Hi
I have been watching various you tube videos on servicing reels
I watched one this morning were a Sienna was taken apart and explored
The quality of an older reel is better than a new reel I feel.
The amount of plastic in the Sienna although it had good bearings compared to a Shimano IX 2000 with bushings and a graphite body I would prefer the IX overall
just my opinion :fish
regards
Greg
It is a differing of philosophies in the case of fishing reels.
On a straight quality of materials basis, I, too, believe older is better. If you acquire quality older reels in good condition and are willing to maintain them, they will last a long time and provide a very satisfactory service.
If your feeling is that you want the newest tech and don't feel comfortable with older stuff or are not willing to put in the time for maintenance, then you will go newer and be prepared to buy replacements often. You will get decent service from your gear, at least at the outset.
In buying newer, if your budget only allows lower line stuff, get it, use it 'till it won't work right anymore, then chuck and repeat the process. A lot of it is not built for ongoing maintenance ease (think screw holes in plastic that wear out after a couple of loosenings/tightenings, for one), and replacing an entire reel is often the only way to go.
From a dollars and cents standpoint, you can buy an older high quality reel for about what a low line or average newer reel costs, and for way less than a higher end newer reel. With that older reel, plan on maintenance and maybe some effort to obtain replacement parts, and if you can't/won't do that stuff yourself, paying someone else to do it can change the economies significantly.
I've taken the tack that I like older, am willing to learn to maintain and use older reels properly, and that is the way I want to go. I can hardly tell you much about many newer reels for the simple fact that I am never in the market to get one. I do try to monitor new tech, just to be able to say that I want to be at least a little current, but it is never because I am planning on buying a newer reel.
Not saying I am right and others are wrong-- its just what I like to do.
Frank
Frank has spoken - frankly ;D (like what I did there?). The word that trips everyone up is "better". And how that word is defined. I'm not going to try that.
Older reels were built at a time when the concept of "planned obsolence" didn't really exist. Cigarette lighters were Zippo. Not gonna blame Bic for the disposable culture of lighters and pens (I am looking at a classic Bic Round Stick ballpoint on my workbench right now) but what was...is not anymore. There are countless threads here that delve into the subject, and what a vintage DAM, Mitchell, or Penn would cost in today dollars.
Overall (and this is only my opinion) is the vintage stuff was A: Built to last B: Built to be serviced and maintained. Much like the automobiles of the time. Are great reels being built today? Yes. And technology is better. But, as I have told countless folks, that old (Insert here Mitchell, Abu, DAM, Penn etc) is already old and will long outlive most of what you can purchase new today that you wont be able to get serviced in 3 years. Yeah, I am kicking a well-worn hornets nest on the forum. Not bagging on new stuff; we have great minds in this group and a lot of differing viewpoints that are all valid. That is what makes this group great. - john
I think every reel has something to like about it. Buttttt... Sometimes it's just fast shipping.
For real though there's some great modern reels. And there's some crap old reels. And obviously vice versa.
Roller/ball bearings are often over rated and not only unnecessary but a major cause for failure, such as handle bearings, and more often than not "new and improved" isn't.
If durability is your sole metric of a fishing reel being "better" then yes, a lot of older reels will seem "better".
If trivial things like "performance when used for fishing" are important to you, then the modern reels are generally vastly superior.
Just to clarify....old school Penn reels hold more IGFA world records than all other brands combined
(1) each size Penn SS
(1) each size Penn Magpower
(2) Penn 30 SW
(2) Penn 50SW
Covers 99.9% of anything swimming, thirty years old, and outlive you.
I don't know about it being harder to find parts for an old reels. This is where my gripe with Shimano comes in. Parts for anything more than a few years old can be impossible to find.
I think a reasonable approach is to find what you like through trial and error, then buy a lifetime supply as they come up for cheap on the used market.
One thing about old reels and their materials is that they are HEAVY. Weight matters when you are going to hold it all day.
In addition to what the others have noted, the classic reels were designed for monofilament which needed much more volume for the same line capacity of the same strength when compared to modern braid. The larger the line rating, the more noticeable the difference in size between classic mono vs modern braid reels of equivalent class.
Fish haven't changed, and the basic design of reels hasn't changed much. If you want to fish with 375 yards of 40 lb mono with 12 lbs of drag, there are classics that will do just fine. But it will be on the large side if you load it with 40 lb braid, and if you downsize to a smaller classic with 375 yards of 40 lb braid capacity, it probably won't be strong enough to fish 12 lbs of drag. I still fish some classics with braid, but I am willing to fish the reel at a lower load than the line is capable of.
Agree with Steve; Parts are sort of a tie. The classic reels were repairable, but older parts are becoming more scarce over time. But with new reels, companies no longer are committed to a long window of parts availability.
