I recently took apart a 12/0 senator just to oil and re grease everything when I put it back together the gears are grinding and it looks like the main gear is digging into the housing of the reel. this reel didn't have any issues before I took it apart I've try putting it back togeather 4 times now still same issue and I'm pretty confident that I have everything we're it needs to be.can any one Help me fix this issue?
If you have the main gear rubbing the housing , something is out of order. Can you take pictures and post them . It will help to walk you through and get it rite again .
I would say your eccentric jack or pinion yoke are upside down, or back d front, dig up any senator schematics, there all the same n check it out, cheers don.
it almost sounds like you have two drag washers under the main gear. :-\
I can take it apart slowly and add pics along the way I hope this helps
I only have 1 fiber washer under the main gear
Great pictures. Nice progression. Does the main gear and(or)the gear sleeve wobble when it's all together?
Try centering the main gear when tightening the bridge screws. Sometimes there is excessive slop and the gear hits the side plate.
You can go easy on the grease . For some reason the ratch looks upside down to me . All else look good .
The main gear has a little side to side play would that effect it? The sleeve has some up down because of the pin holding it in but no side to side play. How do I center the main gear better I thought when I put those 4 screws in it will sort of center it self because I won't be able to start threading them on if it wasn't center?
What part is the ratch? I can't find it on the schematic.
There occasionally is a bit of play in the holes. I eyeball it from the outside on the open drag side plates.
That part with the # 15 116 . Was the anti reverse working when you reassemble it , they can be a pain at times .
I put the whole reel back together again still grinds in gear and it also grinds in free spool too
Yup the anti reverse works as normal
OK This caught my eye , the screws in the bridge plate are usually flush . Were as the screw that is holding the ratchet is not flush in your picture . The 2 screws with the smooth sides are in the holes with the yoke springs correct . Can /are you loading the drags from the front of the side plate ?
bad gears? but they weren't like this before, right? sort of at a loss for ideas, here. :-\
Grinds in free-spool, too? This is getting interesting...
I'm going to ask a silly question and its probably my fault for missing something in an earlier post. But are you fully reassembling the reel each time and testing it, or just reassembling the side plate? Reason I ask is without having the spool and shaft engaged, the pinion gear will float and that could be the grinding. - john
If it grinds in freespool it isn't the gears. The spool is rubbing something. Joe pointed out the screws. Does the spool have any signs of scratches?
If you put the reel in freespool and then turn the handle does the spool turn? If not, it's definitely not the gears.
Try assembling the reel without the bridge plate or gears. Does it still grind? If so it's the spool rubbing the housing. If no grind, install the bridge plate but no gears. See if it's grinding.
But I'm still looking suspiciously at those protruding screws.
The last two pictures are my side plate , to avoid confusion . Yes it can be frustrating at times, we all have reassemble a reel a dozen times to get it right .
Not an expert by any means, but...
The screws that don't full penetrate the bridge plate suggest that the bridge is not seated flat, and therefore the post and main gear (which are perpendicular to the plate) are not aligned properly in the hole in the side plate. This could be causing the rubbing. Like Alan said, it looks like the main gear is sitting higher than usual above the bridge plate. Could there be an old fiber washer stuck to the bottom of the main gear in addition to the one you installed? A "high" main gear could prevent the bridge plate from getting pulled into place properly by the bridge plate screws.
Quote from: scrinch on September 18, 2024, 05:32:20 PMNot an expert by any means, but...
The screws that don't full penetrate the bridge plate suggest that the bridge is not seated flat, and therefore the post and main gear (which are perpendicular to the plate) are not aligned properly in the hole in the side plate. This could be causing the rubbing. Like Alan said, it looks like the main gear is sitting higher than usual above the bridge plate. Could there be an old fiber washer stuck to the bottom of the main gear in addition to the one you installed? A "high" main gear could prevent the bridge plate from getting pulled into place properly by the bridge plate screws.
Rich is exactly right. Could be the culprit, or part of it.
The big clue to solving this —- since it worked OK before the tear down — it has to do with the reassembly.
Best, Fred
The bridge plate screws can't get any tighter than what I've torque them with and the two screws that arnt threaded all the way are in the holes with the spring. I'll send a picture of the spool. Yes the spool is acting like it's wants to move in free spool when I crank. It acts almost like it catching something. The only thing I've changed about this reel is the fiber washer under the main gear and new drag washers, drag washers isn't the issue but maybe the fiber washer under the main gear is a little bigger than the stock one? But I'll try and see if I can get those screws flush and see what happens.
