Knuckle-buster just isn't right. It assumes the worst. What moniker best and easily identifies this reel type?
I used "direct-drive" for a while but was corrected on that, it being a term for specific Shakespeare reel designs that turn the levelwind right from the handle without an interim pinion -hence Direct Drive.
So...
"Old Casting Reel" -OCR? Nope, "old' could mean 1970, or 1980, or..., for some.
"Constant Mesh Casting Reel" CMCR? Unwieldy.
"Handle spinning whirly thingy"? HSWT?
I'm at a loss.
What describes a casting reel in which the handle turns, remains meshed, with the gears? We can quickly call the new fangled ones, "Modern" or Modern Freespool and people get it. Old Non-Freespool? ONF? Not quite satisfied. Any other ideas?
I don't know what to call these reel , I thought your guy should have better word to call
Is it too late for me to question the person who said direct drive only refers to certain Shakespeare models? It kinda feels like the need for a new term stems from that distinction. Which leads me to ask about the certainty of that distinction that seems to be taken for a given.
They have been called knuckle busters for a many decades. Why change?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 28, 2025, 10:20:40 PMIs it too late for me to question the person who said direct drive only refers to certain Shakespeare models? It kinda feels like the need for a new term stems from that distinction. Which leads me to ask about the certainty of that distinction that seems to be taken for a given.
Never too late as far as I'm concerned. I was happy using "DD" as it sufficed in my mind. I guess I'll have to see if I can find the first use of "direct drive". Did Shakespeare coin that term when they introduced their Direct-Drive reels? They may have. I can see it could be confusing, or at least inaccurate, to say all old casting reels are direct-drive.
What most separates a "modern" casting reel from the old reels are, taken together: AR, FS, and Drag (for fish fighting, not ABL). These together are what made modern revolving spool casting reels so easy to use. I guess things went "modern" with the Ambassadeur 5000? Everyone had to follow suit. And the old knuckle-buster was relegated to the flea market.
Ah! How about Revolving Handle Casting Reel? Kindof a mouthful I know.
OK, at Jason's prompting, I looked into the first usage of "direct drive" referring to fishing reels.
But I first looked into the def of DD in engineering:
-"A direct-drive mechanism is a mechanism design where the force or torque from a prime mover is transmitted directly to the effector device (such as the drive wheels of a vehicle) without involving any intermediate couplings such as a gear train or a belt."
-force applied... "without any gearbox or speed reduction (multiplied gear ratio) present."
So, none of our reels, outside of single action fly reels, are true DD mechanisms!
In the fishing world, DD is not uncommonly used to describe the old knuckle-buster, revolving handle, casting reels. Shakespeare's usage is probably closer to the true definition, at least in terms of an 1894 patent stating: "...the direct drive of the crank handle to the level wind worm gear." However, Shakespeare's "DD" line of reels use a multiplying drive train so technically they are not true DD mechanisms either. Looking at the 1973D schematic shows that the handle is DD to the worm gear, but uses a gear train (one pinion) to move the spool. So, the handle and spool connection is technically not DD.
The Fishing Museum (online) states:
"The very first reels were called winders or winches...they can be further divided into direct drive reels (single action or 1:1) and early multipliers."
So, none of our reels, outside of single action fly reels, are true DD mechanisms.
I was kind of liking "revolving handle casting reels" until I realize... handles revolve on all reels!
Knuckle-buster might just say it best. :(
I'm not satisfied. >:(
As far as I'm concerned, and yes you can take this to the bank (results vary) a direct drive reel is one without a drag or anti reverse. Turning the handle turns the spool, and the spool turns the handle. Either 1:1 or multiplier. Some reels can have a freespool and still be considered a DD because they don't have a drag or anti reverse. Bam. Defined.
If the reel has no star drag, but has a freespool lever, then its known as a freespool reel, or direct drive, but anyone thats ever fished such a reel, understands why its also called a knuckle buster
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 29, 2025, 01:19:29 AMTurning the handle turns the spool, and the spool turns the handle.
