Hello All, first post here.
Looking for advice on what Penn reels to pair with a couple old bamboo rods from the 1930's.
A little background: several years ago my wife and I were in a "junk-tique" shop and I noticed an old long narrow wooden box standing up in a corner. As many of you know, when you are a fisherman everything looks like a potential "find". Sort of like the saying, "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"😊. When I inquired about the box the lady working in the shop had no idea what it contained so we pulled the nails out and found two pristine heavyweight bamboo rods from 1938 still in their protective socks. She said, " you can have them for fifty bucks". It sounded like a reasonable price so I purchased them even though I had no immediate use for them.
Fast forward several years: My wife and I now live in mid coast Maine and I have this idea to "go retro" and fish with these Ernest Hemingway era rods. I would like to pair them with Penn reels from the same era so I am looking for some advice on the appropriate size and model Penn reels. I am thinking of early Senator reels which I have discovered came out at about the same time as the rods.
The Rods: quite heavy weight with an unusual line guide configuration. There are TWO garnet line guides at about mid length and a rotating tip top. The handle separates from the one piece bamboo portion. Some pictures:
6E25CFA4-3845-4725-BD70-0144C3FB8608.jpeg7E949CEE-1DD2-47C4-9799-8D3509FF9E06.jpegE8C6A82A-9EB9-4470-BAC6-8B36F3CCCC6C.jpeg9CE9BEA2-1EC8-4939-B2B9-7DF43198697E.jpegD68BC584-474B-40E3-9E48-D97BC3DA4B3F.jpeg2AFA23AC-7394-47D4-AEBF-B4180CC4D6D1.jpegFD9EA650-9C2F-4799-A0D8-C1B5135E6145.jpeg0D8C11D6-7623-4FA9-9F0E-9C540924AB89.jpeg
Yikes! Somehow I posted images twice on the last post...will need to work on that🫤
Just a couple more images:
Welcome to the site!
Way cool! Great find for $50. Some serious tackle history there.
Wonder if $250 was close to the purchase/shipping price in 1938 during the depression era? Too ignorant to to give advice on something like this.
Gfish, thanks for the "welcome", it is much appreciated😊
I have a couple 114H Senator reels. I put one on the rod and they certainly did not look too large so I am thinking about an old Senator that was built in the 30's. I am not sure how difficult they are to find and how expensive they might be but would like to keep rods and reels about the same vintage.
BTW, I will most likely use them on our boat for jigging for cod and halibut as well as other ground fish and maybe a little trolling.
Also, I am not sure about the original purpose of the rod. I am wondering if it was original intended for fishing from the shore since it is called a "heavy bank rod" on the label on the sock. I have read that the unusual back-to-back line guides and rotating tip were intended to allow one to fish from both sides of the rod so that the bamboo would not develop a "set". I wouldn't think this would be necessary for a shore rod but would be a nice feature on a boat rod that was trolled. Hopefully someone knowledgeable about such things will weigh-in on the discussion.
Thanks again for the "welcome"😊35735E08-882C-4A3E-B16A-9AED542DEFBC.jpeg
Welcome, the rod is reversible, if it took a set on one side you could turn it over and use the other $250 was a heck of a lot of money in 1938. I'm sure someone here can provide more information, that's $50 well spent, heck of a find you have there. The 114H reels aren't even close to period correct for those rods.
Re $250, I think that was the value of the contents of the box....72 lbs.
No help on the reels but WOW!!!!
I bought 2- well used Montague wooden rods of lower build quality, probably about the same vintage. Did a father-son bottom fishing trip. The kid had a Long Beach 60 and I had my L.B. Deluxe 300 yd.(double plate rings like a senator). His had the double guides like yours. That well used reel of mine looked right for the rod. Won't use it again because the gear sleeve is ready to collapse where the handle attaches.
An old Senator is the first thing I thought of for yours. Wondering though, what did Shakespeare make in that era for deep sea fishing?
From the looks of them maybe a 4/0 senator. 1938 I think was the first year that made a 4/0, it would be difficult to find one and mucho $ too. Maybe just get a regular 4/0 senator with black side plates, not period correct but probably only something a Penn collector would notice, mechanically they are very similar too
Those are beautiful, with interesting provenance too. You did well. I think the 114 is much too large for the intended use though. A Penn or Ocean City in a 200 yard size (under the old system) might be more appropriate. There is a Penn Seaford with the original period-correct linen line for sale on ebay now.
