2 major fires jumped up Tuesday. 1 in Pasadena/Alta Dena (Eaton) and the 2nd in the Pacific Palisades (Palisades Fire). Fierce winds are driving these fires.
As of 930 pm the Eaton is at 400 acres with numerous homes lost. The Palisades Fire is at 2921 acres with multiple homes lost. It's burning towards Santa Monica. The wind is keeping any air craft from flying. Winds don't die down until Friday. At my house in the mountains we got rain and snow, hopefully this will protect us.
Prayers to all in the path of this hellatious Fire storm. Bill
'Tis the season, Santa Ana winds blow, fires burn... it's unfortunately an annual thing.
Unfortunately there are at least a couple confirmed fatalities. Saw video this morning of responders using dozers to push abandoned vehicles off the roads to allow emergency equipment through. Checked my weather station, and here in the Riverbottom of the 909, here are the meteorogical factors: Average Wind last 24 hours - 24kts, Highest reading last 24 hours - 43 kts. Rainfall totals for 2024 Calendar Year - 8.35". The kicker on the rainfall, over 8" of that was between 1 Jan and 12 Feb. Hope these conditions abate quickly. Received many updates on my phone in course of the night; for those not "in the know", the Watch Duty App is a very useful resource for updates. - john
pretty scary!!! :-[
John is exactly right.
"Watch Duty App" seems to be the best for accurate and up-to-the minute complete information as to evacuations, personnel, equipment, percentage contained, predictors, and maps.
It is used by most fire agencies also.
I also use flight tracker to follow and ID aerial suppression efforts.
Best, Fred
This is absolutely crazy! :o Pretty soon no one in California will be able obtain HO insurance even if they could afford it. :o
It doesn't help if this is true - Los Angeles fire hydrants are OUT OF WATER because the county REFUSED to refill reservoirs.
I saw that message on X and another note in the news.
We have multiple reports of water hydrants in Southern California running out of water as devastating wildfires rip through the Los Angeles area threatening tens of thousands of homes.
Not trying to drag politics here just reporting what I saw earlier.
Quote from: jtwill98 on January 08, 2025, 08:57:16 PMIt doesn't help if this is true - Los Angeles fire hydrants are OUT OF WATER because the county REFUSED to refill reservoirs.
I saw that message on X and another note in the news.
We have multiple reports of water hydrants in Southern California running out of water as devastating wildfires rip through the Los Angeles area threatening tens of thousands of homes.
Not trying to drag politics here just reporting what I saw earlier.
It looks to me like folk trying to make political hay out of the situation. From what I have read, the problem is that this is a dry desert area without much groundwater. The water system was designed to deliver the volume of water needed for normal municipal usage and fighting large fires requires a lot more. The local reservoirs have more water than normal right now. They just can't pump it fast enough.
From the Associated Press:
The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power was pushing water from aqueducts and groundwater into the system, but demand was so high, it wasn't enough to refill three one-million gallon tanks in hilly Pacific Palisades that help pressurize hydrants for the neighborhood. ...
About 40 percent of Los Angeles city water comes from state-controlled projects connected to northern California, and the state has limited water deliveries this year. Yet the southern California reservoirs these canals help feed are at above-average levels for this time of year.https://apnews.com/article/wildfire-california-climate-603512236222f82c77901db1039e959f (https://apnews.com/article/wildfire-california-climate-603512236222f82c77901db1039e959f)
Determining what can or should be done about water delivery capacity is bound to be complicated and would require actual knowledge on the issues and therefore not a useful topic for those politicians that prefer to just point fingers at other politicians.
-J
Cut the fire department budget,tear down dams,& protect the smelt. I think someone should be held accountable for destroying their own state,it's freaking criminal !!!
Politicians & knowledge shouldn't be allowed in the same sentence,since we do have a no politics rule....bahaha
I have an opinion on the water pressure/volume, but I don't want to get banned.
Praying for everyone in this fire/windstorms path.