I don't see any noticeable scratches in the spool
I also tried puting it together with just the side plate only and then with the bridge plate installed and no grinding sounds the spool freely spins. I'm going to see if I can't get those screws flush
Take pictures as you go along , we like pictures . Just do not force anything .
I plan on reassembling and trying again this weekend I got busy
Put it back together still getting sound the reel wins might have to just take it some one
The only thing that seems weird is the opinion gear has playin it when I touch it is that normal?
loose tolerances is what the penn senator line is all about. :-\
When I click on the picture and blow it up , it looks like there is a bushing missing between the gear and sleeve ?
Yeah, what's up with that? The drag washers, especially the metal ones should be fairly tight on the gear sleeve.
Quote from: Bruhhh on September 23, 2024, 01:53:24 AMThe only thing that seems weird is the opinion gear has playin it when I touch it is that normal?
Kinda goes back to my original question - without a spool shaft the pinion gear is going to have plenty of play in it; and that is on top of the fact these reels were built to a whole different set of tolerances "back in the day". - john
That's right. The pinion is floating on the yoke until it engages the spool.
That washer def doesn't look correct. I think someone plugged that in to fill a lost one or something. May be from a 14/0.
I think the next test would be to assemble the reel fully, minus all of the drag disks. Obviously the spool won't turn when you turn the handle. But you can see if it still grinds when you turn the spool.
Is it possible you dropped or otherwise dented the spool or bent the shaft while it was disassembled? That's sounding more and more likely to me if it's still grinding in freespool.
I think I may have found the issue I'm missing part number 9-116 spacing sleeve. Would that be the issue?
I don't see any other part missing than that one. the schematic doesn't call for any bushings between the main gear and sleeve. The reel hasn't been dropped. it was given to me and then shortly after I put in on a table and started cleaning it hasn't left the table.
And about half the time I'm fully puting the real together the other half I'm just spining gear half of the reel trying to figure out what it is. They make the same noise with or without the spool being put on. If part number 9-116 is important I hope it fixes it.
I "think" you may need a collar type spacer as this reel has outside access drags. Part #9 would work on a different gear-side plate with a smaller diameter opening. The "right" part in question would be much larger in diameter and be shaped like a top-hat. Lemme look it up and maybe get the right part#.
Yeah, older reels have #136-116—a "collar washer" and were supposed to also have a #140-116—a felt washer(not really imperative unless you have to have it original).
If I'm right, where to get this part?
I believe I have both the top hat and the felt. I'll check in a few hours.
I just looked at the pictures again . This is strange ,the top keyed washer is flush look with the gear sleeve threads in the first picture . The second picture the drag wheel looks like rubbing the side plate rim , and there is no room for the handle . Like the main gear is sitting on top of the ratchet . Another possible is the drag stack , like a Ear washer is going before a Key washer . I did not see a spacer or spring washer or high hat in the pictures .
lay out the drags and washer in the order you have been dropping the in the cup , and snap a picture
Sorry I put in another washer on top of the drag washers because I got new drag washers and the stack was slight short. The star wheel would make contact with the housing before the drag would be maxed out. So that's why the drag washers look weird it's because there thinner ht100 fiber washers with an extra washer on top of it. But the drag works nicely now. I don't think if there was an issue with the drag washers would cause gear grind I'll try putting it all togeather but without the washers to see.
Also I put them in 10 times now it's fiber, keyed, fiber, eared, fiber. repeat with the last washer being the keyed one it's flush with the main gear cup. Then the washer 8-116 goes on top on them and I added another washer on top of the 8-116 washer to get the max drag out of it without hitting the housing.
You say you got new drags, but no washers?
I would also clean that main gear. Looks like a lot of rust on it.
I guess you are still working on this?
I had a quick re-read and noticed a comment in an earlier reply (#23) where you mention (if I understand correctly) fitting a new fibre washer under the main gear as well as changing some of the drag washers. If that fibre washer is too thick it may well raise the main gear to the point where it rubs where it shouldn't. It might not look different, but...
Try the old washer if you still have it. If that removes the problem, I think we can move ahead.
The boss mentioned that Senators don't have close tolerances, and I've been driven nuts when I took apart two 12/0 and found not every part was interchageable between them (one was several decades older than the other).
Yeah I really hope when you do solve this, you come back and let us know what it was. At 4 pages in, we're all invested.
Even if it was something silly you got wrong, we've all been there. Nobody is judging you.