Hi everyone, I've been a long time lurker on this forum and have just decided to make my account.
I fish every other day, mainly hunting Giant Snakeheads in the jungle, so my reel gets put through a lot of abuse from rain, mud, and heavy use so the maintenance tips I have learnt here are invaluable, thank you!
For my first post I thought I would share with you a recent modification I did to my 21 Daiwa Zillion HD. I had always been thinking of ways to increase drag as much of my fishing involves thumb-locking the spool to pull giants from heavy cover. I was looking at the puny drag washer and realized there was so much more room for drag material, so I cut a piece of carbontex and put it in the inner circle. Voila! I did not measure exactly how much, but a quick pull test by hand and I feel the drag has increased a 20% or so.
PXL_20250216_115651045.jpg
I know I'll probably increase the wear on my gears and bearings, but nothing should explode in the immediate future...right?
Landed my personal best on the same day I modded the reel, and it feels really good so far!
PXL_20250220_001932329.RAW-01.COVER~2.jpg
Damn, that's a huge snakehead!
Wow, nice fish, nice picture. Welcome to the site, Vogelspinnen. Supposedly drag surface area is important for heat dissipation, but drag pressure is more important for drag increase. Daiwa has pretty good quality metal in their higher-end reels.
Would love to visit Singapore someday. My wife lived in Malayisa for 11 years and loved going to that country.
Nice catch & thanks for the picture, also welcome from Sunny Western Australia, cheers Don.
Welcome! - john
Greetings, fellow angler, from Minnesota USA.
Frank
Welcome and nice modification to the drag .
Welcome aboard!
Best, Fred
Welcome from west Michigan
Dang that is a big fish
Caught my first one last year here in Michigan
Mine was around 13 inches
Howdy!! That's quite a fish!!
well done. welcome!!!!
What a way to ring in to the forum :al Innovative and functional modification and a huge snakehead. Warmest welcome from the mountains of Southern California. Bill
Quote from: Vogelspinnen on March 03, 2025, 04:14:48 AMLanded my personal best on the same day I modded the reel, and it feels really good so far!
Wow, what a beast! Reminds me of a Amazon Wolf fish. I would still use the thumb when forcing a big one from cover, it will relieve some stress on the gears.
Welcome aboard.
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome! Look forward to learning more from you all, I love how in-depth the knowledge on this forum goes.
Quote from: Gfish on March 03, 2025, 08:19:06 AMWow, nice fish, nice picture. Welcome to the site, Vogelspinnen. Supposedly drag surface area is important for heat dissipation, but drag pressure is more important for drag increase. Daiwa has pretty good quality metal in their higher-end reels.
Would love to visit Singapore someday. My wife lived in Malayisa for 11 years and loved going to that country.
Thank you that makes sense, I guess extra contact surface will give a little more drag too, just not as much as I expected. But the added smoothness even on dry drags is a bonus too!
Welcome to visit anytime, if you're looking to fish hit me up ;)
Quote from: nelz on March 04, 2025, 05:03:13 PMWow, what a beast! Reminds me of a Amazon Wolf fish. I would still use the thumb when forcing a big one from cover, it will relieve some stress on the gears.
Welcome aboard.
Thank you, and yes that's what I'm thinking too, I still use my thumb to take some stress off the gears and ARB, but the increase in drag does help especially during hooksets. Hope nothing blows up in the near future :p
Welcome from Salem va,,,,,, ;D
Nice snakehead!
The benefit you are reporting from adding an inner drag washer is puzzling.
Increasing the surface area does not increase the amount of sliding friction. So something else must be going on here.
The formula for sliding friction is simply the coefficient of friction for the two surface multiplied by the load pressing them together.
The amount of braking work per revolution is a function of distance traveled, which is the "average" circumference of the disk from inner to outer diameter. With a single drag washer, the larger the hole, the greater the amount of braking work per revolution for the same clamping load. This is one reason why they put larger rotors and not larger pads in performance car brakes.
This modification appears like you are making the hole smaller.
Here is one theory: Since the drag washers are not keyed or eared, they are capable of sliding against the face on either side. If it happens that one drag washer slides on the outward face, and the other on the inward face, you will get two drag surfaces for the same clamping load, and since one has a much smaller diameter, about a 20% improvement seems about right.
But if over time, they eventually both start sliding on the same side, you will see a decrease in drag over the single large washer, as you have decreased the "average" diameter. I guess that you could treat the surfaces with different substances to encourage the desired behavior.