I have a buddy who fly's a Cal Fire spotter aircraft marking the drop areas for the big boy tankers to start their drops. His aircraft is not grounded, and his crew is providing recon, but the tankers are due to the wind. They were making drops yesterday that never made it to the ground, be it water or retardant.
Crazy.
The pertinent conditions came together at the same time. Very low RH(relative humidity), high sustained speed Santa Anna winds with gusts up to 100mph and nice thick fine fuels from 2-relatively wet past winters.
The politics should interesting and even amusing at times. Should be plenty of it given the given the economics of the affected zip codes.
I grew up in Cucamonga. The first year we moved into the house all the windows on the North side were blown in, the builder had no idea about Santa Annas.
I had a lot of friends and dated a lot of girls in Pasadena, and spent a few lifetimes running around in those hills fishing and hiding from humanity.
Winds blow, fire burns, and maybe living in a toilet bowl where this has happened for millennia isn't a great idea after all (even though I love that valley.)
The Man
I've been thru several of these fires, no way any amount of water will stop it. Low humidity, parched fuel, high winds, there's no stopping it. It's burning more than a football field a minute and throwing embers a mile down range.
Everyone's pipes are burned and the water free flows down the hills resulting in very low water pressure
Under normal conditions they have plenty of water to fight a regular fire
I was thinking that watching some video. The water streams could be evaporating before hitting the hottest part of the fire(need hit the base, but it looks hard because they can't get close enough due to the intense heat). Will be interested to see if the sources of ignition are found.
Wasn't implying it could be stopped but little to no water pressure at the hydrants is a man-made problem.
I fished a local SoCal tailwater stream last week that I have fished regularly for 40 years and have never seen it run so high. This even with no rain since May. The reservoirs are not low. (This a Trout stream. No Smelt.)
LA sent all their fire fighting extra equipment to Ukraine.
Mike
Terrible looking images on TV tonight. Holding thumbs you are all OK and my sympathy's with all those effected. :'( :'(
Gavin Newsome and Karen Bass political careers are over with.
This might be a bit of a vent, but you all are who I would turn to. These places are where I grew up, I know the streets that the satellites are showing don't exist anymore. I have been in a lot of those houses, it is really mind bending.
I don't think there is a solution. Some of those neighborhoods have been through Santa Annas for almost 1.5 centuries. There is to much infrastructure to close together and not enough resources.
People need to move to Wisconsin.
This is rambling, but I'm not certain what to say. Political ridiculousness from any and all is not beneficial, and play time is over. I truly pray that some very smart, capable people get together and figure this out.
Chief
It should be a "woke up" call for everyone literally.It's terrible the innocent citizens have to suffer
The pain & loss for incompetence.
I am done talking,only prayers here on out.
We just got the power turned back on in Glendora SCE issued a public safety shut off Tuesday early morning. I only lost about 20ft of very old wooden fence that needed to be replaced anyways. The smoke from the Eaton fire is now pushing east. My loss pales in comparison to those who have lost their homes and lives.
This morning my wife asked me if California was still right for us. I don't know at this point. We experience a large hill side wild fire six months after we moved in to our current home 10yrs ago. That was a scary time for us and made me regret moving my family to the suburbs form the our prior urban home.
Stay Safe out there.
Jose
Yes we had the same trouble, in Western Australia, a few years back, Yarloop fire, all the fire fighting truck were supposed to fill up, with water, at the sports ground, but the town tank ran out of water, They have all these dams on the side of the hills, some private & some public, you think they could run some pipes to the town tank, and when there is an emergence, just open the valves, & control the water at the town tank, its not rocket science ay, cheers Don.
The fires don't have a party. I design municipal water systems. Water pressure is a complex topic on flat ground add some terrain and it becomes even trickier. To blame this situation on any one thing is folly.
But that doesn't stop bad actors from politicizing it for their own gain.
God bless those affected and watch over those in harms way. I'm done.
All the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
Quote from: MarkT on January 10, 2025, 01:40:09 AMAll the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
That's the only truth everyone needs to know!
