I'm relatively new to the vintage reel hobby. I'm in it to get reels to use for my fishing, rather than as a collector. I started with a few Ambassadeurs, which work very well for the catfish and carp fishing I love to do with my son. Then I got a Penn 706z, which I plan to use for the surf fishing trips we go on a couple times each year. Maybe I could also get a large spinning rod and try the 706z for catfishing in the river. Last week I got 2 Surfmasters (150 and 250) from the auction site. I plan to use the 150 for catfish, carp, and occasional surf fishing. The 250 might be too large for fresh water, so I will probably save that one for the surf. These are my first Penn conventionals, so I am excited to work on them!
The 150 came with a plastic spool. I've been on the lookout for an aluminum spool (29L-150) for a few days, but haven't found one. I've also looked for a cheap 150, 160, or 165 that already has an aluminum spool, but the ones I see for sale seem to have plastic spools or the heavy metal spools. Will keep looking every few days.
I will post pictures of the process of getting the 150 ready for fishing here, but first I have a few questions...
I've read that mono will sometimes crush the old Penn plastic spools. I plan to use mono main line. Would the plastic spool be ok if I back the mono main line with Dacron line? If so, where can I get Dacron line? Should I use the Dacron fly line backing I see for sale at various places, or is there another kind of Dacron one available?
Did Newell ever make an aluminum spool that would fit a 150/160/165? If so, what is its part number?
Thanks!
Mark
If you find a penn-made aluminum spool for one of these buy a lottery ticket that day.
There's some size 100 width spools in aluminum out there. But you'd need a 30-49 base and those are still out there but getting hard to come by.
https://www.prochallenger.com/product/pc-29l-100-aluminum-spool-for-penn-reels/56?cs=true&cst=custom
If you wanna continue down the rabbit hole Get yourself a steel gear sleeve (the absolute weakest point on these reels) and a carbon drag kit. You might still be able to find some 5 stack kits, these take the penn 60 sized drags. Aluminum Frame bars are also available and very well warranted for these. Newell made some too.
Dacron or braid would be fine for backing on a plastic spool
I don't know if Newell made a spool but I wouldn't be surprised if they did, probably not many though since those weren't hugely popular
Tiburon made frames for them if you want to go that route
Here is a good used Newell aluminum 150 spool. It is $20 plus $6 for shipping by USPS Ground Advantage with tracking.
If you want it please PM me your shipping address and let me know how you would like to send payment.
Thank you,
Randy
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 05, 2026, 04:25:44 PMIf you find a penn-made aluminum spool for one of these buy a lottery ticket that day.
Hmm... Doesn't sound promising. I've seen them for squidders, and for 155s and 200s, but the 150/160/165 size doesn't seem as popular.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 05, 2026, 04:25:44 PMIf you wanna continue down the rabbit hole Get yourself a steel gear sleeve (the absolute weakest point on these reels) and a carbon drag kit.
Already ordered carbontex washers from smoothdrag. Are the stock gear sleeves particularly weak? I'll have to look into the steel ones, maybe just for fun since this is my first Penn conventional.
Thanks for the info, Jason!
Quote from: Vintage Offshore Tackle on February 05, 2026, 04:58:15 PMHere is a good used Newell aluminum 150 spool. It is $20 plus $6 for shipping by USPS Ground Advantage with tracking.
Bingo! Thanks, Randy! I will PM you for payment instructions.
Mark
Mark, here's the Newell set that I mentioned in our PM.
Do it! Everyone on this forum who has ever bought anything from Randy will vouch for him. Myself included.
And yes, the sleeve is a must if you intend to fish above about 10# of drag. With that kit and the sleeve you can crank it all the way down with your new carbon drags and probably not have to worry about hardware failures.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 05, 2026, 06:18:01 PMDo it! Everyone on this forum who has ever bought anything from Randy will vouch for him. Myself included.
And yes, the sleeve is a must if you intend to fish above about 10# of drag. With that kit and the sleeve you can crank it all the way down with your new carbon drags and probably not have to worry about hardware failures.
The top of the stock gear sleeve will get rounded off if you wind under heavier load , making the handle arm loose. It is usually the first point of failure under load on the classic Penn reels. On a Squidder (which is about the same size), you will round off the gear sleeve if you are frequently winding at around 4 lbs of load or so. A stainless gear sleeve will help here. Changing the gear sleeves, frames, etc, will not help much in increasing the maximum drag before failure, but switching to greased carbon fiber drag washers will make for a smoother drag which will allow you to fish effectively with a higher drag setting than you would with a stock setup.
I wouldn't fish one of these reels with over mebbe 6 lbs of drag, but that is plenty. People have been catching big fish in the surf on that exact reel model for something like 70 years and counting.
The plastic spools fail from the force of the nylon mono trying to expand back to the original diameter after being wound on the reel under load. Plastic spools are lighter, with less inertia, so they can be better for casting. They also won't corrode in saltwater. One option is to load the plastic spool up all the way with braid which is not so elastic, and less likely to damage the spool. Casting is a bit trickier, but you can get more distance than mono with an educated thumb. Nothing wrong with getting an aluminum spool and loading it with mono, if that is your preference. I wouldn't fish mono in a plastic spool (even with backing) and expect to get a long lifespan out of the spool.
