Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Hello All, I am looking to get some advice on rebuilding a couple of Penn 114H reels.  They were left behind for me by a lobsterman when we purchased his home in mid-coast Maine.  The reels are in pretty rough shape so I would like to tear them down and refurbish them.  I was a bicycle mechanic in my father's bicycle shop as a young man so gears, springs and pawls are not entirely foreign to me.

I have many questions regarding the process, for example: what are the best lubricants and where to obtain them?; where is the best place to obtain spare parts?; I understand that there are upgraded parts such as drag disks to improve the reels performance. Where can these be found?...

I guess I am looking for a good place to start the process-any suggestions?

Thanks!

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mysticparts.com should have everything you need. Parts, lubricants, upgrade parts too

Hello from Baja, Mexico, you can start by checking this thread

https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,208.0.html

you can also, use "search" for "114h" or "6/0" and will tons of information of what can be done to those reels, just dont go overboard, you can easily spend few hundreds on mods for that reel.
 

Lubricant link.

https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,50.0.html

Those are good reels to start on -- they are relatively easy to work on and you'll have no problem getting any parts you need. One tricky part is installing the dog and leaf spring dog spring. They key is figuring out how to hold the part as you install it. Your reels almost certainly need new drag washers; you can get these plus and lubricants you need at Smoothdrag.com. If your reels are noisy once they've been cleaned and lubed, you may need new spool end bearings. These aren't cheap. If you do order them, make sure you get the right ones. Mystic Parts is the best source for most Penn parts.

My experience with leaf springs is limited to the Penn 9.I have
found a little grease helps it stay in place during assembly.

I have not discovered how to respond to each of you individually yet but want to thank you all for your input; it is all very helpful.

I figure the best thing to do here is to just get started now that I have some good leads for parts and information.  Hopefully I will be finished by the time fishing season rolls around😊

Thanks again!
Fen

For the basics you won't go wrong by calling Dawn at Smoothdrag.com or calling the pros at mysticparts.com  They always helped me out and answered my questions.   
Follow Alan's tutorial and post pictures of any issues if you run into trouble.  There are some amazing technical guys here that will help solve any problems.  I started Down this rabbit hole and have never looked back!

Take pictures as you take the reel apart, especially the mechanism on the handle side. It will save a bunch of time as it goes back together

Chances are the spool ball bearings will have to be replaced; does it grid a bit or make excessive noise when the spool is spinning?

When you get it apart, let us know. Pull the bearings out of both sides and soak in lighter fluid, acetone or other solvent (I use a pimento jar as it doesn't take much volume). Shake it now and then to break up sludge. Let sit a couple days then pull out and let dry, then lubricate with your preferred oil (NOT WD-40). I like Corrosion X on Senators as you don't need the speed of TS321, but Ardent, Penn, and others work too. Even Marvel or 3-in-1 if it's what you have, is better than nothing. Marine bearing grease on internal metal parts and screw holes. Order an ounce of Cal's drag grease when you get your carbon drag stacks and follow tutorial. They are beasts, and if you service and replace drags it's unlikely you'll wear that reel out. Same gear and drag as 9/0.

.

The bearings you need are  26-116 and either 40-114H or the  40-114HL.   Unfortunately it looked like they are no longer available.
You can pop the bearings out of the cup, measure the bearing and order one from a bearing retailer like Boca Bearings.

Well, thanks for all the good information!

I just finished disassembling one of the two reels.  I thought I would do one at a time and keep the other intact to help in re-assembly.  Below is a photo of the reel after a lot of cleaning.  I am sure you all know the drill.  It reminded me of the days when I would rebuild 3-speed hubs in my father's bicycle shop😊.

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The circled parts are the ones that I believe need to be replaced:

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Here is a list of the parts that I feel need to be replaced:

Frame post- badly pitted
Rod Clamp, graphite, cracked
Clamp nuts- badly corroded
O-ring for clicker side bearing assembly-just think it is a good idea to replace it.
Bearing, handle side- not smooth like clicker side bearing
Pinion- broken teeth
Eccentric screw- internal spring to hold bearing missing
Eccentric- chewed-up and does not fit eccentric lever well

Here are a couple of photos of the damaged pinion:

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I have not checked the price and availability of parts yet.  I tried to not get carried away with replacing parts since this is an old reel and don't want to fall into the trap of spending more than the reel is worth; I just want it to work smoothly and reliably. 

My next step is to check out the availability of parts, and lubricants.  Will also check into new drag components although these components do not look worn. I would also like to locate a couple of specialty wrenches for the Eccentric and Handle screws.  I imagine these came with the reel but they are now long gone!