They've almost worn out the word "apocalypse" this week but this thing is almost too much to comprehend. Cali has already been through a couple "never again" state programs relative to fires. Hawaii built their program on what Cali did. But, wow, this is really going to stick a spur in their side. It hard to imagine what will come next.
Quote from: pjstevko on January 10, 2025, 03:53:17 AMQuote from: MarkT on January 10, 2025, 01:40:09 AMAll the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
That's the only truth everyone needs to know!
Gents,
This is undisputably true, However:
What everyone should understand is infostructure failed, fire hydrants had no pressure or not enough to feed the fire fighter's needs. That is 100% avoidable and "whomever" was responsible needs to be held accountable. If a crew of fire fighters had been killed due to no water this sad story would be a whole lot sadder.
I live in the United States of America, not some third world country and this should never happen here.
I heard back from my Cal Fire friend; air assets are starting to make an impact.
Quote from: Crab Pot on January 10, 2025, 05:19:18 AMQuote from: pjstevko on January 10, 2025, 03:53:17 AMQuote from: MarkT on January 10, 2025, 01:40:09 AMAll the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
That's the only truth everyone needs to know!
Gents,
This is undisputably true, However:
What everyone should understand is infostructure failed, fire hydrants had no pressure or not enough to feed the fire fighter's needs. That is 100% avoidable and "whomever" was responsible needs to be held accountable. If a crew of fire fighters had been killed due to no water this sad story would be a whole lot sadder.
I live in the United States of America, not some third world country and this should never happen here.
I heard back from my Cal Fire friend; air assets are starting to make an impact.
Fortunately, I'm well south of the fire areas down in Orange County but you have no clue! No water system in the hills, anywhere, is designed for a 4x normal draw for 15 hours straight. They could've had full pressure the entire time and not saved one of those structures in the Palisades fire. I don't care how courageous you are but when the fire is being blown towards you at those rates you aren't standing your ground unless you have a death wish. You can't save structures if you can't save yourself.
You can only get 10 gallons of shat in a 10 gallon hat and only so much water through pipes and a water system. Open enough valves and the largest main will loose pressure.
Quote from: MarkT on January 10, 2025, 01:40:09 AMAll the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
The ocean will stop it but there are a lot of homes and businesses in the path.
Quote from: Keta on January 10, 2025, 01:01:37 PMYou can only get 10 gallons of shat in a 10 gallon hat and only so much water through pipes and a water system. Open enough valves and the largest main will loose pressure.
Quote from: MarkT on January 10, 2025, 01:40:09 AMAll the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
The ocean will stop it but there are a lot of homes and businesses in the path.
If people have already decided that the political party they hate is responsible theres literally nothing to change their mind.
Cable news just needs to seed the idea.
Wow, there's gonna be alota worthless finger pointing for a long time. "We need to hold assembly hearings on this disaster because the people of California want answers now!" The political positioning is probably all but over with, they're just waiting for the grandstand mike. Should be entertaining, but maybe only to someone like me. What a waste.
I think Mark's characteristically blunt statement sums it up well. When the conditions are right(as bad as they can possibly be)there's almost nothing you can do. Water's best use in a situation like that "might" be best used mostly for mop-up. I know, easy for me to say... I learned many years ago trying to stop a house trailer fire; a certain temperature(possibly density of burning material also)would vaporize any water stream, with no effect on the heat source.
"Feckless" is a new 50 cent word for me,it knows no party either.The damage is done,now people have died or lost everything regardless of who they put in those
Leadership roles.
I find these maps show the fire devastation in the LA Basin.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/39/7588-100125212236-39187111.jpeg)
These are from the San Jose Mercury News, I am a long-time subscriber, and I give the Merc News all credit, the above map was from yesterday's paper,
and here is one from today.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/39/7588-100125212236-391872103.jpeg)
Wayne
Quote from: pjstevko on January 10, 2025, 03:53:17 AMQuote from: MarkT on January 10, 2025, 01:40:09 AMAll the water in the world wouldn't help when 60-100mph winds are driving the fire 200 yds a minute.