Either Dacron or modern PE braid will work for backing or a full spooling. Dacron packaged for fly line backing would work, but it is the same stuff for a higher price. Beware of old used Dacron. Unlike PE braid, it can get pretty weak over time.
-J
4 pounds stock? Wow. I guess I was thinking jigmaster numbers.
I can tell you that with frame bars, metal spool, steel sleeve, steel main, steel handle blade, and a 5 stack... I was using it a lot closer to 15# with no sign of trouble or excessive wear. I used it to winch in a black tip shark that stood absolutely no chance.
But then I strengthened everything that bears any load. But now that I have a Newell 220 with 5:1 gears I don't really use the surfmaster anymore. Still love the reel though
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 05, 2026, 06:18:01 PMDo it! Everyone on this forum who has ever bought anything from Randy will vouch for him. Myself included.
And yes, the sleeve is a must if you intend to fish above about 10# of drag. With that kit and the sleeve you can crank it all the way down with your new carbon drags and probably not have to worry about hardware failures.
Thank you!
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 05, 2026, 07:55:07 PM4 pounds stock? Wow. I guess I was thinking jigmaster numbers.
I can tell you that with frame bars, metal spool, steel sleeve, steel main, steel handle blade, and a 5 stack... I was using it a lot closer to 15# with no sign of trouble or excessive wear. I used it to winch in a black tip shark that stood absolutely no chance.
But then I strengthened everything that bears any load. But now that I have a Newell 220 with 5:1 gears I don't really use the surfmaster anymore. Still love the reel though
4 lb winding load, not drag. Try dropping a 15 lb downrigger ball off a dock and straight winding it in with a surfmaster (that you don't mind damaging). I don't think that most folk are even strong enough.
For this type of reel design (gear sleeve star drag with helical gears), the reel can usually handle a higher drag setting if the fish is not taking line. The damage is more likely to occur on these reels when the gears are turning.
Once line is going out, the helical gears are transferring a decent amount of the radial load (torque) into axial load (along the shaft). Because the helical tooth face is curved, this eventually drives the gear sleeve (only supported on one side by a pin peened into the bridge plate) off alignment. The main gear angles until just the edge of the tooth is engaging, at which point you shred teeth. Or the ratchet(which is also on the gear sleeve) loses alignment with the dog, and you get failure there.
This can also happen when winding under load, usually at a lower load level than just taking drag. So unless the drag overheats and locks up, we usually trash the reel by winding against the higher load that a higher drag setting enables.
My failures on these type of reels were all rounded gear sleeves and shredded main gears. I have heard of dog failures.
Regarding drag: Like all useful debates, we need to agree on definitions. When we talk about the drag capacity of a reel, it is useful to note whether we are stopping a fish without it taking line, only shorter bursts of taking line, or an extended run.
I expect that a Surfmaster could survive a short run every now and then above the limits that I would personally recommend. It will wear out faster, but may be fine for someone who fishes infrequently. I would expect to see a wreck the first time you tried a 150 lb yellowfin doing a 250 yard high speed run against 15 lbs of drag on a Surfmaster. So I personally would not claim a 15 lb drag capacity for this reel.
-J
Work2Fish, I can't add anything useful to wjat the others have said. I a newbie to these reels, too. I have had better luck buying the reels I find that have Aluminum spools, and swapping parts with other reels if they need help. I found an Aluminum spool Jigmaster on Mercari and a Squidder at a flea market. Keep an eye out when you go to the beach. There are a lot more of these reels in saltwater areas. I've done well at flea markets in Florida and Marketplace in North Carolina.
I just think it's funny that I am also in the Pittsburgh area, primarily target carp and cats with vintage reels, and go surf fishing a bunch. Convetionals and levelwinds work best for my style of carp fishing. I put it in freespool, clicker on. When I get a take I put it in gear.
I'm originaly from O'Hara and Aspinwall. Now I live near Punxsutawney and work around Pittsburgh, Kittanning, and Butler. I fish the Allegheny and tributaries mostly, plus some of the lakes.
Here are some pics of the reel as it came. It is pretty clean! I was going to take it apart to check the current drag washers before ordering carbontex, but I realized I needed to order an Alan Tani Penn wrench first. I also ordered the Newell set from Randy.
When I turn the crank or spin the spool on this reel it is very smooth. I was surprised how smooth it feels, since it has bushings instead of roller bearings.
I can see that the anti-reverse ratchet is brass-colored, so I didn't luck into one with a steel gear sleeve. I'll probably stick with the stock one for now. My search for a steel one led me to Tom's Cortez Conversions site. Wow! There are a lot of beautiful pieces of metal there, but the 98-155 sleeve is out of stock. I also discovered that the stock sleeves are very inexpensive. If one of those gets rounded, does it cause damage to other components?
Mark
Quote from: jurelometer on February 05, 2026, 07:23:39 PMThe top of the stock gear sleeve will get rounded off if you wind under heavier load , making the handle arm loose. It is usually the first point of failure under load on the classic Penn reels. On a Squidder (which is about the same size), you will round off the gear sleeve if you are frequently winding at around 4 lbs of load or so. A stainless gear sleeve will help here.