What about a long beach? Easy to find and roughly unchanged since the right era. I got a few clean oldies.
Welcome! And you made a great buy!
Wow, $250 in 1938 !!
There are collectors out there that would pay a kings ransom for these pristene rods.
:) Nice score on that rod . Both are 1162 ? Were did you find this information ?
It is going to be hard to find :Bamboo boat rod , bank rod and surf rod information . A Lot of those site are gone now . Hunt around at this site .
https://antiquerodandreels.com/rodmanufacturers
Click on library drop down box for more information
Thank you all for your thoughts on pairing a reel to the old bamboo rods. I have not yet figured out how to respond to each of you individually so will just respond to all of you in this one post.
Swami805- yes, 114H not even close to period correct for the rod but I may just repair the two that I have and try them for a while until I figure out which reel to pair with the rods.
Gfish- I am not sure what Shakespeare made for the rods. I tried to find out but was unable to find any information. Whatever it was the reel foot must have been very thin to be able to fit under the hood of the tightening collar. It looks like with modern rods there is at least an eighth of on inch clearance to accommodate the reel foot. On the bamboo rods there is barely half this. I am not exactly sure how to get around this yet. Any advice?
JasonGotaProblem- the Long Beach is a really good option. It looks like there are plenty of them out there and all, with there individual posts, at least look like they are period correct. They may be a bit small though.
OldmanJoe- yes, both rods are 1162's. The information is on the label on the protective sock. The label is in amazingly good shape for being nearly 100 years old! I will include a photo of the label. Thank you for the link to the antique rod website; unfortunately there were no 1162's.
Bottom Line: I am not sure what I am going to do so I think I will just repair the two 114H's that I have and watch for some nice, old 113's or 114's that have individual posts so they look period correct.
Thank you all again for your help. Any suggestions are always appreciated!
Fen
Thank you, I looked at the Jigmaster as well. I think it, and the Long Beach are very close to what I need, but I think overall a Senator best suites the rods. It may not come across in the photos but the old bamboo rods are really stout; at their base they are nearly an inch in diameter and the rods are 7-1/2 feet long. I don't think the 114's look out of place on these tree trunks😊. Also, I will be bottom fishing in an area where there are some large halibut so I would like to have something that could handle something pretty big if I am lucky enough to latch onto one. Also, I plan on using braided Dacron( I know, I know, it's old school) so I need the added reel capacity of the 114's. Also, I think, any post-frame Senator model will look period correct.
So, after everyone's feedback, I guess my question for the group has now become: Is there a post-frame model Penn Senator reel that really stands out as being an excellent reel?
Thanks!
Fen
Those rods belong in a museum or something, not on a fishing boat. I would not have much confidence in 90 year old bamboo holding up to heavy Dacron on a big fish or hanging a rock on the bottom and having to break your line. Those rods should be used with a linen line. mono, Dacron and the like weren't invented yet. Beautiful display pieces but not up to using modern gear
Let me be a little more specific with my question. Is there a Senator model 114 or 114H that has the following characteristics:
-a post frame(I think it makes the reel look more "period correct")
-black side plates(not essential but I think black side plates makes it appear like an early model)
-there is a reasonable number available so that there is a good chance of finding one in nice shape.
-has parts and upgrades available
I think that about covers it😊
Thanks again!
Fen
If you find one you like(I'd try eBay), go to mysticparts.com there you can see which replacement parts are available. For example, the 114 Senator has spool bushings(they refer to them as "bearings"), but no replacements available. Something like that I or others here may have(though not new). A 114HL would be best to upgrade as far as the 6/0 Senators go.
I have a Senator 114HLW with the 1/2 frame for sale relatively inexpensive. It will be in the "fishing tackle for sale" section, near the bottom of the main page.
Quote from: Swami805 on January 05, 2025, 05:24:15 PMThose rods belong in a museum or something, not on a fishing boat. I would not have much confidence in 90 year old bamboo holding up to heavy Dacron on a big fish or hanging a rock on the bottom and having to break your line. Those rods should be used with a linen line. mono, Dacron and the like weren't invented yet. Beautiful display pieces but not up to using modern gear
Swami805, Thank you for your comments, they are much appreciated. I agree with you, the rods are really fine specimens of the way things used to be. I feel lucky to have found them. I have not done anything yet to clean them up but I believe they will look almost new once I have.
