I got started on my 501. It now has a fine threaded SS sleeve and star from Cortez-Conversions and Bryan's 5+1 fit just fine with the original spring washer on top of the stack. The original handle was too thin to cinch down tightly so I put on a 24-56 from my 505 that still needs a new gear sleeve.
I'm wondering why this reel had a thin Belleville washer between the spacing sleeve and the star but my other Jigmasters do not? It seems like a smooth idea and doesn't take much room. My 113H has one there and my 114H has a thick one between the star and the spacing sleeve and another thinner one between the star and the handle.
Where can I find the thin washers for my other JMs?
i wouldn't worry about the lack of a belleville washer. i never felt like they added that much to the performance of the reel. mostly it just gets the drag stack to be the proper height. and just as often as not, there is not enough room for the belleville. so if the reels work fine, i would leave them be. :-\
You might get some lower-end fine tuning of the drag pressure with a wave-spring washer there and the 98-505 fine thread gear sleeve. A few times I've experienced the star loosening as drag is pulled-out on Penn reels, a properly placed wave-spring might prevent this.
Go to Mysticpennparts, conventional reels, look for part# 8-60.
Edit for proper terminology...I don't like trying to spell the English language, so sometimes I give-up and spell words like they sound. However, the right terminology as per Dave's post, is always best.
TLDR: Agree with Alan and Greg - not a big deal. Thin flat SS washers are widely available. I get mine from McMaster Carr in the USA.
But as reelheads, I think we should have an understanding of the engineering principles involved.
Just to be sure that we are on the same page for terminology- the wavy springs are wave springs and the cup shaped springs are Bellevilles. Both serve the same purpose in the drag stack - to require more rotation of the star for the same amount of clamping force on the drag. Some folk might find this useful to get a slower ramp-up at lower drag settings- better fine tuning, and help to hold very light drag settings in place. The wave springs in drag stacks are typically not very strong, so they flatten out under fairly light drag settings. They only function as a spacer at this point, just as Alan has described. Modern reels that support higher drag settings tend to use stronger Bellevilles that will still have some spring in them at higher clamping loads.
Back in the day of fishing lighter mono with the old style drag washers that were kind of grabby, it was sometimes useful to start with a very low drag settings in in some circumstances- sort of like the bait-runner feature on some spinning reels, and the wave springs might have helped a bit. Not so much nowadays.
I think that in most cases on these classic Penn stacks, folk are just using whatever is handy as spacers so that the star tightening range is at the right height on the gear sleeve. The 100% proper fix is to use the right height spacer and maybe a flat washer or two. Springs should be used when you need a spring, and it should be the right tension and travel for the job. Some of reelsmiths here will have a variety of spacers of different height and grind them down for a perfect fit, and then you can add a the exact right set of Bellevilles to be able to micro tune your drag setting in your preferred range.
But it isn't really that important on a star drag unless you fish very light drag or think that reliably moving your drag between 4.2 and 4.3 lbs will actually help you catch more fish. As for me, meh.... Just want to make sure that the star fits on top and doesn't bottom out.
But once you get to lever drags, Belleville strength and stack orientation will make a big difference, as you are only working with the shorter height travel distance built into the cam.
-J
If you wanna use them, how many do ya need? I have several. 1-new(black one), 1-slightly used(black one), 1-used(silver one), a flat delrin washer that I like to use on the top of the drag stack(inside the reel) and higher-pressure bel-vil(I hate using ridiculously hard to spell words) that would go on top of the last keyed washer in the drag stack like the delrin. The last one produces an even circumference of pressure.
Thanks. I think I get it. Inside the pictured 501 on top of the drag stack's eared washer, is a rather heavy belleville washer. Isn't that part #8-60? I can't find the part number for the thin wavy washer outside the reel, between the spacer and the star. What confused me is that a washer that sits between the spacer and star is referred to as placed in/on the drag stack?
Quote from: Classtime on December 26, 2024, 09:07:05 PMThanks. I think I get it. Inside the pictured 501 on top of the drag stack's eared washer, is a rather heavy belleville washer. Isn't that part #8-60? I can't find the part number for the thin wavy washer outside the reel, between the spacer and the star. What confused me is that a washer that sits between the spacer and star is referred to as placed in/on the drag stack?