That's the only truth everyone needs to know!
This makes sense.
I read an interview with a local fire chief that was not very interested in the water pressure debate. He said something along the lines of "you can't fight these kind of fires with hydrants".
Similarly, the other distracting claims mentioned look to be both factually wrong and irrelevant. There are far too many "news" sources out there willing to tell us only what we want to hear.
As others here have noted, we are up against increased housing density in fire prone areas, increasing periods of drought, and more frequent high temperatures plus stronger Santa Anas. The stuff with no specific villains and no easy short term solutions.
Hope that you SoCal folks get a break and maybe some gentle rains, so you can get a few months off from this mess.
-J
"Gentle Rains". For folks not familiar with the area and the dynamics of wildland fires - I am not optimistic but have hope. - john
No one has yet mentioned the "drone incident".
"Super scooper" (likely deHaviland CL425EAF) planes are on loan from Canada. They can fly above the water and quickly scoop up water to fill their 1500 gallon tanks. They were being used as the wind speeds started decreasing, and are usually used in pairs. One of the planes collided with a private drone, causing a hole in the wing; scratching and parking that vital and effective air craft. It is unlikely that the damaged plane will be repaired in time to be used during this current wind/fire event, since the owner is in Canada and the repairs will have to be authorized by the owners.
Anytime wild fires are being fought with aircraft, that air space is typically restricted; no drones, and news helicopter crews are well aware of altitude flight restrictions. One idiot didn't heed the limitations and took this tool out of the equation.
The drone flyer needs to go to prison.
Quote from: Gfish on January 09, 2025, 03:01:45 AMThe pertinent conditions came together at the same time. Very low RH(relative humidity), high sustained speed Santa Anna winds with gusts up to 100mph and nice thick fine fuels from 2-relatively wet past winters.
The politics should interesting and even amusing at times. Should be plenty of it given the given the economics of the affected zip codes.
Plus a few arsonists.
As for politians most are self interest pricks. However the tax payers would "surround the castle" and crucify them if they were forced to fund a water system big enough to even slow these fires down. You can only push so much water through a pipe and the more valves opened the less flow.
The lowest of scum in this tragedy are the looters. I hope they really drop the hammer on those bottom feeders
Why did it become unfashionable to shoot looters on sight.
Quote from: El Pescador on January 10, 2025, 09:25:19 PMI find these maps show the fire devastation in the LA Basin.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/39/7588-100125212236-39187111.jpeg)
These are from the San Jose Mercury News, I am a long-time subscriber, and I give the Merc News all credit, the above map was from yesterday's paper,
and here is one from today.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/39/7588-100125212236-391872103.jpeg)
Wayne
Calabasas and Pacific Palisades is a classic hockey stick graph and pretty ominous of the future and likely hood of dropped policyholders.
I have to keep an eye on mine. We are about 500ft from the designated fire zone State Farm listed after our own fire 10 yrs ago.
No news yet as to the cause of each of these fires?
I read where they caught a vagrant lighting fires but not the current big ones. I wish I knew where but it is all "LA" to me.
Quote from: Keta on January 11, 2025, 06:21:36 AMI read where they caught a vagrant lighting fires but not the current big ones. I wish I knew where but it is all "LA" to me.
People that live in that neighborhood subdued a guy on a bicycle carrying a torch. He was arrested and then later he was released due to lack of evidence. He didn't live in the area he was trolling with torch in hand, and news also said he was a homeless person
There is a time and place for vigilance committees and rope.
Quote from: Maxed Out on January 11, 2025, 06:33:15 AMQuote from: Keta on January 11, 2025, 06:21:36 AMI read where they caught a vagrant lighting fires but not the current big ones. I wish I knew where but it is all "LA" to me.