I'll keep you all posted!

Advice is welcome!

Fen

I would recommend replacing BOTH bearings plus a new under gear washer.

Your drags are HT-100's in very good condition —- no need to replace.  Just grease the drags with Cal's tan drag grease.

Cal's can be also used on the gears, so you don't have to buy (2) greases, unless you want to.

Seems like the eccentric is OK.  Is there a reason you are replacing it?

Good disassembly!

Assuming you have a Penn wrench?

Best, Fred

Those look like the stock Penn Aluminum frames. Being as what you were gifted the reels, I'd say that parts list is def worth going for and the reels will last thirty more years with service. Not sure when I will get back to my shop, but if soon I will check if I have any of those parts. maybe a bearing at least.


John

Fred, thank you for the advice!  I wish I had read it just a bit sooner since I just finished placing my order to Mystic and would have ordered a couple under gear washers.  Fortunately it looks to be in good shape on the first reel.

They are out of bearings so will need to pursue another source.  I think earlier on in this thread someone gave source for bearings but indicated that they are pretty pricey.

Good to know the type of drag and that it is in good shape.  Also good to know the grease to use; will order some.

I replaced the eccentric because on the side you cannot see in the photo above there is an area that is chewed up, probably from a loose lever:

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Thanks again for your help!

Fen

If you call Mystic, they can toss one in the shipment —- or just put one in an envelope.

You can either use a CF under gear washer —- or one made of Delrin.

Someone on here will have the bearings..

And I can send you a CF washer if you get stuck.

Best, Fred

You should replace thee main gear whenever you replace the pinion gear. (I know. It's getting expensive...)

If your going to replace the main gear I suggest a brass with bronze bushing as the minimum, a good used one would be cheaper or good used main/pinion set which are already friendly with one another. Even better would be Penn steel main with bronze bushing with SS pinion, both new if possible. Those   "marine brass" main gears with the delrin bushings are junk.

All, just placed another order with Mystic; I imagine there will be others😊.  I ordered a couple CF under gear washers, two clicker-side bearings with o-rings, Val's universal grease and Reel-X oil.

Unfortunately(or maybe fortunately😊), I placed the order before I read the texts regarding replacing the main gear along with the pinion gear.  If the reel does not function well with the existing main gear I will replace it then. 

Now that I have two clicker-side bearings ordered, my next project is to locate two handle-side bearings.  The lobsterman that left the reels behind may have been a good lobsterman but he was pretty ham-handed when it came to working on reels.  I can see evidence of him trying to work on the bearings and has crushed the bearing race cover and the bearing cup edges in his attempts to repair the reels:

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Aside: I soon discovered that the bearing is not easy to remove from the cup, especially when the cup is distorted and corroded.

To remove it I made a little puller from a bulldog paper clip. This clip wire is a very strong spring steel and does not straighten when pulled and pulls from two points so the bearing does not tilt and lock in place like occurs when you pull from just one side. 

To make the little puller I removed the part from the paper clip, pounded the tips flat and then cut the tips to length with end nippers:

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I then inserted the tool into the bearing.   The tips spring outward under the bearing and stay in place. In fact, it is difficult to remove the tool once it is placed.  I then put the bearing and cup in a vice that is open just wide enough to engage the cup but not the bearing.  I clipped on some vice grips to the clip and pulled.  One can also use a rolling motion of the vice grip tip to gain leverage:

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This shows the underside of the puller with the bearing removed:

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Back to the problem at hand.  Here are the dimensions of the bearings I am now seeking:

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I would appreciate any kind of lead an a couple of good bearings.

Thanks!
Fen

Real nice invention on that bearing puller, Fen!

Best, Fred

Good job on the bearing/cup.
I hate those parts. The cup acts as a sump. Maybe the smallest drop of saltwater in a stored reel is enough to start the process. They both should be screw-in cups and serviced after every trip; Drop in solvent, drain, flush, and re-oil. Rather than design them as Penn did, they should have stayed with bushings.

That's brilliant. I may make one. If you already have the bearings out of the cups you can just measure them and get SS bearings of the same dimensions.

I have bearing cups for that senator. But I also have a bad habit of taking so long to send out the stuff I give away that it sometimes eventually gets forgotten. All those concussions in my youth have affected my memory. So I don't wanna promise and not deliver. But if nobody else has them, I can get them to you eventually.

Thanks Fred😊

I thought I would pass along one other thing that might be useful. When I worked in my Dad's bike shop when I was young we used either mineral spirits or lacquer thinner to clean parts with a stubby stencil brush in an oil pan.  It works great to get parts clean but there are downsides, especially to lacquer thinner.