When I first acquired them I checked into their MONETARY value and I was surprised to find out that they they really are not worth much. One collector said, "most rods like that unfortunately end up on the wall at Red Lobster". It seems that they are not nearly as collectible as bamboo fly rods. That does not mean that they do not have other, non-monetary value. To me, and obviously to you too, they have a great deal of value.
I promise you these rods will have underrated line and will not see hard use. If they are in peril I will cut the line. I imagine once my sons and I use them a couple times they will be put aside until it is time to pass them on to them. Hopefully it will bring them memories of another one of Dad's follies and our good times together.
Really do appreciate your thoughts,
Fen
Aside: I texted this photo of myself to one of my sons(he is a producer for several fishing shows and he is able to travel around the world to fish🫤). I thought it was a nice salmon:
B6602BFE-0111-4F08-8826-F86C7B001766.jpeg
He texted me the below photo of himself with the message, "Dad, we use those for bait". He is a real jerk sometimes😊
DB1C808C-2B32-4AB8-8283-8249B4DFD43B.jpeg
I promise you will will not use the bamboo rods on a Bluefin!
Your rods have 2 eyelets, which will put the load on those 2 spots on the rods. Halibut rods are generally short and stout all the way to the tip and have several eyes to displace the weight along the entire rod.
I've caught halibut from 10# and up to over 300#, and would never consider fishing a rod like yours for any size halibut, large or small. "Shore rods" are for pulling sideways on a fish. Dead weight hanging strait down is a whole nother ball game
I will give you my thoughts on those sticks , take it with a grain of salt .
They are trolling sticks . You will not like the way they handle / load up while ground fishing . Without enough guides you may break the stick , I know this from experience .
I have reguided bamboo sticks of that nature to ground fish and love them .
The heavy guided is my grouper stick.
Quote from: Maxed Out on January 05, 2025, 06:46:10 PMYour rods have 2 eyelets, which will put the load on those 2 spots on the rods. Halibut rods are generally short and stout all the way to the tip and have several eyes to displace the weight along the entire rod.
I've caught halibut from 10# and up to over 300#, and would never consider fishing a rod like yours for any size halibut, large or small. "Shore rods" are for pulling sideways on a fish. Dead weight hanging strait down is a whole nother ball game
Well, thank you for your sage advice. You have saved me some time and money, not to mention a couple of beautifully crafted rods...back in the box they will go but I refuse to let them end up on the wall at Red Lobster!
"When you know better, you do better"
Take care,
Fen
Quote from: oldmanjoe on January 05, 2025, 07:07:25 PMI will give you my thoughts on those sticks , take it with a grain of salt .
They are trolling sticks . You will not like the way they handle / load up while ground fishing . Without enough guides you may break the stick , I know this from experience .
I have reguided bamboo sticks of that nature to ground fish and love them .
The heavy guided is my grouper stick.
Nice work on the rods!😊
I'm starting to see a pattern here...will put the rods back in the box🫤
Thank you for your "two cents"; it may have saved me many dollars and bit of fishing history.
Take care,
Fen
Hmmm, a few somewhat negative comments. Maybe you better sell all that stuff you bought for a loss while you still can. I'll help you out 'cause I just that kind of a guy; $75🤗.
Thanks Fen, its a good post, very interesting, its hard to match them with a time period reel, hard to get one of the early senators of that time, maybe, an Ocean city Bay City, or an Ocean City 112, but I defiantly would not fish with them, But it would be a pity to hide them in a box, place them on a wall in your house, or man cave area Dominic, the gladiator may have an Ocean City reel,cheers Don.
"Fire Island Heavy Bank Rod" tells you everything you need to know about an appropriate reel. A 1/0 would look good on it, but I wouldn't fish with them.
Split bamboo dries out and gets brittle with age. Keeping the wood oiled will help prevent further degradation but will not bring it back to new condition.
Quote from: Maxed Out on January 05, 2025, 06:46:10 PMI've caught halibut from 10# and up to over 300#, and would never consider fishing a rod like yours for any size halibut, large or small. "Shore rods" are for pulling sideways on a fish. Dead weight hanging strait down is a whole nother ball game
The wonderful thing about Forums is that they sometimes force one to think about problems they have not thought about before. For example, how different are the forces that act on a bank rod from those used for ground fishing? Here is some food for thought but first let me say that I am in no way offended by any comments made here and I sincerely hope no one will be offended by what I have outlined below. We are are all here because we have a common interest and enjoy fishing. So, here are some of my thoughts on this weighty problem:
Diagram A:
AF7590F1-CDB2-427E-9F28-15114E1DC54B.jpeg
So this figure is supposed to be a person viewed from behind fishing from the shore. He can hold the rod upright(position 1), to the left(position 2) or to the right(position 3). The distances to the fish(D1, D2, and D3 are essentially the same.