Herein lies the problem... Turning the handle does not
directly turn the spool, it turns a gear train -albeit only a two gear train (main gear and a spool pinion. Thus, an engineer would say it's not a DD mechanism. Then there's an additional gear on the main gear that turns another pinion that turns the worm gear. On the Shakes' "DD" reels, as they call them, the main gear shaft attaches directly to the worm gear (see pic), making at least that connection DD. However, a gear train -a pinion- is required to turn the spool too when the handle is turned.
I'm back to square one.
Quote from: Maxed Out on November 29, 2025, 03:43:40 AM...anyone thats ever fished such a reel, understands why its also called a knuckle buster
That is at least something everyone gets.
How about Constant Mesh Casting Reel? That is at least accurate in engineering terms. Or Bi-Directional Casting Reel. :(
...ok,simple correction.... its a multiplier direct drive reel...wink wink
Heres an example of a penn box label, that is for a model with no star drag, and a freespool lever. Penn simply called it a free spool model
So I asked Google AI: "What term describes a reel in which the handle turns the spool and always remaining meshed with the gears?"
Response:
The term that describes a reel where the handle directly turns the spool and always remains engaged with the gear train is a direct drive reel. These are often referred to as "single-action" reels, particularly in fly fishing, as one complete revolution of the handle typically results in one complete revolution of the spool (a 1:1 gear ratio).
The main characteristics of these reels are:
-Direct engagement: The handle is mechanically linked to the spool through a simple gear system that is always engaged.
-Lack of multiplying gears: Unlike baitcasting or spinning reels which use a gear train to spin the spool multiple times for a single handle crank (e.g., 5.1:1, 6.4:1 gear ratios), single-action reels typically operate on a 1:1 ratio.
-"Knuckle buster" potential: Without a sophisticated drag system or anti-reverse mechanism to allow the spool to turn independently, a fast-running fish can cause the handle to spin rapidly in reverse, potentially striking the angler's knuckles. Anglers often use their palm to apply pressure to the spool rim for drag control.
So, I guess what we have is a Multiple Knuckle Buster! MKB!!!! (Exclamation points could provide ratio.) Dang! It just gets worse! ;D
Let's call it catfish reel ,I only use these for catfish and most catfisherman prefer them
Paul, maybe you need to take a deeper dive into the winch aspect. :)
Wishing you the best of luck in fixing this mess Paul. I'll buy into whatever you say.
BTW, anti-reverse and drag are sort of codependent. It isn't very practical to have one without the other
Anti reverse but no drag is a winch. I'm trying to remember the name of the early "drag" that was an attachment on the handle of a knuckle buster.
This is a fun thread. We are trying to posthumously categorize these reels based on what they don't have. At the time they were described differently. Like my old hendryx: a pillar-style reel. The Penn 165; a freespool reel.
To me, the direct drive-ness is that there's no drag in between. In modern senator for example. Or an 80 year old one, it's the same. Loosely speaking the handle turns the drag which turns the main gear which turns the pinion and thus the spool. In a DD reel, as I define them, the handle is permanently connected to the main gear. You turn the handle/main; and the pinion, and therefore the spool, turns a set number of times every time. Where a senator with a loose drag and a big fish could see handle turns that don't move the fish.
A direct drive reel would be when the handle is directly connected to the spool shaft. Penn reels with no star drag, still have a main gear and a pinion gear
This is a kinda fun thread. I have 1920's Ocean City that's called a "FREE SPOOL". All the goodies except a clicker. So it doesn't count, but is the oldest I've seen with that term and it's the model name.
Yes, fun thread.
quang tran, but I'd have to call mine a "bass reel".
Tom, I didn't have to go into that winch dive. Jason did it for me.
Steve, thanks for the faith you have in my judgement.
Maxed Out, but the Shakespeare Direct Drive models -that started this whole issue- are DD onto the worm gear. The spool is connected to the handle via gear train. So even it is not a true DD mechanism, according to the engineering definition. No I'm not expecting a rebuttal. Just sweeping you into my quandary. You see I published an article in The Reel News for ORCA and had some feedback (a well meaning correction from someone I hold in esteem) that my use of the term DD was erroneous and referred to the Shakespeare Direct Drive line of reels. But, apparently that isn't really wholly correct either.