I discovered what I think is a really nice product for cleaning parts: Lucas Extreme Duty Bore Solvent.  It does a great job dissolving the crud on reel parts, has a pleasant odor, is safe to use in a heated ultrasound cleaner and leaves a thin oil-like residue on the part.  It is e pensive but is really great stuff.  Here is a link to Lucas's product page:

https://www.lucasoil.com/product/lucas-extreme-duty-bore-solvent-ultrasonic-gun-cleaner/

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It comes in a gallon size for ultrasound machines:

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Just a little tidy bit I thought I would pass on. I used it on the 114H parts and really liked the results.

Take care,
Fen

Well, the "R3Z" that is stamped on the bearing gave me some possibilities.  I will try to find a good bearing that is saltwater compatible.  If you guys know of good source for saltwater bearings let me know😊.

Thanks!
Fen

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Made contact with Boca Bearings.  It looks like they have the correct size bearing. Any thoughts on stainless vs stainless/ceramic hybrid and shielded or unshielded?

Thanks,
Fen

smoodrag.com
https://www.smoothdrag.com/

is our in-house bearing and drag washer supplier, if you go with them you dont have to wonder if the bearings are good quality or not

Quote from: steelfish on January 10, 2025, 07:14:10 PMsmoodrag.com
https://www.smoothdrag.com/

is our in-house bearing and drag washer supplier, if you go with them you dont have to wonder if the bearings are good quality or not

Well darn, it seems that I need to check the Forum more often.  I was on the phone with Boca Bearing when you left your post.

I ordered two sets of hybrid bearings for the Senators. They were about twice as much as the all stainless bearings for the 114H that I see on Smoothdrag. Putting hybrid bearings on an old Senator may be a bit like putting a spoiler on a '57 Chevy but I will let you know how they work. 

Thanks for your help!
Fen


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the word "hybrid" and "ceramic" sounds pretty attractive in any field, but as far as I understand (I might be wrong and wont be the 1st time) ceramic bearings (full ceramic or hybrid) have better use in fishing reels that are used for casting lures not much for trolling reels like the 114h, for trolling reels nothing better than good quality Abec 5 Stainless steel bearings filled with grease (for marine use).

full ceramic bearings are lighter, smoother, cast better, need no lubrication but are expensive
hybrid ceramic bearings are also lighter than SS bearings, supposedly cast better than SS bearings BUT they do need lube because the rail of the bearing is Stainless steel and will corrode on saltwater.

Thanks for your input.  If I had it to do over again I would get the less expensive, all SS bearings but the package is on its way. I will post here if there are any issues.

Thanks again,
Fen

Well, I have everything cleaned-up and the new parts ordered from Mystic and Boca Bearings.  I thought I might try to get a few things clarified while I wait for the parts, that way I can start the fun stuff as soon as the parts arrive😊.

Most of my questions are related to the drag system. 

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Arrangement of the Stack- below is a picture and description(from the Mystic Website) of the order of assembly for the fiber, keyed(K) and eared(E) washers(the added arrow is pointing in the order of assembly):

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I believe my drag was likely reassembled incorrectly by the previous owner since the stack was arranged in exactly the reverse order with the metal keyed washer first against the Main Gear.  It makes sense that the fiber washer would be against the Main Gear so that is how I am planning on reassembling the drag washers.  Is this order for the drag washers correct?

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Fiber Washer 4-- on my reel the fiber washer(no. 4 in the Parts Diagram) is a hard, smooth, possibly Delrin washer. Should this be a fiber washer rather than a hard Delrin washer?  I have ordered a replacement washer from Mystic just in case. 

Washer 86-- this is described as "KEYED METAL WASHER(3 required)" in the Parts List.  I have one, non-keyed, cupped, thick stainless washer similar to that shown in the Parts Diagram.  I am assuming that the description in the Parts List is an error, especially since the second reel that I have has the same single, thick, cupped washer. Is it correct to have a single washer and should the concave side face downward toward the stack?

Oil Fitting on Handle-should there be a oil fitting(spring and ball bearing like on the Handle Lock Screw) where the arrow is pointing? I don't see this on either reel but it seems to me I have seen this on other reels.

And finally, I believe it was mentioned here(post #14, foakes)that the drags should be greased with Cal's Tan Drag Grease.  I have ordered an ounce of Cal's Tan Grease.  Is there more than one type of Cal's Tan Grease and is it specifically made for drags or is it all the same product?
Also, do I really want to grease the drag washers!?  It seems a little bit like greasing the rims on a bicycle wheel with caliper brakes!!!

Thanks again for your help!