Or if the drag star was bottoming out originally, if any new drag washers are a bit thicker, you may be simply adding more clamping load.
Or a fresh drag washer might increase the coefficient of friction.
Intentionally adding more clamping load can be also an option if the star threads are up for it. If the star is bottomming out, you can add an extra spacer washer or two, but you may lose the ability to loosen the drag all the way.
Note: I put "average" in quotes, because there is a proper formula for calculating surface distance traveled per revolution of a disk using inner and outer diameter. I think that I might have put this in another thread, but interested folk can find it by searching the web for velocity calculations for thrust washers.
Hope that you find this useful,
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on March 06, 2025, 01:00:32 AMvelocity calculations for thrust washers
Hope that you find this useful,
-J
Say "velocity calculations for thrust washers" 5 times quickly. ;D Dominick
Yeah Yeah--stay on the subject... Smile Dave
Quote from: Dominick on March 06, 2025, 09:34:12 PMQuote from: jurelometer on March 06, 2025, 01:00:32 AMvelocity calculations for thrust washers
Hope that you find this useful,
-J
Say "velocity calculations for thrust washers" 5 times quickly. ;D Dominick
Yeah Yeah--stay on the subject... Smile Dave
Good point. I guess it is possible to catch fish without doing the thrust washer velocity calculations. But how is that any fun?
I can always count on Dominick to keep me in line :)
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on March 06, 2025, 01:00:32 AMHope that you find this useful,
-J
You're gonna scare the new guy away :o
For the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove .
Quote from: jurelometer on March 06, 2025, 01:00:32 AMNice snakehead!
The benefit you are reporting from adding an inner drag washer is puzzling.
Increasing the surface area does not increase the amount of sliding friction. So something else must be going on here.
The formula for sliding friction is simply the coefficient of friction for the two surface multiplied by the load pressing them together.
The amount of braking work per revolution is a function of distance traveled, which is the "average" circumference of the disk from inner to outer diameter. With a single drag washer, the larger the hole, the greater the amount of braking work per revolution for the same clamping load. This is one reason why they put larger rotors and not larger pads in performance car brakes.
This modification appears like you are making the hole smaller.
Here is one theory: Since the drag washers are not keyed or eared, they are capable of sliding against the face on either side. If it happens that one drag washer slides on the outward face, and the other on the inward face, you will get two drag surfaces for the same clamping load, and since one has a much smaller diameter, about a 20% improvement seems about right.
But if over time, they eventually both start sliding on the same side, you will see a decrease in drag over the single large washer, as you have decreased the "average" diameter. I guess that you could treat the surfaces with different substances to encourage the desired behavior.
Or if the drag star was bottoming out originally, if any new drag washers are a bit thicker, you may be simply adding more clamping load.
Or a fresh drag washer might increase the coefficient of friction.
Intentionally adding more clamping load can be also an option if the star threads are up for it. If the star is bottomming out, you can add an extra spacer washer or two, but you may lose the ability to loosen the drag all the way.
Note: I put "average" in quotes, because there is a proper formula for calculating surface distance traveled per revolution of a disk using inner and outer diameter. I think that I might have put this in another thread, but interested folk can find it by searching the web for velocity calculations for thrust washers.
Hope that you find this useful,
-J
Thank you for the insight J, your reply has given me a lot of food for thought, so much so that I just dismantled the reel to go back to a single washer to see the results.
So on my pull test with my electronic scale, the single washer pulled a consistent 9lbs while the double washer pulled a consistent 11lbs. The double washer does seem to feel less smooth though. Of course the start drag is tightened by hand, and I honestly do not know if I might have tightened it the second time round just a wee bit more, so this test is by no means conclusive. Could there be an explanation for this?
My train of thought is that the more surface area means more contact between the materials which provides more friction, assuming that the pressure provided by the star drag is sufficient. The same way racing cars run slicks in dry weather, because they are trying to maximize contact with the road. In the cars case, the PSI would actually be even less with the slicks, since the pressure exerted on the tyres are the same, but spread out over more surface area now.
Quote from: quang tran on March 07, 2025, 04:06:34 PMFor the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove .
It definitely is, I might look to change to a reel with more drag in the future, but what I love about this reel is how comfortably it casts even weightless flukes. I have an Revo Beast with 30lbs of drag, and while that is great for the fight, casting that reel all day is really tiring.
