Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn Senator Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: elcarlstono on March 07, 2025, 07:54:27 PM

Title: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: elcarlstono on March 07, 2025, 07:54:27 PM
I'm upgrading the drag on my 114H, from the 3 thick asbestos washers to the 10 piece kit.
Looking back at some other threads there is mention of adding a washer under the main gear. Specifically, Alan mentions adding a "#6-114" in this thread (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,38470.msg453692.html#msg453692) , which I am unable to find. 
It does currently have the #4-115 fiber washer already,
Thanks, y'all.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: MACflyer on March 07, 2025, 08:41:19 PM
You can use the fiber washer you have. I believe Alan suggests the drag washer under the gear to get a few more pounds of drag. The new five drag washers should get you well over 15 pounds of smooth drag.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 07, 2025, 08:47:01 PM
Sometimes a drag washer works, sometimes you have to reduce the OD.  Another alternitive is a delrin washer.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: elcarlstono on March 09, 2025, 09:43:37 PM
I went with the Delrin washer as right now I don't have huge drag requirements.  I did complete the rebuild but I have a lot of free space and the tension spring is flopping around and not engaged. I know I got all the washers in there. Thicker washers needed, maybe?
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: alantani on March 09, 2025, 10:03:42 PM
nah, you're fine.  the fish will never know!!!! ;D
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: thorhammer on March 10, 2025, 02:38:30 AM
Nice. Carlton. I'll be home this weekend and I think I have some Abu blocks in the truck for you.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Gfish on March 10, 2025, 03:08:55 PM
That's alota space. Maybe there should be a thick wavy washer between the star and the "top hat" drag spacer.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 10, 2025, 03:16:40 PM
I prefer bellville washers or keyed washers for spacers.  It looks like another CF and metal washer might fit if there is room in the gear and sideplate clearance.  If the top washer is eared and there is room a CF and keyed washer works. If it is a keyed washer it does not gave to ne in the gear to work.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Gfish on March 10, 2025, 03:20:18 PM
Yeah, that would be a better first thing to try.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 10, 2025, 03:22:58 PM
Both work though.  T do not like that much star travel and set up my reels with mimimun gap.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Hardy Boy on March 10, 2025, 03:56:16 PM
I agree with Lee. I keep the gap to a min.

Cheers

Todd
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Gfish on March 10, 2025, 05:15:16 PM
Extra drag washers might give you more smoothness and range, while a heavy wave washer would probably only increase range.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 10, 2025, 05:35:59 PM
Yup, I like to have some spring tension.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: elcarlstono on March 11, 2025, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: thorhammer on March 10, 2025, 02:38:30 AMNice. Carlton. I'll be home this weekend and I think I have some Abu blocks in the truck for you.
Awesome.  I'll trade you a Senator rod for them :D
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: elcarlstono on March 11, 2025, 05:58:46 PM
Here's the way I loaded it: 10 stack in "usual" order(CF,K,CF,E,CF,K,CF,E,CF,K), topped by the thick wavy washer, followed by the "hat",  then star, then thin wavy, then handle.  After the original post I replaced one of the replacement keyed washers with the one original thick one and that helped me a little, but I've still got about another thin washer worth of play. The original eared washers are the same thickness as the replacements from the kit, so no gain there.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: elcarlstono on March 11, 2025, 06:00:42 PM
I did not have a felt washer.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Brewcrafter on March 11, 2025, 10:07:21 PM
Ecarl - If I understand correctly, you have the assembled drag stack, then a thin wavy UNDER the Drag Hat between it and the top drag metal.  I will defer to wiser minds on here with more experience, and I do have a preference for "external drag" models like what you have (don't ask me why; I don't have an answer!)  Anyhow, I want that "hat" to have full, even contact with the top washer of the stack, and a wave washer will not allow that unless fully compressed.  I want all of the "slop" to be taken up between the star and the top pressure surface of the hat (wave washer, belleville, whatever). And as The Boss says, having that extra thread gap in there the fish will not know.  What I have done (situations can vary) is thrown in an extra keyed metal on the top of the drag stack (does NOTHING for drag, but takes up space) and then have any bellevilles, wavys, etc between the star and the top of the hat (or for non external drag models, the top of the spacer sleeve).  Not saying my way is the only way, just the way I approach it. - john
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 11, 2025, 11:14:41 PM
That is how I set up my open drag reels too John. The top washer can not rub on the side plate on this type of drag setup.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Donnyboat on March 12, 2025, 12:04:09 AM
Yes john & Lee are correct, I also like to have delrin washer between the wave washer & the star, it doe`nt have to be very thick, that will make it easier to screw the star down in a hurry, a wave washer above the star is a waste of time, & they tend to go rusty, keep well have fun, & leave some fish in the water for us, cheers Don.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Maxed Out on March 12, 2025, 01:40:36 AM
Yes John,Lee,and Donny are correct. And the wavy washer I see above the star, would be better served under the star
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 12, 2025, 02:10:02 AM
My poor tired old eyes did not see that Ted. 
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: elcarlstono on March 12, 2025, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: Brewcrafter on March 11, 2025, 10:07:21 PMEcarl - If I understand correctly, you have the assembled drag stack, then a thin wavy UNDER the Drag Hat between it and the top drag metal. 
No, I have a thick metal wavy on top of the drag stack, under the hat.  Then the thin is under the handle.