Fen

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Hi Fen —-

While I have been repairing, servicing, and restoring reels for over 40 years —- there are many on our site who are real experts.  These are just my own experience and opinions—-

I believe my drag was likely reassembled incorrectly by the previous owner since the stack was arranged in exactly the reverse order with the metal keyed washer first against the Main Gear.  It makes sense that the fiber washer would be against the Main Gear so that is how I am planning on reassembling the drag washers.  Is this order for the drag washers correct?  Yes.

Fiber Washer 4-- on my reel the fiber washer(no. 4 in the Parts Diagram) is a hard, smooth, possibly Delrin washer. Should this be a fiber washer rather than a hard Delrin washer?  I have ordered a replacement washer from Mystic just in case.  For performance and longevity, either a Delrin or a CF under-gear washer just like the ones in the drag stack are what I use, and nearly everyone else on our site.  This is an under-appreciated and critical washer when applying drag.  The factory fiber washer will also work —- but under continued heavy usage it will distort, crack, and become ineffective. 

Washer 86-- this is described as "KEYED METAL WASHER(3 required)" in the Parts List.  I have one, non-keyed, cupped, thick stainless washer similar to that shown in the Parts Diagram.  I am assuming that the description in the Parts List is an error, especially since the second reel that I have has the same single, thick, cupped washer. Is it correct to have a single washer and should the concave side face downward toward the stack?  Yes, must be a typo likely, and the concave side down.

Oil Fitting on Handle-should there be a oil fitting(spring and ball bearing like on the Handle Lock Screw) where the arrow is pointing? I don't see this on either reel but it seems to me I have seen this on other reels.  They come either way.  On the larger reels that will see a lot of use on large fish in salt —- I prefer the oil fitting so that a reel doesn't need to be taken apart to lubricate the gear sleeve and bridge post when we are busy on the water.

And finally, I believe it was mentioned here(post #14, foakes)that the drags should be greased with Cal's Tan Drag Grease.  I have ordered an ounce of Cal's Tan Grease.  Is there more than one type of Cal's Tan Grease and is it specifically made for drags or is it all the same product?
Also, do I really want to grease the drag washers!?  It seems a little bit like greasing the rims on a bicycle wheel with caliper brakes!!!  Cal's is either tan for normal drag greasing or purple for lighter reels or reels used in very cold conditions.  Purple has a lower viscosity.  Either grease can be used also on the innards or your reels.  But Penn Blue, or Yamaha Marine blue is extremely effective also.  I use Yamaha.  It is used on the outdrives of vessels —- and since it can withstand the rigors of always being in the salt —- it will/is certainly effective in our reels.

Greasing the Carbon Fiber (CF) drag discs will eliminate any jerkiness or drag hesitations throughout the drag cycle from freespool to full lockup.  And in many cases of prolonged years of fishing —- the drags will last nearly forever, plus be buttery smooth.  I know this sounds counterintuitive to most mechanics —- but thousands on here and in the industry have been doing this since Alan introduced it many years ago.

Thanks again for your help!

Fen

Oops, Fred answered while I was thumb-typing. Well, our answers agree, so we're either both right or wrong!

Fiber washer 4-  You can use any of the three... the original hard smooth disk, a carbon fiber washer, or a delrin (type of plastic) washer. This part is intended to be a flat spacer between the bridge plate and the sleeve to preserve geometry and minimize friction. Different people have different preferences, but they all work.

Washer 86- The concave washer is called a Belleville. It flexes as pressure is applied when you tighten the drag star, moderating the friction between the metal and carbon fiber drag washers. As you say, it goes concave side toward the drag stack. When people modify the drag stack to achieve a higher drag rating, they will sometimes change to a thicker (stronger) Belleville, or even stack 2 (or more) Bellevilles.

Grease Yes, surprisingly you do want to grease your drag washers. The grease doesn't really impact the final drag rating of the stack, instead the pressure does, but it improves the smoothness of the drag, minimizing that initial quick release when the drag first starts to slip and chattering when the drag is just about to stop slipping. A smoother drag means less herky-jerk on the line and less chance to pull the hook or break the line. This is more important when using braid than when using mono that has a lot of stretch to it. There are two types (colors) of Cal's grease. Both are for the drag stack, but can be used anywhere in the reel that needs to be greased. One is for warmer climates and the other is for cold climates.

Wow, thank you both for your help!  First of all, what a great shop Fred; I am envious.

With the help you guys have given me, and others on the Forum, I feel like I can now reassemble the reels with confidence😊.

Fred, when I was talking about the oil fitting on the handle I was referring to the little hole on the plastic handle right where the tip of the arrow is pointing:

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It just seems like I have seen little ball fittings there on other reels.  Maybe I just imagined it😊.