J, there were a few: the William's Drag, and Cub Handle come to mind. The posthumous point is interesting and true. It's the inevitable job of those in the future to sort out the past I suppose. What do they say, "Those that do not remember the past are destined to re-live it." Is that what we're doing here? ;D
I like your thinking on DD'ness. Functionally speaking, it works, at least for the vast majority of fishers/casters, collectors out there. Pretty much sums up, well, why I used the term so comfortably. Until I was busted! But it turns out the truth underlying it all is that none of our reels, save winches, use a true DD mechanism. The quandary is having a correct term that isn't a mouthful, like knuckle-busting thumb-burner?
I guess I'm just going to have to call em "old casting reels...aka "knuckle busters". :'(
The easy part is identifying a "modern" casting reel: AR, Drag, FS. Many modern casters would add in ABL (thinking magnetics and DC) but effective ABL is not new. Tournament distance casters using the old reels could throw a stock bass reel (albeit supertuned) over 200ft. I've hit 165 myself (Pfl 1894L, super-tuned) and probably could break 200 if I decided to get obsessive about it. But I don't tend to get obsessive about stuff. :)
Bass reel ? may be 40 years ago . Roland Martin use Ambassadeur to fish with Johnson spoon but still drop to spinning when fish with Rapalas . I can't cast unweighted worm with this reel
I use both too. Probably spinning more than casting, overall. However, my "old casting reels" can cast unweighted worms. But, esp with slim finesse sized worms, certainly not as far as a braid filled spinning reel. Then again, I more apt to fish an "unweighted" finesse worm on a drop-shot rig.
I generally prefer casting reels for heavier duty applications: heavy cover, heavy weights, big fish, lures that pull. Burning spinnerbaits and crankbaits can be a lot of work for spinning reels, not to mention my wrists. So far, I'm going easy with most of my "old casting reels" as they are not likely as durable as modern casting reels. So I am using them for Light to Medium applications so far. I do have some Pflueger 1573 Supreme's that have been described as "nearly indestructible". Remains to be seen on that.
Each to his own. I very seldom use a spinning reel these days, though I grew up on one until age 16. Today with the exception of a Coxe 25N, I use no free spool casting reels. There was a day (I'm 82) when a free spool bass-sized casting reel was rare, though saltwater reels were often free spool. Now that modern casting reels are the norm, I find myself explaining to younger fellows that I use only "non free spool" reels--LOL.
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Nice rod and reel and nice bass too , Sir
That's impressive,,,, ;) big bass,,,, i got 20 some knucklebusters but don't fish them
Looks like the good ol' "backwards bomber" Sonnett. A great deep diving crawdad imitation. Correction; hard too see, but magnified it doesn't look like one. Has 2 sets of eyes?
How about; non-free-spool multiplier. Maybe that accounts for the pinion-main gear combo?
So I'm gonna argue that since the term "direct drive" is something of a misnomer for all but the most basic fly reels, on a purely technical level, including that Shakespeare model, then to me it's still fair game to use for any casting reel without a gear sleeve.
There's a lot of terminology out there that isn't technically accurate at to the purists on its most basic level. It shows up a lot in my industry that there's a lot of terms that just stuck.
A wide format LaserJet printer is still called a plotter. Construction plans are often still referred to as blueprints even though ammonia hasn't been involved, and nothing is blue, for decades. I hear the term "directional bore" a lot. but technically it's either a directional drill or a jack and bore. 2 very different things, but the term is still around. Theres a million examples. If someone asks for a bandaid but you give them a generic/different brand adhesive bandage they're not gonna choose to bleed out because they asked for a bandaid and you failed them. You can go further. If you knock on the door and someone says "who is it" saying "it's me" is wrong. The only technically sound answer is "it is I." But I feel like that'll make any reasonable person less likely to open the door not more so. The fact that one can make a technical argument against a term (a really flawed argument in this case) doesn't mean the term is going away.