Thanks for all the info, jurelometer! Sounds like a good argument for the pump and reel technique.
Mark
Quote from: work2fish on February 06, 2026, 12:56:00 AMI also discovered that the stock sleeves are very inexpensive. If one of those gets rounded, does it cause damage to other components?
Mark
No. The flats on the end of the sleeve get rounded off by the hole in the handle arm. Just get a new sleeve and you are good to go.
And you won't round off the sleeve if you don't wind against heavy load- so if you are surf fishing with something like 20 lb mono and keep this in mind, you should be fine. Those of us that push the reels a bit past it limits are the ones that run into trouble.
QuoteThanks for all the info, jurelometer! Sounds like a good argument for the pump and
reel technique.
Exactly.
Nice looking reel!
You can get the stock Penn wrench for less than 2 bucks from Mystic. They also sell the drag washers. If you know anyone that has old Penn reels, they probably have a wrench. All the old Penn star drag reels came with one.
-J
Quote from: bja105 on February 06, 2026, 12:23:31 AMWork2Fish, I can't add anything useful to wjat the others have said. I a newbie to these reels, too. I have had better luck buying the reels I find that have Aluminum spools, and swapping parts with other reels if they need help. I found an Aluminum spool Jigmaster on Mercari and a Squidder at a flea market. Keep an eye out when you go to the beach. There are a lot more of these reels in saltwater areas. I've done well at flea markets in Florida and Marketplace in North Carolina.
I just think it's funny that I am also in the Pittsburgh area, primarily target carp and cats with vintage reels, and go surf fishing a bunch. Convetionals and levelwinds work best for my style of carp fishing. I put it in freespool, clicker on. When I get a take I put it in gear.
I'm originaly from O'Hara and Aspinwall. Now I live near Punxsutawney and work around Pittsburgh, Kittanning, and Butler. I fish the Allegheny and tributaries mostly, plus some of the lakes.
Good to meet you, bja105! Thanks for the tip about reel hunting in saltwater areas. My son and I primarily target carp, buffalo, and catfish at Lake Arthur, the lakes at North Park north of Pittsburgh, the 3 rivers near Pittsburgh, or the Beaver river near Rochester. We use a few spinning reels (my son's) and lots of Ambassadeurs. I love to hear the sound of the clicker when a carp takes a run with the bait!
We only go on surf fishing trips a couple times each year, but I think I would be surf fishing every day if I retired near a beach.
I had been wanting to try a Penn conventional, so when I saw the pair of Surfmasters on the auction site for a low price I jumped on it and ended up with both of them for $47 total after shipping and tax. I didn't even know about the different spools until I did some research after receiving the reels, looking at them, and realizing that one spool was aluminum and the other was plastic.
I'll PM you in the summer. Maybe we could go fishing sometime.
Mark
Quote from: jurelometer on February 06, 2026, 01:10:05 AMThose of us that push the reels a bit past it limits are the ones that run into trouble.
I would love to push a reel past its limits, but I can't seem to catch large enough fish :)
I guess the only time we did so was when my son caught his first blacktip (3-4 ft) on a Penn Fierce II 4000. That version of the Fierce had felt drags, and they were probably already dry before they encountered the shark's runs. When I took the drag out to change to HT100 the bottom felt washer was very thin and hard, didn't even resemble felt anymore.
Mark
Welcome, Mark! The Surfmaster line up has a nice pedigree in fishing history. The 150 is one of my favs, and I built a couple with Newell kits as you just got from our boy Randy (who is a treasure in his own right). The reel is excellent fished in it's limits. If you get bored you can get tail plates cheaply enough (180/100/150/160/200/155) all fit and could be magged for cast control. I put 29S-310 handles from Mystic on my 100 / 150 / 145 / 146 size reels; you will appreciate them.
Your 250 is largely interchangeable with Jigmnaster 500 parts, so many of Tom's goodies (Cortez) will fit that reel.
John
Fill the plastic spool 1/2-2/3 with Dacron or Spectra and top them off with mono and spreading or breaking the spool in a non problem.
Due to the tree taking out our house I can't find the box I put my highly modified Surfmaster reels in, 100,150 and 250N, to show you what can be done to them. I quit using Surfmasters when I got a few Momofil reels due them being the same size but liter. The Monofil 26 is the same size as your Surfmaster 150.
My collection is the size that it is so that I don't need to be "careful" with any of it.
I have a 15# weight. I have 25# dumbbells too. And a few good stiff rods. If I find the time I'll put my money where my mouth is and do a winding load test this weekend to see if anything explodes. Ya know, for science.
Quote from: thorhammer on February 06, 2026, 02:16:12 AMThe reel is excellent fished in it's limits. If you get bored you can get tail plates cheaply enough (180/100/150/160/200/155) all fit and could be magged for cast control. I put 29S-310 handles from Mystic on my 100 / 150 / 145 / 146 size reels; you will appreciate them.
Your 250 is largely interchangeable with Jigmnaster 500 parts, so many of Tom's goodies (Cortez) will fit that reel.