So far I have pulled 16-20lb giants out of trees with my "thumb drag", and so far so good, since snakeheads have a lot of power but not much stamina, the fight is usually over in a few minutes.
If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.
Quote from: Vogelspinnen on March 08, 2025, 03:11:45 PMQuote from: quang tran on March 07, 2025, 04:06:34 PMFor the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove .
It definitely is, I might look to change to a reel with more drag in the future, but what I love about this reel is how comfortably it casts even weightless flukes. I have an Revo Beast with 30lbs of drag, and while that is great for the fight, casting that reel all day is really tiring.
So far I have pulled 16-20lb giants out of trees with my "thumb drag", and so far so good, since snakeheads have a lot of power but not much stamina, the fight is usually over in a few minutes.
If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.
I can't find another reel that can cast unweighted plastic better than Daiwa Zillion and I can't use baitcasting for heavy fish as my left hand is weak , if you use spinning so there are so many can do it
Quote from: Vogelspinnen on March 08, 2025, 03:07:49 PMMy train of thought is that the more surface area means more contact between the materials which provides more friction, assuming that the pressure provided by the star drag is sufficient.
It is a common misconception that surface area affects sliding friction. Folks on this site find it especially hard to believe. So you are in good company :)
Surface area does not affect dry sliding friction: Here is the formula:
f= uN
where:
f is friction
u is the coefficient of friction for the surface pair ( a number that defines the relative stickiness)
N is the force pressing the two surfaces together
Notice that surface area is not part of the equation. A crude explanation for this is that as you increase the surface area but do not increase the total pressure, the pressure on any given spot on the surface decreases proportionally, so you do gain any friction.
QuoteThe same way racing cars run slicks in dry weather, because they are trying to maximize contact with the road. In the cars case, the PSI would actually be even less with the slicks, since the pressure exerted on the tyres are the same, but spread out over more surface area now.
Friction is what happens when the tires slide (bad). What you are describing is traction, which has its own formulas and its own coefficient of traction. We generally don't care much about traction performance on a reel, just friction.
Traction gets really complicated really fast. There are lots of scientific papers on the topic that I haven't even glanced at, so I have nothing to offer on this topic.
If you look at the braking surfaces on a race car, which is closer to what we are dealing with on a reel, since it is using friction to apply braking forces, you will notice that the pads are quite small and located at the outer circumference of a large disk. Compared to a standard car, they did not change the braking surface area much, but they greatly increased the disk diameter.
You have changed the coefficient of friction and the clamping force to some degree on your drag - both of these will affect friction, so I don't think that we have found an exception to the basic friction formula here.
What you can do to get more drag is increase the number of drag surfaces by stacking more CF and keyed metal washers, or modify the spacers so that there is more room to tighten the star.
For myself, using a small reel on a species that is not going to run very far, I would prefer to thumb the spool, as it also protects the gear train as you have noted. Back in the days before high quality drags, reels were often fitted with a small flap of leather behind the spool to enable heavier thumbing without losing a layer of skin.
BTW- Jason started a new thread on the more sciency end of this discussion:
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39647.0/topicseen.html (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39647.0/topicseen.html)
Please keep posting and sharing your adventures. A big snakehead has always been on my bucket list. I tried once a long time ago when traveling through your part of the world, but came up empty. They are starting to get some decent sized ones here in the USA in the southeast, so it is becoming a more practical opportunity.
-J
Quote from: quang tran on March 08, 2025, 04:41:49 PMQuote from: Vogelspinnen on March 08, 2025, 03:11:45 PMQuote from: quang tran on March 07, 2025, 04:06:34 PMFor the size of snake head you catch Daiwa 21 Zillion HD is under size .You can win if not too much cover . I would go with bigger reel rather than try increase drag, that reel only rated 10lbs drag and snake head require quickly pull out of cove .
It definitely is, I might look to change to a reel with more drag in the future, but what I love about this reel is how comfortably it casts even weightless flukes. I have an Revo Beast with 30lbs of drag, and while that is great for the fight, casting that reel all day is really tiring.
So far I have pulled 16-20lb giants out of trees with my "thumb drag", and so far so good, since snakeheads have a lot of power but not much stamina, the fight is usually over in a few minutes.
If you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.
