Nobody ever taught me to use a baitcaster. A few years ago I was fully team spinner. I expressed an interest in learning, asked about decent cheap ones to play with, and Keith (RIP to true legend) sent me a few.
I just kinda started playing with them. I figured I'd eventually seek out some technical instruction.
I've never been one for tutorial videos on YouTube. I just don't have the attention span for 78 reminders to "like, share, and subscribe!" Peppered in amongst a bunch of banter that sounds a lot like self promotion and uselessly flashy graphics. And I can't tell you the last time I sat in front of a screen to watch someone else fish. Like I literally cannot think of a single instance I've ever done it, besides a few unpleasant instances where someone basically wouldn't take no for an answer. So yeah, I'm entirely self taught. For better or worse.
So I was looking at building a new surf casting rod. I usually just use standard Fuji DPS seats for those but I started thinking hey people like these palm swell seats. Maybe I should look at one. Then as I'm looking a realize I have no idea how you'd hold this thing. "It's more comfy palming the reel." Ok I've definitely heard the term "palming a reel" before I don't live under a rock. But I've never bothered to look up what the heck it means. I guess that had to change. Lots of self-reflection considering it's about fishing.
Well I've never held a reel like that. To me, 'trigger seat' meant hold the thing that looks like a trigger, like it's a trigger. According to the thing I read that's a sure fire way to look like a noob.
So, as we know, "wrong" is relative. So you can say I've been doing it 'relatively wrong' this whole time. Whatever, I have fun and even catch a few fish. But I can't picture how these other grips would be comfortable. I guess I gotta try it out now.
I hope someone feels better about their own intellect after reading that.
Not to confund the situation further Jason, until Jurelometer showed me I did not realize that you can also have/build "trigger" style seats that are not meant to be engaged with the index (trigger) finger and instead place it further back on the handle behind the reel to provide support. The idea makes sense, especially if you are really trying to boom a cast (I have not actually laid hands on one yet; this was a discussion topic on the weekly Zoom call). - john
Quote from: Brewcrafter on July 18, 2024, 09:15:30 PMNot to confund the situation further Jason, until Jurelometer showed me I did not realize that you can also have/build "trigger" style seats that are not meant to be engaged with the index (trigger) finger and instead place it further back on the handle behind the reel to provide support. The idea makes sense, especially if you are really trying to boom a cast (I have not actually laid hands on one yet; this was a discussion topic on the weekly Zoom call). - john
The standard trigger reel seat always seems to have the trigger in the wrong spot. Especially with a low profile reel.
With a palming seat, the more rearward trigger actually makes palming (cupping) the reel by the non-handle sideplate more comfortable. Working a lure while palming is so pleasant... well you spinner guys should just give it a try :)
When casting with the standard trigger seat , you need to shift your hand a bit after depressing the thumb bar and stretch forward quite a bit to reach the trigger . With the palming seat trigger, just slide your hand down from palming, one or two fingers left on the trigger depending on your preference and huck away! The trigger location is perfect.
My experience is with larger saltwater low profiles- Dunno for the freshwater outfits. They do make more mini-sized palming seats, but I suspect it may not matter so much as the reel gets smaller and/or rounder.
Here is an example of palming and my typical casting position with a palming seat:
-J
Here is the same hand position for casting with the same reel on a standard trigger seat. Notice the stretch. Those triggers built into the reel clamp are even farther forward...
Second photo- palming top, standard trigger bottom.
-J
Trigger grip up to like 400 size baitcaster, palming grip anything larger.
Also the trigger on a trigger grip is for your middle finger, unless you have the world's longest thumb, my 2c anyway :)
Quote from: boon on July 19, 2024, 01:22:44 AMTrigger grip up to like 400 size baitcaster, palming grip anything larger.
Also the trigger on a trigger grip is for your middle finger, unless you have the world's longest thumb, my 2c anyway :)
I have seen some folk do this, but the problem is that the reel gets in the way of getting a good grip on the rod with the first two fingers. Plus you lose some range of wrist motion. I like to have my hand completely behind the reel in order to get a full grip on the rod. And I don't mind thumbing from the back of the spool, since it is round anyways :).
That is how we all learned to cast conventional reels where I grew up. But this was also with saltwater reels on 7 foot plus rods. I can get two fingers on a palm trigger, but it is quite a stretch to get even one on a standard trigger.
Perhaps it has something to do with reel size and shape, or maybe just how we learned...
-J
I'm all thumbs. Probably no world record. But maybe top 100? 8)
250 Calcutta and a Cortez jigmaster for reference.
I have never had trouble reaching any spool. Bottom pic is with my hand in front of the trigger. Even with no levelwind I couldn't touch the spool.
I usually move my hand to the foregrip after casting. Again, just kinda made it up as I went.
I grew up fishing with large strong tackle and then also became part of a fairly closely knit group that fished in a particular manner. Anyone who wanted to do things differently was frowned upon, often for good reason in our eyes. (that is another story) So I had fairly limited exposure to other ways of doing the same thing. ;)
In an international context S.A. was a very isolated place with little exposure to outside influences.