-J
The mostly "plastic" newer stuff has for me, 3 advantages: price, weight and no corrosion on said plastic parts. That's it.
More weight sucks, but not THAT bad, I'll take it. Corrosion just plain sucks, so I godda check the old stuff and maybe service more often. Price?, hopefully it's like Frank said a wash; old stuff price approximately same as new cheap stuff price, so maybe if you buy alota reels it evens-out.
Old is DEFINITELY better than new. If my wife trades me in for a new plastic fantastic and takes half my rods, reels, boats and guns, well, that will just suck. So, I stand by my statement.
I got 3 words "712" Penn.
Still fishing the old Penn 49's on stripers and blues, some prewar, updated carbon drags, big diameter body 3 1/2 ratio, and cheap and plentiful to buy.
For trolling they mostly live in the rod holders. I'd put in a 5 disk drag if it were available, but the 3's in carbon have been fine.
The new top shelf stuff is fine, but I can buy one Avet or a dozen or 2 of the 49's for the same cake. Difference in landed fish for me. Zero.
I am for enjoying the battle, so not having 15:1 ratio with mucho BBs isn't a deal breaker for me :fish
Opinion on new reels part 2
I have cleaned and greased the shimano sienna and the fin nor fp2000
Apart from losing a component of the fun nor it is better built than the shimano
Shimano has 4 bb but the plastic is very tinny and you can see they are mass produced
Fin nor has 2 bb , the plastic is thicker and seems better built
It actually looks like a little Chinese penn 😁
Quote from: jgp12000 on December 06, 2024, 12:31:39 AMI got 3 words "712" Penn.
would it handle 27 pound chinook in the river?
Quote from: pointbob on December 07, 2024, 01:26:55 AMQuote from: jgp12000 on December 06, 2024, 12:31:39 AMI got 3 words "712" Penn.
would it handle 27 pound chinook in the river?
I would think it would.
However, I think a better reel for large Salmon in current would be a 710.
Best, Fred
Depends on how you play 'em. I got exactly that, once. A somewhat dark male, much of the fight probably gone out of him, quite a ways up the river. 10lb. Test on an MG 300, it mostly took patience and constant drag adjustment. I say patience, cause I had to not act on the advice and complaints of all the 1/2 drunk idiots around me. Tasted great smoked-up, though.
I have had 3lb bass fight harder than 8lbers,I once read the 3-lbers are the most aggressive size, maybe younger less picky?
My experience has shown that middle of the line sizes in most species fight much more aggressively than the big Bertha's. The big Mamas are heavier & stronger and just pull harder. They seem to tire out a little quicker, at least in freshwater species anyway.
Quote from: pointbob on December 07, 2024, 01:26:55 AMQuote from: jgp12000 on December 06, 2024, 12:31:39 AMI got 3 words "712" Penn.
would it handle 27 pound chinook in the river?
My first "big" fish was a 33lb striped bass taken from an inlet with very heavy current. I was using a 712 with 10 or 12 mono. Had plenty of room to follow it along the sandy beach and eventually landed it. So YES. ;D
PS: Probably my greatest fishing memory, I was only a teen at the time. :fish
Back in the early 70s I fished sea run steelhead and coho salmon with a Dam Quick 330. Thought it was the greatest reel ever. Now when I try it I wonder how I fished that reel all day. Strong, a bit heavy and built 'peasant proof' but certainly not the balance and feel of todays reels.
Quote from: Lunker Larry on December 07, 2024, 07:47:05 PMBack in the early 70s I fished sea run steelhead and coho salmon with a Dam Quick 330. Thought it was the greatest reel ever. Now when I try it I wonder how I fished that reel all day. Strong, a bit heavy and built 'peasant proof' but certainly not the balance and feel of todays reels.
I agree, Larry, I've always felt that, even though that variation of Dam Quick reels are well built with quality materials & parts, they are, other than the original 265 Microlites, unbalanced, sort of awkward to fish and have a tendency to wear you out after a full day of casting or fishing. I don't notice that fishing the fulcrum drag Cardinal line all daylong, though.
Crazy theory I'm gonna throw out there. Parasites probably make a fish not as strong as a fish without them. A huge fish has been around longer and more likely to have encountered a few.
Also I'm not even 40 yet and I'll just say it. 25 year old me could beat my current ####. Nothing about my age and treachery could touch my former athleticism. Especially when you add in all the cumulative injury. Dunno if that happens to fish too.
I'm rambling now but I think I've made my point.
I've seen seatrout that looked like they were on palliative care. Big suckers. They stay in the shallows, probably because if they went deeper they'd be eaten by sharks.