Figure B:
8779EE1E-F6AE-4148-A3B1-9BC87A7E3B17.jpeg
This is supposed to be the same bank fisherman from the side. It is intended to show that the rod is held at roughly 90 degrees(+/- 20 degrees) to the fish in all three positions(angle A).
Figure C is intended to show a ground fisherman on a boat from above:
48BEA3EA-A982-45A3-A34A-654791BB0B5B.jpeg
This really is just figure A rotated 90 degrees. The horizon is now the gunwale and the distance offshore now becomes the depth.
Figure D is supposed to be the same ground fishermen from the side:
3FEA55F9-DDB0-4671-9D50-602A8FAEB625.jpeg
The depth of the fish roughly equals the distance of the fish offshore and the angle to the fish is still about 90 degrees +/-20 degrees.
So my conclusion from these drawings is that the angles and distances between bank fishing and ground fishing are very similar but rotated by 90 degrees.
But what about the forces generated by these two fishing methods?
-what about the weight of the fish? Well how much does a fish weigh in water? The answer must be zero or they would sink(since they have the same density as water, the water they displace equals the buoyancy created by the displaced water). So in both bank fishing and ground fishing, regardless of the size of the fish, the weight of the fish is zero.
-so what causes the force that we feel? I believe it must be the pulling of the swimming fish and the resistance generated by the shape of the fish as it is pulled through the water. In this case, certainly the barn door shaped halibut is the king of resistance and therefore I would think that their must be greater forces needed to overcome this resistance in any flatfish fishing.
-how do the maximum forces generated in bank fishing compare to the maximum forces in ground fishing? They must be the same because the maximum force is limited by the drag on your reel. It seems to me that if you have a reel with 20 pounds of drag that the rod should never "feel" more than twenty pounds of force regardless of whether you are bank fishing or ground fishing. How can it be otherwise?
So, am I saying that the forces in bank fishing and ground fishing for a large halibut are the same? Nope. The angles and the distances are similar and the weight of the fish in water(zero) are the same but a big strong halibut can pull a great deal more than a smaller streamlined fish so you will require more drag force and will likely be in max drag for longer periods of time.
So what the heck am I trying to say here? Well, I guess I can summarize it like this:
-I think the distances, angles and the maximum forces our rods experience can be similar between bank and ground fishing. Therefore any rod, whether it is for bank fishing or ground fishing, ought to have more than a tip top and a single line guide like the bamboo rods that I acquired. This is probably why they are somewhat of a rare find these days.
-all things considered, if I do ever fish these rods I will fish them with a light drag.
I can feel myself rambling. I will sign off now but want to finish by saying thanks to all of you that contributed to this thread.
Fen
Quote from: Gfish on January 06, 2025, 12:41:13 AMHmmm, a few somewhat negative comments. Maybe you better sell all that stuff you bought for a loss while you still can. I'll help you out 'cause I just that kind of a guy; $75🤗.
Thanks Gfish, glad to know you've got my back🤣
Quote from: Donnyboat on January 06, 2025, 02:04:37 AMThanks Fen, its a good post, very interesting, its hard to match them with a time period reel, hard to get one of the early senators of that time, maybe, an Ocean city Bay City, or an Ocean City 112, but I defiantly would not fish with them, But it would be a pity to hide them in a box, place them on a wall in your house, or man cave area Dominic, the gladiator may have an Ocean City reel,cheers Don.
Thanks Don, I will check into them.
Quote from: oc1 on January 06, 2025, 04:33:48 AM"New Jersey Bank Rod" tells you everything you need to know about an appropriate reel. A 1/0 would look good on it, but I wouldn't fish with them.
Split bamboo dries out and gets brittle with age. Keeping the wood oiled will help prevent further degradation but will not bring it back to new condition.
Thank you for the tips! Is " New Jersey Bank Rod" a website?
You went down an interesting road with this. In theory you're not far off. The reality is in fighting from shore your rod is rarely 90° away from the fish and if it is, you're probably cranking hard. Usually it's pointed more at the fish though there's obviously some pumping while you're reeling.