Then came 2001 when our internet became good enough for us to see decent Youtube videos and for me to get connected to Bloody decks and one or two other fishing related forums.
Here fishing was never the same again, note, I did not say it became better!
Only then did I realise and understand that there were different ways to catch a fish or enjoy the sport. I read terms that were totally alien to me and often asked myself why would you want to do this in such a manner when the other ways known to me were proven to be far superior.
Just one story to illustrate:-
One guy who was a bit of an intellectual and an anesthetist went for a visit to New Zealand, probably very early 1990's and brought two 9'6" green graphite rods back with him and came to fish at a favorite shore location. The first time he brought those rods they drew much attention, rods were black or brown, where does this green come from? These rods were much thinner in diameter and much lighter, surely they were not strong enough? Could they cast properly? So the guy got ragged quite a lot in good natured fun, but he was also quite sensitive to that. I now understand he did not really enjoy the teasing.
Those rods were perfectly strong enough to pull and land Yellowtail from shore, but when fishing amongst others they caused an issue because they were not as powerful when compared to what the others were using. The strategy was alway to hook a fish, pull it as strongly as you reasonably could and get it out the water as fast as possible to be able to cast again at the shoal and to make way for another angler to get his fish out the water.
So when the weaker green rods had a fish on, it took longer than the others to subdue the fish and get it out the water, and the angler sometimes also lost control of the hooked fish resulting in crossed lines etc.
So there were good reasons why others were probably justified with their complaints about the different equipment.
Eventually the guy went away and bought a boat.
Now I also use much lighter equipment out of necessity and I do not seem to have the same problems that the the guy mentioned above had. There is also now a huge variety of different types of tackle in use, this cause much difficulty for us older guys used to fishing in a particular manner, but times have changed.
This long story brings me to saying that I never knew what a baitcasting rod was pre 2001. I now love fishing in a different way and experimenting, but will avoid doing it where it negatively affects others fishing. I one day took a very light baitcaster with a light Abbu reel and 20lb line on a boat and caught the only 5 Yellowtail onboard for the day. :d
When it comes to casting, or holding your rod/reel differently it usually takes a day or two to persevere and and to learn if it works for you or not!
Low profile reels were invented by Lew Childre specifically to be easier to palm. Early examples were the Ryobi Speed Spool and Shimano Bantam. Being low profile makes the reel tuck into the palm where it is easier and more comfortable to hold. The lower the profile the more comfortable it is. By necessity, when palming the reel you are also palming the reel seat. So, the most comfortable reel seat will be the thinnest reel seat. This why I build my rods without a reel seat at all. The only thing between the reel stand and rod blank is a thin cushion.
Before fishermen decided it is best to have the rod blank extend all the way to the butt cap, there were the drop-down type of reel seat. Like these things. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/326168101363)
The section the reel sits on is thin. The drop-down lowers the center of gravity so the rod and reel have less tendency to want to twist. Most had the handle canted down at an angle to minimize wrist strain. Then, there was the trigger. Fishermen were just as confused by the trigger then as they are now.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 19, 2024, 04:46:34 AMI'm all thumbs. Probably no world record. But maybe top 100? 8)
250 Calcutta and a Cortez jigmaster for reference.
I have never had trouble reaching any spool. Bottom pic is with my hand in front of the trigger. Even with no levelwind I couldn't touch the spool.
I usually move my hand to the foregrip after casting. Again, just kinda made it up as I went.
It is not an issue of reach. Look at how much farther your hand is open and how much more open the minimum wrist angle is in your casting grip compared to mine. You are pivoting the pinky side of your hand downward in order to be able to thumb the top of the spool, which means that your grip is no longer parallel to the shaft that you are holding. I understand that others might like this style, but I fail to see a mechanical advantage. Maybe to minimize any twist for short casts where accuracy is important?
-J
I had never seen the trigger grips on surf rods. But then again like Cor I grew up isolated in S. Africa, where we made it up as we went along.. probably the only place in the world that still fishes centrepin reels in the surf, see the KP Reels..
https://www.kpreels.co.za/
I never got into these but my brother could fish them just like ringing a bell..
We fished Penns and Abu 7000s on standard reelseats and I didn't notice a problem.. also used a grip where the long part of the grip was ahead of the reelseat, so the left hand was used for spool/casting control. Not sure I could do it today, out of practice.
the trigger grips on light baitcast finesse rods these days, are a kind of palming grip I believe. For me they work very well even with old Ambassadeurs, as jlureometer says, working a lure with the palmed reel is so much better than any other grip and orders of magnitude better than with a spinning reel.
Example Abu Zoom Safari modern rod as in pic below.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 19, 2024, 07:11:13 PMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 19, 2024, 04:46:34 AMI'm all thumbs. Probably no world record. But maybe top 100? 8)
250 Calcutta and a Cortez jigmaster for reference.
I have never had trouble reaching any spool. Bottom pic is with my hand in front of the trigger. Even with no levelwind I couldn't touch the spool.