This really is a "rabbit hole," as Jason said. I've kept my Ambassadeurs stock, with the exception of carbontex drag washers, so I will try the other approach with these Penns.
Quote from: Keta on February 06, 2026, 03:05:58 PMFill the plastic spool 1/2-2/3 with Dacron or Spectra and top them off with mono and spreading or breaking the spool in a non problem.
Due to the tree taking out our house I can't find the box I put my highly modified Surfmaster reels in, 100,150 and 250N, to show you what can be done to them. I quit using Surfmasters when I got a few Momofil reels due them being the same size but liter. The Monofil 26 is the same size as your Surfmaster 150.
I ordered the aluminum Newell spool from Randy, but might try braid on the plastic spool. I've never tried braid on a conventional reel (because I'm still a relative beginner and have heard that it is harder to fix birds nests with braid).
I read that the Monofils were designed for monofilament line, but I see that many have the bakelite spools. Did they do something to the plastic spools to make them stronger to handle the mono?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 06, 2026, 03:18:22 PMIf I find the time I'll put my money where my mouth is and do a winding load test this weekend to see if anything explodes. Ya know, for science.
With the steel sleeve or the original one? Would be interesting to see the results!
Mark
The plastic spools of that era are all bakelite. I'd be doing the test with my steel sleeve, I don't foresee the one with a brass sleeve going well. I'd be interested in finding out how long til Tom makes more surfmaster sized sleeves. I'm not seeking to steal any of his business but If it's gonna be a very long time, I think I have a spare steel one that I'm unlikely to ever use, and would sell it without upcharge to someone like you who will use it. Just gotta 1. Verify I have it and 2. Figure out what I paid for it.
Quote from: work2fish on February 06, 2026, 04:51:12 PMI ordered the aluminum Newell spool from Randy, but might try braid on the plastic spool. I've never tried braid on a conventional reel (because I'm still a relative beginner and have heard that it is harder to fix birds nests with braid).
I read that the Monofils were designed for monofilament line, but I see that many have the bakelite spools. Did they do something to the plastic spools to make them stronger to handle the mono?
The Penn historians here can correct me, but I think that the plastic spools were originally intended for casting performance with a trade off in durability. The chrome plated spools would also fail similarly, but at higher loads. If fished within the intended line sizes and loads, plastic spools lasted long enough to be useful. You just didn't use them for stuff like trolling.
Once aluminum spools became common, plastic spools ended up unpopular enough to disappear. I only have one reel with one: a "graphite" spooled Newell, which incidentally is my best casting reel. I fish it with modern braid.
Almost everyone here will tell you that nylon mono is far easier to learn to cast a conventional reel with compared to modern braid.
I f you are just starting out, Lee (Keta) has a good suggestion: First, don't try to cast too far at first. Second, put a little wrap of masking tape on the spool just under you maximum practice distance- this will minimize the big nasty bird's nest.
My advice: Embrace the bird's nest. Once you no longer fear it, you will find that you are progressing quickly. The folk that get left behind are the ones that never lost the fear of a backlash.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 06, 2026, 03:18:22 PMIf I find the time I'll put my money where my mouth is and do a winding load test this weekend to see if anything explodes. Ya know, for science.
My collection is the size that it is so that I don't need to be "careful" with any of it.
I have a 15# weight. I have 25# dumbbells too. And a few good stiff rods. If I find the time I'll put my money where my mouth is and do a winding load test this weekend to see if anything explodes. Ya know, for science.
Team science!
:d
This test is to demonstrate how hard it is to wind at higher loads. The reel is at risk, but probably won't fail in the first 15 ft of winding. If possible, wind without pumping.
To test for failure, you will probably have to do it for awhile to break the reel. I would wear out a stock gear sleeve after about a dozen big yellowtail on a Jigmaster with the drag set to 15-20 lb, so mebbe about 10 lbs of winding load with a longer "power" handle arm .
If you can rail the rod and wind against that full 15 lbs, I would guess a couple hundred feet on average would be enough to start damaging gears, especially with a longer aftermarket handle arm and a gear sleeve that won't fail first.
Come to think of it, you might do a bit better than my Jigmasters, as the Surfmaster has a lower 3:1 gear ratio. Higher gear ratio means more leverage working against you on a star drag. Star drags are really inefficient designs for braking performance. Lever drags don't have to be, even though some of them are.
I have only one surfmaster myself, but it was a gift reel from Sal, so I am not going to sacrifice it for science. Sal actually tested his mods to failure. He found the biggest improvement when he made a custom spacer sleeve that fit snug to the gear sleeve and the metal sleeve pressed into the side plate. This helps prevent the gears sleeve from flexing under load, but requires a break-in period where you keep winding the handle until it turns freely, and the bridge plate needs to be carefully re-fitted during maintenance. I am not sure how well this would wear with long term heavy usage, but it could save your hide if you occasionally need to pull hard.
Typical hotrodding problem. Just like cars. We all like to go for the mods that look the coolest, but sometimes the most important mod is something inconspicuous, taking a bit of work and skill to get right, so fewer people do it. Lots of machined frame and sideplate kits installed out there, but I don't remember seeing anybody do the spacer mod besides Sal.
