with the larger guide sizes found on the type of rods that would typically be used for casting irons on a long ranger.
You can also put a spot of flex UV to smooth out the tag end of the RP (I like Loon Knot Sense), but as a minimalist, I don't bother.
I would argue that as the line size and rod guide size increases, the drawbacks of the modified Peña decreases. And vice-versa.
-J