What would be your choice of material for the under-gear washer?

As one of our past presidents is reported to have said, "Honesty and hard work is no substitute for experience".  Thank you again for the benefit of your experience!

Fen



Aside: This process reminds me a bit of when my father opened his bicycle shop in a small town in Pennsylvania.  I was in eighth grade and was the mechanic.  Neither one of us had experience in repairing bicycles.  One of my first jobs was repairing a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub with an internal coaster brake.  I very carefully laid out my tools then carefully lifted the side cover...springs and dogs went flying everywhere!  I had no parts diagram and had to send away to England to get one. Now, with the internet and Google, I can pull one up in seconds:

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Look a little bit like something from Mystic?😊


We lost money on that job😊.

Fred, this is what I was trying to describe:

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Fred was a bit unclear on the grease, Cal's on the drag washers, Yamaha Marine grease on everything else.

 That little ball bearing on top of your handle is likely stuck down inside. Put a bit of oil in the hole, and then poke around in the hole with a safety pin, or something similar, and it'll likely pop back up in place

I use Lucas reel oil you can inject the oil right into the
Oil ports,it's good stuff.

Lucas Oil Fishing Reel Oil https://a.co/d/4nUfgIu

Thanks again you guys!

Keta- I will use Cal's tan grease on the drag washers and marine grease elsewhere.  We have a boat and I have plenty of marine grease.  I am always surprised when I service the Volvo drive that the grease that has been underwater for a season looks like it was just placed there- amazing stuff!

It seems like many people on the Forum are from the West Coast so our boat, which was made in Bellingham, may look familiar to some. She may be funny looking but she's seaworthy😊:

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Maxed Out- thanks for the advice but no luck so far retrieving the ball bearing in the handle but will continue to try.

jgp12000-thanks for the tip on the Lucas oil.  Lucas makes some really good products.  I will check it out.

Thanks again!
Fen

Just one more picture. This is one of my sons fly fishing:

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Love the project; love the pic! You might consider putting the handle in a smaller container in the sonicator with some white vinegar and see if it will break down any corrosion that may be in the oil port, follow up with sonication in an oil. It is possible it's just stuck, but more likely some corrosion holding it.

Looking at a Senator project never gets old, at least for me, and this serves as a good refresher for newer members as to how to tackle such a project. Especially the part about including broadbill pics!

I won't be back home until next week but will see what I have in the way of 114H parts.

John

thorhammer, I have probed and probed the opening in the handle and there is not a ball in either handle.  I believe these are a rare Penn variant called a "female handle"🙄

Thanks for your help!
Fen

Glad you like the picures😊

Here is one my son sent to me:

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I wonder if one can catch a fish like this with an old Penn 6/0 Senator?😊

Nothing funny looking about that boat. Looks like a Sea Sport. Perfect for fishing the PNW

You nailed it Maxed Out!  It is a SeaSport Seamaster.  I had her built twenty five years ago.  She has been a great boat for us.

Still some lobster boats in the water here:

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I love their lines: displacement hull with a bit of tumble home, high sheer with just the right amount of flare, and a plumb stem. They are just beautiful, I think, and handle some pretty tough weather.  Woops, sorry, I forgot that this is a fishing reel forum🤣.

Just finished pulling the bearing from the clicker side using the "Fen Puller"🤣:

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Take care,
Fen

Wow, good idea!

Fen - All good tips from some very knowledgeable Ohana.  You had asked about shielded vs. non-shielded bearings.  Let me start by linking one of Alan's original bearing tutorials https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13.0
For my own $.02 on bearings, first the shields.  A lot of folks ditch them since they can trap moisture within the bearing.  Myself?  I pretty much take a "it is what it is" approach since I stay on top of my own stuff so I don't go out of my way one way or the other.  What I will say next (and others may differ) also can influence that decision -
Grease vs. oil.  General wisdom is "grease for gears and drags, oil for bearings".  I tend to look more at the overall use of the reel.  And I can tell you in my personal 114 and 114H reels the bearings are greased, because no way, no how am I ever going to be attempting to cast one.  Mine are used as trollers or bottom fishing rigs, and these are both applications where the extra drag of grease in the bearings should not affect performance, but will give an enhanced degree of protection against water intrusion.  And generally greasing is easier without shields (and Alan also has designed a great bearing packer that works great, shields or no shields, but definitely really only necessary when you are doing a lot of reels.)  Going for maximum casting distance when bombing irons or live bait?  Then a quality oil will probably be a better choice.  Keep us posted on your progress, those early Senators are great reels, a good value overall, and good ones to learn on. - john

I generally grease pinion bearings on lever drag reels, oil for all other bearings

For a casting reel take off the shields and service often. For trolling and bottom fishing reels, like Brewcrafter posted, grease and replace the seals.