-J
I've been wanting to take a shot at one, I gotta find any threads he wrote on the matter. But I dimly remember a design a threw out there for an alternate bearing for lever drags that might actually work better for this.
Hmmmmmm creative juices are flowing. Sorry for hijacking the thread.
Also, I know I'm in the minority but I think braid nests are far easier to clear than mono knots. I can far more clearly see and visually follow the individual strands. Knock on wood I've had very few braid bird nests that I couldn't clear. Definitely can't say the same for my time playing with mono. But that's just me. I agree with all the rest of the advice above as it relates to learning to cast.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 06, 2026, 05:11:19 PMI'd be interested in finding out how long til Tom makes more surfmaster sized sleeves. I'm not seeking to steal any of his business but If it's gonna be a very long time, I think I have a spare steel one that I'm unlikely to ever use, and would sell it without upcharge to someone like you who will use it. Just gotta 1. Verify I have it and 2. Figure out what I paid for it.
I'm also wondering when Tom might have them back in stock. I'm not sure if my 150 has the wide threads or narrow threads, so I might need the narrow-threaded drag star as well.
If you do find that you have an extra one that you want to sell let me know.
Mark
Quote from: work2fish on February 06, 2026, 09:32:15 PMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 06, 2026, 05:11:19 PMI'd be interested in finding out how long til Tom makes more surfmaster sized sleeves. I'm not seeking to steal any of his business but If it's gonna be a very long time, I think I have a spare steel one that I'm unlikely to ever use, and would sell it without upcharge to someone like you who will use it. Just gotta 1. Verify I have it and 2. Figure out what I paid for it.
I'm also wondering when Tom might have them back in stock. I'm not sure if my 150 has the wide threads or narrow threads, so I might need the narrow-threaded drag star as well.
If you do find that you have an extra one that you want to sell let me know.
Mark
Mark, I might be wrong, but I don't think that anyone ever made the 150 sleeve in narrow thread. Your parts will be on their way today. I put a Penn wrench in the box for you, but you should find one of Alan's wrenches if you can. They are much easier to use.
Thanks again for your business,
Randy
Quote from: work2fish on February 06, 2026, 04:51:12 PMI read that the Monofils were designed for monofilament line, but I see that many have the bakelite spools. Did they do something to the plastic spools to make them stronger to handle the mono?
I put aluminum 29L-100 and 29L-150 spools on mine.
OK. Here we go... my first Penn conventional. I've received the Newell spool, frame bars, and foot from Randy (Thanks, Randy!) and the carbon drag washers from smoothdrag. Now I will attempt to clean and lubricate the reel and install the new components.
I will post again in a few hours when I will either be finished, or will have run into an issue that I need help with ;)
What is the advantage of the Newell foot? It is much smaller than the stock foot.
Mark
I got the frame together OK, but I'm having trouble getting the pin out of the gear sleeve. The only tool I have to push it is a small flimsy screwdriver. I'll try some oil and heat, but may just leave the sleeve on there. It is spinning very smoothly on the post.
Is the tiny hole at the bottom of the gear sleeve an oil port?
The anti-reverse dog and a flat v-shaped spring also came out before I could see how they went in. I have a schematic, so hopefully I will be able to figure out how to get it back together.
The advantage of the Newell base is that it is rigid (as compared to the stock Penn stamped brass base), and in conjunction with the Newell bars, reduces the torquing under load, keeping the sideplates in parallel alignment, reducing the binding effect on the spool and drive train.
I would guess that this isn't as much of an issue with lighter line in a smaller reel like the 150, as compared to a Jigmaster or larger with 30lb.+ line and heavier drag settings, but the reel looks cooler with the Newell kit, even if the reel isn't subjected to the forces that would fully test the increased rigidity provided.
I got it back together, with the help of some Youtube videos. I was trying to put the anti-reverse dog on the plastic post on the sideplate. I learned from the video that the dog actually goes on one of the sideplate screws, and the post on the sideplate holds the flat dog spring.
I couldn't get the pin out of the gear sleeve. The gear sleeve was spinning very smoothly, so I left well enough alone and didn't take the pin out. For future reference, is there a good tool to use to get these pins out?
There was some dried grease, I originally thought, on some of the metal drag washers, but it turned out to be discoloration from corrosion. They feel smooth enough, though. The bottom of the main gear also had some corrosion, and the corroded spots are a bit rough. I'm trying to picture how the drag works. Does the main gear rotate against the smaller washer that is under it? That could either smooth out the corrosion on the bottom of the main gear or eventually damage the carbon washer. Might investigate a new gear set.
Now it is time to spool it up and practice casting. I'm thinking of using 25 lb test mono. Any suggestions for how many turns of the handle to get the line from one side of the spool to the other when I am guiding it with my thumb?
The photos aren't very good because it is dark here now, and the lighting in my workspace is harsh.
Mark
Quote from: Vintage Offshore Tackle on February 15, 2026, 11:20:49 PMThe advantage of the Newell base is that it is rigid (as compared to the stock Penn stamped brass base), and in conjunction with the Newell bars, reduces the torquing under load, keeping the sideplates in parallel alignment, reducing the binding effect on the spool and drive train.