Anadromous salmonids can get pretty beat-up and tired-out heading upstream to the spawning grounds. Part of that is their kidneys start to fail moving from saltwater into freshwater. The above mentioned Fall-run Chinook was caught well past the "wild and scenic" section of the Rogue River(maybe 75 miles up?)where there are some serious "chutes" and several low waterfall areas. Anisaki nematodes are a pretty common parasitic worm in Pacific Coast fish, including Salmonids. If they weaken the fish, the fish is more likely to fall prey to a warm blooded mammal such as a seal. The final stage in the life cycle of this parasite can then be completed.
Wasn't this thread about old vs new?
"What time is it " & I will tell you how to build a watch... ::) Go Dawgs !!!
Wasn't this thread about old vs new?
[/quote]
yes it was but it branched off when the Penn 712 or 710 discussion started ,then the salmon discussion started from that
fishing discussions in anyway , shape or form are good
Just like rifle calibre comparison :d
but that's another discussion I won't get into ;D
Cheers
Greg from Aus
A few days ago I just wanted to know how much propane bottles were pre-covid & wasn't reel specific, it snowballed, funnie stuff :ct
water cooler talk
Quote from: jgp12000 on December 08, 2024, 07:37:41 PMA few days ago I just wanted to know how much propane bottles were pre-covid & wasn't reel specific, it snowballed, funnie stuff :ct
water cooler talk
Key word "snowballed"
As a kid, whenever we had a snowstorm, me and a few friends would roll a huge snowball about 5' diameter, until we could no longer roll it. Now that I'm "older", I would never consider doing such a thing. In this case "older" isn't better.
Loving this thread !!
I had a coworker that was a self proclaimed "walking encyclopedia" & he was a smart man. He would go from one story to the next without taking a breath.I would like to get him started up & when Someone innocently walked up,I would slip away & then they were stuck for 30+ minutes ;D
As much as I love my 712, it is now officially a shelfy. My newer spinners are far better balanced, lighter, better drags, and I won't go back to a auto-only bail with spring that breaks so often. But, other than that, it is bullet-proof and will certainly outlive me! ::)
Quote from: foakes on December 07, 2024, 01:32:34 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 07, 2024, 01:26:55 AMQuote from: jgp12000 on December 06, 2024, 12:31:39 AMI got 3 words "712" Penn.
would it handle 27 pound chinook in the river?
I would think it would.
However, I think a better reel for large Salmon in current would be a 710.
Best, Fred
fair enough but 710 is a 16oz reel...the 722 is 9 oz....just saying all day on the river easier o nthe 722 :) thank you
Quote from: pointbob on December 09, 2024, 02:49:05 AMQuote from: foakes on December 07, 2024, 01:32:34 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 07, 2024, 01:26:55 AMfair enough but 710 is a 16oz reel...the 722 is 9 oz....just saying all day on the river easier o nthe 722 :) thank you
It's a shame, though, that Penn cut corners on the 720s & 722s when they decided not to make them worm gear driven to cheapen them.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on December 09, 2024, 05:35:36 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 09, 2024, 02:49:05 AMQuote from: foakes on December 07, 2024, 01:32:34 AMQuote from: pointbob on December 07, 2024, 01:26:55 AMfair enough but 710 is a 16oz reel...the 722 is 9 oz....just saying all day on the river easier o nthe 722 :) thank you
It's a shame, though, that Penn cut corners on the 720s & 722s when they decided not to make them worm gear driven to cheapen them.
Oh really? DO you know if they did that with the 712z? it's about 12oz i think
The 712 & 712Z are worm gear driven.
The 720, 720Z, 722 & 722Z are the only Penn models from that era's lines that aren't worm gear driven.
It wouldn't have made sense to make the 720s & 722s as robust as the greenies, they were intended as a cheaper alternative. But I still loved my little 720 just as much, both model lines were quality gear.
I feel like the old vs new debate is very dependent on the reel in question. A lot of the old stuff we like to use was high end 30+ years ago. Take for instance the Zebco Cardinal 3, it was $79.99 back in '76, or $450 today adjusted for inflation. That is one of many examples. That reel was designed to last, much like higher end stuff of today. When I browse the Japanese Auction sites, there are plenty of reels like the Daiwa Millionaire CV-Z platform, Shimano Calcutta Conquest, etc that are now well over 20 years old in great shape, just ready to land the big one. Those reels are still made, and run about $600 and $500 respectively. In the case of the Calcutta Conquest, the design has been revised/updated over 4 generations, but parts are still available for the earlier gens. The Calcutta Conquest dates back to 2001 and the Millionaire CV-Z platform to 1998. The bargain stuff wasn't designed to last, it was designed to be replaced. Most of those aren't even worth the time and money to service unless it holds sentimental value to somebody, then there is the challenge of obtaining parts.