Quote from: Maxed Out on March 12, 2025, 01:40:36 AMYes John,Lee,and Donny are correct. And the wavy washer I see above the star, would be better served under the star
I'll give it a try, but I was just following the diagram on that one.  It fit my understanding that the purpose of the thin wavy was to keep tension between the star and the handle when the drag is engaged.  If the wavy is under the star then my first few turns of the star will be puttimg more work into flattening the wavy instead of engaging the drag. 
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 12, 2025, 01:31:06 PM
Spring washer are to put pressure on the dragstack.  Wavy washers do not work as well as bellvile washers. My personal reels have bellvilles.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Brewcrafter on March 12, 2025, 01:37:25 PM
Quote from: elcarlstono on March 12, 2025, 11:46:44 AMIt fit my understanding that the purpose of the thin wavy was to keep tension between the star and the handle when the drag is engaged.
Yes, and also in the event that you back the star off too far (jammed against the handle) it helps prevent you from actually jamming the star against the handle.
Quote from: elcarlstono on March 12, 2025, 11:46:44 AMIf the wavy is under the star then my first few turns of the star will be puttimg more work into flattening the wavy instead of engaging the drag.
That is what you do want to happen, and here is why (hoping I don't cobble the explanation): Any drag has a fixed range, all the way from Zero (no drag) to eyeball popping tight (maximum drag).  Having a spring (in the form of a wave washer, belleville, whatever) increases the number of turns of the drag star to go from minimum to maximum since until that spring is flattened you will not be having full clamping load applied.  So in theory you will have more/better control of how you increase/decrease drag during a fight preventing one from accidentally making a small turn of the star and massively increasing drag beyond the desired level (and possible pulling hook) or backing drag off too far (instant backlash/rat nest). 
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Maxed Out on March 12, 2025, 06:36:03 PM
It seems you are missing the thick wavy washer under the star
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Keta on March 12, 2025, 06:44:50 PM
Part # 8-115

Ted prompted me to look at the 114H schematic and it shows a thin wavy washer (part #  8-114) between the star and handle and a thick one (8-115) under the star.
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Maxed Out on March 12, 2025, 07:08:48 PM
 That's the one Lee

 8-115 is the thick wavy washer that goes under the star
Title: Re: 114H drag upgrade
Post by: Gfish on March 12, 2025, 10:50:45 PM
You could play around with the drag washer placement e-c-s, test various arrangements and see what you like...