Thanks, Randy! This reel will probably have catfish and carp duty, as well as occasional surf fishing, so the frame will be ready if I ever hook something large in the surf.
I hope that you get to put it to the test soon Mark!
Quote from: Vintage Offshore Tackle on February 16, 2026, 01:41:48 AMI hope that you get to put it to the test soon Mark!
I'll be taking it out to practice casting this week, and then in early April my son and I are going on a trip to South Carolina (Lake Wylie) for catfish, carp, and buffalo. I hope to use this reel a lot on that trip.
Another question... I replaced the reddish-colored hard washer that was under the main gear with a carbontex washer of the same size. It came with my kit from smoothdrag. Is it ok to replace that hard washer with carbontex?
Quote from: work2fish on February 16, 2026, 12:24:46 AMI couldn't get the pin out of the gear sleeve. The gear sleeve was spinning very smoothly, so I left well enough alone and didn't take the pin out. For future reference, is there a good tool to use to get these pins out?
A punch is the appropriate tool, but a nail with a slightly smaller diameter than the pin will work. Just grind the point off, so that you will have a flat end.
QuoteThere was some dried grease, I originally thought, on some of the metal drag washers, but it turned out to be discoloration from corrosion. They feel smooth enough, though. The bottom of the main gear also had some corrosion, and the corroded spots are a bit rough. I'm trying to picture how the drag works. Does the main gear rotate against the smaller washer that is under it? That could either smooth out the corrosion on the bottom of the main gear or eventually damage the carbon washer. Might investigate a new gear set.
The dog prevents the gear sleeve and keyed washers from turning backwards, so the main gear and eared washers will turn backwards when the drag slips. The fiber drag washers and the under gear washer may or may not turn. They will stick to the mating surface with the higher coefficient of friction, and slide against the other.
In terms of the undergear washer, it serves primarily as a thrust bearing, providing a flat sliding surface that helps keep the main gear in alignment. Some folk here replace it with a fiber drag washer, believing that they will gain more in braking i than they will lose in thrust bearing performance. There are also some alternative materials that sort of split the difference, but with other drawbacks. It was a long subject of debate here. The stock undergear washer is probably the most trouble-free. All options will probably work ok for your situation.
If you go with a fiber drag washer for the undergear, the diameter has to be small enough that the dog can't reach it, otherwise it can get shredded under load.
You do want smooth surfaces on the bottom face of the main gear and both faces of the metal drag washers. You can use water to stick some wet dry sandpaper to a piece of window glass and sand down any damage from corrosion if necessary. Slide the parts flat against the paper. The glass is flat enough to keep the parts true. Start with no more than 220 grit, and go at least to 400.
You don't need to get the inside face of the main gear smooth as long as the washer on the other side is smooth. The opposing metal washer face will end up being the sliding surface.
Or replacement drag washers and a yoke are pretty cheap if you don't want to spend the time sanding. They do look a little rough as-is.
QuoteNow it is time to spool it up and practice casting. I'm thinking of using 25 lb test mono. Any suggestions for how many turns of the handle to get the line from one side of the spool to the other when I am guiding it with my thumb?
When you first start filling the spool, make sure that the wraps are tight and snug to the wrap next to them. Once you get further into the fill, the wraps should be mebbe around twice the line diameter apart at most, to help prevent backlashes. The exact amount isn't too important. What is important is to always maintain tension when winding, even if it means pinching the line with your guiding thumb and index finger, and also keeping as flat a line lay as possible with no high spots building up. It will become second nature in short time.
-J
Quote from: work2fish on February 16, 2026, 02:28:38 AMAnother question... I replaced the reddish-colored hard washer that was under the main gear with a carbontex washer of the same size. It came with my kit from smoothdrag. Is it ok to replace that hard washer with carbontex?
Yes.
Quote from: Keta on February 16, 2026, 04:53:27 PMQuote from: work2fish on February 16, 2026, 02:28:38 AMAnother question... I replaced the reddish-colored hard washer that was under the main gear with a carbontex washer of the same size. It came with my kit from smoothdrag. Is it ok to replace that hard washer with carbontex?
Yes.
Quote from: jurelometer on February 16, 2026, 04:01:04 AMIn terms of the undergear washer, it serves primarily as a thrust bearing, providing a flat sliding surface that helps keep the main gear in alignment. Some folk here replace it with a fiber drag washer, believing that they will gain more in braking than they will lose in thrust bearing performance. There are also some alternative materials that sort of split the difference, but with other drawbacks. It was a long subject of debate here. The stock undergear washer is probably the most trouble-free. All options will probably work ok for your situation.
If you go with a fiber drag washer for the undergear, the diameter has to be small enough that the dog can't reach it, otherwise it can get shredded under load.
There are experienced folk here with strong opinions from both sides of the CF undergear washer debate. To avoid rehashing the debate- here is a summary from another thread:
https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,27295.msg313604.html#msg313604 (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,27295.msg313604.html#msg313604)
I still stand by the points in that post, other than concerns about creep in Delrin and Rulon, which is not an issue, especially at the clamping loads in a star drag reel. The whole thread is worth a read IMHO.