[Update: corrections in blue- my thanks to Lee]
I don't think that Penn put Bellevilles in the high speed Jigmaster stack (15-505) . 8-60 is a wave spring for the standard Jigmaster. It looks like Mystic has mislabeled it as a Belleville, but if you look at the Mystic photo, it is clearly a wave spring. The stock wave springs are pretty weak, so as mentioned before, they end up working as a spacer at anything but the very lightest drag settings.
"in" vs. "on" the drag stack is just some imprecise terminology. Any spring washers have to be near the top of the stack, above any drag washers.
Since they do not have as much surface contact area as a flat washer, I don't see how bellevilles are particularly useful for clamping load distribution. Some other star drag reels use a special domed, large diameter washer with a large contact area to the top metal drag washer for this purpose, but I don't think these are stock on a Jigmaster.
Regarding Delrin toward the top of the stack: Delrin starts getting squishy around 180F, so I am personally not a fan, but many folk here are. A stainless spacing washer should not provide a sliding surface since it is metal on metal, but by replacing with Delrin with a lower coefficient of friction against steel than carbon fiber causes it to turn into an extra drag washer. Makes the stack fell smoother, but it will work against you if it gets hot enough, and it will be the first to heat up. Since it has the lowest COF, it will be doing most of the slipping.
Not worth overthinking too much. Just mess around with spacer (9-60) height and/or add/delete flat washers /wave spring until you can go from zero to max drag plus a bit without the star making contact with the handle arm or sideplate.
-J
The high speed Jigmaster 505/506 uses a Belleville washer, part # 18-505.
Quote from: Keta on December 27, 2024, 02:52:04 AMThe high speed Jigmaster 505/506 uses a Belleville washer, part # 18-505.
Ooh, you are right! And it is a real Belleville, even if Mystic calls it a "Beveled" washer. That must be what the OP was referring to.
Seems kinda strange, since these models come with the fine thread gear sleeves. I think that the rest of my comments still hold. I updated my previous post.
Thanks!
-J
I thought the wavy washer was to help with the drag not backing off.
I think that's also one of it's functions.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 27, 2024, 04:16:51 AMI think that the rest of my comments still hold.
Thanks!
-J
Yup.
Digression: It makes me nervous depending only on two little clamp screws on deckhand style rods. I've never caught a yellowtail, but they are related to our reef donkeys, and no way I'd pull on a forty lb. AJ with just clamp screws. Back to originally shedyooled feature. I'd at least wrap the feet in like OG OC did on his 'boo rods.
I am no fan of "deckhand" rods but a lot of fish have been caught on them.
No question. I thought of doing one by greasing the feet against corrosion, wrapping with nylon cord, and putting heat shrink over it, which would take the same energy as putting on a seat. I get the concept of adjusting to your balance spot, tho.
Now I gotta go see what my 505's have vs. 5OO's....
I've been fishing deck hand rods my whole life, never had a failure Caught all kinds of fish. For 40lb line and up use a reel seat, below that if properly tightened they work fine
Aye. The schematic of the 501 shows an 8-60 where my 501 has a 18-505. My 501 that began this thread has a #18-505 on top of the drag stack inside the reel and a #8-60 outside the reel between the spacing sleeve and the star.
(My first Jigmaster was on a solid glass rod with a reel seat and all the kool kids had cork tape or tuna cord deckhand rods.)
Quote from: MarkT on December 27, 2024, 06:54:01 AMI thought the wavy washer was to help with the drag not backing off.
Not if you are using anything but the lightest drag settings. I know that this seems a bit counter-intuitive, but it is friction on the thread faces that holds them tight, and a spring does not increase the friction from the same clamping load. It doesn't magically multiply the load, it simply compresses while transferring the load. Put some springs under your shoes, stand on a scale, and you will still weigh the same as with the springs in you hands.
A spring only helps if you are barely just past the borderline of applying any clamping load. The spring load requires more rotational travel of the star to undo the same clamping load. It also helps if the load is so light that backlash (i.e., backplay from the gaps between the thread faces) comes into play.
This is the same principle behind why those "lock" washers (those round spring washers with a slit in them that we see at the hardware store) don't really "lock" a nut securely. Any spring travel not removed from tightening will eventually cause the clamping load to decrease as the spring fatigues over time. This is also why you will not find lock washers on your car wheel lug nuts, or any other serious piece of machinery where parts need to stay connected with anything but very light clamping loads.
-J