"No! It's only a directional bore if you're using drill bits from one company who misses the name in marketing material 80 years ago." That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
So I'm gonna come full circle and say that the idea that an early multiplier reel can't be called a "direct drive" reel bc a small handful of Shakespeare reels tried to claim the name for something that's also not technically"direct drive", is utter horse (edit: I phrased it the way I did to intentionally be divisive and stir the pot but I'm changing the ending because I don't want to sound rude to people whose opinion I value)
IMHO, the term direct drive means one turn of the handle equals one turn of the spool. So either the handle is directly connected to the spool shaft, or the spool perimeter
In the pacific northwest, and western canadian coast, the most common reels used for salmon fishing are all direct drive, and also have a drag knob. When a fish runs, the knobs spin with the spool, and no, its not a fly reel, and no "casting" with this reel. This type of reel is where the term "knucklebuster" comes from. Anyone that fishes this kind of reel knows why its called a knucklebuster...including myself. I've been fishing these reels for 35+ years for salmon, and theres no "pump and reel", its just reeling, and knowing when to let go of the knob, when the fish decides to run
I took a knob off this one, so I dont get 2 knobs smacking my fingers when a salmon rips the knob from my fingers
Shimano,Daiwa, and Islander are the manufacturers of this type of reel. They catch lotta salmon, large and small
Ok,,,it's part of the challenge using different antique gear,,,, ;) if not just buy a raptor,,,last trip to the lake i had a 30's bridge city and a 1914 bamboo rod,,,but the raptor is 2 speed,,,, ;D
Great thread, and a lot of wisdom here. One of my other bad habits (other than spending too much on fishing equipment) is to peruse classic "used book stores" and swoop up old books regarding sportfishing (and other stuff). An older term that I have seen, and that I think relates directly to Ted's observation, is that back in the day it seemed common that some reels were referred to as "multipliers", I assume referencing that relationship of a main gear/pinion as opposed to a direct setup? - john
Yeah. For me it would come down to a true direct-drive(Ted's example), or a multiplier-direct drive with 2 gears and no spool disengagement option, but this example with 2 gears would not be an "exact" direct drive with a straight handle to spool connection.
I have an Ocean City 970,is it a Knuckle Buster? I will never use it,does anyone have something to trade?
Looks like it. No free-spool, but a level-winder. Wonder how it casts? Looks like it might have some kinda cast control.
I bough one in the 80 never can cast with it
I'm soooo confused! :))
Jason, you really had me laughing. "It is I." Actually it's now "me". So, in some things, convention seems to win out in long run. Anyway I'd love to agree and continue using DD for those... non-freespool casting reels. :) Frankly, I don't know what to call em. "Multiplier" covers nearly all reels now, except DD's. "Old casting reel" I guess it'll have to be. SO far the only time I've had a knuckle "busted" (rapped) was with a DD single action flyreel tethered to a surprise big bluefish. It hurt!
The lure Bill has there I believe is the Shakespeare Mouse.
Love the DD salmon! I found catching (smallish) stripers on DD (1:1) fly reels on a long lever allowed me to smoothly "torque-reel" (what I called it) them straight in. Worked like a charm, however then I had completely green stripers at my feet. I'd rather wrestle em on the rod than in my arms!
quang tran, that's a Pfl Akron. Good reel. I came to find that all my old casting reels (in good condition), after proper servicing, a full spool of line, and properly set, will cast 100ft. Looks to be a "L" model, with aluminum spool flanges. Should cast pretty well. Try oil only, no grease, clicker off, balance the spool so it just barely clicks side-to-side, and keep your thumb on it. Weeeeeee!! And, just in case, watch your knuckles!
Sensei Paul,
What brand and model number is the reel in your picture?
Thank you,
Quote from: sandbar on December 16, 2025, 01:53:33 AMSensei Paul,
What brand and model number is the reel in your picture?
Thank you,
Streamlite I bet.
Sensei Steve bets correctly. :)
Hi, sandbar. It's a Langley Streamlite 310 KC.