-J
Thanks for the link to that thread discussing the under-gear washer, jurelometer! I've decided that I need to start reading through the old threads, starting with the stickies. Several times I've Googled something that I was wondering about, and the Google search brought me right back to a thread here at alantani.com.
The carbontex for under the gear was part of the set from smoothdrag. It is the same size as the original hard thrust washer. I'm going to try it for now. The hard washer that was originally under the gear was broken.
Since I put the reel back together my brain has been spinning around trying to understand how the drag works. I actually woke up at 5:30 AM and couldn't get back to sleep because I kept thinking about it ::)
I can see that the handle turns the gear sleeve (and the ratchet), as well as the keyed metal washers. Then, the keyed washers and the ratchet put friction on the carbontex discs. The carbontex discs, in turn, put friction on both sides of the main gear (when carbontex is used under the main gear) and on both sides of the eared metal washers, which translates to the main gear through the ears. The main gear turns the pinion, which turns the spool. When line pulls out I suppose that whichever surface has the least friction will release first. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what would cause several of the surfaces to release at the same time. I'm guessing it involves calculus :(
From a practical standpoint, after I put line on the spool I will put the reel on a rod and have my son be the "fish" to see how smooth the drag is at various levels.
Mark
Quote from: work2fish on February 16, 2026, 07:42:27 PMThanks for the link to that thread discussing the under-gear washer, jurelometer! I've decided that I need to start reading through the old threads, starting with the stickies. Several times I've Googled something that I was wondering about, and the Google search brought me right back to a thread here at alantani.com.
The carbontex for under the gear was part of the set from smoothdrag. It is the same size as the original hard thrust washer. I'm going to try it for now. The hard washer that was originally under the gear was broken.
Since I put the reel back together my brain has been spinning around trying to understand how the drag works. I actually woke up at 5:30 AM and couldn't get back to sleep because I kept thinking about it ::)
I can see that the handle turns the gear sleeve (and the ratchet), as well as the keyed metal washers. Then, the keyed washers and the ratchet put friction on the carbontex discs. The carbontex discs, in turn, put friction on both sides of the main gear (when carbontex is used under the main gear) and on both sides of the eared metal washers, which translates to the main gear through the ears. The main gear turns the pinion, which turns the spool. When line pulls out I suppose that whichever surface has the least friction will release first. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what would cause several of the surfaces to release at the same time. I'm guessing it involves calculus :(
From a practical standpoint, after I put line on the spool I will put the reel on a rod and have my son be the "fish" to see how smooth the drag is at various levels.
Mark
No calculus involved. You have to get slippage for every fiber drag washer since each metal washer is locked to either the gear sleeve or the gear. What is unknown is which surface the drag washer will stick to, and which it will slide on. The key thing to remember is that the more surfaces sliding for a given clamping load, the more braking work per revolution.
Some members here customize the drag by using more/thinner metal and fiber washers in the stack, providing the same amount of drag work for less clamping load, which helps to make the drag smoother, but probably doesn't change maximum capacity that much as something else is going to break first (not a popular opinion here). Usually when star drag washers fail, it is toward the top (handle side) of the stack, which suggests that the load doesn't transfer completely through the stack. As you add more/thinner washers, eventually you will be doing more harm than good. There are premade custom stacks available. I don't use them, so can't provide firsthand experience.
There are also more complex customizations that use inserts or cutouts ground into to the main gear pocket that allow you to use eared fiber washers and only keyed metal washers- this allows you to get two sliding surfaces per fiber washer, but requires that the eared fiber washers be reasonably thick so that the ears don't get sheared off. Some of the kits that used eared fiber washers that were also thin had issues.
In terms of using the CF under the main gear, most of the failures reported here were with larger reels at high drag settings. The setup you are using is popular here, and there doesn't seem to be many complaints. I wouldn't worry.
From a mechanical engineering standpoint, it is not a nice way to treat your gears, but real world experience seems to indicate that folks here are generally getting away with it just fine. If it was my reel and I wanted the ideal option, I would go with Rulon, but this is probably going to require cutting a custom part. I don't think that anyone is making these.
-J
Dave's answer is better than mine, but I went thru the effort of typing it so dang it I'm gonna post it. Maybe an alternatively worded explanation might help. Or not. If I confuse things I apologize
Think of a reel with only one drag washer, for example an early Shimano bantam. The drag disc is glued to the main gear, and there's a metal disc keyed to the shaft. When the main gear is spinning as line is being pulled out by a fish, the shaft and metal disc stay still, and so friction is generated by the rubbing. Now add a layer. There's already something keyed to she shaft, namely the top of the keyed disc. But you need something to move with the main. So that's why the next metal disc gets ears, so it moves when the main gear moves. You can keep going, I've seen some pretty tall stacks.
(assuming a properly functioning reel) It's worth considering that 50% of the surfaces move, or none move. There's no scenario with one disc moving while the others are stationary.
The keyed discs move with the shaft. The eared discs move with the main gear. One side or the other of the carbon disc will slip. Maybe both can, that's calculus, and requires 2 nearly perfectly smooth metal surfaces. But in general only one side of each carbon disc will slip, and we mere mortals can picture it.