I can't find another reel that can cast unweighted plastic better than Daiwa Zillion and I can't use baitcasting for heavy fish as my left hand is weak , if you use spinning so there are so many can do it
Same here, which is why I mostly use left hand reels now. I have considered spinning too, but I do a lot of jungle fishing and I can't cast spinning reels accurately.
A lot of the guys here run the ATC combat, I'm considering that and the 13 Fishing reels too
Quote from: jurelometer on March 08, 2025, 05:08:22 PMFriction is what happens when the tires slide (bad). What you are describing is traction, which has its own formulas and its own coefficient of traction. We generally don't care much about traction performance on a reel, just friction.
Traction gets really complicated really fast. There are lots of scientific papers on the topic that I haven't even glanced at, so I have nothing to offer on this topic.
If you look at the braking surfaces on a race car, which is closer to what we are dealing with on a reel, since it is using friction to apply braking forces, you will notice that the pads are quite small and located at the outer circumference of a large disk. Compared to a standard car, they did not change the braking surface area much, but they greatly increased the disk diameter.
You have changed the coefficient of friction and the clamping force to some degree on your drag - both of these will affect friction, so I don't think that we have found an exception to the basic friction formula here.
What you can do to get more drag is increase the number of drag surfaces by stacking more CF and keyed metal washers, or modify the spacers so that there is more room to tighten the star.
For myself, using a small reel on a species that is not going to run very far, I would prefer to thumb the spool, as it also protects the gear train as you have noted. Back in the days before high quality drags, reels were often fitted with a small flap of leather behind the spool to enable heavier thumbing without losing a layer of skin.
BTW- Jason started a new thread on the more sciency end of this discussion:
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39647.0/topicseen.html (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,39647.0/topicseen.html)
Please keep posting and sharing your adventures. A big snakehead has always been on my bucket list. I tried once a long time ago when traveling through your part of the world, but came up empty. They are starting to get some decent sized ones here in the USA in the southeast, so it is becoming a more practical opportunity.
-J
[/quote]
Thank you for taking the effort to explain this to me, it's still hard to wrap my head around it but it does make sense! I'll be following the thread closely.
For now whatever drag I have still serves me well. I really only need that crazy power during hooksets (to get that thick wire into the bony skull) and when the fish dives for cover. Good luck with your snakehead hunt, they are really fun fish to find and fight!
I wish they invaded to Texas water ,they fight good and taste good also .There are alligator gar here that fight good also but don't take lure as snake head
What Jurelometer is describing is...hard to wrap anyones head around including mine. But think of it this way, my 2007 Honda Accord has some pretty nice brakes. My 2025 ZL1 Corvette (get real, I could never own one of those!) has "big brakes" but when you bust them apart - giant discs but the pads are not a whole hell of a lot bigger than the pads on my 1976 Dodge Dart - BUT - they are much further out from the center. The F1/car guys call it "swept area". I amd glad we have members experimenting like this - thats what makes the forum the best! - john
Quote from: Vogelspinnen on March 08, 2025, 03:11:45 PMIf you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.
Have you ever heard about the Daiwa Shrapnel reel? It was actually designed for your type of fishing. I have one and love it! It's so beautiful that I hardly ever actually use it, but those times it has been in salt water. It's overkill for the fresh-water species I target, but would be just the ticket for those monster snakeheads.
I landed this nice snook with it (old photo). From a pier, these fish will break you off on the pilings in a heartbeat! The reel performed flawlessly.
Op,
Question:
Are you fishing in Singapore ?
Asking for a friend :-)
Quote from: nelz on March 11, 2025, 04:06:51 PMHave you ever heard about the Daiwa Shrapnel reel?
Not commenting on the quality of the reel, just the quality of the marketing, but I can't hold back:
Shrapnel, noun: Small fragments of anything, esp. pieces of metal, resulting from an impact or explosion.We have a new leader in the most unfortunate reel name contest!
The Penn Wrath now slides into second place.
Coming soon: The Jurelometer Reels line for 2025 includes exciting new models! Be on the lookout for the
Pandemic, the
Obsolete, the
Dismember (a spinner of course), and the super high end
Unsupported with
POS(TM) technology. I plan on owning the podium!
-J
wow. catching those snakeheads sounds like jungle warfare..
welcome, and thanks, to vogelspinnen for the pics and interesting discussion. I'd love to see more of what it looks like on the river..
the only big powerful fish near me are carp, and I usually catch those on a fly rod with an Abu Delta reel, which has a disc drag similar to a car..
my neighbor who likes to fish with the latest tech, said about my Delta, "nice reel George Jetson !"