Alan's bearing greasers are nice, if you start doing more reels they are a good investment.

BTW, nice boat and a common higher end boat in SE Alaska.

 Lots of great bearing oils out there. For me, I'm an oddball. I use 10-40 motor oil on my bearings with shields left on. It's never let me down....yet.

 Ok you guys, now I'm ready for a beat down

Hello All, just a couple updates and a question.

The hybrid bearings arrived today.  They have a soft orange seal that can be removed so you can grease them if you want.  I am going to run them with oil as recommended and see how they do.  I will post any problems on the thread.

Here is some literature on the bearings and their part number:

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It is interesting to me that they have "special stainless steel" which their website lists as "X940 Stainless".  I could not find any information on this alloy but there is an extremely corrosion resistant 904 stainless that is a super 316 as far as corrosion resistance is concerned.  It appears that all 900 series stainless steel alloys have this property. Perhaps that justifies the increased cost of the bearings.

Just some stuff on the alloy:

BB36508D-6757-46FB-9DB5-C02E5EB46915.jpeg

AA095E8F-E3BA-40AA-96B3-4225A8BF2F68.jpeg

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Now, the question.  I received the parts from Mystic today.  All are just as I ordered, however, the pinion gear seems to be different than the original.  The original has a steel band around the circumference while the new one does not:

0BA50DC3-C3C8-48A0-98DF-70AF1DC9F100.jpeg

They both have the same OD and fit into the reel.  I am wondering if this is a design change since the old design looks inherently flawed or do I have the incorrect part? I have an email in to Mystic but I haven't heard yet so I though I would ask here. This does, of course change the gear ratio since the new pinion gear has more teeth(18 vs 16) which changes the gear ratio of the reel from 2.9 to 2.6.  I gues this will help me crank up those big halibut😊.

Any thoughts on this pinion gear?

Thanks!
Mike

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Hi Fen,
The 18 tooth pinion without the reinforcing ring is for a 114 Senator and is used with a 38 tooth main gear for a ratio of 2.1:1. The 16 tooth pinion with the reinforcing ring is used in the 114H Special Senator with a 46 tooth main gear for a ratio of 2.875:1 which is sometimes listed as 2.8:1 and other times listed as 2.9:1. I don't believe the two pinions are interchangeable.

You're reels are Special Senators so you need the 16 tooth pinion.

If you ordered from Mystic maybe you didn't scroll down far enough in the list of Senators. Go down to original Special Senators. Or perhaps they sent the wrong pinion. Either way maybe they will exchange it as long as it hasn't been used.

Edit: I'd like to see a picture of the main gear that was turning that pinion. I can't believe it's not damaged also.

Here's a link to Mystics 114H page.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn114H.aspx

The pinion gear you need is a 13-114H.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/13-114H.aspx

The main gear is a 5-115
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/5-115.aspx

OhReely & Keta, thank you!  You prevented me from making a big mistake with my overhaul.  It was my fault, I ordered the wrong pinion gear.  I was on the "non-special" Senator parts list/diagram.  Fortunately only two of the dozen or so parts that I ordered from the wrong parts list have different part numbers: the pinion gear and the under-gear fiber washer.  I have re-ordered both.

Interestingly, my reels both have Handle Side Bearings with 114HL stamped on them but the reels seem to be more consistent with the non "L" diagram.  Fortunately I don't think I need to figure this out since this does not affect the pinion gear or under gear fiber washer that I need. I ordered the 13-114H Pinion Gear and the 4-115 Under Gear Fiber Washer.

OhReely, you wanted to see the Main Gear, so here it is😊:

E95232F3-CF3D-4138-8FFA-A6242E33D049.jpeg

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1E62EA29-3BB2-4F52-BC4C-8816E91B06C7.jpeg

I think it is in very good shape so I didn't order a replacement.

Thanks again to both of you!

Fen


A picture of myself and two of my fishing buddies*:

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*not really, but this is the way I picture us😊

I agree on the condition of the main gear teeth but the top of the gear where the earred washer sits looks pretty badly worn. Not sure the ears will stay engaged with the gear under stress. You would probably lose 30-50% of your drag resistance. But I guess you'll find out. I believe the "L" was used to identify reels that came from Penn with an aluminum spool instead of the chrome over brass/bronze wire line spools. You will see "114HL" on frames, reel boxes and other parts but not on side plates, to indicate lightened Senators. In the case of frames it doesn't make a difference but parts I just don't know.