People that live in that neighborhood subdued a guy on a bicycle carrying a torch. He was arrested and then later he was released due to lack of evidence. He didn't live in the area he was trolling with torch in hand, and news also said he was a homeless person
I saw the clip of neighborhood people subdue him, zip tie his hands & detain him until the cops got there. It's amazing that evidently witnesses saw him light evergreen/Christmas trees with that torch but he was still released. Absolutely crazy! :o
Thankfully no one has defended the arsonist yet,they have rights too you know ::) Some folks get indicted for less :-X
Quote from: jgp12000 on January 11, 2025, 12:56:22 PMThankfully no one has defended the arsonist yet,they have rights too you know ::) Some folks get indicted for less :-X
What is there to defend? I spoke in defense of the water distribution system because it was being misunderstood.
A crazy person going around with a torch, less so.
I have watched a crackhead use a blowtorch for crack. So I guess there is one non-arson reason for him to have one. But in this current moment dont go riding around with it in hand?
There is nothing as of yet on the cause, but it seems like a firebug is running around. How they let that guy go if he was actively lighting a fire is anyone's guess given the situation.
The fire is burning some old-growth in the Palisades area. I don't recall that part of the coastline burning from the 80's onward. Nor have I heard any news reports on when the last time it burned either.
We are getting more wind this afternoon. Hope there is not another flareup.
Be safe guys.
Before this is all over I predict the powers to be will start eating their own. I think it may have already begun. 🙄
Here is a great explanation of the Santa Ana winds & how they get to 100 mph & their affect on the wildland fires.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_winds
And from this morning's San Jose Mercury News, a very good illustration of the winds from the Great Basin, across the High Sierra, then across the central valley, over the coastal mountain range into the LA Basin.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/39/7588-110125171304-39189654.jpeg)
Here in the SF Bay Area, our winds called the Diablo Winds, happen every year, but this year we received RAIN and the LA area has not. That is a major contributor to why the wildland fires took off so fast.
Wayne
It's getting harder and harder to bite my tongue.......
Here are a couple of photos sent to me by my Cal Fire spotter aircraft friend.
Reminds me of the photos he sent me of the Camp Fire in Paradise a few years back.
Get ready for unatanium insurance.
I'll be Back
Crab Pot - Your spotter friend (and any of the Air Attack folks for that matter) have some serious cajones and skill to be flying in these conditions. Last night was dead calm here in teh Riverbottom. About 10:00 it was like flipping a switch - constant 20 kts. - john
Here is the aircraft he fly's.
https://34c031f8-c9fd-4018-8c5a-4159cdff6b0d-cdn-endpoint.azureedge.net/-/media/calfire-website/what-we-do/fire-protection/aviation-program/ov-10-factsheet.pdf?rev=5b92d7b5ea324e2b969129753ded652e&hash=D85936109AE30DD43B7AE88DD3E5E9AB
He sent this a couple days ago when the heavies were all grounded due to the high winds.
As if things weren't bad enough:
https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/super-scooper-drone-collision-la-fire-canada-hnk-intl/index.html
>:(
Crab Pot - Classic. The Bronco was a Vietnam era spotter craft. And what it is doing now is straight in the wheelhouse from it's original mission design. Again, those guys are top level Badass...
Quote from: Brewcrafter on January 12, 2025, 04:30:40 AMCrab Pot - Classic. The Bronco was a Vietnam era spotter craft. And what it is doing now is straight in the wheelhouse from it's original mission design. Again, those guys are top level Badass...
I totally agree! Not meaning to hijack a serious thread but when I was flying insertion/extraction missions into Laos back in '71, and we were outside US artillery support, we often had OV 10 FAC's (Forward Air Controllers) in direct support. They could actually slow down to 90 knots and fly alongside the formation. And he always had a couple of AF F-4's or Navy/Marine A-6's flying high cover. 500 lb high drags and 20mm cannons are a nice thing to have in your back pocket. Especially if your only armament was 2 M-60D machine guns.
We also had push-pull O-2's (Cessna 337 Skymasters) as FAC's. All those guys were badass!
GA Mike
just checked. i have two cousins within miles of the fire zone. one is ok for sure. i am waiting to hear from the other.
Damn, I forgot where they lived. The canyon could be a flue.