Quote from: jurelometer on March 13, 2025, 04:38:01 PMNot commenting on the quality of the reel, just the quality of the marketing, but I can't hold back
Yeah, I agree the name's kinda dumb, but the reel's awesome. It actually replaced the Daiwa "Snakehead", only it's waaay better.
As far as names go though, I think the Pro Gear "Violator" gives it a run for it's money (translates to "rapist" in Spanish, yikes).
Quote from: nelz on March 11, 2025, 04:06:51 PMQuote from: Vogelspinnen on March 08, 2025, 03:11:45 PMIf you have a good recommendation I'm all ears! Having a reel with more power would definitely be a good thing.
Have you ever heard about the Daiwa Shrapnel reel? It was actually designed for your type of fishing. I have one and love it! It's so beautiful that I hardly ever actually use it, but those times it has been in salt water. It's overkill for the fresh-water species I target, but would be just the ticket for those monster snakeheads.
I landed this nice snook with it (old photo). From a pier, these fish will break you off on the pilings in a heartbeat! The reel performed flawlessly.
Haven't heard of it, but now I have! The drag definitely sounds tasty, but it's the casting that is the problem for me. I have an Abu Garcia weighing in at over 300g too, and it gets tiring real quickly flicking lures with one hand or working floating pencils. Which is why I prioritise a small reel over raw power. Best case scenario is if I have both!
That's a really nice snook, I've seen videos of them taking lures near pilings and holy heck they are fast!
Quote from: Gobi King on March 13, 2025, 01:59:02 PMOp,
Question:
Are you fishing in Singapore ?
Asking for a friend :-)
Yes I am :P
Quote from: DougK on March 13, 2025, 05:12:00 PMwow. catching those snakeheads sounds like jungle warfare..
welcome, and thanks, to vogelspinnen for the pics and interesting discussion. I'd love to see more of what it looks like on the river..
the only big powerful fish near me are carp, and I usually catch those on a fly rod with an Abu Delta reel, which has a disc drag similar to a car..
my neighbor who likes to fish with the latest tech, said about my Delta, "nice reel George Jetson !"
I have no knowledge of fly reels, but that's a wicked looking reel! I definitely haven't seen one like this. Is there a specific reason for it's shape? And that's a chonky carp! Are they invasive where you are?
Here is a photo of one of the places I fish in. It's absolutely beautiful to look at, but getting there means trekking through lots of jungle, vines, mud and thorny plants :o
looks beautiful, but intimidating ;-)
yes, the carp are invasive, but they have mostly settled in by now, and coexist with the other species reasonably well.
The Delta was some Abu executive's brainstorm (https://www.realsreels.com/reels/fly/default.html)..
Len Borgstom wrote,
I do not know if i ever told you why the DELTA was made in that delta (triangular) shape? If you are a fly fisherman, i am sure that you have experienced how the fly line gets caught behind the reel when you shoot the line. By making the reel triangular, this problem will be reduced. Ideally the reel should come as close to the rod as possible.
Quote from: DougK on March 14, 2025, 05:59:19 PMyes, the carp are invasive, but they have mostly settled in by now, and coexist with the other species reasonably well.
I once read that now, nobody can remember what their surrounding aquatic environment was like before carp. Written accounts say the clear water was beautiful. It's just like how nobody can remember the forests when the native americns were managing them. Beautiful open understories.
Welcome! Sounds & looks like the spots Jeremy Wade would fish.Not sure if he or someone else used to slingshot fish feed into unknown waters.I do it sometimes just to survey a new spot,even in my own pond.I use Purina Aquamax 500 feed (41% protein),the 3/16" pellet is small enough for most fish.
A 6 mm fish food pellet can be shot in an Airsoft gun. I don't know the long-term consequences and the pellet leaves some residue behind.
Quote from: Vogelspinnen on March 14, 2025, 01:20:27 PMHere is a photo of one of the places I fish in. It's absolutely beautiful to look at, but getting there means trekking through lots of jungle, vines, mud and thorny plants :o
Wow, looks like a fishing heaven! Worth the trek to run into those monster snakeheads.
Btw, yeah the (Ryoga)Shrapnel is definitely not designed for flicking lures with one hand, it's pretty heavy for a low profile reel.