Since I mentioned frames, your frames appear to be graphite and in my opinion the better of the two types of graphite half frames I've seen. Yours have a SS sleeve that slides over the front edge of the frame to protect it from wire and braid line. There is another version that uses a post fitted into a groove in the front of the frame. No mechanical attachment of the frame to the side plates and rings at that point.

Your frames should have seven screw holes in each side. They may or may not have threaded brass inserts in those holes. No matter either is fine with the proper screw. So what's my point?


Inner rings have eight screw holes
Side plates have eight screw holes
Outer rings have five screw holes

My opinion again, you're giving up strength if those three screws (six total) are missing. Two solutions - replace the outer rings with those having eight holes or put flat head screws through the side plates that will fit under the outer rings without interference before assembling with the outer rings.

I'm no engineer but the Senators were designed and tested by fishermen not bean counters. Anyone know if a Chinese made Senator ever set a record

OhReely, thanks again for your input!

I emailed "Mo" at Mystic and told her my error with the pinion gear.  She indicated that they would accept the return if the gears are in original condition😊.

I will respond to your last post in italics:

I agree on the condition of the main gear teeth but the top of the gear where the earred washer sits looks pretty badly worn. Not sure the ears will stay engaged with the gear under stress. You would probably lose 30-50% of your drag resistance. But I guess you'll find out.I am pretty sure you are referring to the vertical grooves in which the ears of the ss washer fit.  If that is the case I think they look worn only because it was not a good photo.  Here is a photo with an eared washer in place:



509AF0DF-EED2-4D3C-97CA-21FF98DE230B.jpeg


I think it is a pretty close fit and don't believe it will give me any problem.


 I believe the "L" was used to identify reels that came from Penn with an aluminum spool instead of the chrome over brass/bronze wire line spools. You will see "114HL" on frames, reel boxes and other parts but not on side plates, to indicate lightened Senators. In the case of frames it doesn't make a difference but parts I just don't know.  OhReely, I looked at the Parts Lists and Drawings for the 114H and 114HL and compared them:


B9C9B2B1-142D-40FC-8743-F8154C250DC0.jpeg


The parts highlighted in green on this 114HL drawing are parts that differ from the 114H.  It looks like the spools have the same part number.  The differences between the two seem to be in three areas: the stand, the frame and the number of screws on the side plate/frame.

Since I mentioned frames, your frames appear to be graphite and in my opinion the better of the two types of graphite half frames I've seen. Yours have a SS sleeve that slides over the front edge of the frame to protect it from wire and braid line. There is another version that uses a post fitted into a groove in the front of the frame. No mechanical attachment of the frame to the side plates and rings at that point.

Your frames should have seven screw holes in each side. They may or may not have threaded brass inserts in those holes. No matter either is fine with the proper screw. My frames have four holes on each side; three with threaded inserts, one without a threaded insert.


So what's my point?


Inner rings have eight screw holes
Side plates have eight screw holes
Outer rings have five screw holes

My opinion again, you're giving up strength if those three screws (six total) are missing. Two solutions - replace the outer rings with those having eight holes or put flat head screws through the side plates that will fit under the outer rings without interference before assembling with the outer rings. Good thought but since my frames have only four holes the additional flat head screws would have no where to attach on the frame.

OhReely, thanks again for your input, I am learning something with each post!

Fen

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Yup that gear looks good to go.

The half frame in the 114HL drawing would have a decal stating aluminum one piece frame 114HL. Those frames have 7 holes per side and the SS stand is fastened to the frame with 4 screws. There are two versions of the stand, thick and thin. But I believe the 114HL was also sold with 2 aluminum bars and one post or with 5 posts, both had the usual stand. The spool was the reason for the "L".

The graphite frames I've seen have either 7 holes per side with a protective sleeve on the front edge of the frame or 3 holes per side with a thinner post at the front edge of the frame nestled in a recess in the frame. A standard size post is used at the top and the stand is riveted to the frame. Now I've learned there is a 4 hole frame.

You know I really appreciate that you provide feedback. I wish more people would do that. EXCHANGE of INFORMATION. I can surely use all the help I can get.

Thanks,
OR

OhReely, not that you don't believe me but here is a photo of the four hole graphite frame😊:

DD6DF92F-3A27-448C-96B6-135665AC88BB.jpeg

Three of the holes have threaded brass inserts.  The fourth hole under the ss protective sleeve does not have an insert.  I can only speculate why they left the fourth hole without a sleeve and it might be because there just isn't enough graphite material in that position to accommodate one.

As far as feedback is concerned,  I would be crazy not to since I am learning a great deal from guys that have, "forgotten more than I will ever know" about reel repair-thanks again!