There are setups where all the carbon disc have ears, and the metal discs are all keyed. In that case both sides of the drag disc are active. And the crazy high drag numbers we see from those setups speak for themselves. It's the same basic concept, but the eared metal discs and the carbon discs are combined into the same entity. I hope that last paragraph didn't confuse things more.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 16, 2026, 08:51:14 PMDave's answer is better than mine, but I went thru the effort of typing it so dang it I'm gonna post it. Maybe an alternatively worded explanation might help. Or not. If I confuse things I apologize
I don't know about better - sometimes my explanations are too detailed. Different explanations work better for different people.
QuoteThe keyed discs move with the shaft. The eared discs move with the main gear. One side or the other of the carbon disc will slip. Maybe both can, that's calculus, and requires 2 nearly perfectly smooth metal surfaces. But in general only one side of each carbon disc will slip, and we mere mortals can picture it.
I like the first part here. But no calculus involved. Each pair of mating surfaces will have a static and kinetic coefficient of friction (relative stickiness). Only one side at a time will slide and it will be the side with the lower CoF. This can change during operation, but seems a bit unlikely even if both sides are very close in overall CoF, since static is always going to be higher than kinetic. Once one side is slipping (kinetic), it is going to continue being the lower CoF side compared to the non sliding (static) surface pair on the other side.
See what I mean about getting too detailed :)
-J
Thanks for all the information on drags! I appreciate the detailed explanations!
This all seems to make perfect sense. But, when the drag is disassembled you never find one side of the drag washer more worn or more slick than the other side. They wear equally on both sides. So, the side of the drag washer that is slipping must somehow change back and forth. What would make this happen? What would make the slipping slick side of the drag washer all of a sudden become the side that grips the metal washer better? I suspect that both sides of the drag washer must have been slipping all along.
Quote from: oc1 on February 17, 2026, 05:52:34 AMWhat would make the slipping slick side of the drag washer all of a sudden become the side that grips the metal washer?
That's gonna keep me up at night.
Shot in the dark: the grease wears off. Now the other side is more slick. I dunno.
Me neither.
Quote from: oc1 on February 17, 2026, 05:52:34 AMThis all seems to make perfect sense. But, when the drag is disassembled you never find one side of the drag washer more worn or more slick than the other side. They wear equally on both sides. So, the side of the drag washer that is slipping must somehow change back and forth. What would make this happen? What would make the slipping slick side of the drag washer all of a sudden become the side that grips the metal washer better? I suspect that both sides of the drag washer must have been slipping all along.
Interesting...
Both sides cannot slide at the same time as the higher CoF side will not release due to...the higher C0F. Two sticky sides, the stickier side will hold. The holding side will also have an an increased advantage now due to the static CoF being higher than the kinetic C0F for a material pair.
One possible cause for switching: debris buildup on the slipping side increasing the CoF. Another is drag grease being displaced on the slipping side. There are probably others.
This part is just my speculation: For the reasons mentioned earlier, I am skeptical that it normally goes back and forth continuously during a run, but once the drag stops, the non-slipping side might now have the lower static CoF and become the slipping side. But it is pretty tough to see what is going on with a live drag, so you never know.
-J
Maybe the gripping gets hot.
Quote from: oc1 on February 17, 2026, 08:51:04 AMMaybe the gripping gets hot.
CF composite does act a bit as an insulator, so I guess it is possible that one side gets a bit hotter than the other. But heat is supposed to decrease the CoF of dry carbon fiber drag washers, according to the Penn marketing material for their CF material. And then if the drag is lubed, the grease viscosity will decrease with heat, further lowering the CoF. Thermal expansion is going to affect both sides more or less evenly.
Tribology is so complicated. I think the exact cause(s) will remain a mystery. But since the CoFs on both sides will typically be very close, it only takes a small change to swap sliding surfaces. The higher COF side will hold, even if the difference is quite small.
-J
So earlier in this thread we talked about braid vs mono for ratnests. Today I created my new personal best (worst) ratnest of all time. A cast with a lot of momentum saw the lure catch a low hanging branch of the tree I was under. And i don't know why but my brain froze. It took me a good second or two to realize what was happening and stop the spinning spool. I tell ya, some of those loops were 3' long and rolled over themselves. It was a good 40' of line involved. I don't know how it was possible.
It took about 10 minutes. And I almost gave up. But I defeated it. I picked it clean and didn't have to cut any line.
Good work solving that one, Jason!
Haa every mans night mare, keep that brain rolling man, cheers Don.
I've posted this in the old reels in action thread, https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,40892.0.html, but I also want to post it here to complete the story of this Surfmaster 150's revival. My first fish caught on it was a nice carp.
For now it is mounted on an 8 ft MH Eagle Claw Cat Claw rod, which is a cheap fiberglass catfish rod. I can cast it pretty well without much backlashing, but I'm not casting very far yet, and I need to keep my thumb on the line or the side of the spool for the whole cast to prevent backlashes. I will probably try it on a surf rod next and try to see if I can cast a bit farther. I'm also wondering if I should put grease in the bushings instead of ReelX. I will always be casting 2 oz or more with this reel.
Thumbing the line on evenly as I reel the line back in is becoming second nature already.
Awesome reel and nice carp, congrats.