I usually move my hand to the foregrip after casting. Again, just kinda made it up as I went.
It is not an issue of reach. Look at how much farther your hand is open and how much more open the minimum wrist angle is in your casting grip compared to mine. You are pivoting the pinky side of your hand downward in order to be able to thumb the top of the spool, which means that your grip is no longer parallel to the shaft that you are holding. I understand that others might like this style, but I fail to see a mechanical advantage. Maybe to minimize any twist for short casts where accuracy is important?
-J
Just thought of another way to describe this. Think about how you hold the handle in any sport where you are swinging a shaft. The thumb position varies a bit, but the rest is the same. This is how I am gripping the rod with top and bottom hands.
I could not imagine trying swing a baseball bat with my top hand cocked.
I'm going to see if I can find some tournament plug casting accuracy demos. Maybe crowding the reel shows up there...
——-
Regarding those old school combo reel seat/handles: they only really work for one hand casting rods. I always thought it was simply a cheaper way to build a rod, as opposed to better. And there is such a thing as the spool being too low for easy thumbing.
The palming trigger actually cups the end of your palm while you are palming (cupping) the reel. I think this is where the extra comfort and control comes from. While I like no reel seat at all (deckhand grip) for casting larger conventional reels, I greatly prefer the palming seat for larger low profiles.
-j
To be fair my hand was cocked at a weird angle so you could see the position relative to the trigger, while holding a rod in The garage.
I don't hold it like that while fishing.
With a two-handed rod, I think of the top/right hand as a moving fulcrum. The power is in the bottom/left hand as it pulls against the fulcrum.
Quote from: jurelometer on July 20, 2024, 12:13:55 AMJust thought of another way to describe this. Think about how you hold the handle in any sport where you are swinging a shaft. The thumb position varies a bit, but the rest is the same. This is how I am gripping the rod with top and bottom hands.
I could not imagine trying swing a baseball bat with my top hand cocked.
I'm going to see if I can find some tournament plug casting accuracy demos. Maybe crowding the reel shows up there...
——-
Regarding those old school combo reel seat/handles: they only really work for one hand casting rods. I always thought it was simply a cheaper way to build a rod, as opposed to better. And there is such a thing as the spool being too low for easy thumbing.
The palming trigger actually cups the end of your palm while you are palming (cupping) the reel. I think this is where the extra comfort and control comes from. While I like no reel seat at all (deckhand grip) for casting larger conventional reels, I greatly prefer the palming seat for larger low profiles.
-j
Ran into a tournament competitor at the local casting pond. The tournament guys use those vintage pistol grip handle rods for the 1/4, 3/8, and 5/8 oz revolving spool accuracy competitions. Too much backbone is no bueno for competition rods. They also use as light a reel as possible, so stuff like the ABU 2500- don't know if they use BFS parts or not. Some use vintage reels, with the Langley being popular- so Steve is in good company. The tournament caster was surprised to hear that some folks still actually fish with the stuff :)
Thumb with the 5/8 oz, index finger used for "thumbing" on the lighter weights. Hand is back, so that the thumbing can be better controlled.
Here is a photo of some of the rods used at an an actual competition:
(https://www.americancastingassoc.org/photos/images/2007/07-nationals/07-bait-casters.jpg)
Not finding an advantage anywhere for crowding the reel with the top/casting hand.
-J
Pistol grip rods are great for target casting where wrist action is important. For most of us, they are not so good for distance casting though. However, there was a guy doing distance casting demonstrations with short one-handed rods. He would run and spin as he wound up to cast across a stadium. Wish I could find the videos again.
That's an interesting mix of reels in the photo Dave.
Thank you for that update Dave. Interesting food for thought. I've thought about making a pistol grip rod. Maybe I will one day.
All rods that I have built for myself during the past 20 odd years have a pistol grip. They are all in the region of 10 to 12 ft and all are designed for casting with two hands. When someone recently said to me that pistol grip reel seat are going out of vogue, I got quite a shock.
I like the additional support you get while casting and it gives a stronger grip/hold on the rod & reel during the cast. I have seen a rod and reel go flying out of someone's hands during a bad cast and have experienced a few occasions myself where I felt I nearly lost my tackle. This happened when a fish take the lure at your feet going full speed, without you first seeing it and it's aggravated by using braid.
I have three smaller rods that resemble baitcasters, but I can't cast them ;D
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 18, 2024, 09:06:06 PM.....And I can't tell you the last time I sat in front of a screen to watch someone else fish. Like I literally cannot think of a single instance I've ever done it,
I really enjoy seeing someone else fishing, not everybody or every random fishing video on the web, I enjoy seeing videos of guys I know (in person or internet), as seeing videos uploaded by our Boss Alan tani, by Gary the buttman, etc, videos of friends of mine on our local inshore waters from fishing trips I couldnt went to.
Palming the reel also allows you to run the fishing line through your fingers. Alot quicker to feel the bite if fish hit a jig on the fall and essential if fishing in the dark and you cannot see the line.