Bottom fishing from a boat your rod stays probably level with the water a lot so 90° is the starting angle, before you start pumping and reeling. So the angles involved are quite different. Not many worry about whether a surf rod will see line rubbing the blank in a bend because they don't usually see a deep bend. Not the same for boat rods.
Quote from: oc1 on January 06, 2025, 04:33:48 AMSplit bamboo dries out and gets brittle with age. Keeping the wood oiled will help prevent further degradation but will not bring it back to new condition.
oc1, thank you for the advice but I think I will hold off on oiling the rods since they look to have a lacquer finish on them that is in excellent condition; possibly because they were stored in a sock in a wooden box that was nailed closed.
I think maybe this dead horse has been flogged enough. Again, thanks for everyone's input. I certainly have a greater appreciation for these bamboo rods.
I do have one lingering question though:
Does anyone have any idea what the reasoning was for building a rod with just a tip top and ONE line guide near the tip?
1B7D11D6-EE81-4C5A-A79B-2FB151980872.jpeg
Take care,
Fen
0DC018F7-B5CE-4548-A3BD-FFE8E0E995E3.jpeg
One of my son's photos:
29B31A73-EC09-41AA-8BE6-63ED487CE452.jpeg
How much did that guy weigh Fen ? I have to ask what lure that is,looks like a huge plastic worm?
jpg12000, I am not sure, we did not weigh it. It was my first striper. I would guess it was between 25 and 30 lbs. I was fishing with my son in the stretch of water between Woods Hole and Martha's Vineyard. I will ask my son about the lure. He does some work for Hogy lures so I suspect it was one of theirs. I will get back to you😊.
D5FB7927-5951-4818-BB92-FF41234D8A36.jpeg
Don, it is an Amber Hogy Original, 10".
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15315.0
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.0
Quote from: oldmanjoe on January 06, 2025, 08:05:45 PMhttps://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15315.0
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.0
Thank you! I followed both links and left a brief inquiry at the second thread on vintage big game rods regarding the unusual placement of the line guides. The thread has not been active for a while but hopefully it will catch someone's eye😊.
Thanks again,
Fen
Supposedly when lining line was wet and went through algite guides , there was a water fall at each guide . This make sense with the longer sticks used for surf casting to reduce guides for a further cast . The 5 foot trollers did make sense ,only that it made it easy to flip the stick over during the days fights to avoid bend set .
Quote from: oldmanjoe on January 06, 2025, 09:05:36 PMSupposedly when lining line was wet and went through algite guides , there was a water fall at each guide . This make sense with the longer sticks used for surf casting to reduce guides for a further cast . The 5 foot trollers did make sense ,only that it made it easy to flip the stick over during the days fights to avoid bend set .
Makes sense. Thanks!
Hello All,
I'm just giving you guys a little feedback.
After about a half dozen or so suggestions from all of you I decided to go with a pair of old Penn 4/0 Senator reels with post frames that I found on-line that look to be in like-new condition. They are not as old as the rods but I don't think they will look out of place:
E7700960-33F7-4634-A1DB-E869174E600F.jpeg
Also decided to not use the rods and put them on display in my shop.
I thought I would put some old linen line on them if I can find some.
Thanks to everyone for your input!
Fen
4056A391-5093-42CA-9A61-A8995DC05519.jpeg
Just a little more feedback and a request.
The first Penn 4/0, post-frame reel arrived from England today. Looks to be unused like the rods. I think it has all come together pretty well:
F66749B3-A63B-4126-89D2-16A74102614A.jpeg
9F76390F-3DEF-4C51-A2A3-81152F0AA88D.jpeg
B8EDDDBC-C580-4780-944B-DF6BFBDE34DE.jpeg
Cleaned up and re-glued the tip-tops:
AA54D6F8-4972-4388-B451-8CF508832BB2.jpeg
5850C797-803C-44C5-9DF9-FE6A105BCEF5.jpeg
The metal I believe is an alloy called nickel-silver or "German Silver". Very nicely made, I think.
Now the request: I would like to put some linen line on them, anyone know of a good source?
Thanks again everyone for your input!
Fen
I like it. The reel goes well with the rod, both are in great looking shape.
Thanks Gfish, I am happy with the 113's; I was lucky to find a couple in very good condition. My next quest for this project is to find some linen line for the reels.
Fen
3DC43102-73DB-40DF-B38A-FFB502F7E020.jpeg
You have some great fish pictures. Have you checked-out the "Photo Gallery" section of the Forum?
I haven't, but I will!
Thanks!