Fen

Now, of course, a photo:

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The insert has come out and the frame is not useable as is. I might have a useable frame but will have to look.  If the ones I have are missing inserts I will pull a insert out and send it to you to epoxy in place.  I am heading to my shop in a hour or so

Hi Keta, that is very nice of you but I think there is a chance that this position was intended to be without an insert.  The reason I say this is that all four of the forward positions of the two bodies I have are without inserts, the holes are threaded, and the holes are not countersunk like there had been an insert that had been lost.  I don't think this is Penn's greatest engineering achievement, especially since you can see one position is cracked, but I do think it is likely that this is the way my bodies were built:

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Thanks again,
Fen


BTW, as you can see, I share your tackle affliction:


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Fen,
I have no reason to not believe you. I honestly never saw a 4 hole graphite frame before. Looks like you have a handle on things. Good luck with the rest of the build.

This may help , Ace hardware has nutserts or you can drill for a reel bar .
    A little Ca glue for the crack .

(https://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=149828;image)

I will look the half frames I have and see if they are like yours .  I see a crack on the top of the hole too.

Oldmanjoe, thank you, I will look into the inserts but I don't think I have enough material to hold an insert.

Keta, thank you, I will be very interested to hear whether you have any frames with the same "missing" insert.

The new pinion gears should be here tomorrow, I am looking forward to the-assembling the reels!

Thanks again,
Fen

Another one of my son's photos:

IMG_1177.jpeg

OhReely

"Fen,
I have no reason to not believe you. I honestly never saw a 4 hole graphite frame before. Looks like you have a handle on things. Good luck with the rest of the build."

Of course I was just kidding!😊
Thanks for keeping me out of trouble on this project and thanks for the good luck wishes😊

Well, I just finished reassembling the two reels.  I decided to throw in some grease in the bearing cups even though you can run the Boca Saltwater ceramic bearings dry if you like.  Each reel had about a dozen parts replaced but I am happy with the outcome and am really looking forward to using them this spring!

I have a couple old post-frame 113's coming in the mail soon to go with some old bamboo rods.  They look like they are in much better shape than the reels I just rehabbed but I am sure I will at least "look under the hood" to make sure all is OK and now, with all of the help you guys have given me, I can do it with confidence.  THANKS TO ALL OF YOU!

I didn't take as many photos as I should have since I was "concentrating".

Here are a couple pre photos:

8266FC4E-E196-468A-84A3-F340004AE578.jpeg

E4972FAA-55A8-480C-9E4D-32722CE829D5.jpeg

...and a couple post photos:

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Thanks again!
Fen

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Wow what a transformation. Great job.

One little thing though. I think most of us here use a brush and paint a light coat of grease over at least all of the metal parts, myself I coat everything, inside the reel during assembly. Another area is the underside of the rings before putting them on the plates. Screw threads also and any other area where you have dissimilar metals in contact with one another.

Thanks OhReely!

I did brush the parts with grease but it is barely visible on the photo and was probably too light.  I used an acid brush trimmed down to about 1/4".  Trimming it down makes it stiffer and helps me get into tight spots.  I used Cal's Tan Grease on the discs in the drag as recommended and Volvo Penta marine grease on everything else since I had it available. It is very light tan and is not as visible as some other greases.  I used the Volvo grease since I had it available and have seen how well it performs in the marine environment on our boat.

Next time I will use more grease on the internal parts.  Great tip about greasing the inside surface of the rings.  I completely overlooked that-Thanks!


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Well, because of the crack in the half frame:

IMG_2958.jpeg

I decided to use Tiburon aftermarket aluminum frames:

IMG_3074.jpeg

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They are beautifully machined and fit perfectly.  I think it is a nice upgrade.  If anyone is interested, they have three frames available for the 114H; one is anodized red, the remaining two are unanodized and can be made to your color preference.

Well, that about winds-up this thread. Thanks to all that participated in helping with my first re-build!

Take care,
Fen

If you have not already done it you need to grease the frame screws to prevent future greaf.

Great Work Fen!
You have two Battle Tanks now with the Aluminum Frame.

Thanks Keta, I greased 'em up up good!😊.

I have a rod rack on my car that has stainless screws in an aluminum threaded hole; I tried everything to free them but they have now become one-forever. I hope to avoid that with the reels😊

Shark Hunter, thanks!  I can't wait to use them.  I was really impressed by the Tiburon workmanship.  I am not a machinist by trade but it is a hobby of mine. They really do a nice job at Tiburon.


Thanks again you guys!
Fen


Titanium piece I machined for one of my fly rods:

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